Did Han shoot first?

fxmatt

Just wanted to shared a tidbit from a Heroescon panel I attended on Star Wars. Jason Aaron was talking about how what he is writing is now cannon and approved by Lucasfilm / Disney. This got me thinking to how Jason is perceiving Han's motivations and backstory, is he a scoundrel or was he just defending himself? So I asked him, did Han indeed shoot first? His response "No Comment....are you trying to get me fired?" So the debate continues.

David_D

fxmatt said:

Just wanted to shared a tidbit from a Heroescon panel I attended on Star Wars. Jason Aaron was talking about how what he is writing is now cannon and approved by Lucasfilm / Disney. This got me thinking to how Jason is perceiving Han's motivations and backstory, is he a scoundrel or was he just defending himself? So I asked him, did Han indeed shoot first? His response "No Comment....are you trying to get me fired?" So the debate continues.

That's great. We actually showed Star Wars to our oldest daughter this past weekend. My wife has stronger feelings about the Special Editions than I do, but we ended up borrowing the Widescreen Limited Edition release DVDs from a friend, that has the laserdisc transfers on the bonus discs, just so that Han shot first (and so that there weren't any of the other changes). She is a purist that way, and I wasn't getting in the way!

nweathington

The way I see it, Han knows Greedo, knows how he operates, and knows he's going to try to kill him there at the table. And he was right. It's preemptive self-defense. Is he a scoundrel? Yes, but he has limits. Was he just defending himself? That's the way he looks at it. Again, that's just how I think about it. I prefer it to be somewhat ambiguous.

WetRats

nweathington said:

The way I see it, Han knows Greedo, knows how he operates, and knows he's going to try to kill him there at the table. And he was right. It's preemptive self-defense. Is he a scoundrel? Yes, but he has limits. Was he just defending himself? That's the way he looks at it. Again, that's just how I think about it. I prefer it to be somewhat ambiguous.

Greedo declared his intent to kill Han.

Greedo had his blaster pointed at Han

Han was completely justified in surreptitiously drawing his blaster and shooting Greedo through the table.

And he apologized for the mess and overtipped the cantina's bartender.

Scoundrel-schmoundrel. It was self-defense. Case closed.

Torchsong

It's a "wretched hive of scum and villainy!"

Greedo's lucky the Hammerhead guy didn't shoot him. :)

kiwijase

Let's not forget that it was also just a totally badass thing for Han to do. That's very important to remember folks.

RepoMan

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jun/10/star-wars-chewbacca-greedo-han-solo

playdohsrepublic

I always liked the idea that he was a scoundrel, with self interest as his primary motivation. Before the Death Star assault he takes the money and abandons these people he's just been through this crazy thing with. That scene and the moment of redemption at the end work so much better if he's portrayed as someone who doesn't place very much value in the lives of others.

I think Lucas got confused when making the SE's and thought Han is a hero and heroes don't shoot first. Han's story is about how he becomes a hero and then in Empire how when his past catches up with him, he has changed so much that instead of being the guy who shoots first, he sacrifices himself for his friends.

(Also, this is why he should have died at the end of Empire. He's an entirely extraneous character in Jedi, almost a prop)

bralinator

Remember on Bespin, when Han and Leia and Chewie were headed to dinner with Lando? As soon as they arrived at the dinner suite, Lando said he'd just made a deal with the Empire and opened the doors to reveal Darth Vader at the head of the table. The first thing Han did was whip out his blaster and start shooting.

That's what Han does.

Lucas got confused. I hope this isn't an indication that Disney sides with George on this salient point.

popestu

Han shot first.

We all saw it.

Everything else is moot.

I do not expect anyone else to comment on this thread.

@David_D , lock this down.

batlaw

Han shot first. In that scenario he was right and justified in doing so. Any argument that he was not, or that doing so somehow made him a "bad guy" is pure ignorant nonsense.

bralinator

George Lucas recently told The Washington Post that he stands by his alteration of the scene, giving Greedo a moment to fire before Han.

Explaining his thought process, he said, “Han Solo was going to marry Leia, and you look back and say, ‘Should he be a cold-blooded killer? … I was thinking mythologically — should he be a cowboy, should he be John Wayne? And I said, ‘Yeah, he should be John Wayne.’ And when you’re John Wayne, you don’t shoot people [first] — you let them have the first shot. It’s a mythological reality that we hope our society pays attention to.”

Ugh.
Full story here: https://washingtonpost.com/

So pleased to know that JJ Abrams is one of the faithful who believe Han shot first. There is hope for this new franchise.

Mr_Cosmic

Han was a pirate..a scoundrel. Someone who'd kill for the easy way out. That's part of what made his arc so great. Han's redemption was a lot more interesting befor Lucus messed with the Greedo scene.

bralinator

bralinator said:

‘Should he be a cold-blooded killer? … I was thinking mythologically — should he be a cowboy, should he be John Wayne? And I said, ‘Yeah, he should be John Wayne.’ And when you’re John Wayne, you don’t shoot people [first] — you let them have the first shot. It’s a mythological reality that we hope our society pays attention to.”

This entire quote is so messed up. It is pretty clear that George Lucas's pacifism has clouded his judgement when it comes to good writing.

If Han didn't shoot Greedo first, why did he begin shooting Darth Vader first on Bespin? Both were cold-blooded killers...

krustycook

Mr_Cosmic said:

Han was a pirate..a scoundrel. Someone who'd kill for the easy way out. That's part of what made his arch so great. Han's redemption was a lot more interesting befor Lucus messed with the Greedo scene.

Very well put.

nweathington

krustycook said:

Mr_Cosmic said:

Han was a pirate..a scoundrel. Someone who'd kill for the easy way out. That's part of what made his arch so great. Han's redemption was a lot more interesting befor Lucus messed with the Greedo scene.

Very well put.

I don't agree with the “easy way out” part. I think he had to feel like there were no other options for getting out unscathed before pulling the trigger, but once he made that decision, he had no qualms about doing so.

He was a runner at the point when we meet him. He preferred to avoid confrontation altogether.

Torchsong

You people are all ignoring that in Episode I, one of Anakin's friends says Greedo's mouth is going to get him in trouble somed-

krustycook

nweathington said:

krustycook said:

Mr_Cosmic said:

Han was a pirate..a scoundrel. Someone who'd kill for the easy way out. That's part of what made his arch so great. Han's redemption was a lot more interesting befor Lucus messed with the Greedo scene.

Very well put.

I don't agree with the “easy way out” part. I think he had to feel like there were no other options for getting out unscathed before pulling the trigger, but once he made that decision, he had no qualms about doing so.

He was a runner at the point when we meet him. He preferred to avoid confrontation altogether.

That's fair as well. I was referring more to the part about it tying into the redemption arc, which is a great reason for keeping it.

jaydee74

After all of these years, I wished it mattered to me. I like the fact that Han shot first but the revised version of the movie doesn't ruin the entire movie for me. I can still enjoy A New Hope whether Han shoots first or not.

abstractgeek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjpfp2w0r0

DAR

jaydee74 said:

After all of these years, I wished it mattered to me. I like the fact that Han shot first but the revised version of the movie doesn't ruin the entire movie for me. I can still enjoy A New Hope whether Han shoots first or not.

That sums up my feelings too.

kiwijase

Who shot first? It was the camera man wasn't it?

Mihawk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bsb9ZTmbSKQ

Star Wars Honest Trailer pretty funny.

playdohsrepublic

CBR's Movie Legends just addressed this and pointed out that in the last two revisions of the script Han,definitely, no question, is depicted as shooting first. So Lucas changed his mind. He seems to think that everyone wants Han to be a bloodthirsty killer (which is ridiculous, because I never met anyone who thought Han was going around the Galaxy murdering anyone he could find, I just thought it just made him an outlaw type), but what we all really want is a character arc where an amoral badass becomes a good guy, who's still a bad ass. Retroactively making him more decent undermines the impact of his transformation.

David_D

It is always hard to argue a counter-factual, as I grew up with a Han that shot first, so it is hard for me to really parse out how much my first impression of him, or the arc of who he becomes in the movies, would be that affected by his shooting next instead of first.

That said, even if you revise the shooting, he remains a self-interested criminal, with truly monstrous clients like Jabba, at a time when the galaxy needs heroes and upstanders, not guys whose interest in freedom stops at the line of their own skin (and, perhaps, the fur of his one friend). To be Chaotic Neutral at a time when the galaxy needs you to be Chaotic Good still leaves him with a big arc to play out.

I don't think the dramatic character question of Han is whether or not he is willing to be violent. Especially in a story when you barely notice when characters, including the good guys, kill. (I feel like that is a kind of grim trivia question-- who is the first man that our young hero, Luke, KILLS in this movie? It might take you a minute. Because that is the world they are in).

I think the bigger arc for Han is self-interest vs. sacrifice and risk taking for the good of others. It is the journey from 'what's in it for me?' to coming back into that Darth Star fight. Or, later, being the person that actually volunteers himself for the dangerous thing, and is now inspiring such bravery in others-- being the only one to go out into the snow to save Luke, when others have declared him lost; volunteering for the Endor mission. Lending, and potentially sacrificing his beloved ship to the cause of attacking the second Death Star. And, even, telling Leia that if she really loves and wants to be with Luke, he will step aside. To me, THOSE are the beats along the journey of his character that really matter.

I don't think his shooting Greedo after Greedo shoots really impacts that journey all that much. Because the journey is not about his relationship to violence. It is about his relationship to heroism and selflessness (and, to be fair, he had already drawn under the table... it is not like the revised version makes it seem like he was looking for a diplomatic solution THAT hard).

That said, do I think Lucas needed to change it? No. Because, again, there is so many other times that heroes in the movie kill when they might not have had to.

But, also, they are his movies. (Or, at least, they were when he made these changes). So, as far as I am concerned, they are his to revise.

[We remain a Han Shoots First household though, when it comes to our oldest daughter watching the movies. Because I know better than to try to argue the Special Editions with my wife!]

krustycook

I can only speak for myself. If someone is pointing a gun at me and indicates he's going to take me dead or alive, that is an imminent threat and I have the right to defend myself. Greedo is not law enforcement.

Han Solo: Over my dead body!
Greedo: That's the idea... I've been looking forward to this for a long time.

Maybe he'd have paid Greedo off if he had the money (maybe not), but given the situation, it's hard to look at Han as a bad guy for basically keeping himself alive.

jaydee74

JJ Abrahams and John Boyega say yes:
http://www.newsarama.com/27042-boyega-and-abrams-han-shot-first.html

batlaw

The altering of the scene, the subsequent altering of the character, the motivation behind it all and the alteration itself is all so incredibly stupid it hurts my head and heart.

JaxUr

Forget shooting Greedo, when did Han grow the groovy beard?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMW4Ad8fIF4

jaydee74

...what in the holy hell is that?

David_D

jaydee74 said:

...what in the holy hell is that?

Look. @jaydee74 , you have to cut them some slack. Our pornography will be misunderstood by future generations, too.