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Marvel Civil War II (Spoilers)

David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
Have at it! Will join in later today.
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Comments

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.

    It could be that Marvel has made statements about the end of Civil War, perhaps of promoting some of the 2.0 stuff. I haven't personally been reading much of the announcements or press or things, but there might be things to speculate about the ending from there.

    I will ask, though (and I don't think this is what you are talking about, I just bring this up in case your talking about the ending of this event leads others to chime in on things that have leaked) that if there have been actual leaks, sort of the usual BC stuff, actually spoiling the ending of Civil War II, that we leave them out of this thread. Speculate away from the story itself, or statements/ announcements/ promos about the future, that sort of thing. But please leave out anything that is based on leaks about the ending.

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868
    Civil War II is a Bendis event. In that all the exciting stuff happens in other comics, there's a lot of talking that is in love with the rhythm of the dialogue more than making sense and he introduces a MacGuffin character that another writer will have to make work properly at a later date (see also: Daisy Johnson, Layla Miller, the resurrected Mockingbird)

    It is still better than the original Civil War.

    It's not forcing characters' personalities in knots to make them fit the two sides of an argument. And it will in all likelihood come out on time.

    Like the original Civil War, the tie-ins are usually better than the core book, and one nice touch is that they aren't necessarily directly about the question of how to use Ulysses' power, but may just be thematically tied to the idea of a "civil war".

    My favourite so far being the Miles vs. Kamala science fair showdown in Ms Marvel.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited July 2016

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    Ah. What threw me off was the idea that it spoiled the end. There will probably be another death by or at the end. I would say that Rhodey and Banner were at the beginning. The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.

    Also, despite the skillful misdirection the cover, Banner isn't green when he dies, thus the continuing theme of preventative intervention (even killing) to stop harm that is predicted to happen, but hasn't actually happened yet. In this case, honoring Banner's own request to kill him before he hulks out again, even though there is a chance it didn't have to go that way.

    I'm sure once you've read the issue you can punch up the joke if you want ;)

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    I am beginning to wonder what the point is if Marvel is just going to spoil everything the day the books come out...
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    I am beginning to wonder what the point is if Marvel is just going to spoil everything the day the books come out...

    Take this with the caveat that I went into this issue unspoiled on Banner's death. So there was suspense at play.

    But to answer the question, for me the point is the execution. The storytelling. I thought the storytelling in this issue was excellent. Much better than the prior issues of the miniseries so far. It was a great issue. I could probably go into the issue having known Banner would die and still have enjoyed it.

    Their work is not Shakespeare, so this is not a comparison looking to equate, but I don't go watch a Romeo & Juliet to find out what happens. Hell, even the original audiences would not have known the rough plot. Hamlet was a rewrite of a prior, pretty recent stage hit. R&J gives away the ending in the opening 14 lines.

    It's superhero comics. Some things will change, and then they will eventually, largely go back to the way they were. People will "die", and generally punch each other in the face. How it entertains me moment to moment while I am reading it is the point, for me.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    David_D said:

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    Ah. What threw me off was the idea that it spoiled the end. There will probably be another death by or at the end. I would say that Rhodey and Banner were at the beginning. The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.

    Also, despite the skillful misdirection the cover, Banner isn't green when he dies, thus the continuing theme of preventative intervention (even killing) to stop harm that is predicted to happen, but hasn't actually happened yet. In this case, honoring Banner's own request to kill him before he hulks out again, even though there is a chance it didn't have to go that way.

    I'm sure once you've read the issue you can punch up the joke if you want ;)

    Did Banner create the arrow? If so, I wouldn't worry. His plans & devises to "kill off" the Hulk normally fail.

    M
  • fredzillafredzilla Posts: 2,131
    David_D said:

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    Ah. What threw me off was the idea that it spoiled the end. There will probably be another death by or at the end. I would say that Rhodey and Banner were at the beginning. The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.

    Also, despite the skillful misdirection the cover, Banner isn't green when he dies, thus the continuing theme of preventative intervention (even killing) to stop harm that is predicted to happen, but hasn't actually happened yet. In this case, honoring Banner's own request to kill him before he hulks out again, even though there is a chance it didn't have to go that way.

    I'm sure once you've read the issue you can punch up the joke if you want ;)

    David_D said:

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.
    And I've read enough of Bendis' events to know it may never start, well, until maybe the last few pages, but it's mostly just a set up for the next Marvel event.

    Zing! ;)
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Matt said:

    David_D said:

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    Ah. What threw me off was the idea that it spoiled the end. There will probably be another death by or at the end. I would say that Rhodey and Banner were at the beginning. The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.

    Also, despite the skillful misdirection the cover, Banner isn't green when he dies, thus the continuing theme of preventative intervention (even killing) to stop harm that is predicted to happen, but hasn't actually happened yet. In this case, honoring Banner's own request to kill him before he hulks out again, even though there is a chance it didn't have to go that way.

    I'm sure once you've read the issue you can punch up the joke if you want ;)

    Did Banner create the arrow? If so, I wouldn't worry. His plans & devises to "kill off" the Hulk normally fail.

    M
    Oh, I'm not worried.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    David_D said:

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    Ah. What threw me off was the idea that it spoiled the end. There will probably be another death by or at the end. I would say that Rhodey and Banner were at the beginning. The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.

    Also, despite the skillful misdirection the cover, Banner isn't green when he dies, thus the continuing theme of preventative intervention (even killing) to stop harm that is predicted to happen, but hasn't actually happened yet. In this case, honoring Banner's own request to kill him before he hulks out again, even though there is a chance it didn't have to go that way.

    I'm sure once you've read the issue you can punch up the joke if you want ;)

    Did Banner create the arrow? If so, I wouldn't worry. His plans & devises to "kill off" the Hulk normally fail.

    M
    Oh, I'm not worried.
    Exactly. Unless the character's name is "Ben Parker" or "The Waynes", death is just a sabbatical.

    I blame Norman Osborne.

    M
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Matt said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    David_D said:

    David_D said:

    Didn't Marvel already spoil the ending of this series?






    ***SPOILER***


    Let's just say "a person of color" bites it, but they'll be back in a year.

    Rhodey has already died, but that was in the beginning of Civil War II. A different death in this issue. More about that later.
    Wrong color @David_D - when you know who was killed, you'll get the joke.
    Ah. What threw me off was the idea that it spoiled the end. There will probably be another death by or at the end. I would say that Rhodey and Banner were at the beginning. The Civil War hasn't even really started in earnest yet.

    Also, despite the skillful misdirection the cover, Banner isn't green when he dies, thus the continuing theme of preventative intervention (even killing) to stop harm that is predicted to happen, but hasn't actually happened yet. In this case, honoring Banner's own request to kill him before he hulks out again, even though there is a chance it didn't have to go that way.

    I'm sure once you've read the issue you can punch up the joke if you want ;)

    Did Banner create the arrow? If so, I wouldn't worry. His plans & devises to "kill off" the Hulk normally fail.

    M
    Oh, I'm not worried.
    Exactly. Unless the character's name is "Ben Parker" or "The Waynes", death is just a sabbatical.

    I blame Norman Osborne.

    M
    Or, in a way, in Big 2 comics death is just another kind of story tell. (And retell.)

    Nice to be fictional, that way. To be and not to be and to be again.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    It was. Now it just seems like an attempt for shock value. At this point, death only seems to be a year or two. Foster is seemingly the only character in Marvel in the last 20 years who's death lasted more then a few years.

    It does have me wondering if the ramifications for bringing back Ben or the Waynes are too grand to make them return? I'm talking for more then say, a five year span.

    M
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Matt said:

    It was. Now it just seems like an attempt for shock value. At this point, death only seems to be a year or two. Foster is seemingly the only character in Marvel in the last 20 years who's death lasted more then a few years.

    It does have me wondering if the ramifications for bringing back Ben or the Waynes are too grand to make them return? I'm talking for more then say, a five year span.

    M

    Regarding the Marvel character deaths, I would say yes and no. It is certainly not forever, but there have been some examples of some character deaths that have lasted longer than even we of the Death of Superman generation would have expected.

    Jean Grey, the real one, has been dead for almost 15 years now. Already longer than she was between Dark Phoenix Saga and X-Factor back in the '80s. The character recently returned, but it is the young Jean Grey, the time traveler. The version with all that prior history is still gone. Professor X dies a lot. But the most recent one is going on almost 5 years now, and it feels like the X-Men have moved on in such a way that it might stick this time, or at least, stick for longer than usual. There are probably others I could think of, but those come to mind first.

    So, of course, a character death is just a story (because if you are a character-based entertainment company there is usually little reason to throw away your assets), and rebirths are part of that cycle. But sometimes it is not as quick as just a year or two.
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,637
    Matt said:


    It does have me wondering if the ramifications for bringing back Ben or the Waynes are too grand to make them return? I'm talking for more then say, a five year span.

    M

    Those deaths are the core of two billion dollar properties. I don't think Disney or WB can afford to really monkey with that.

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Captain Marvel and Ben Parker have stayed dead for a while. Other than that, I got nothin...
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,637
    Is Captain Marvel out of the comics again or is he still back? I know during Civil War 1 he got pulled out of the time stream and into the present, but other than being asked to be Super Warden of hero jail, did he do anything?
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868
    edited July 2016
    mwhitt80 said:

    Is Captain Marvel out of the comics again or is he still back? I know during Civil War 1 he got pulled out of the time stream and into the present, but other than being asked to be Super Warden of hero jail, did he do anything?

    He turned out to be a Skrull called Khn'nr. Then he died too, fighting the other Skrulls in Secret Invasion, inspiring Noh-Varr to become Captain Marvel (and apparently forget all his established powers and history until Young Avengers).
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,637
    Ohh yeah. I sort of remember that now.

    Boy Secret Invasion was a mess of an event. It didn't even make sense. Reed Richards and the other 3 members of the FF have defeated (by themselves) galaxies of Skulls at thier intergalactic peak, but 3/4s of the FF and the rest of Marvel's heroes barely save Earth? And the only reason that the good guys win is Deadpool? Come on.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    mwhitt80 said:

    Ohh yeah. I sort of remember that now.

    Boy Secret Invasion was a mess of an event. It didn't even make sense. Reed Richards and the other 3 members of the FF have defeated (by themselves) galaxies of Skulls at thier intergalactic peak, but 3/4s of the FF and the rest of Marvel's heroes barely save Earth? And the only reason that the good guys win is Deadpool? Come on.

    Think how cool that series could've been if it touched upon decades of continuity.

    M
  • CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,178
    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    It was. Now it just seems like an attempt for shock value. At this point, death only seems to be a year or two. Foster is seemingly the only character in Marvel in the last 20 years who's death lasted more then a few years.

    It does have me wondering if the ramifications for bringing back Ben or the Waynes are too grand to make them return? I'm talking for more then say, a five year span.

    M

    Regarding the Marvel character deaths, I would say yes and no. It is certainly not forever, but there have been some examples of some character deaths that have lasted longer than even we of the Death of Superman generation would have expected.

    Jean Grey, the real one, has been dead for almost 15 years now. Already longer than she was between Dark Phoenix Saga and X-Factor back in the '80s. The character recently returned, but it is the young Jean Grey, the time traveler. The version with all that prior history is still gone. Professor X dies a lot. But the most recent one is going on almost 5 years now, and it feels like the X-Men have moved on in such a way that it might stick this time, or at least, stick for longer than usual. There are probably others I could think of, but those come to mind first.

    So, of course, a character death is just a story (because if you are a character-based entertainment company there is usually little reason to throw away your assets), and rebirths are part of that cycle. But sometimes it is not as quick as just a year or two.
    "Professor X dies a lot"

    understatement and unintenional comedy.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    It was. Now it just seems like an attempt for shock value. At this point, death only seems to be a year or two. Foster is seemingly the only character in Marvel in the last 20 years who's death lasted more then a few years.

    It does have me wondering if the ramifications for bringing back Ben or the Waynes are too grand to make them return? I'm talking for more then say, a five year span.

    M

    Regarding the Marvel character deaths, I would say yes and no. It is certainly not forever, but there have been some examples of some character deaths that have lasted longer than even we of the Death of Superman generation would have expected.

    Jean Grey, the real one, has been dead for almost 15 years now. Already longer than she was between Dark Phoenix Saga and X-Factor back in the '80s. The character recently returned, but it is the young Jean Grey, the time traveler. The version with all that prior history is still gone. Professor X dies a lot. But the most recent one is going on almost 5 years now, and it feels like the X-Men have moved on in such a way that it might stick this time, or at least, stick for longer than usual. There are probably others I could think of, but those come to mind first.

    So, of course, a character death is just a story (because if you are a character-based entertainment company there is usually little reason to throw away your assets), and rebirths are part of that cycle. But sometimes it is not as quick as just a year or two.
    "Professor X dies a lot"

    understatement and unintenional comedy.
    Oh, believe me. I know.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Looks like Skottie Young spoiled this issue a few months ago... very clever :)

    image
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    Looks like Skottie Young spoiled this issue a few months ago... very clever :)

    image

    That's great.
  • fredzillafredzilla Posts: 2,131
    I saw spoilers on Facebook from BBC and Comic Book Resources this morning (Thursday) about this. Granted, I came here and was spoiled (it really doesn't bother me), and I can understand BBC spoiling it as they're a big news organization and could give a rat's patoot about the fanboys, but CBR spoiling this was too much. They had a headline that said some major character dies in Civil War II #3 with a picture of the Hulk. They didn't spell it out, but most people with a brain cell could probably put two-and-two together. Seeing as I cannot read an article on their website without being prompted to sign up for their newsletter, I've since stopped following CBR on the book of faces. They're about as bad as Newsarama (or was, I've avoided them for years because I can only take so many top 10 lists). I mostly avoid Bleeding Cool now too.
  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 879
    Well other than the zero issue I read a while back, I've finally read cwII 1,2 and choosing sides 1. Wow. Choosing sides was awful and the main cw book is not very good imo. Quite disappointed. And I was probably the only person interested in it too.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    This was a really strange and, ultimately, unsuccessful event, I think.

    And I say that as someone who, on the whole, tends to dig event books. And have liked most of the past Bendis events.

    I think the first thing that didn't help was the title. I would have preferred if this had been its own thing. I think calling it Civil War II set too big of an expectation, and the wrong expectation.

    I like the central concept- an exploration of the superpower of precognition that leads to a sort of Philip K. Dick precrime story about whether or not to use this tool/ the dangers of using it. But I feel like this never got as nuanced as it could have. And it would have been nice if there was more that helped bolster Captain Marvel's point of view. It just felt like the argument was stacked against her from the start.

    I think the best issue was the trial of Hawkeye one, with the court case and the fallout. That was excellent. And I liked the idea of Banner and Clint having this arrangement.

    But by the end of the story, it was hard to remember that even happened in this story. It felt ancillary and, to my memory, by the end of the story Tony and Carol were mostly yelling at each other about Rhodey, and Spider-Man stuff, and most everyone had forgotten that Banner dying even happened.

    I also think part of it that weakened it for me is that I just don't give a damn about the Inhumans. It feels like they are getting a huge push all over the MU, and I find them a boring nostalgia act. So it didn't help, for me, that they had a big role in this.

    And stretching things to an 8th issue, once we got that (pretty terrible) 8th issue felt unnecessary. I think they could have had a larger 7th issue and wrapped things up on the original plan. That final issue was a lot of treading water and house ads for future stories.

    And that conversation between Hank and Carol, and the attempt to talk after the sale about what this series was supposed to mean, and how it is 'ripped from the headlines' was painful because, at the end of the day, this wasn't actually profiling. Profiling is a thing, but it is a very different thing. Whether or not you believe and act upon superhuman precognition is just not an analogue for profiling. Maybe a point could be made about modeling? But the attempt to make that connection rang false for me.

    So . . . that happened. I know Marvel is having a down time right now. There are still a number of Marvel books, mostly solo characters, I really enjoy. And the Star Wars line of books continue to be fantastic. But this event was a high profile dud in my book. Here's hoping the Monsters one (I forget what it is called) is some light fun.

    Anyone else stick with this to the end? What'd you think?

  • CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,178
    edited January 2017
    I have not been reading it and I did not even know it was still happening. I thought it concluded 2 or 3 months ago.

    From an overall event standpoint, I think this came a little too soon after Secret Wars. Marvel events are starting to blur together with me.

  • fredzillafredzilla Posts: 2,131
    I've got issue 8 waiting for me. Very forgettable book for me thus far. I shoulda known better on a Bendis event book. I thought I learned my lesson with House of M.

    Oh we'll, Marvel. Fool me once, shame on me; fool me 616 times... *sigh*
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868
    It wasn't that good. And yet it was still better than the original Civil War and all previous Bendis events.

    The allegory worked better than Civil War's. The people on the opposing sides of the argument made more sense than Civil War's. The use of the series for tie-ins worked better, for example, you wouldn't have got a Ms. Marvel vs. Spider-Man science fair competition story out of the first Civil War.

    The action started mid series rather than in the last issue, which is a remarkable improvement for Bendis. And unlike Siege, his previous best, it had some room to breathe.

    However, it had the usual problems of a Bendis team comic in places, where all forward momentum disappears in the delight of writing dialogue.

    The ending is nigh non-existent, merely setting the stage for new comics, some of which are already on their second issue.

    There's moments where it feels like he's not reading any other Marvel comics currently running.

    It ran too long and too late.

    And once again, he relies on the crutch of SCENES OF THINGS YET TO COME. Some of which we've seen before when he did this years ago (though this time the Martian Invaders scene has Killraven's number one fan Alan Davis drawing it).

    And on top of Bendis' inherent weaknesses, it's also guilty of the number one crime in Marvel today TALKING ABOUT THE INHUMANS LIKE THEY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE LINE. Which is an insult to the readers who know they aren't. Try writing a great Inhumans comic first, Marvel.
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