Liked it a lot. I ignored almost all of the promotion except the trailers. The one gripe I have is just how little of Luke there was. He was the number one thing I wanted. As it became clear he wasn't going to be in it much, I was ok with it. But, the tease they gave us was just too much.
The tease you're talking about was shown to us in the first teaser trailer, right? Let's talk about that segment/scenes/vision either way... First, was that part of it future or past? Same for the Knights of Ren shot? With R2 there seems like it would be future, as R2 was with the Republic/Resistance. And Reyand Chewie took R2 with them to Luke's hideaway plant/island.
I think it was the past. We were seeing the Knights of Ren just after slaughtering their fellow "Padawans." Luke and R2 amongst embers and ashes could be them viewing the aftermath. Shortly after he leaves R2 with the Resistance. I'm sure Luke had some "Force Sight" that told him they'd need him in the future so he instructed R2 to be dormant until a certain time. I'd like to read the book to see how they cover this stuff.
I'm listening to the audiobook in my travels this weekend. That is the section I am most interested to hear.
Let us know what you discover. I'm thinking it's one of two possibilities. Either Luke turned him on, sensing the pain Leia felt from the death of Han Solo, so he decides it’s time to let his sister know where he is. Or R2-D2 was programmed to come back online if/when Rey showed up.
My other complaint is that Rey's character comes off as a bit of a 'Mary Sue' (an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities as the personification of wish-fulfillment.) She immediately knows how to fly the Falcon as good as, or maybe even better than, Han Solo the very first time she gets in the cockpit?! She can take on Kylo Ren the first time she fires up a light saber? It stretched beyond the limits of credibility for me and took me out of the story unnecessarily, and yes, I realize I'm discussing fantasy science-fiction here.
Someone must have been following Twitter trends this weekend.
My other complaint is that Rey's character comes off as a bit of a 'Mary Sue' (an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities as the personification of wish-fulfillment.) She immediately knows how to fly the Falcon as good as, or maybe even better than, Han Solo the very first time she gets in the cockpit?! She can take on Kylo Ren the first time she fires up a light saber? It stretched beyond the limits of credibility for me and took me out of the story unnecessarily, and yes, I realize I'm discussing fantasy science-fiction here.
Someone must have been following Twitter trends this weekend.
M
Actually I tried to stay away. My brother said on Instagram he got the twist spoiled by some random picture comment. A poster, on a completely non-Star Wars related image, wrote
"nice pic. Han Solo dies in the new Star Wars movie."
I think I dodged that bullet more than once, but I did see the Mary Sue reference on Rotten Tomatoes when I went to see how the film was doing.
I could've easily said she was a Mary Stu or Gary Stu, it's been a common trope for years. I think it perfectly defines the character, at least for this film. Do you disagree or have you still not seen it?
My other complaint is that Rey's character comes off as a bit of a 'Mary Sue' (an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities as the personification of wish-fulfillment.) She immediately knows how to fly the Falcon as good as, or maybe even better than, Han Solo the very first time she gets in the cockpit?! She can take on Kylo Ren the first time she fires up a light saber? It stretched beyond the limits of credibility for me and took me out of the story unnecessarily, and yes, I realize I'm discussing fantasy science-fiction here.
Someone must have been following Twitter trends this weekend.
M
Actually I tried to stay away. My brother said on Instagram he got the twist spoiled by some random picture comment. A poster, on a completely non-Star Wars related image, wrote
"nice pic. Han Solo dies in the new Star Wars movie."
I think I dodged that bullet more than once, but I did see the Mary Sue reference on Rotten Tomatoes when I went to see how the film was doing.
I could've easily said she was a Mary Stu or Gary Stu, it's been a common trope for years. I think it perfectly defines the character, at least for this film. Do you disagree or have you still not seen it?
The hashtag #MarySue was trending. Mark Waid was justifying Kent as a Mary Sue when he first appeared in comics.
There's a 9am showing on Christmas Eve I'm shooting for to see it.
What the hell is a "Mary sue"? Never heard that before. I had the death spoiled for me too randomly on Facebook. But the death itself wasn't much of a shocker to me. Only the particulars. I was also pulled out of the movie by Rey's shocking aptitude for everything. They overdid it for me with her successful use of the mind trick to escape. It was compounded and made worse by the fight w/ Ren. It's made more annoying because those bits could've been easily handled better / differently and avoided the problem.
I don't see Rey as flawless. When first confronted with the force, she runs out of the room. Scared to death.
As for her apparent force abilities, I chalk it up to this. Before the prequels, we didn't have any sense that a Jedi needed to be trained for twenty years before they went out on their own. The first time we see a leap of understanding, of learning, is when Luke is on the Falcon trying to dodge little laser blasts.
He's basically trying to guess all on his own and failing, until Obi-Wan tells him to feel the force around him. Then, all of the sudden he blocks three blasts, blind folded. Then something similar happens on the trench run. Obi-Wan doesn't show him anything, not one single thing. Doesn't demonstrate anything. Only tells him to reach out and feel it
Rey's heard stories of the force, so she's not 100% ignorant like Luke was. She has a powerful vision. Perhaps she was a student of Luke's that he hid because all the others got murdered. Or, maybe she's his daughter like many think ( I hope not)
Indont have a problem with her learning to reach out her senses without Obi-Wan telling her to do so a couple times.
She's not that perfect. She shows flaws. She displays some force ability. I'm not going to get bent out of shape about that when we clearly don't know her back story.
Is she a Mary Sue? Does she really fly the Falcon that great at first? Did you see how many times that ship crashed into the sand before she got the hang of it? The ship didn't look all that graceful at first but then she got the hang of it. When Han gives her the gun, she doesn't even check to see if the safety is off. She learns and we see her evolve. She handles herself really well with that staff so using the lightsaber isn't a huge stretch in my opinion. She's complex and she's interesting and so she learns things quickly. Doesn't make her a Mary Sue. It makes her interesting.
I was also pulled out of the movie by Rey's shocking aptitude for everything. They overdid it for me with her successful use of the mind trick to escape. It was compounded and made worse by the fight w/ Ren. It's made more annoying because those bits could've been easily handled better / differently and avoided the problem.
You basically answered your own question. She was able to excel at everything she tried and she got to hang out and be accepted by the heroes of the saga. Google "Mary Sue" for further confirmation.
You will see that she doesn't need to be considered "flawless" but Rey certainly fits the "Mary Sue" description to a 'T'
I don't see Rey as flawless. When first confronted with the force, she runs out of the room. Scared to death.
As for her apparent force abilities, I chalk it up to this. Before the prequels, we didn't have any sense that a Jedi needed to be trained for twenty years before they went out on their own. The first time we see a leap of understanding, of learning, is when Luke is on the Falcon trying to dodge little laser blasts.
He's basically trying to guess all on his own and failing, until Obi-Wan tells him to feel the force around him. Then, all of the sudden he blocks three blasts, blind folded. Then something similar happens on the trench run. Obi-Wan doesn't show him anything, not one single thing. Doesn't demonstrate anything. Only tells him to reach out and feel it
Rey's heard stories of the force, so she's not 100% ignorant like Luke was. She has a powerful vision. Perhaps she was a student of Luke's that he hid because all the others got murdered. Or, maybe she's his daughter like many think ( I hope not)
Indont have a problem with her learning to reach out her senses without Obi-Wan telling her to do so a couple times.
She's not that perfect. She shows flaws. She displays some force ability. I'm not going to get bent out of shape about that when we clearly don't know her back story.
I agree with all of this.
Also, I will add that I am not bothered by her power levels because I think she is not meant to be the new Luke. She is meant to be the new Anakin. She is the embodiment of the awakening if the Force. Just like Anakin was the Vergence in the Force that had been foreseen (whatever the hell that was supposed to mean.)
Remember everything Anakin was able to do when he was, like, a third grader. I don't think Wato taught him how to design and build a sentient droid. I don't think I his mom taught him how to podrace. That is having that much potential power in you combined with trying things out.
Now take that much power, take away a parent doing their best to protect you and hold you back when they can, and add 10 more years of hard living and surviving on your own in a dangerous place and you've got Rey.
So I get the resistance to how adept she is and how many things she can do. Like a Batman or Superman, our immersion in a story and sense that there is peril for such a character can be tested when they are that badass at everything. But I think, first, I am game for that as she does have some weaknesses (sort of similar ones, emotionally, to Wayne and Kal-El, actually), and she is meant to be both aspirational, and the most powerful character in the film. I think it is intentional.
And I think her power level will be a big driving factor in the next movie. It is what might make Luke afraid to train her. It is what will make Ren so jealous of her, as she is basically what he wanted to be. And it is what will make Snoke want her for his own. And, just like she never wanted to touch that lightsaber after having that vision, it may be that- now that Rey is aware of how powerful she is- she may be afraid of it, too.
So while I get why it tests believably that she is able to do so much, and would be really lame in a different kind of movie, I think Star Wars is a world in which this is possible, but will also be the thing that is going to make her such a potentially dangerous entity to both sides.
So, again, think of the things Luke could do, as @Planeis said. But then think, this is not just a new hope child of the Force like Luke. This is a feral Chosen One. An Anakin, who has had less people around to rein her in.
Being pulled out of the movie by Rey's ability to excel at literally everything she tried, as @batlaw and I said, is just the initial reaction we had. Apparently others had the same reaction. My belief wasn't quite as suspended as it needed to be to overcome the credulity of her wunderkind ways. But, after all, this is the newest 'Disney princess,' is she not? The only other problem I had, as I said, was the CGI treatment of Snoke (or was that Darth Plagueis?). Otherwise, the movie was great fun with a sad ending.
I didn't see any issue with Snoke. He was a hologram image being projected at massive scale of a being that had clearly suffered some substantial injuries.
Assuming he was originally human or mostly human, I'm not sure that the injuries could be effectively rendered practically, though the latest in zombie effects may prove me wrong on that.
Rather than doing a composite, adding the static and the other elements that previously went into SW holos, I'm not sure that mo-cap was anything other than the right way to handle it. I'm prepared to hold that decision until I see Snoke sharing the same physical space as other characters (where I hope it isn't revealed that he is a cliched knee high creature projecting himself to massive proportions to compensate for diminutive size).
Being pulled out of the movie by Rey's ability to excel at literally everything she tried, as @batlaw and I said, is just the initial reaction we had. Apparently others had the same reaction. My belief wasn't quite as suspended as it needed to be to overcome the credulity of her wunderkind ways. But, after all, this is the newest 'Disney princess,' is she not? The only other problem I had, as I said, was the CGI treatment of Snoke (or was that Darth Plagueis?). Otherwise, the movie was great fun with a sad ending.
Not the newest Disney Princess. The newest Star Wars Chosen One. (An idea that predates the sale.). So I would say the explanation is not 'Because, Disney Magic.' It is 'Because, Star Wars.'
It has always been a fantasy story, with mythic heroes. Heck, you could say Odyssesius was a Mary Sue, too. Or Aragorn.
She is just the newest one in the mythos of Star Wars. And seems destined to be as important to the universe of the story as Anakin was. So, I get why some people were distracted or taken out of it because of her. But to me she fits. Because, Star Wars.
It stretched beyond the limits of credibility for me and took me out of the story unnecessarily, and yes, I realize I'm discussing fantasy science-fiction here.
Emphasis added
I think like most JJ Abrams movies, this story exists best in the moment of experience when you’re actually watching it, and doesn't stand up to a lot of deep thought or analysis afterward. Knowing myself, I could nitpick this thing endlessly if I wanted to. We all could. But what fun would that be? Nonetheless, I enjoyed it for what it was and look forward to seeing what lies ahead with these exciting new characters.
Perhaps this requires a new thread, but does anyone have any thoughts on which angle the Marvel Star Wars comics should take in regards to EpVII?
Maybe Knights of Ren, perhaps? Or Skywalker Jedi Academy? Poe Dameron: Most Straightforward Uncomplicated Hero in the Galaxy or my personal choice The Further Adventures of Han Solo & Chewbacca
I'm struggling to place this movie. I definitely prefer it to any of the Prequels. But I can't decide if I like it more than 'Return of the Jedi' or not...
I agree with most everything positive already said here. Though what I disagree with is how Ren's temper and internal, near "emo-ness" made him a layered, threatening and compelling character.
Don't get me wrong. A Force sensitive/adept young man with daddy issues, a Dark side, and a damn lightsaber is absolutely a wild card you should fear. But most of the time I saw him I was just irritated by him rather than afraid. Like he was a petulant, whiny little preteen.
I'll say that now that Han is dead and he's got a clear defined enemy now in the persons of Rey and Finn, the next time we see Ren he's going to be a helluva lot more intimidating and....resolved. The daddy complex is gone (though he may be weighed down with guilt...maybe), his enemies have a non-personal face, and his training will have been "completed" by Snoke.
I obviously don't think Ren was SUPPOSED to show up on the scene with Vader level gravitas and power. But I think I was expecting a little more than what we got. Though, to be fair, I can see what they were going for and where they're headed and don't fault them for it. So it's more a critique of what I wanted as opposed to HOW what happened happened.
The other thing? I wanted much more Luke. Not like Han or even Leia level screentime...but SOME would have been great. HOWEVER...if the sacrifice of Luke screentime meant I came out of the theater actually giving a damn about the new cast and excited to see more of them? Then by all means, I'm ok at the end of the day with less Luke.
But still...I can't decide if it's better or worse than Jedi...
I think like most JJ Abrams movies, this story exists best in the moment of experience when you’re actually watching it, and doesn't stand up to a lot of deep thought or analysis afterward.
I was trying to figure out what was missing from the movie and you've hit on it. I enjoyed the movie from beginning to end, but very little of it had an impact on me as I reflected on it later. I went back and looked at JJ's filmography and realized that the flaw in his movies is that they rarely stay with you. And when I think about it, that's a pretty damning complaint to make about a filmmaker. It's like he stole the style of the original movies, but forgot the substance.
As @David_D indicated, Luke was more than a little of a wunderkind himself, to say nothing of young Anakin.
In Star Wars Luke:
Identified himself as a monster pilot, able to hit womp rats (about 2m's in size from a flying Skyhopper)
Picked up the lightsaber, blind, pretty freaking quick.
Demonstrated an immediate proficiency with a stormtroop standard issue grappling hook.
Immediately understood and excelled with the gunnery systems on board a star ship, having never previously left Tatooine's gravity well.
Immediately understood and excelled with the systems on board a single crew combat fighter.
Obi-Wan, who last touched high technology 20 years ago in the former Republic, knows how to turn off a Death Star shield generator. And sort of knows he knows he can do it.
R2-D2, just some astromech droid from Naboo, saves everyone how many times?
Anakin accidentally fires the shot that destroys the CIS command ship, defeating the droid army.
Han and his team get those shields down at the last second so that the attack on the second Death Star can go forward.
In the latest movie, Han pulls out of his ass a never before done maneuver that can hyperspace a ship through a planetary shield to allow them to (crash) land on the surface.
Later, despite Finn being a TrashTrooper who was bluffing, they figure out how to cripple the defenses of Starkiller base, so that Poe and his squad can get their shots in. Good thing Captain Phasma was passing by on her own at juuuuuusst the right time.
Because it has never been hard SF. Or even soft SF. It has never been research heavy military fiction, or some espionage thriller full of tradecraft, or a mystery full of tight procedure. Instead, it is a world where larger than life heroes do amazing things right at the knick of time.
It's a space fantasy. And I get there can be different degrees of belivibility, and I respect that some viewers wanted it to be more grounded, or feel more plausible than I felt I needed. But what I don't agree with is that this is something new. A change, or a Disney thing. It's Star Wars. A saga that started out as an attempt to reboot Flash Gordon, and then, when he later started making it his own thing, took even bigger strides towards fantasy and fairy tale than Flash Gordon ever had.
Lucas knew there was no sound in space. But that is less fun. So, loud, fiery explosions and screaming engines in space. Because, Star Wars. It was never intended to be plausible.
It stretched beyond the limits of credibility for me and took me out of the story unnecessarily, and yes, I realize I'm discussing fantasy science-fiction here.
Emphasis added, again.
Oh, and yes, Luke, too, was a 'Mary Sue'. My 8 year old mind wasn't as discerning as I am today, but thanks for pointing that out @David_D
It's easy to understand this choice. The kids who make up much of Star Wars' audience can use a self-insertion figure, someone they can easily imagine being if they were plopped into this universe. Force Awakens has just made that figure a woman, instead of a man, and Rey is instantly the most compelling new character in the film.
I like her, but I think JJ overdid it a bit. She speaks “droid” and Wookie. She’s great with a staff and a mechanic prodigy. Teaches herself the Force, beats Kylo Ren in her first lightsaber duel (Luke didn't do that). And she is nearly flawless physically, morally and intellectually.
Of course we don’t know her full backstory, but as a standalone movie character, Rey is a 'Mary Sue'. Han, Luke, Leia and even Obi-Wan had notable flaws. Rey feels like she was designed by committee to have as much mass appeal as possible. Along the way, she lost some of her credibility.
Heck, Han died and who did Leia go up to and hug? Not Chewie. Nope. Rey needed a hug. C'mon. This movie isn't perfect and if you want to belabor the point, you're welcome to, but I've made up my mind. The Star Wars universe needed a capable, proactive heroine and Rey is it. Believability be damned, right?
@bralinator I totally agree that it is not perfect. I actually thought that same thing-- that when they step off the ship at the end, we should be seeing Leia and Chewbacca have a moment, rather than Leia and Rey. And there are things I am critical of in my very first post on it. And I am not looking to change your or anyone's mind. Just making the point that, to me, despite the push back that Rey is getting from some, she fits the level of believability we have come to expect from Star Wars heroes. You can call that belaboring if you want, feel free to not read this if you feel belabored, maybe others in the discussion will find it interesting.
I also would argue that Finn is meant to be our way in. I can't speak for whether the filmmakers thought it would work that way. I know that, in the novelization, whenever Foster writes a scene that both Finn and Rey are in, those scenes are almost always more from Finn's point of view. As a character, she basically holds her cards close through all the scenes in the book. He is the relatable character, and she is more of the mysterious, larger than life figure. He's the Frodo, she's the Aragorn.
Sort of like how Luke got less and less relatable and understandable to us as the original trilogy went on, but Han and Leia were always people we could relate to and understand. But, I can't predict who will be the character that different people most connect with are relate to.
I also would argue that Finn is meant to be our way in. I can't speak for whether the filmmakers thought it would work that way. I know that, in the novelization, whenever Foster writes a scene that both Finn and Rey are in, those scenes are almost always more from Finn's point of view. As a character, she basically holds her cards close through all the scenes in the book. He is the relatable character, and she is more of the mysterious, larger than life figure.
My problem with Finn was we couldn't figure out if he was a liar, a coward, or simply chasing a girl. Maybe all three, but I don't think he's as relatable a character as Rey. Your mileage may vary and it may be a gender thing for some. However, I would argue that the most compelling character from E7 is probably Kylo Ren. He's basically Anakin (from the prequels) done right.
I also would argue that Finn is meant to be our way in. I can't speak for whether the filmmakers thought it would work that way. I know that, in the novelization, whenever Foster writes a scene that both Finn and Rey are in, those scenes are almost always more from Finn's point of view. As a character, she basically holds her cards close through all the scenes in the book. He is the relatable character, and she is more of the mysterious, larger than life figure.
My problem with Finn was we couldn't figure out if he was a liar, a coward, or simply chasing a girl. Maybe all three, but I don't think he's as relatable a character as Rey. Your mileage may vary and it may be a gender thing for some. However, I would argue that the most compelling character from E7 is probably Kylo Ren. He's basically Anakin (from the prequels) done right.
And I think it is a compliment to the film that there are a lot of ways in. I think the new cast members are excellent across the board. I look forward to, now that the torch has been passed, all of them having more to do, and being in a story that isn't so focused on being an echo of A New Hope.
One thing I'd seen some people post about on another forum was Kylo Ren's seemingly new Force powers. They were saying his mind reading abilities were never seen before. I had to think for a moment but they're wrong. Vader gleaned his daughter's existence from Luke's thoughts.
Finally got to see the movie. It mostly felt like a classic Star Wars movie. I really enjoyed the new characters; especially seeing their parallels to the original characters. I had zero complaints about Rey's abilities. It's not like we haven't seen that in Episodes I & IV. I'm hoping Rey is actually Ben's younger sister. With Ren going rogue, Luke in exile, I could foresee Han or Leia leaving her on Jakku to keep her safe.
I thought Ren seemed most menacing before his mask removal. It was a definite switch to see the mask just a mask & not a life support apparatus. I wonder what kind of scarring did Ren sustain at the end. Is it necessary for Sith to be disfigured? Also, why didn't Ren us the prefix "Darth"?
I knew in advance about Han's death...and it did not alter how it made me feel. I actually felt the most uneasy when I noticed his body was not even recovered for a proper burial. It was just obliterated. That's more for "red shirts" then a character of Han's status. He definitely became the Kenabi in this movie.
My biggest issue with the movie was the overuse of humor. That took me out of the movie more then anything else. Most of Han's one-liners fit, but the crossbow bit ran long and seemed ridiculous.
All in all, really looking forward to the next 2 episodes.
Side bar: prior to the movie, they aired BvS:DoJ & Civil War back to back. It was weird to watch the two consecutively. One definitely gave me chills and enthusiasm to see...those other I was more indifferent about.
"Darth" is a title bestowed upon a Sith apprentice by their master.
"..you will be known as Dath Vader!"
a) Snoke, Kylo and the Knights of Ren are Darkside users but aren't Sith
OR
b) Kylo Ren isn't far enough along in his training to receive the title from Snoke.
Since he's already changed his name it makes me wonder if these guys are even Sith. Vader and the Emperor were the only two in the galaxy and were killed in the 2nd Deathstar. Snoke could be someone Palpatine or Vader were secretly training..or he could be a self proclaimed Sith but I don't think so.
Here's something else I've been thinking about (besides if a Super Star Destroyer would replicate the impact that lead to the extinction of dinosaurs), so out of the Empire grew the First Order. Easy enough. If I understand correctly, the Republic still exists (at least until Coruscant was obliterated), but why was The Resistance created? It sounded like the Republic was still pretty solid & the First Order was trying to come back into power. So why was the Resistance created instead of the Republic try to eliminate the First Order itself? The Republic was backing the Resistance anyway?
Here's something else I've been thinking about (besides if a Super Star Destroyer would replicate the impact that lead to the extinction of dinosaurs), so out of the Empire grew the First Order. Easy enough. If I understand correctly, the Republic still exists (at least until Coruscant was obliterated), but why was The Resistance created? It sounded like the Republic was still pretty solid & the First Order was trying to come back into power. So why was the Resistance created instead of the Republic try to eliminate the First Order itself? The Republic was backing the Resistance anyway?
M
I think these elements of the status quo not being set up in the movie is the biggest weakness of the movie, as far as I'm concerned. I think there were clearly some scenes cut (they are in the novelization; we will probably see them as cut scenes on the home release) that at least attempt to justify the way things are.
But as movies, if you want from VI right to VII, I think they don't really justify why the Republic that (re)forms after the defeat of the Empire is so weak as to tolerate the First Order existing at all. And the opening crawl says that the Resistance has the support of the Republic. But I wonder whether that was an oversimplification added after the fact once this 2 hour 16 min cut was locked.
Because, if you take it that way, that the Resistance has the support of the Republic, then they aren't 'The Resistance', they are the authorities. They ARE the Republic, and they shouldn't have to hide from The First Order, nor should there be any distinction between the Resistance and the Republic. Either they are the armed forces of the Republic, or they aren't, you know what I mean?
The novelization (and, I would guess, a longer cut of the movie that has Leia scenes that set up her and the Resistance, prior to her landing on Takodana) has some expository scenes where we hear that the people of the Republic have lost hope (why is not exactly explained), and are having trouble going from being a populace largely told what to do by a dictator, to being people that can self-govern. There are some lines about how the Senate is falling to bickering and dithering again (echoes of the inaction about the trade blockage in E1) and therefore they have not taken direct action against the First Order. Leia sends an emissary to the capital planet (no longer Coruscant, I forget the name of the new place) to ask one more time for them to take action, but she doesn't expect they will. In the scene where we watch the capital planet get destroyed, I believe the emissary is the woman in the Resistance dress uniform you see in the front of the crowd. Her real scene got cut, but you basically experience the destruction of the planet from her point of view, as she is the only character there you would have met.
So it seems that it is really set up for the Resistance and the Republic to be two different things. That maybe the Resistance gets some support, or at least tolerance, from the Republic. But they are acting on their own to resist the rise of the First Order. And that also explains why they are secretive, and their resources are not as great as the Republic.
Also, and this is another thing from the book-- the Starkiller weapon basically makes use of hyperspace gates (those globe-looking things). So it sort of feels like Starkiller base is close enough to the Hosnian System (where the new Republic capital and fleet are) that it can shoot its lava or whatever it is, and it just travels not that far and hits the targets. It made it feel like all these different forces were in neighboring systems. When, actually, they sort of fire the weapon into hyperspace portal, so that it can then show up near a target and hit it. I don't think that was clear in the movie. It felt like the First Order is having giant, superweapon-praising rallys and displays of their military power right out in the open, and it would be even more ridiculous for a Republic to tolerate that-- basically people are dressing up as the old Empire.
When actually the planet that the Starkiller base is on is supposed to be far away and hidden. And is not able to be scouted by a Resistance recon flight until they fire and reveal themselves.
So, very long version shorter-- they didn't set this up very well. It feels, as they wanted this movie to echo E4 so much, that they wanted it to basically feel like Empire vs. Rebels again. But they didn't really justify how that makes sense.
Here's something else I've been thinking about (besides if a Super Star Destroyer would replicate the impact that lead to the extinction of dinosaurs), so out of the Empire grew the First Order. Easy enough. If I understand correctly, the Republic still exists (at least until Coruscant was obliterated), but why was The Resistance created? It sounded like the Republic was still pretty solid & the First Order was trying to come back into power. So why was the Resistance created instead of the Republic try to eliminate the First Order itself? The Republic was backing the Resistance anyway?
M
I think these elements of the status quo not being set up in the movie is the biggest weakness of the movie, as far as I'm concerned. I think there were clearly some scenes cut (they are in the novelization; we will probably see them as cut scenes on the home release) that at least attempt to justify the way things are.
But as movies, if you want from VI right to VII, I think they don't really justify why the Republic that (re)forms after the defeat of the Empire is so weak as to tolerate the First Order existing at all. And the opening crawl says that the Resistance has the support of the Republic. But I wonder whether that was an oversimplification added after the fact once this 2 hour 16 min cut was locked.
Because, if you take it that way, that the Resistance has the support of the Republic, then they aren't 'The Resistance', they are the authorities. They ARE the Republic, and they shouldn't have to hide from The First Order, nor should there be any distinction between the Resistance and the Republic. Either they are the armed forces of the Republic, or they aren't, you know what I mean?
The novelization (and, I would guess, a longer cut of the movie that has Leia scenes that set up her and the Resistance, prior to her landing on Takodana) has some expository scenes where we hear that the people of the Republic have lost hope (why is not exactly explained), and are having trouble going from being a populace largely told what to do by a dictator, to being people that can self-govern. There are some lines about how the Senate is falling to bickering and dithering again (echoes of the inaction about the trade blockage in E1) and therefore they have not taken direct action against the First Order. Leia sends an emissary to the capital planet (no longer Coruscant, I forget the name of the new place) to ask one more time for them to take action, but she doesn't expect they will. In the scene where we watch the capital planet get destroyed, I believe the emissary is the woman in the Resistance dress uniform you see in the front of the crowd. Her real scene got cut, but you basically experience the destruction of the planet from her point of view, as she is the only character there you would have met.
So it seems that it is really set up for the Resistance and the Republic to be two different things. That maybe the Resistance gets some support, or at least tolerance, from the Republic. But they are acting on their own to resist the rise of the First Order. And that also explains why they are secretive, and their resources are not as great as the Republic.
Also, and this is another thing from the book-- the Starkiller weapon basically makes use of hyperspace gates (those globe-looking things). So it sort of feels like Starkiller base is close enough to the Hosnian System (where the new Republic capital and fleet are) that it can shoot its lava or whatever it is, and it just travels not that far and hits the targets. It made it feel like all these different forces were in neighboring systems. When, actually, they sort of fire the weapon into hyperspace portal, so that it can then show up near a target and hit it. I don't think that was clear in the movie. It felt like the First Order is having giant, superweapon-praising rallys and displays of their military power right out in the open, and it would be even more ridiculous for a Republic to tolerate that-- basically people are dressing up as the old Empire.
When actually the planet that the Starkiller base is on is supposed to be far away and hidden. And is not able to be scouted by a Resistance recon flight until they fire and reveal themselves.
So, very long version shorter-- they didn't set this up very well. It feels, as they wanted this movie to echo E4 so much, that they wanted it to basically feel like Empire vs. Rebels again. But they didn't really justify how that makes sense.
It sounds as though the easier route might have been to keep the Resistance the Republic. This time, they outnumber the Empire/First Order. Once the capital is destroyed, the power balance shifts. Then have the opening scroll of E8 explain with the Republic virtually no more, the surviving group are now referred to as the Resistance.
The novelization offers some good explanation and insight on this, which is once again an encouragement to... read! We all know the book is usually better than the movie. The movie did a poor job of explaining the Resisitance's strained relationship to the Republic.
Comments
M
I could've easily said she was a Mary Stu or Gary Stu, it's been a common trope for years. I think it perfectly defines the character, at least for this film. Do you disagree or have you still not seen it?
I could've easily said she was a Mary Stu or Gary Stu, it's been a common trope for years. I think it perfectly defines the character, at least for this film. Do you disagree or have you still not seen it?
The hashtag #MarySue was trending. Mark Waid was justifying Kent as a Mary Sue when he first appeared in comics.
There's a 9am showing on Christmas Eve I'm shooting for to see it.
M
I was also pulled out of the movie by Rey's shocking aptitude for everything. They overdid it for me with her successful use of the mind trick to escape. It was compounded and made worse by the fight w/ Ren. It's made more annoying because those bits could've been easily handled better / differently and avoided the problem.
As for her apparent force abilities, I chalk it up to this. Before the prequels, we didn't have any sense that a Jedi needed to be trained for twenty years before they went out on their own. The first time we see a leap of understanding, of learning, is when Luke is on the Falcon trying to dodge little laser blasts.
He's basically trying to guess all on his own and failing, until Obi-Wan tells him to feel the force around him. Then, all of the sudden he blocks three blasts, blind folded. Then something similar happens on the trench run. Obi-Wan doesn't show him anything, not one single thing. Doesn't demonstrate anything. Only tells him to reach out and feel it
Rey's heard stories of the force, so she's not 100% ignorant like Luke was. She has a powerful vision. Perhaps she was a student of Luke's that he hid because all the others got murdered. Or, maybe she's his daughter like many think ( I hope not)
Indont have a problem with her learning to reach out her senses without Obi-Wan telling her to do so a couple times.
She's not that perfect. She shows flaws. She displays some force ability. I'm not going to get bent out of shape about that when we clearly don't know her back story.
You will see that she doesn't need to be considered "flawless" but Rey certainly fits the "Mary Sue" description to a 'T'
Also, I will add that I am not bothered by her power levels because I think she is not meant to be the new Luke. She is meant to be the new Anakin. She is the embodiment of the awakening if the Force. Just like Anakin was the Vergence in the Force that had been foreseen (whatever the hell that was supposed to mean.)
Remember everything Anakin was able to do when he was, like, a third grader. I don't think Wato taught him how to design and build a sentient droid. I don't think I his mom taught him how to podrace. That is having that much potential power in you combined with trying things out.
Now take that much power, take away a parent doing their best to protect you and hold you back when they can, and add 10 more years of hard living and surviving on your own in a dangerous place and you've got Rey.
So I get the resistance to how adept she is and how many things she can do. Like a Batman or Superman, our immersion in a story and sense that there is peril for such a character can be tested when they are that badass at everything. But I think, first, I am game for that as she does have some weaknesses (sort of similar ones, emotionally, to Wayne and Kal-El, actually), and she is meant to be both aspirational, and the most powerful character in the film. I think it is intentional.
And I think her power level will be a big driving factor in the next movie. It is what might make Luke afraid to train her. It is what will make Ren so jealous of her, as she is basically what he wanted to be. And it is what will make Snoke want her for his own. And, just like she never wanted to touch that lightsaber after having that vision, it may be that- now that Rey is aware of how powerful she is- she may be afraid of it, too.
So while I get why it tests believably that she is able to do so much, and would be really lame in a different kind of movie, I think Star Wars is a world in which this is possible, but will also be the thing that is going to make her such a potentially dangerous entity to both sides.
So, again, think of the things Luke could do, as @Planeis said. But then think, this is not just a new hope child of the Force like Luke. This is a feral Chosen One. An Anakin, who has had less people around to rein her in.
Assuming he was originally human or mostly human, I'm not sure that the injuries could be effectively rendered practically, though the latest in zombie effects may prove me wrong on that.
Rather than doing a composite, adding the static and the other elements that previously went into SW holos, I'm not sure that mo-cap was anything other than the right way to handle it. I'm prepared to hold that decision until I see Snoke sharing the same physical space as other characters (where I hope it isn't revealed that he is a cliched knee high creature projecting himself to massive proportions to compensate for diminutive size).
Edited to clarify broken thoughts and auto text.
It has always been a fantasy story, with mythic heroes. Heck, you could say Odyssesius was a Mary Sue, too. Or Aragorn.
She is just the newest one in the mythos of Star Wars. And seems destined to be as important to the universe of the story as Anakin was. So, I get why some people were distracted or taken out of it because of her. But to me she fits. Because, Star Wars.
I think like most JJ Abrams movies, this story exists best in the moment of experience when you’re actually watching it, and doesn't stand up to a lot of deep thought or analysis afterward. Knowing myself, I could nitpick this thing endlessly if I wanted to. We all could. But what fun would that be? Nonetheless, I enjoyed it for what it was and look forward to seeing what lies ahead with these exciting new characters.
Perhaps this requires a new thread, but does anyone have any thoughts on which angle the Marvel Star Wars comics should take in regards to EpVII?
Maybe Knights of Ren, perhaps?
Or Skywalker Jedi Academy?
Poe Dameron: Most Straightforward Uncomplicated Hero in the Galaxy
or my personal choice
The Further Adventures of Han Solo & Chewbacca
In Star Wars Luke:
Identified himself as a monster pilot, able to hit womp rats (about 2m's in size from a flying Skyhopper)
Picked up the lightsaber, blind, pretty freaking quick.
Demonstrated an immediate proficiency with a stormtroop standard issue grappling hook.
Immediately understood and excelled with the gunnery systems on board a star ship, having never previously left Tatooine's gravity well.
Immediately understood and excelled with the systems on board a single crew combat fighter.
I agree with most everything positive already said here. Though what I disagree with is how Ren's temper and internal, near "emo-ness" made him a layered, threatening and compelling character.
Don't get me wrong. A Force sensitive/adept young man with daddy issues, a Dark side, and a damn lightsaber is absolutely a wild card you should fear. But most of the time I saw him I was just irritated by him rather than afraid. Like he was a petulant, whiny little preteen.
I'll say that now that Han is dead and he's got a clear defined enemy now in the persons of Rey and Finn, the next time we see Ren he's going to be a helluva lot more intimidating and....resolved. The daddy complex is gone (though he may be weighed down with guilt...maybe), his enemies have a non-personal face, and his training will have been "completed" by Snoke.
I obviously don't think Ren was SUPPOSED to show up on the scene with Vader level gravitas and power. But I think I was expecting a little more than what we got. Though, to be fair, I can see what they were going for and where they're headed and don't fault them for it. So it's more a critique of what I wanted as opposed to HOW what happened happened.
The other thing? I wanted much more Luke. Not like Han or even Leia level screentime...but SOME would have been great. HOWEVER...if the sacrifice of Luke screentime meant I came out of the theater actually giving a damn about the new cast and excited to see more of them? Then by all means, I'm ok at the end of the day with less Luke.
But still...I can't decide if it's better or worse than Jedi...
R2-D2, just some astromech droid from Naboo, saves everyone how many times?
Anakin accidentally fires the shot that destroys the CIS command ship, defeating the droid army.
Han and his team get those shields down at the last second so that the attack on the second Death Star can go forward.
In the latest movie, Han pulls out of his ass a never before done maneuver that can hyperspace a ship through a planetary shield to allow them to (crash) land on the surface.
Later, despite Finn being a TrashTrooper who was bluffing, they figure out how to cripple the defenses of Starkiller base, so that Poe and his squad can get their shots in. Good thing Captain Phasma was passing by on her own at juuuuuusst the right time.
Because it has never been hard SF. Or even soft SF. It has never been research heavy military fiction, or some espionage thriller full of tradecraft, or a mystery full of tight procedure. Instead, it is a world where larger than life heroes do amazing things right at the knick of time.
It's a space fantasy. And I get there can be different degrees of belivibility, and I respect that some viewers wanted it to be more grounded, or feel more plausible than I felt I needed. But what I don't agree with is that this is something new. A change, or a Disney thing. It's Star Wars. A saga that started out as an attempt to reboot Flash Gordon, and then, when he later started making it his own thing, took even bigger strides towards fantasy and fairy tale than Flash Gordon ever had.
Lucas knew there was no sound in space. But that is less fun. So, loud, fiery explosions and screaming engines in space. Because, Star Wars. It was never intended to be plausible.
Oh, and yes, Luke, too, was a 'Mary Sue'. My 8 year old mind wasn't as discerning as I am today, but thanks for pointing that out @David_D
It's easy to understand this choice. The kids who make up much of Star Wars' audience can use a self-insertion figure, someone they can easily imagine being if they were plopped into this universe. Force Awakens has just made that figure a woman, instead of a man, and Rey is instantly the most compelling new character in the film.
I like her, but I think JJ overdid it a bit. She speaks “droid” and Wookie. She’s great with a staff and a mechanic prodigy. Teaches herself the Force, beats Kylo Ren in her first lightsaber duel (Luke didn't do that). And she is nearly flawless physically, morally and intellectually.
Of course we don’t know her full backstory, but as a standalone movie character, Rey is a 'Mary Sue'. Han, Luke, Leia and even Obi-Wan had notable flaws. Rey feels like she was designed by committee to have as much mass appeal as possible. Along the way, she lost some of her credibility.
Heck, Han died and who did Leia go up to and hug? Not Chewie. Nope. Rey needed a hug. C'mon. This movie isn't perfect and if you want to belabor the point, you're welcome to, but I've made up my mind. The Star Wars universe needed a capable, proactive heroine and Rey is it. Believability be damned, right?
I also would argue that Finn is meant to be our way in. I can't speak for whether the filmmakers thought it would work that way. I know that, in the novelization, whenever Foster writes a scene that both Finn and Rey are in, those scenes are almost always more from Finn's point of view. As a character, she basically holds her cards close through all the scenes in the book. He is the relatable character, and she is more of the mysterious, larger than life figure. He's the Frodo, she's the Aragorn.
Sort of like how Luke got less and less relatable and understandable to us as the original trilogy went on, but Han and Leia were always people we could relate to and understand. But, I can't predict who will be the character that different people most connect with are relate to.
I thought Ren seemed most menacing before his mask removal. It was a definite switch to see the mask just a mask & not a life support apparatus. I wonder what kind of scarring did Ren sustain at the end. Is it necessary for Sith to be disfigured? Also, why didn't Ren us the prefix "Darth"?
I knew in advance about Han's death...and it did not alter how it made me feel. I actually felt the most uneasy when I noticed his body was not even recovered for a proper burial. It was just obliterated. That's more for "red shirts" then a character of Han's status. He definitely became the Kenabi in this movie.
My biggest issue with the movie was the overuse of humor. That took me out of the movie more then anything else. Most of Han's one-liners fit, but the crossbow bit ran long and seemed ridiculous.
All in all, really looking forward to the next 2 episodes.
Side bar: prior to the movie, they aired BvS:DoJ & Civil War back to back. It was weird to watch the two consecutively. One definitely gave me chills and enthusiasm to see...those other I was more indifferent about.
M
"..you will be known as Dath Vader!"
a) Snoke, Kylo and the Knights of Ren are Darkside users but aren't Sith
OR
b) Kylo Ren isn't far enough along in his training to receive the title from Snoke.
Since he's already changed his name it makes me wonder if these guys are even Sith. Vader and the Emperor were the only two in the galaxy and were killed in the 2nd Deathstar. Snoke could be someone Palpatine or Vader were secretly training..or he could be a self proclaimed Sith but I don't think so.
M
But as movies, if you want from VI right to VII, I think they don't really justify why the Republic that (re)forms after the defeat of the Empire is so weak as to tolerate the First Order existing at all. And the opening crawl says that the Resistance has the support of the Republic. But I wonder whether that was an oversimplification added after the fact once this 2 hour 16 min cut was locked.
Because, if you take it that way, that the Resistance has the support of the Republic, then they aren't 'The Resistance', they are the authorities. They ARE the Republic, and they shouldn't have to hide from The First Order, nor should there be any distinction between the Resistance and the Republic. Either they are the armed forces of the Republic, or they aren't, you know what I mean?
The novelization (and, I would guess, a longer cut of the movie that has Leia scenes that set up her and the Resistance, prior to her landing on Takodana) has some expository scenes where we hear that the people of the Republic have lost hope (why is not exactly explained), and are having trouble going from being a populace largely told what to do by a dictator, to being people that can self-govern. There are some lines about how the Senate is falling to bickering and dithering again (echoes of the inaction about the trade blockage in E1) and therefore they have not taken direct action against the First Order. Leia sends an emissary to the capital planet (no longer Coruscant, I forget the name of the new place) to ask one more time for them to take action, but she doesn't expect they will. In the scene where we watch the capital planet get destroyed, I believe the emissary is the woman in the Resistance dress uniform you see in the front of the crowd. Her real scene got cut, but you basically experience the destruction of the planet from her point of view, as she is the only character there you would have met.
So it seems that it is really set up for the Resistance and the Republic to be two different things. That maybe the Resistance gets some support, or at least tolerance, from the Republic. But they are acting on their own to resist the rise of the First Order. And that also explains why they are secretive, and their resources are not as great as the Republic.
Also, and this is another thing from the book-- the Starkiller weapon basically makes use of hyperspace gates (those globe-looking things). So it sort of feels like Starkiller base is close enough to the Hosnian System (where the new Republic capital and fleet are) that it can shoot its lava or whatever it is, and it just travels not that far and hits the targets. It made it feel like all these different forces were in neighboring systems. When, actually, they sort of fire the weapon into hyperspace portal, so that it can then show up near a target and hit it. I don't think that was clear in the movie. It felt like the First Order is having giant, superweapon-praising rallys and displays of their military power right out in the open, and it would be even more ridiculous for a Republic to tolerate that-- basically people are dressing up as the old Empire.
When actually the planet that the Starkiller base is on is supposed to be far away and hidden. And is not able to be scouted by a Resistance recon flight until they fire and reveal themselves.
So, very long version shorter-- they didn't set this up very well. It feels, as they wanted this movie to echo E4 so much, that they wanted it to basically feel like Empire vs. Rebels again. But they didn't really justify how that makes sense.
M