I don’t really think so. If he’s so wracked with guilt that he’s willing to go to war with friends to relieve himself of responsibility for disastrous consequences of combat, plus having just learned that very lesson the hard way. Not mention he’s certainly well aware of the horrors and uncertainties of combat. Yeah he can be reasonably confident his opponents will exercise restraint, but shit happens... look at Rhodes.
I disagree. Again, I never saw it as Tony having the intent to get Peter into a fight. I’m not convinced Tony thought there’d be an actual fight. If so, he would’ve followed up to get Vision there...at which time he’d know about Wanda’s escape. Plus, Peter was specifically told to stay back.
I took me awhile to really collect my thoughts on why I hated this movie so much and will never give my money to see another Disney Star Wars movie.
It's not that they killed off our heroes , Han and Luke, it's that they told us that they didn't matter. That they were broken old men who failed in their naive attempt to make the universe a better place. They were broken and sad and lost and without hope. There was no generational passing of the baton, and no joy, as there was for Luke and old Ben.
The fact that Luke is a "symbol" for the future doesn't change that that symbol was based on a myth, a falsehood, and that Luke died a broken man with no hope. This was antithetical to Lucas vision of healing the generational 60s divide and bringing hope. The world is already bad enough, I don't need Star Wars to offer no hope for change.
Moreover, to Keep Leia alive as a character when Carrie Fisher died, is metaphorically akin to holding onto her corpse. Its crass and gross. Leia should have died in this film.
Then add to it that it was too obviously preachy on gender and consciously humiliated the Poe character by the purple haired kindergarten teacher turned mean spirited Admiral, that Rey (total Mary Sue) didn't even need to learn a thing from Luke (she can already defeat Jedi Masters, move boulders, and beat Ren), and that even Rose (most annoying Star Wars character ever imo) throws Finn to the back of the Falcon so she can drive. We get it, we get it. But to establish your new characters, did you really need to destroy the old?
It also made no sense as a film--Luke makes a map but doesn't want to be found so he can die? Luke was about to commit suicide at the beginning in his jedi robes? They weaponize hyperspace? Oh, if that's the case, who needs Death Star plans and trench runs, just fire up a sizable ship, single pilot it, and do a 9-11 on the Death Star!
Overall, it was a mean spirited film that ruined the good spirit of Star Wars and committed character assassination of Luke Skywalker. As Mark Hamil said, The Last Jedi is NOT his or our Luke.
We get the message - move on and let go of the past. Okay, I will. Last Jedi equals the last Star Wars for me. It's over. I'm going to take my memory of Luke and Han and Leia as they should be and the millenials can have Rose and Finn. It's over. New hope is gone. Peace out. A long time Star war fan letting it go and not coming back.
I just started Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (Book 3 in the series!) and am loving the Potterverse. Feels great to invest in a huge franchise which doesn't make me feel unwanted and miserable. Current plan is to read all the books, see all the movies, visit the Wizarding World here in L.A. - then next year, start on the "Dr. Who" franchise. Then the Tolkein books/movies. Then?... who knows. But franchises like these will get all the money I would've given to future Disney Star Wars, which I am officially done with.
I just started Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (Book 3 in the series!) and am loving the Potterverse. Feels great to invest in a huge franchise which doesn't make me feel unwanted and miserable. Current plan is to read all the books, see all the movies, visit the Wizarding World here in L.A. - then next year, start on the "Dr. Who" franchise. Then the Tolkein books/movies. Then?... who knows. But franchises like these will get all the money I would've given to future Disney Star Wars, which I am officially done with.
I’m with ya. Not about Harry Potter or Dr. Who, as I have zero interest in either, but being cast aside by companies. Back in the day, I took a business course in college where we discussed 20/80 customers. The bulk of your business (80%) comes from the loyal patrons (20%). The challenge is increasing the 20% of sales from the 80% of your patrons without losing the bulk of your business from the 20%.
I first saw that with the relaunched Knight Rider. Rather then run with the original concept of “the Lone Ranger with a car,” they copied Viper...which was birthed out of Knight Rider. Despite being a die-hard fan of the original series, I jumped ship just as they revamped the show (for the 2nd time) to resemble the original series. That was too little too late, as the series was canceled thereafter.
I was opened to the idea of the relaunch of MacGyver until I realized it retooled as a Mission Impossible team. Aside from the initial trailer, I haven’t watched a second of the series.
I was reading there’s discussions to bring back the A-Team, but retooled as a male/female team. Apparently, we live in an era where an all woman main cast is okay, but an all male main cast isn’t. If this comes to fruition, I won’t even watch the trailer.
In an attempt to expand the viewership of each show, each series ran the risk of losing the die-hard fans of the original shows. I contend if you can’t get the backing of the original fans, it’s an uphill climb from day one.
I just started Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (Book 3 in the series!) and am loving the Potterverse. Feels great to invest in a huge franchise which doesn't make me feel unwanted and miserable. Current plan is to read all the books, see all the movies, visit the Wizarding World here in L.A. - then next year, start on the "Dr. Who" franchise. Then the Tolkein books/movies. Then?... who knows. But franchises like these will get all the money I would've given to future Disney Star Wars, which I am officially done with.
Fair warning/ super mild spoiler: There is an interspecies milking bit at the beginning of Goblet Of Fire.
(Not a major plot point or anything, it just cones to mind as I was listening to it for the first time the other day).
I’m with ya. Not about Harry Potter or Dr. Who, as I have zero interest in either, but being cast aside by companies. Back in the day, I took a business course in college where we discussed 20/80 customers. The bulk of your business (80%) comes from the loyal patrons (20%). The challenge is increasing the 20% of sales from the 80% of your patrons without losing the bulk of your business from the 20%....
In an attempt to expand the viewership of each show, each series ran the risk of losing the die-hard fans of the original shows. I contend if you can’t get the backing of the original fans, it’s an uphill climb from day one.
That "20/80 customers" concept is interesting, I've never heard that. It's going to be even more relevant and applicable to Hollywood over the next few years, as we enter an era filled with more IP reboots than ever before.
Bionic Dave, I think you made some great points on this thread and I can see how loudly expressing your dissatisfaction with a film may help lead to a course correction, however, I think the importance of box office on course corrections cannot be overstated. In the case of Man of Steel and BvS, I think the indisputably "underwhelming" box offices had the studio asking "why are these films not doing the kind of business we expect it to?" And look to the critiques and then course correct when they hear all these complaints about the film's being too dark and humorless (and they were imo).
For example, Suicide Squad was absolutely demolished by critics and fans alike, but it did much better than expected box office wise and the studio hasn't course corrected on anything Suicide Squad related since its release -at least from what I've heard. The studio is ready to commit to everything suicide squad. In addition to a sequel, and a potential Deadshot movie, there is a Harley Quinn movie and even a Leto as Joker film even though I've never read or heard anyone speak excitedly about the Leto as the Joker performance. At best I've heard people say "he wasn't that bad" or "he was good for what it was".
Unfortunately, Last Jedi was a massive smash - so big that despite its enormously polarizing effect on fans, Rian Johnson was granted the keys to his very own trilogy. (Although I heard he was given this before the film even came out, I would imagine a bad box office would've resulted in a course correction.) Of course Lucasfilm only put the brakes on once Solo "underwhelmed" as they now try to figure out what went "wrong".
I assume the lessons they're going to draw from the critiques is that fans want more "different" style Star Wars, but that's going to directly contradict the box office lessons offered by the enormous success of The Force Awakens so maybe they'll just reconsider spin offs? Star Wars "fatigue"? The polarizing effect of last Jedi? I don't envy anyone trying to untangle what went wrong there.
By the way, I liked parts of Last Jedi but I do agree that there was plenty to dislike in it and those who ascribe "sexist/racist" motivations to those who hated it are really reaching. While I have no doubt that 5 trolls are going to be enough for social media/ "social justice" writers looking for click bait to glibly and broadly paint "fanboys" as a whole with sexist/racist agendas, I can't take it seriously as it completely ignores the overwhelming "fanboy" love for the first film. Fanboys mostly praised TFA but they suddenly became racist and sexist for Last Jedi?? And also paid to see Last Jedi?? Are they no longer racist and sexist now that they failed to turn out for Solo? IMO these racist/sexist arguments are increasingly -lazily and self-servingly - reached for whenever PC extremists are having trouble understanding why any perceived large group of males/white males are not reacting to something with the level of adoration they believe it merits. And I say this as a liberal.
Last Jedi is littered with story problems, not least of which was Luke behaving totally out of character, doubling down on Rey's "Mary Sue"-ness and coming up with a storyline for Finn that just reeks of "I don't know what to do with this character" contrivance. That anyone should marvel that others were unhappy with it (or any work of art) is the real head scratcher. Johnson created something that was often unpredictable, no matter how unsatisfying or out of character it would feel to many.
Bionic Dave, I think you made some great points on this thread and I can see how loudly expressing your dissatisfaction with a film may help lead to a course correction, however, I think the importance of box office on course corrections cannot be overstated. In the case of Man of Steel and BvS, I think the indisputably "underwhelming" box offices had the studio asking "why are these films not doing the kind of business we expect it to?" And look to the critiques and then course correct when they hear all these complaints about the film's being too dark and humorless (and they were imo).
For example, Suicide Squad was absolutely demolished by critics and fans alike, but it did much better than expected box office wise and the studio hasn't course corrected on anything Suicide Squad related since its release -at least from what I've heard. The studio is ready to commit to everything suicide squad. In addition to a sequel, and a potential Deadshot movie, there is a Harley Quinn movie and even a Leto as Joker film even though I've never read or heard anyone speak excitedly about the Leto as the Joker performance. At best I've heard people say "he wasn't that bad" or "he was good for what it was".
Unfortunately, Last Jedi was a massive smash - so big that despite its enormously polarizing effect on fans, Rian Johnson was granted the keys to his very own trilogy. (Although I heard he was given this before the film even came out, I would imagine a bad box office would've resulted in a course correction.) Of course Lucasfilm only put the brakes on once Solo "underwhelmed" as they now try to figure out what went "wrong".
I assume the lessons they're going to draw from the critiques is that fans want more "different" style Star Wars, but that's going to directly contradict the box office lessons offered by the enormous success of The Force Awakens so maybe they'll just reconsider spin offs? Star Wars "fatigue"? The polarizing effect of last Jedi? I don't envy anyone trying to untangle what went wrong there.
By the way, I liked parts of Last Jedi but I do agree that there was plenty to dislike in it and those who ascribe "sexist/racist" motivations to those who hated it are really reaching. While I have no doubt that 5 trolls are going to be enough for social media/ "social justice" writers looking for click bait to glibly and broadly paint "fanboys" as a whole with sexist/racist agendas, I can't take it seriously as it completely ignores the overwhelming "fanboy" love for the first film. Fanboys mostly praised TFA but they suddenly became racist and sexist for Last Jedi?? And also paid to see Last Jedi?? Are they no longer racist and sexist now that they failed to turn out for Solo? IMO these racist/sexist arguments are increasingly -lazily and self-servingly - reached for whenever PC extremists are having trouble understanding why any perceived large group of males/white males are not reacting to something with the level of adoration they believe it merits. And I say this as a liberal.
Last Jedi is littered with story problems, not least of which was Luke behaving totally out of character, doubling down on Rey's "Mary Sue"-ness and coming up with a storyline for Finn that just reeks of "I don't know what to do with this character" contrivance. That anyone should marvel that others were unhappy with it (or any work of art) is the real head scratcher. Johnson created something that was often unpredictable, no matter how unsatisfying or out of character it would feel to many.
Unfortunately, we’re living in an age when people go for the lowhanging fruits of “sexist” & “racist”. People hand those labels out like they’re fliers for a show. It’s an easy way to discredit & dismiss someone. Not to say actual racists & sexists don’t exist; that’d be a stupid notion. I think people are too quick to throw those labels out that it waters down actual narrowminded idiots. Apparently, it’s one of the acceptable blanket statements we can make.
I read an article where idiots used racial slurs to attack the actress who played Rose. Don’t get me wrong, I found her character & the side adventure to be worthless in TLJ. That has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the actress. It felt like a tie-in story used to increase the time of a short story.
I had more an issue with the “1%-ers” aspect not the side adventure. I do find it interesting Rose’s solution to that planet was to destroy it. Not sure violence against the “1%-ers” is the best message to put out there.
Matt, I couldn't agree more. The New Left (and I say this as a liberal) has created an atmosphere where every white male should be terrified to publicly share an opinion on anything race/gender related, while simultaneously fostering an atmosphere where it's not only acceptable, but considered praise-worthy by many on the New Left to point out how awful males/whites are. The New Left has no problem with racism/ sexism as long as it's directed at the groups they deem appropriate. Their only justification for any of it is the utterly arbitrary exemption that only whites/ males can be racist or sexist. How convenient. Of course the handful of idiots attacking Rose or Finn for their race only convinces New Leftists that their gross generalizations and stereotypes about whites/males are totally right.
There's a great op-Ed piece in the Washington Post by feminist Cathy Young titled "Feminists Treat Men Badly" that's worth a read. Sorry I don't know how to cut and paste links on an iPad.
Unfortunately, Last Jedi was a massive smash - so big that despite its enormously polarizing effect on fans, Rian Johnson was granted the keys to his very own trilogy. (Although I heard he was given this before the film even came out, I would imagine a bad box office would've resulted in a course correction.) Of course Lucasfilm only put the brakes on once Solo "underwhelmed" as they now try to figure out what went "wrong"...
Actually, "The Last Jedi" made noticeably less than what Disney/Lucasfilm and market analysts had expected. Plus its toy/merch sales were dreadful - and its blu-ray business has also been markedly bad. Those things have nothing to do with any 'Star Wars Fatigue' defense; that's all on this particular movie, itself.
And while no one can know for sure exactly how much / or how little TLJ's reception had to do with "Solo" bombing at the box office? I do know that the reason I didn't see "Solo" had everything to do with TLJ. I think a lot of fans felt like me. Had I not been so soured by Rian Johnson's film, I'd have seen "Solo" at least twice. I'd have bought at least some merch for souvenir purposes, and would've contributed to the online conversation about it (which is 2018-speak for 'free promotion for the studio'). But instead, I skipped this film - the only major Star Wars project I ever have skipped - and it taught me how easy it was to do so.
@BionicDave, I did not know TLJ had not performed to expectations. I had heard it performed only second to TFA, but I'm happy to read it underwhelmed in any sense since I also had problems with what Johnson did with it and especially Luke.
For what it's worth, you may still enjoy Solo on DVD. I liked it less than TLJ (except for its last 15 minutes which I loved), but it wasn't because Ron Howard decided to make Han bear no resemblance to the Han we've known in every other film. (Which is ironic since he was played by another actor.)
Comments
It's not that they killed off our heroes , Han and Luke, it's that they told us that they didn't matter. That they were broken old men who failed in their naive attempt to make the universe a better place. They were broken and sad and lost and without hope. There was no generational passing of the baton, and no joy, as there was for Luke and old Ben.
The fact that Luke is a "symbol" for the future doesn't change that that symbol was based on a myth, a falsehood, and that Luke died a broken man with no hope. This was antithetical to Lucas vision of healing the generational 60s divide and bringing hope. The world is already bad enough, I don't need Star Wars to offer no hope for change.
Moreover, to Keep Leia alive as a character when Carrie Fisher died, is metaphorically akin to holding onto her corpse. Its crass and gross. Leia should have died in this film.
Then add to it that it was too obviously preachy on gender and consciously humiliated the Poe character by the purple haired kindergarten teacher turned mean spirited Admiral, that Rey (total Mary Sue) didn't even need to learn a thing from Luke (she can already defeat Jedi Masters, move boulders, and beat Ren), and that even Rose (most annoying Star Wars character ever imo) throws Finn to the back of the Falcon so she can drive. We get it, we get it. But to establish your new characters, did you really need to destroy the old?
It also made no sense as a film--Luke makes a map but doesn't want to be found so he can die? Luke was about to commit suicide at the beginning in his jedi robes? They weaponize hyperspace? Oh, if that's the case, who needs Death Star plans and trench runs, just fire up a sizable ship, single pilot it, and do a 9-11 on the Death Star!
Overall, it was a mean spirited film that ruined the good spirit of Star Wars and committed character assassination of Luke Skywalker. As Mark Hamil said, The Last Jedi is NOT his or our Luke.
We get the message - move on and let go of the past. Okay, I will. Last Jedi equals the last Star Wars for me. It's over. I'm going to take my memory of Luke and Han and Leia as they should be and the millenials can have Rose and Finn. It's over. New hope is gone. Peace out. A long time Star war fan letting it go and not coming back.
I first saw that with the relaunched Knight Rider. Rather then run with the original concept of “the Lone Ranger with a car,” they copied Viper...which was birthed out of Knight Rider. Despite being a die-hard fan of the original series, I jumped ship just as they revamped the show (for the 2nd time) to resemble the original series. That was too little too late, as the series was canceled thereafter.
I was opened to the idea of the relaunch of MacGyver until I realized it retooled as a Mission Impossible team. Aside from the initial trailer, I haven’t watched a second of the series.
I was reading there’s discussions to bring back the A-Team, but retooled as a male/female team. Apparently, we live in an era where an all woman main cast is okay, but an all male main cast isn’t. If this comes to fruition, I won’t even watch the trailer.
In an attempt to expand the viewership of each show, each series ran the risk of losing the die-hard fans of the original shows. I contend if you can’t get the backing of the original fans, it’s an uphill climb from day one.
(Not a major plot point or anything, it just cones to mind as I was listening to it for the first time the other day).
For example, Suicide Squad was absolutely demolished by critics and fans alike, but it did much better than expected box office wise and the studio hasn't course corrected on anything Suicide Squad related since its release -at least from what I've heard. The studio is ready to commit to everything suicide squad. In addition to a sequel, and a potential Deadshot movie, there is a Harley Quinn movie and even a Leto as Joker film even though I've never read or heard anyone speak excitedly about the Leto as the Joker performance. At best I've heard people say "he wasn't that bad" or "he was good for what it was".
Unfortunately, Last Jedi was a massive smash - so big that despite its enormously polarizing effect on fans, Rian Johnson was granted the keys to his very own trilogy. (Although I heard he was given this before the film even came out, I would imagine a bad box office would've resulted in a course correction.) Of course Lucasfilm only put the brakes on once Solo "underwhelmed" as they now try to figure out what went "wrong".
I assume the lessons they're going to draw from the critiques is that fans want more "different" style Star Wars, but that's going to directly contradict the box office lessons offered by the enormous success of The Force Awakens so maybe they'll just reconsider spin offs? Star Wars "fatigue"? The polarizing effect of last Jedi? I don't envy anyone trying to untangle what went wrong there.
By the way, I liked parts of Last Jedi but I do agree that there was plenty to dislike in it and those who ascribe "sexist/racist" motivations to those who hated it are really reaching. While I have no doubt that 5 trolls are going to be enough for social media/ "social justice" writers looking for click bait to glibly and broadly paint "fanboys" as a whole with sexist/racist agendas, I can't take it seriously as it completely ignores the overwhelming "fanboy" love for the first film. Fanboys mostly praised TFA but they suddenly became racist and sexist for Last Jedi?? And also paid to see Last Jedi?? Are they no longer racist and sexist now that they failed to turn out for Solo? IMO these racist/sexist arguments are increasingly -lazily and self-servingly - reached for whenever PC extremists are having trouble understanding why any perceived large group of males/white males are not reacting to something with the level of adoration they believe it merits. And I say this as a liberal.
Last Jedi is littered with story problems, not least of which was Luke behaving totally out of character, doubling down on Rey's "Mary Sue"-ness and coming up with a storyline for Finn that just reeks of "I don't know what to do with this character" contrivance. That anyone should marvel that others were unhappy with it (or any work of art) is the real head scratcher. Johnson created something that was often unpredictable, no matter how unsatisfying or out of character it would feel to many.
I read an article where idiots used racial slurs to attack the actress who played Rose. Don’t get me wrong, I found her character & the side adventure to be worthless in TLJ. That has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the actress. It felt like a tie-in story used to increase the time of a short story.
I had more an issue with the “1%-ers” aspect not the side adventure. I do find it interesting Rose’s solution to that planet was to destroy it. Not sure violence against the “1%-ers” is the best message to put out there.
There's a great op-Ed piece in the Washington Post by feminist Cathy Young titled "Feminists Treat Men Badly" that's worth a read. Sorry I don't know how to cut and paste links on an iPad.
And while no one can know for sure exactly how much / or how little TLJ's reception had to do with "Solo" bombing at the box office? I do know that the reason I didn't see "Solo" had everything to do with TLJ. I think a lot of fans felt like me. Had I not been so soured by Rian Johnson's film, I'd have seen "Solo" at least twice. I'd have bought at least some merch for souvenir purposes, and would've contributed to the online conversation about it (which is 2018-speak for 'free promotion for the studio'). But instead, I skipped this film - the only major Star Wars project I ever have skipped - and it taught me how easy it was to do so.
For what it's worth, you may still enjoy Solo on DVD. I liked it less than TLJ (except for its last 15 minutes which I loved), but it wasn't because Ron Howard decided to make Han bear no resemblance to the Han we've known in every other film. (Which is ironic since he was played by another actor.)