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Walking Dead jumped the shark? SPOILERS (for the comics)

Hey guys, I just read the Walking Dead Compendium Vol 3. First time I've read Walking Dead since finishing the Vol 2 Compendium a few years ago.

I enjoyed the hell out of it and read it within 24 hours. It's been a long time since I read Walking Dead, and I'd probably have to go back and read those first two volumes to be sure, but I found myself enjoying the series as much as ever. I don't remember liking the earlier issues as much as I liked Vol 3 (which reprints issues 97-144).

Yet for the last couple years there's been this idea out there that Walking Dead jumped the shark. It's been mentioned on CGS a few times (from Chris) and I've seen a few people on the boards agree with the sentiment. Sadly (and kind of infuriatingly) I've ever really seen any discussion of WHY or WHAT HAPPENED to cause people to lose confidence in the series. There's talk of horrible/violent things that happened, but out of consideration of spoilers, I don't think these points have ever really been addressed. And after reading the actual issues, I don't really see what the big fuss was.

So, SPOILERS below.

I guess people were upset about what happened in issue #100. Okay, that was brutal. But not MUCH more brutal than MANY, MANY other things that the series has shown. It was obviously done to build up Negan's character in a hurry, which it definitely did. But Kirkman did NOT go on a violence trip after that fact. In the rest of the storyline Negan had MANY opportunities to be just as violent, and as readers we were always expecting him to do so... but he showed restraint in almost all circumstances. He could have killed/tortured Carl and Rick (and others), many times, but for the most part he didn't. There was the thing with "the iron", but that's pretty much it, and "the iron" wasn't as brutal as what he did to Glenn in issue 100.

I thought the "ALL OUT WAR" mega-arc was fantastic. It showed a lot of planning on Kirkman's part and really was like reading a military book. Totally excellent. As an adversary, Negan was/is at least as good as the Governor. Issue #100 was necessary for that story to take place. I can see if readers reacted negatively to Glenn's death, but Kirkman basically sacrificed him in order to build up Negan AND to eventually give Maggie the kick she needed to become a better character/leader. Glenn's death wasn't pointless. The character had been around since issue #2. He had a good run. The "All Out War" storyline was huuuuuge and Negan will probably eventually be seen as the major antagonist of the whole series. And Maggie has become basically the second biggest "leader" character next to Rick. So, in other words, Glenn's demise had a definite creative purpose on Kirkman's part: it lead to huge positive developments.

Issue #144 also ended with a lot of gruesome death reveals. So maybe that, along with Glenn's brutal death in issue #100, is what has turned some people off. But for the life of me I'm not sure how any of this is particularly offensive in terms of longform storytelling or deaths that "matter". Maybe the complaint is that Kirkman is using characters as "cannonfodder", but there are so many objections that I'd have to that criticism. For instance:

-The whole series has always been punctuated by major, semi-major, and minor characters dying, often in gruesome ways.

-Sometimes the violence is shown (as in #100, for one person), sometimes it isn't (as in #144, when all the beheadings happen off-panel). Again, it's always been this way.

-We get to know characters well enough so that we CARE about their deaths. How is this any different from major characters dying in all sorts of other long comic series? Whether it's Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man, or all sorts of characters from non-superhero series like Sandman or Preacher, sometimes characters die. As long as the deaths matter and fuel storytelling and character development, I'm not sure what the problem is.

So why do some readers only have a problem with it recently? What's different? Nothing that I can see. Maybe around 2011 or 2012 or so people just finally fell in love with Walking Dead and grew accustomed to the cast of characters at that point in time? And so any major death beyond that point really hurt them?

Honestly, I'm not sure where the naysayers are coming from.

The series is at least as good as it ever was, in my opinion. I was really pleasantly surprised with the 48 issues I just read. There's as much pathos in it as ever. There are tons of tender moments between characters... a lot of philosophical rumination on the importance of civilization and what it means... masterfully executed sequences of action and drama. Kirkman's writing, pacing and dialogue are better than I ever remember them being. And Adlard's art looks better than ever as well, though perhaps in that case it's the addition of someone else inking his stuff.

I totally loved it. Four and a half stars. I don't really get the naysayers. In the situation that this story is set in, do you really not think that brutal people like Negan would not exist? Of course they would. In some places of the real world right now, they already do. They're totally brutal and murder people callously. Kirkman acknowledges this, shows ONE SCENE of it, and Walking Dead "jumps the shark" for it?

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you think that issue #100 represents a negative turn, I'd just like to know why. I think Negan is an incredible character who definitely represents a great villain for this stage of the series. He represents brutal tribal chaos at a point when Rick and the gang are building stable lawful civilization. He's a counterpoint, much like the Governor was way back when Rick and the gang were on the run and the Governor represented a sort of civilization.

Comments

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    I would be very interested to see if @wildpigcomics will jump on this discussion on the forums. Chris has repeatedly mentioned that the series "jumped the shark" but I don't think any of the other geeks have caught up or even plan to. I'm sure several fans of the series would like to know Professor Eberle's take on the series. I know he was once a fan. This would be a great thread for him to join.
  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 879
    I don't know if "jumped the shark" is the right analogy but I have felt TWD has become quite repetitive. I think it's time to attempt drastic changes and risk jumping the shark or revitalizing the series. Or perhaps better yet, bring it to a respectable and gracious close.
  • DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,586
    As far as @wildpigcomics and jumping the shark, I believe the moment that was too much for him was at the end of All Out War. Specifically a certain lack of a character's death.

    And I agree with him. It was beyond ridiculous.

    (Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say it openly, even in this thread)
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967


    (Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say it openly, even in this thread)

    The title of the thread does say 'Spoilers' so feel free.

    Maybe RK figured that killing Negan would have sent a weird message considering Rick's method of winning Negan over in the first place - it's essentially Rick's belief system. Slicing Negan's throat might've sent a conflicting message. And doing it in front of the other Saviors would've made it near impossible for them to ever have a real alliance with Rick's peeps. So with this unexpected result, the world of TWD becomes about more than just survival. Not saying I preferred it, but not sure it qualifies as 'jumping the shark' either.

    Now that we're discussing, I think Eberle DID elaborate about this on one of the episodes after all... can't remember which one.

  • ^^^ I don't think it is less believable, not killing Negan. Killing Negan would have been the easy cliche revenge move, but they were coming out of the first real stable environment, that had been ruined by violence and a loss of justice and order. The goal was to get back to order.

    I do think it needs a jumpstart. It has gotten so big, with all the characters and locations, that it looks like it will be hard to keep going, unless there is a major epidimic/event that makes it more interesting
  • fredzillafredzilla Posts: 2,131
    batlaw said:

    I don't know if "jumped the shark" is the right analogy but I have felt TWD has become quite repetitive. I think it's time to attempt drastic changes and risk jumping the shark or revitalizing the series. Or perhaps better yet, bring it to a respectable and gracious close.

    I cannot speak for @wildpigcomics, but I think this is what he was referring to. The lack of Negan's death just pushed it over the edge. Build up the team, bring in a big baddie, hero/villain confrontation, some major (hero) character dies, baddie is confronted and somehow dispatched, and we start all over again. Negan felt like The Governor 2.0 and thus the stories have felt redundant.

    With that said, I'm still buying the issues (from comiXology and only when they're on sale for $1 each), every 4-6 months. I've got #139 - 147 to read here in the next couple of days. I do feel like the series has "jumped the shark," but I'm willing to plunk down a buck an issue for something even mildly entertaining. I'm not too impressed with all the superhero books out there right now anyway.
  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 879
    fredzilla said:

    batlaw said:

    I don't know if "jumped the shark" is the right analogy but I have felt TWD has become quite repetitive. I think it's time to attempt drastic changes and risk jumping the shark or revitalizing the series. Or perhaps better yet, bring it to a respectable and gracious close.

    I cannot speak for @wildpigcomics, but I think this is what he was referring to. The lack of Negan's death just pushed it over the edge. Build up the team, bring in a big baddie, hero/villain confrontation, some major (hero) character dies, baddie is confronted and somehow dispatched, and we start all over again. Negan felt like The Governor 2.0 and thus the stories have felt redundant.

    With that said, I'm still buying the issues (from comiXology and only when they're on sale for $1 each), every 4-6 months. I've got #139 - 147 to read here in the next couple of days. I do feel like the series has "jumped the shark," but I'm willing to plunk down a buck an issue for something even mildly entertaining. I'm not too impressed with all the superhero books out there right now anyway.
    Yeah. Just cause the new baddie is more violent and vulgar than the last isn't all that engaging or creative. In fact it's lazy and a turn off to me personally. It's also simply ridiculous imo that Negan is still alive. Don't know what they can or should do to re-energize the series but it has to be something more than just kill off a major character or up the brutality.
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,638
    Are we sure its not just the tiger? That was pretty fonzy flying over a ramp on motorcycle.
  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 879
    mwhitt80 said:

    Are we sure its not just the tiger? That was pretty fonzy flying over a ramp on motorcycle.

    Good call. I think that is a pretty silly and unbelievable element personally.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    batlaw said:

    mwhitt80 said:

    Are we sure its not just the tiger? That was pretty fonzy flying over a ramp on motorcycle.

    Good call. I think that is a pretty silly and unbelievable element personally.
    Fonzie jumping a shark did not include any motorcycle action, btw

  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 879

    batlaw said:

    mwhitt80 said:

    Are we sure its not just the tiger? That was pretty fonzy flying over a ramp on motorcycle.

    Good call. I think that is a pretty silly and unbelievable element personally.
    Fonzie jumping a shark did not include any motorcycle action, btw

    I'm referring to the pet tiger in the walking dead as being silly and unbelievable to me (is that not what you were meant?).
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,638
    edited January 2016

    batlaw said:

    mwhitt80 said:

    Are we sure its not just the tiger? That was pretty fonzy flying over a ramp on motorcycle.

    Good call. I think that is a pretty silly and unbelievable element personally.
    Fonzie jumping a shark did not include any motorcycle action, btw

    It was water skis and a boat. I've seen the 2 parter.
    I'm going with the ridiculous tiger.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    mwhitt80 said:

    batlaw said:

    mwhitt80 said:

    Are we sure its not just the tiger? That was pretty fonzy flying over a ramp on motorcycle.

    Good call. I think that is a pretty silly and unbelievable element personally.
    Fonzie jumping a shark did not include any motorcycle action, btw

    It was water skis and a boat. I've seen the 2 parter.
    I'm going with the ridiculous tiger.
    Actually, I believe it was a 3-parter...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvGopsM1G9g

    Happy Days definitely "Nuked the Fridge" with that episode
  • jaydee74jaydee74 Posts: 1,526
    I thought the ending of "All Out War" was a bit of a head scratcher. I jumped off the book after that. With the Walking Dead, I got to the point where I just became numb to all of the characters. I stopped caring about them because the chances of them dying are at least 50%. After awhile, I just stopped caring but it doesn't mean I don't think the book is not of a very high quality. I just got tired of it.
  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 879
    So I'm curious, what would folks like to actually see for a conclusion to TWD? What direction would you like to see it go in? What would be most satisfying? What if it all turned back to involving aliens as initially pitched? Should everyone die and the world end? Should they find a cure? I don't know.
  • jaydee74jaydee74 Posts: 1,526
    That's such a tough question. I can't see the world go back to what it once was. That's just me so what if it did and people can't adjust to it? That might be interesting.
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,638
    Everyone has to die right? At least everyone the story follows. Zombies over run the group and it ends.
  • hornheadhornhead Posts: 137
    edited January 2016
    I've stuck with TWD and I am through #148. The bigger issue to me at the end of All Out War was not Rick's decision not to kill Negan. It was Rick's speech to Negan where Negan seems to so easily go along with Rick's ideas, which in turn allows Rick the opportunity to wound & subdue him. THAT was the moment that to me seemed the most out of character, as opposed to Rick's decision to keep him alive.

    That said, I see why Rick's decision to keep Negan alive was a problem as well. For me, while I wasn't entirely convinced by the execution of the event in the story, I did come to see it as confirmation that there is a shred of hope left in Rick.. Rick has already built a community (albeit an imperfect one) so I felt by that point in the series he did have some faith in people restored, and he did place some some value in rising above the "kill or be killed" ethos he lived by earlier in the series. So I rolled with that controversial event a little better than many fans I guess.

    I know fans love Negan, and he was certainly a strong villain, but to me, after some initial top drawer horrifying stuff from him, I found that whole chunk of issues from about 106-108ish to the end of All Out War to be the lowest point of the series. All Out War does stand to me as an overall misfire, that still had some excitement and big moments. Those moments did keep me going, including one point where (for the second time in the whole run) I was strongly feeling that Rick would meet his end.

    Since All Out War ended, the series jumped ahead in time to a new status quo and things have REALLY become more interesting IMO. I think the time jump added a lot of mystery back to the book and it has been very revitalized in the past year or so. Negan is more interesting to me NOW than he ever was before (and remember I have yet to read the latest issue #149 and realize he surely has a big role in it).
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