Here's something else I've been thinking about (besides if a Super Star Destroyer would replicate the impact that lead to the extinction of dinosaurs), so out of the Empire grew the First Order. Easy enough. If I understand correctly, the Republic still exists (at least until Coruscant was obliterated), but why was The Resistance created? It sounded like the Republic was still pretty solid & the First Order was trying to come back into power. So why was the Resistance created instead of the Republic try to eliminate the First Order itself? The Republic was backing the Resistance anyway?
M
I think these elements of the status quo not being set up in the movie is the biggest weakness of the movie, as far as I'm concerned. I think there were clearly some scenes cut (they are in the novelization; we will probably see them as cut scenes on the home release) that at least attempt to justify the way things are.
But as movies, if you want from VI right to VII, I think they don't really justify why the Republic that (re)forms after the defeat of the Empire is so weak as to tolerate the First Order existing at all. And the opening crawl says that the Resistance has the support of the Republic. But I wonder whether that was an oversimplification added after the fact once this 2 hour 16 min cut was locked.
Because, if you take it that way, that the Resistance has the support of the Republic, then they aren't 'The Resistance', they are the authorities. They ARE the Republic, and they shouldn't have to hide from The First Order, nor should there be any distinction between the Resistance and the Republic. Either they are the armed forces of the Republic, or they aren't, you know what I mean?
The novelization (and, I would guess, a longer cut of the movie that has Leia scenes that set up her and the Resistance, prior to her landing on Takodana) has some expository scenes where we hear that the people of the Republic have lost hope (why is not exactly explained), and are having trouble going from being a populace largely told what to do by a dictator, to being people that can self-govern. There are some lines about how the Senate is falling to bickering and dithering again (echoes of the inaction about the trade blockage in E1) and therefore they have not taken direct action against the First Order. Leia sends an emissary to the capital planet (no longer Coruscant, I forget the name of the new place) to ask one more time for them to take action, but she doesn't expect they will. In the scene where we watch the capital planet get destroyed, I believe the emissary is the woman in the Resistance dress uniform you see in the front of the crowd. Her real scene got cut, but you basically experience the destruction of the planet from her point of view, as she is the only character there you would have met.
So it seems that it is really set up for the Resistance and the Republic to be two different things. That maybe the Resistance gets some support, or at least tolerance, from the Republic. But they are acting on their own to resist the rise of the First Order. And that also explains why they are secretive, and their resources are not as great as the Republic.
Also, and this is another thing from the book-- the Starkiller weapon basically makes use of hyperspace gates (those globe-looking things). So it sort of feels like Starkiller base is close enough to the Hosnian System (where the new Republic capital and fleet are) that it can shoot its lava or whatever it is, and it just travels not that far and hits the targets. It made it feel like all these different forces were in neighboring systems. When, actually, they sort of fire the weapon into hyperspace portal, so that it can then show up near a target and hit it. I don't think that was clear in the movie. It felt like the First Order is having giant, superweapon-praising rallys and displays of their military power right out in the open, and it would be even more ridiculous for a Republic to tolerate that-- basically people are dressing up as the old Empire.
When actually the planet that the Starkiller base is on is supposed to be far away and hidden. And is not able to be scouted by a Resistance recon flight until they fire and reveal themselves.
So, very long version shorter-- they didn't set this up very well. It feels, as they wanted this movie to echo E4 so much, that they wanted it to basically feel like Empire vs. Rebels again. But they didn't really justify how that makes sense.
I didn't think that this was an issue at all. We have an empire that spans a galaxy. Central government is brought down, but satellite states/systems are going to still have forces that may have been loyal to the original regime or may not have had particularly well organized elements of the Rebellion turned Republic. In the time following, Republican forces are going to be worried about stabilizing and consolidating the territory that they have and about about addressing the neighboring systems/territories that are controlled by Imperial loyalists.
The Resistance, then, is a grassroots organization that is opposed to Imperial loyalists and that is being propped up by representatives of the Republic in the form of one of General Leia and maybe Han and Chewie (though they seemed like they were back to old tricks after Leia and Han broke up).
Historically, it's not all that different than the end of the Roman Empire or Czarist Russia.
Here's something else I've been thinking about (besides if a Super Star Destroyer would replicate the impact that lead to the extinction of dinosaurs), so out of the Empire grew the First Order. Easy enough. If I understand correctly, the Republic still exists (at least until Coruscant was obliterated), but why was The Resistance created? It sounded like the Republic was still pretty solid & the First Order was trying to come back into power. So why was the Resistance created instead of the Republic try to eliminate the First Order itself? The Republic was backing the Resistance anyway?
M
I think these elements of the status quo not being set up in the movie is the biggest weakness of the movie, as far as I'm concerned. I think there were clearly some scenes cut (they are in the novelization; we will probably see them as cut scenes on the home release) that at least attempt to justify the way things are.
But as movies, if you want from VI right to VII, I think they don't really justify why the Republic that (re)forms after the defeat of the Empire is so weak as to tolerate the First Order existing at all. And the opening crawl says that the Resistance has the support of the Republic. But I wonder whether that was an oversimplification added after the fact once this 2 hour 16 min cut was locked.
Because, if you take it that way, that the Resistance has the support of the Republic, then they aren't 'The Resistance', they are the authorities. They ARE the Republic, and they shouldn't have to hide from The First Order, nor should there be any distinction between the Resistance and the Republic. Either they are the armed forces of the Republic, or they aren't, you know what I mean?
The novelization (and, I would guess, a longer cut of the movie that has Leia scenes that set up her and the Resistance, prior to her landing on Takodana) has some expository scenes where we hear that the people of the Republic have lost hope (why is not exactly explained), and are having trouble going from being a populace largely told what to do by a dictator, to being people that can self-govern. There are some lines about how the Senate is falling to bickering and dithering again (echoes of the inaction about the trade blockage in E1) and therefore they have not taken direct action against the First Order. Leia sends an emissary to the capital planet (no longer Coruscant, I forget the name of the new place) to ask one more time for them to take action, but she doesn't expect they will. In the scene where we watch the capital planet get destroyed, I believe the emissary is the woman in the Resistance dress uniform you see in the front of the crowd. Her real scene got cut, but you basically experience the destruction of the planet from her point of view, as she is the only character there you would have met.
So it seems that it is really set up for the Resistance and the Republic to be two different things. That maybe the Resistance gets some support, or at least tolerance, from the Republic. But they are acting on their own to resist the rise of the First Order. And that also explains why they are secretive, and their resources are not as great as the Republic.
Also, and this is another thing from the book-- the Starkiller weapon basically makes use of hyperspace gates (those globe-looking things). So it sort of feels like Starkiller base is close enough to the Hosnian System (where the new Republic capital and fleet are) that it can shoot its lava or whatever it is, and it just travels not that far and hits the targets. It made it feel like all these different forces were in neighboring systems. When, actually, they sort of fire the weapon into hyperspace portal, so that it can then show up near a target and hit it. I don't think that was clear in the movie. It felt like the First Order is having giant, superweapon-praising rallys and displays of their military power right out in the open, and it would be even more ridiculous for a Republic to tolerate that-- basically people are dressing up as the old Empire.
When actually the planet that the Starkiller base is on is supposed to be far away and hidden. And is not able to be scouted by a Resistance recon flight until they fire and reveal themselves.
So, very long version shorter-- they didn't set this up very well. It feels, as they wanted this movie to echo E4 so much, that they wanted it to basically feel like Empire vs. Rebels again. But they didn't really justify how that makes sense.
I didn't think that this was an issue at all. We have an empire that spans a galaxy. Central government is brought down, but satellite states/systems are going to still have forces that may have been loyal to the original regime or may not have had particularly well organized elements of the Rebellion turned Republic. In the time following, Republican forces are going to be worried about stabilizing and consolidating the territory that they have and about about addressing the neighboring systems/territories that are controlled by Imperial loyalists.
The Resistance, then, is a grassroots organization that is opposed to Imperial loyalists and that is being propped up by representatives of the Republic in the form of one of General Leia and maybe Han and Chewie (though they seemed like they were back to old tricks after Leia and Han broke up).
Historically, it's not all that different than the end of the Roman Empire or Czarist Russia.
I think that is a forgiving way to look at it, and I respect that it wasn't an issue for everyone. I know I can get caught up in some of the justification for the world sorts of things.
For me, I think what strained it is the idea that there is a Republic Fleet (the one hanging out in the Hosnian system, and ends up being one big, soft target for the First Order), but that is a separate thing from the Resistance forces. I get that there would be some remnants of the Empire to still defeat, that is a well-trod idea going back to the Thrawn trilogy. But the First Order in the movie feels not like a small, secret faction. They feel like they are still the Empire. That, somewhere in the galaxy, there is still the Empire, strong enough to have snatched baby Finn and many others as babys 20 years ago to raise as Stormtroopers. They are building bigger, better star destroyers, armies and fleets, they are uniformed, they fly a flag, their name is known through the galaxy.
If the a Republic exists, and that is going on, how could they not possibly consider the First Order an existential threat? Why "support" (whatever that is supposed to mean) a group to Resists the First Order, but not actually commit the real Republic fleet to that effort? Was there some other war going on with someone else at the same time? Would it come as a surprise to anyone who lived through the Empire that a First Order, who attempt to build better versions of all the Imperial arms, would be building their own, better WMD?
Again, I trust that the story group has (and even, had) lots up their sleeves to better justify why the conflict is First Order vs. A Small Group Dedicated to Fight Them, instead of why it is not simply First Order vs. The Republic. But I think those justifications did not get screen time in the movie we got.
I think that is a forgiving way to look at it, and I respect that it wasn't an issue for everyone. I know I can get caught up in some of the justification for the world sorts of things.
For me, I think what strained it is the idea that there is a Republic Fleet (the one hanging out in the Hosnian system, and ends up being one big, soft target for the First Order), but that is a separate thing from the Resistance forces. I get that there would be some remnants of the Empire to still defeat, that is a well-trod idea going back to the Thrawn trilogy. But the First Order in the movie feels not like a small, secret faction. They feel like they are still the Empire. That, somewhere in the galaxy, there is still the Empire, strong enough to have snatched baby Finn and many others as babys 20 years ago to raise as Stormtroopers. They are building bigger, better star destroyers, armies and fleets, they are uniformed, they fly a flag, their name is known through the galaxy.
If the a Republic exists, and that is going on, how could they not possibly consider the First Order an existential threat? Why "support" (whatever that is supposed to mean) a group to Resists the First Order, but not actually commit the real Republic fleet to that effort? Was there some other war going on with someone else at the same time? Would it come as a surprise to anyone who lived through the Empire that a First Order, who attempt to build better versions of all the Imperial arms, would be building their own, better WMD?
Again, I trust that the story group has (and even, had) lots up their sleeves to better justify why the conflict is First Order vs. A Small Group Dedicated to Fight Them, instead of why it is not simply First Order vs. The Republic. But I think those justifications did not get screen time in the movie we got.
I'm not sure that it's so much a forgiving position as much as it is one that considers realpolitik. Admittedly, some of my thoughts are based on EU stuff that is no longer canonical, but regardless, there are any number of SF tropes that limit troop movements. Perhaps the First Order, which is clearly and Imperial offshoot that has some drift from Imperial standards, was a military bridgehead to the Outer Rim, or a system, series of systems accessible only by means of limited or difficult navigational points (gravity anomolies making hyperspace navigation incredibly difficult?
At the end of WWI, Allied forces invaded Northern Russia at Archangel and cut the TransSiberian railway as means of trying to prop up White forces against the Bolsheviks. Archangel was a port and the TransSiberian was accessible via Japanese and British holdings in Asia. Troops and material were both supplied to local White forces resisting the Red forces. It seems like a pretty strong parallel.
Why not Republic vs First Order directly? I presume because the world loves and underdog. Republic vs First Order establishment vs establishment (progressive vs conservative?). Resistance vs First Order is a battle against the proverbial "Man".
More important than any real world parallel, this gives them a whole era of untold stories to mine in comics, games, novels and other such ancillary materials.
@hauberk I'm definitely with you on your final conclusions-- that they wanted the good guys to feel like they were the outnumbered underdogs, and that there will be plenty of stories to tell/sell in that gap.
And there could be military or political justifications to be given, or real world parallels to be drawn, to help explain it. My criticism of the film we got is that they gave us none. And, given that it is a surprising (and I would say, unlikely) state of affairs for a post-Empire Republic, I think we could have used some justification.
Even the scene in the novelization that got cut (which was as simple as 'I don't trust the Senate/ they have become ineffective again') would have helped because it would have given us something. Instead, the status quo given in the opening crawl just doesn't feel like it fits with what we see. It is not impossible for it to be a status quo that makes sense. But I think the movie doesn't do much of anything to justify why- after Episode VI (especially the Special Edition) ends with the good guys winning, they are so quickly the underdogs again.
And, to be clear, I still love the movie, and wouldn't have cut what they kept in favor of these justifications. But they could have used an extra minute to get to them.
EDIT- One last thought to add- I guess why any sort of real world parallels about proxy wars are also hard for me to connect to this movie because the First Order, as they are presented, don't seem like they would have a sovereignty that the Republic would acknowledge or have to be diplomatic about. They don't seem to have a people, or systems with citizens. Sp they don't have civilians to worry about, or a populace whose will you might appear to be disenfranchising by not allowing them to be.
In that rally scene, there is no planet whose success or safety they are appealing to, there is no one out of uniform. They seem to exist solely and only to threaten the Republic and return it to Imperial rule. They seem like such a straightforward force of armed baddies, I can't imagine what would be controversial about them in a Senate dispute. They are people who have gathered to try to resurrect the thing that enslaved species and destroyed planets. Their stormtroopers are stolen babies. They are nothing but threat, and the government they exist to threaten would find and destroy them, without question.
But. Because, Star Wars, I guess. I'm sure if I spent enough time thinking about the Galactic Empire it wouldn't really work, either.
@hauberk I'm definitely with you on your final conclusions-- that they wanted the good guys to feel like they were the outnumbered underdogs, and that there will be plenty of stories to tell/sell in that gap.
And there could be military or political justifications to be given, or real world parallels to be drawn, to help explain it. My criticism of the film we got is that they gave us none. And, given that it is a surprising (and I would say, unlikely) state of affairs for a post-Empire Republic, I think we could have used some justification.
Even the scene in the novelization that got cut (which was as simple as 'I don't trust the Senate/ they have become ineffective again') would have helped because it would have given us something. Instead, the status quo given in the opening crawl just doesn't feel like it fits with what we see. It is not impossible for it to be a status quo that makes sense. But I think the movie doesn't do much of anything to justify why- after Episode VI (especially the Special Edition) ends with the good guys winning, they are so quickly the underdogs again.
And, to be clear, I still love the movie, and wouldn't have cut what they kept in favor of these justifications. But they could have used an extra minute to get to them.
EDIT- One last thought to add- I guess why any sort of real world parallels about proxy wars are also hard for me to connect to this movie because the First Order, as they are presented, don't seem like they would have a sovereignty that the Republic would acknowledge or have to be diplomatic about. They don't seem to have a people, or systems with citizens. Sp they don't have civilians to worry about, or a populace whose will you might appear to be disenfranchising by not allowing them to be.
In that rally scene, there is no planet whose success or safety they are appealing to, there is no one out of uniform. They seem to exist solely and only to threaten the Republic and return it to Imperial rule. They seem like such a straightforward force of armed baddies, I can't imagine what would be controversial about them in a Senate dispute. They are people who have gathered to try to resurrect the thing that enslaved species and destroyed planets. Their stormtroopers are stolen babies. They are nothing but threat, and the government they exist to threaten would find and destroy them, without question.
But. Because, Star Wars, I guess. I'm sure if I spent enough time thinking about the Galactic Empire it wouldn't really work, either.
I get where you're coming from. I suspect that the book that I'm currently reading, which looks at the end of WWI as a prelude to WWII is helping with my viewpoint. I will offer one additional thought on the subject... it doesn't have to be about a diplomatic solution. Word collapse of the empire would have occurred at the rate of communication (pretty darned fast), almost as fast, would have been the formation of factions trying to carve out their own piece, all while the Republic was consolidating the territory that they had already gained and trying to reinstate/implement a new governmental system that could accommodate other systems and territories as the factions in those locations could be brought to heel. Many of those locations may have been more pressing threats to the Republic, either based on strength of arms, popular support or geography.
I sort of wonder if the answer isn't in the map. We've been given no context that I could discern as to where the movie takes place in relation to Coruscant, Tatooine, or any of the other previously featured worlds. This could well be Outer Rim, or even an extremity of a Spiral Arm system.
Regardless, I get your frustration, I'm just more than happy to have a movie that didn't disappoint and more than happy to fill in a few blanks (like I did about what the Clone Wars were back in Old Ben's hut in '77 - totally wrong there).
@hauberk I'm definitely with you on your final conclusions-- that they wanted the good guys to feel like they were the outnumbered underdogs, and that there will be plenty of stories to tell/sell in that gap.
And there could be military or political justifications to be given, or real world parallels to be drawn, to help explain it. My criticism of the film we got is that they gave us none. And, given that it is a surprising (and I would say, unlikely) state of affairs for a post-Empire Republic, I think we could have used some justification.
Even the scene in the novelization that got cut (which was as simple as 'I don't trust the Senate/ they have become ineffective again') would have helped because it would have given us something. Instead, the status quo given in the opening crawl just doesn't feel like it fits with what we see. It is not impossible for it to be a status quo that makes sense. But I think the movie doesn't do much of anything to justify why- after Episode VI (especially the Special Edition) ends with the good guys winning, they are so quickly the underdogs again.
And, to be clear, I still love the movie, and wouldn't have cut what they kept in favor of these justifications. But they could have used an extra minute to get to them.
EDIT- One last thought to add- I guess why any sort of real world parallels about proxy wars are also hard for me to connect to this movie because the First Order, as they are presented, don't seem like they would have a sovereignty that the Republic would acknowledge or have to be diplomatic about. They don't seem to have a people, or systems with citizens. Sp they don't have civilians to worry about, or a populace whose will you might appear to be disenfranchising by not allowing them to be.
In that rally scene, there is no planet whose success or safety they are appealing to, there is no one out of uniform. They seem to exist solely and only to threaten the Republic and return it to Imperial rule. They seem like such a straightforward force of armed baddies, I can't imagine what would be controversial about them in a Senate dispute. They are people who have gathered to try to resurrect the thing that enslaved species and destroyed planets. Their stormtroopers are stolen babies. They are nothing but threat, and the government they exist to threaten would find and destroy them, without question.
But. Because, Star Wars, I guess. I'm sure if I spent enough time thinking about the Galactic Empire it wouldn't really work, either.
I get where you're coming from. I suspect that the book that I'm currently reading, which looks at the end of WWI as a prelude to WWII is helping with my viewpoint. I will offer one additional thought on the subject... it doesn't have to be about a diplomatic solution. Word collapse of the empire would have occurred at the rate of communication (pretty darned fast), almost as fast, would have been the formation of factions trying to carve out their own piece, all while the Republic was consolidating the territory that they had already gained and trying to reinstate/implement a new governmental system that could accommodate other systems and territories as the factions in those locations could be brought to heel. Many of those locations may have been more pressing threats to the Republic, either based on strength of arms, popular support or geography.
I sort of wonder if the answer isn't in the map. We've been given no context that I could discern as to where the movie takes place in relation to Coruscant, Tatooine, or any of the other previously featured worlds. This could well be Outer Rim, or even an extremity of a Spiral Arm system.
Regardless, I get your frustration, I'm just more than happy to have a movie that didn't disappoint and more than happy to fill in a few blanks (like I did about what the Clone Wars were back in Old Ben's hut in '77 - totally wrong there).
And I also filled in the blanks and very much still enjoyed the movie. As I said in my first post starting the thread, I would guess they chose character/mythology moments, and giving those moments the time they needed to build and land, over the world building. I would have liked a little more time on the latter. But if they had to choose, I think they made the right choice.
I loved this movie, but was not crazy about the Kylo Ren casting. He pulled off the mask and I thought, "Andy Samberg?!" Then, I just kept thinking of laser cats.
I didn't really have a problem with Rey's abilities. By comparison of character background, Luke Skywalker is John Boy Walton (Aging myself; a dumb farm boy, who can shoot well). He seems to have been the good nephew, who just obeyed his uncle and aunt. He never really flies anything, then he is one of the lead pilots to attack the deathstar. We learn early on that Rey has had a harder life. She is a scavenger, who lives on her own and has to fight for her next meal. She does manage to get herself captured. the villain she is fighting is no Darth Vader. Kylo Ren is, by his own admission, a pale comparison, who hopes to be like vader eventually. Whereas luke is more goofy and cerebral (he fixes everything), Rey is more street smart and scrappy, but will have to develop the more cerebral parts of the force.
Is it a remake or a continuation? Does it matter? Many of the complaints have been that it is just a remake. I didn't get that. Yes, there are many of the same elements, but I just felt like it was giving us more of the things we were missing. When compared with great and/or bad sequels and trilogies, I didn't have a problem. You know a Godfather movie is going to have the new york italian mafia, families are going to battle. Some cops are going to put on the heat, some are going to be paid off, etc., etc..
If I imagined a Star Wars movie that has Han, Luke, and Leia, who are all too old to be the action stars for three more movies, they have to hand over the reins. If you factor in Ford wanted to have Han killed off at the end of Jedi, this is a satisfactory continuation. Luke looks to be the future Obi Wan to Rey's Luke. Leia is the warrior queen we would have imagined she would grow into at the end of the trilogy.
Not excusing, but the context for "white slavers" was Charlie Rose having just called the movies Lucas's kids.
Ok. I never saw the footage and the article I read said Lucas was referring to Disney as "white slavers" for how they're treating him and the SW property. That's reporting for you.
“I misspoke and used a very inappropriate analogy and for that I apologize,” Lucas said in a statement. “I have been working with Disney for 40 years and chose them as the custodians of Star Wars because of my great respect for the company and Bob Iger’s leadership.”
It's clear from the interview, and previous comments, that Lucas is not overly fond of the direction Disney took the saga with The Force Awakens, referring to the films as “my kids,” comparing it to selling your kids into the sex trade seems a poor choice of imagery. I got his point and really didn't find it any more offensive than most of the snipes we hear or read about in this industry. But, I have thicker skin than others, I suppose.
Hey guys, new member here! I just wanted to say that I loved this film and feel that Star Wars is in great hands for the forseeable future. Just wished Phasma was given a little more screen time. Was shocked to hear on the SW CGS episode that the actor who played Wedge in the original trilogy declined to appear in this film. I will admit I was looking for him in that war room scene.
“I misspoke and used a very inappropriate analogy and for that I apologize,” Lucas said in a statement. “I have been working with Disney for 40 years and chose them as the custodians of Star Wars because of my great respect for the company and Bob Iger’s leadership.”
It's clear from the interview, and previous comments, that Lucas is not overly fond of the direction Disney took the saga with The Force Awakens, referring to the films as “my kids,” comparing it to selling your kids into the sex trade seems a poor choice of imagery. I got his point and really didn't find it any more offensive than most of the snipes we hear or read about in this industry. But, I have thicker skin than others, I suppose.
FYI... the interview was done before he saw the new movie.
Oh? When was the interview actually recorded? It's been widely reported that Lucas saw the movie over a month ago.
Prior to, or on, November 19th. That's what Google search in finding the above video, with clothes and setting matching, says that small clip was posted.
And he saw it "As recently as a couple weeks ago, with fans going ape over tidbits and new trailers for “The Force Awakens,” Lucas had still not seen the film. Not a frame."
“I misspoke and used a very inappropriate analogy and for that I apologize,” Lucas said in a statement. “I have been working with Disney for 40 years and chose them as the custodians of Star Wars because of my great respect for the company and Bob Iger’s leadership.”
It's clear from the interview, and previous comments, that Lucas is not overly fond of the direction Disney took the saga with The Force Awakens, referring to the films as “my kids,” comparing it to selling your kids into the sex trade seems a poor choice of imagery. I got his point and really didn't find it any more offensive than most of the snipes we hear or read about in this industry. But, I have thicker skin than others, I suppose.
Eh... he said what he said. Big deal. If a prerequisite for enjoying stuff was that I had to agree with the creators, I would have nothing left to enjoy.
If said creators were not cantankerous, grumpy, edgy, opinionated, and douchebags, they probably wouldn't create anything interesting.
I think the real villain here is the media/public who, in their faux offense, find it necessary for him to apologize/walk it back.
I liked the movie, a lot. I thought it perfectly captured the swept-up-in-the-action feeling of the original trilogy.
My ONLY complaint is Snoke... He was pretty much a humanoid... with some disfigurement... why was he CGI? That really stood out, in a negative way, from the rest of the mostly real, practical, puppets and costume movie. Even the guy Rey was selling stuff to was a guy in makeup, and he was less humanoid looking than Snoke.
The fact that he was obviously CGI really created a barrier for me. I really felt nothing about him, no hate, no fear, no mystery. The Emperor was so much more "real" as a guy in a cloak. Plus, as with the shark in Jaws, and the Alien in Alien, less is more. They showed him in his enitrety, which made him sort of bland. He was probably sitting behind a desk, littered with paperwork and phones.
Anyways, that was my only problem with it.
Oh, and where was the Trade Federation??? ...............Kidding.
I was kind of saddened that kids today, seeing the movie, can't POSSIBLY be affected the way kids of yesterday would have been, no matter how good it was.
I saw Star Wars in 77, when I was 9. IT CHANGED MY LIFE. I never saw anything the same way, again. Everything was filtered through the sense of wonder and the grandness of space that it unlocked in my brain. I don't think today's kids can be influenced like that. There's just too much fantasy and Sci Fi out there, done so well, that it's become mundane, or at least expected as the status-quo. Normally, I wouldn't see that as a bad thing, but it struck me upon leaving the theater, that for these kids, it was just another movie.
I liked the movie, a lot. I thought it perfectly captured the swept-up-in-the-action feeling of the original trilogy.
My ONLY complaint is Snoke... He was pretty much a humanoid... with some disfigurement... why was he CGI? That really stood out, in a negative way, from the rest of the mostly real, practical, puppets and costume movie. Even the guy Rey was selling stuff to was a guy in makeup, and he was less humanoid looking than Snoke.
The fact that he was obviously CGI really created a barrier for me. I really felt nothing about him, no hate, no fear, no mystery. The Emperor was so much more "real" as a guy in a cloak. Plus, as with the shark in Jaws, and the Alien in Alien, less is more. They showed him in his enitrety, which made him sort of bland. He was probably sitting behind a desk, littered with paperwork and phones.
Anyways, that was my only problem with it.
Oh, and where was the Trade Federation??? ...............Kidding.
I know you're joking, but I think it'd be wicked cool if Snoke was really apart of the Trade Federation. This has been them operating in the shadows waiting to usurp the Empire (which the Rebels did), now usurp the Republic (which this First Order did), eliminate the Resistance, & the FT is back in power after decades.
I was kind of saddened that kids today, seeing the movie, can't POSSIBLY be affected the way kids of yesterday would have been, no matter how good it was.
I saw Star Wars in 77, when I was 9. IT CHANGED MY LIFE. I never saw anything the same way, again. Everything was filtered through the sense of wonder and the grandness of space that it unlocked in my brain. I don't think today's kids can be influenced like that. There's just too much fantasy and Sci Fi out there, done so well, that it's become mundane, or at least expected as the status-quo. Normally, I wouldn't see that as a bad thing, but it struck me upon leaving the theater, that for these kids, it was just another movie.
Oh well...
I beg to differ. My daughter is 10, and she has been losing her mind to see The Force Awakens in the theatre for over six months. I have never seen her so amped to see a movie (not even Age of Ultron). All throughout the film, the smile on her face was just as big as the smile on my face.
Is Star Wars as big a deal to her, as it was to 8 year old me? Maybe not, but believe me, The Force Awakens had a big impact. As will the next instalment of the franchise.
I was kind of saddened that kids today, seeing the movie, can't POSSIBLY be affected the way kids of yesterday would have been, no matter how good it was.
I saw Star Wars in 77, when I was 9. IT CHANGED MY LIFE. I never saw anything the same way, again. Everything was filtered through the sense of wonder and the grandness of space that it unlocked in my brain. I don't think today's kids can be influenced like that. There's just too much fantasy and Sci Fi out there, done so well, that it's become mundane, or at least expected as the status-quo. Normally, I wouldn't see that as a bad thing, but it struck me upon leaving the theater, that for these kids, it was just another movie.
Oh well...
I already know several kids for whom this movie is like some sort of gateway drug/crack. The look on their faces is almost indescribable.
Comments
The Resistance, then, is a grassroots organization that is opposed to Imperial loyalists and that is being propped up by representatives of the Republic in the form of one of General Leia and maybe Han and Chewie (though they seemed like they were back to old tricks after Leia and Han broke up).
Historically, it's not all that different than the end of the Roman Empire or Czarist Russia.
For me, I think what strained it is the idea that there is a Republic Fleet (the one hanging out in the Hosnian system, and ends up being one big, soft target for the First Order), but that is a separate thing from the Resistance forces. I get that there would be some remnants of the Empire to still defeat, that is a well-trod idea going back to the Thrawn trilogy. But the First Order in the movie feels not like a small, secret faction. They feel like they are still the Empire. That, somewhere in the galaxy, there is still the Empire, strong enough to have snatched baby Finn and many others as babys 20 years ago to raise as Stormtroopers. They are building bigger, better star destroyers, armies and fleets, they are uniformed, they fly a flag, their name is known through the galaxy.
If the a Republic exists, and that is going on, how could they not possibly consider the First Order an existential threat? Why "support" (whatever that is supposed to mean) a group to Resists the First Order, but not actually commit the real Republic fleet to that effort? Was there some other war going on with someone else at the same time? Would it come as a surprise to anyone who lived through the Empire that a First Order, who attempt to build better versions of all the Imperial arms, would be building their own, better WMD?
Again, I trust that the story group has (and even, had) lots up their sleeves to better justify why the conflict is First Order vs. A Small Group Dedicated to Fight Them, instead of why it is not simply First Order vs. The Republic. But I think those justifications did not get screen time in the movie we got.
At the end of WWI, Allied forces invaded Northern Russia at Archangel and cut the TransSiberian railway as means of trying to prop up White forces against the Bolsheviks. Archangel was a port and the TransSiberian was accessible via Japanese and British holdings in Asia. Troops and material were both supplied to local White forces resisting the Red forces. It seems like a pretty strong parallel.
Why not Republic vs First Order directly? I presume because the world loves and underdog. Republic vs First Order establishment vs establishment (progressive vs conservative?). Resistance vs First Order is a battle against the proverbial "Man".
More important than any real world parallel, this gives them a whole era of untold stories to mine in comics, games, novels and other such ancillary materials.
That being said, since Chewie is seemingly 100 years old, I think we should have seen a shock of white in his face or something.
And there could be military or political justifications to be given, or real world parallels to be drawn, to help explain it. My criticism of the film we got is that they gave us none. And, given that it is a surprising (and I would say, unlikely) state of affairs for a post-Empire Republic, I think we could have used some justification.
Even the scene in the novelization that got cut (which was as simple as 'I don't trust the Senate/ they have become ineffective again') would have helped because it would have given us something. Instead, the status quo given in the opening crawl just doesn't feel like it fits with what we see. It is not impossible for it to be a status quo that makes sense. But I think the movie doesn't do much of anything to justify why- after Episode VI (especially the Special Edition) ends with the good guys winning, they are so quickly the underdogs again.
And, to be clear, I still love the movie, and wouldn't have cut what they kept in favor of these justifications. But they could have used an extra minute to get to them.
EDIT- One last thought to add- I guess why any sort of real world parallels about proxy wars are also hard for me to connect to this movie because the First Order, as they are presented, don't seem like they would have a sovereignty that the Republic would acknowledge or have to be diplomatic about. They don't seem to have a people, or systems with citizens. Sp they don't have civilians to worry about, or a populace whose will you might appear to be disenfranchising by not allowing them to be.
In that rally scene, there is no planet whose success or safety they are appealing to, there is no one out of uniform. They seem to exist solely and only to threaten the Republic and return it to Imperial rule. They seem like such a straightforward force of armed baddies, I can't imagine what would be controversial about them in a Senate dispute. They are people who have gathered to try to resurrect the thing that enslaved species and destroyed planets. Their stormtroopers are stolen babies. They are nothing but threat, and the government they exist to threaten would find and destroy them, without question.
But. Because, Star Wars, I guess. I'm sure if I spent enough time thinking about the Galactic Empire it wouldn't really work, either.
I sort of wonder if the answer isn't in the map. We've been given no context that I could discern as to where the movie takes place in relation to Coruscant, Tatooine, or any of the other previously featured worlds. This could well be Outer Rim, or even an extremity of a Spiral Arm system.
Regardless, I get your frustration, I'm just more than happy to have a movie that didn't disappoint and more than happy to fill in a few blanks (like I did about what the Clone Wars were back in Old Ben's hut in '77 - totally wrong there).
I didn't really have a problem with Rey's abilities. By comparison of character background, Luke Skywalker is John Boy Walton (Aging myself; a dumb farm boy, who can shoot well). He seems to have been the good nephew, who just obeyed his uncle and aunt. He never really flies anything, then he is one of the lead pilots to attack the deathstar. We learn early on that Rey has had a harder life. She is a scavenger, who lives on her own and has to fight for her next meal. She does manage to get herself captured. the villain she is fighting is no Darth Vader. Kylo Ren is, by his own admission, a pale comparison, who hopes to be like vader eventually. Whereas luke is more goofy and cerebral (he fixes everything), Rey is more street smart and scrappy, but will have to develop the more cerebral parts of the force.
If I imagined a Star Wars movie that has Han, Luke, and Leia, who are all too old to be the action stars for three more movies, they have to hand over the reins. If you factor in Ford wanted to have Han killed off at the end of Jedi, this is a satisfactory continuation. Luke looks to be the future Obi Wan to Rey's Luke. Leia is the warrior queen we would have imagined she would grow into at the end of the trilogy.
4 Billion, George, you got 4 Billion..now go away.
And he saw it "As recently as a couple weeks ago, with fans going ape over tidbits and new trailers for “The Force Awakens,” Lucas had still not seen the film. Not a frame."
Per this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/george-lucas-to-feel-the-true-force-of-star-wars-he-had-to-learn-to-let-it-go/2015/11/27/d752067a-8b1f-11e5-be8b-1ae2e4f50f76_story.html
Which is from December 5th, making the earliest he could have seen it as November 21st.
Eh... he said what he said. Big deal. If a prerequisite for enjoying stuff was that I had to agree with the creators, I would have nothing left to enjoy.
If said creators were not cantankerous, grumpy, edgy, opinionated, and douchebags, they probably wouldn't create anything interesting.
I think the real villain here is the media/public who, in their faux offense, find it necessary for him to apologize/walk it back.
My ONLY complaint is Snoke... He was pretty much a humanoid... with some disfigurement... why was he CGI? That really stood out, in a negative way, from the rest of the mostly real, practical, puppets and costume movie. Even the guy Rey was selling stuff to was a guy in makeup, and he was less humanoid looking than Snoke.
The fact that he was obviously CGI really created a barrier for me. I really felt nothing about him, no hate, no fear, no mystery. The Emperor was so much more "real" as a guy in a cloak. Plus, as with the shark in Jaws, and the Alien in Alien, less is more. They showed him in his enitrety, which made him sort of bland. He was probably sitting behind a desk, littered with paperwork and phones.
Anyways, that was my only problem with it.
Oh, and where was the Trade Federation??? ...............Kidding.
I was kind of saddened that kids today, seeing the movie, can't POSSIBLY be affected the way kids of yesterday would have been, no matter how good it was.
I saw Star Wars in 77, when I was 9. IT CHANGED MY LIFE. I never saw anything the same way, again. Everything was filtered through the sense of wonder and the grandness of space that it unlocked in my brain. I don't think today's kids can be influenced like that. There's just too much fantasy and Sci Fi out there, done so well, that it's become mundane, or at least expected as the status-quo. Normally, I wouldn't see that as a bad thing, but it struck me upon leaving the theater, that for these kids, it was just another movie.
Oh well...
M
Is Star Wars as big a deal to her, as it was to 8 year old me? Maybe not, but believe me, The Force Awakens had a big impact. As will the next instalment of the franchise.
She won't stop bugging me to go see it again.
So it is POSSIBLE