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Avengers Endgame (Spoilers. Seen it? Discuss it here!)

Hey, thanks to timezones I get to start one of these!

Anyway, it's far too long. But for a lot of it is a very long Ant-Man film, so not all bad.

The good news is that the characters who have essentially outstayed their welcome are written out. And the two other characters written out, we already know are coming back from other announcements elsewhere.

6/10, might have been 7/10 but the projection was so dim, and so many scenes are darkly lit to begin with it detracted from the film.
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Comments

  • MihawkMihawk Posts: 380
    Saw it, I liked it. I'll collect my thoughts for a deeper discussion. But a Spoiler on the Ending.
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    I don't want anyone taking up the mantle of Captain America, sorry I like Falcon but no, either Steve Rogers is Captain America or no one is.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    Just finished. A lot to unpack from it. I’d need to think about it for a while before delving into a review.

  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    Do you think they are planning a Young Avengers, what with ageing Cassie up into her late teens and bringing Harley from Iron Man 3 back for a cameo that leaves you wondering who that random teenager is at Tony's funeral? It's probably easier to have him be "Iron Lad" than try to explain 4 decades of Kang-tinuity.

    And reportedly they are introducing Kate Bishop in the Hawkeye mini-series.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    The more I think about, the less Steve Rogers' ending makes sense given the explanation The Ancient One gives Hulk. Though as we never see him returning the stones, I guess you can just No-Prize it.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    I think it makes sense. We never see who Peggy married, he could’ve always been in a time loop, & he could’ve realized for them to win, Steve could never alter any history. He would just need it to unfold as it did or risk Thanos winning. He’d still be the “man out of time,” though just from the future.

    Sam getting the shield is something kinda not sitting well with me. It’s nice to know that old Steve could still pop up in the Disney+ series. Plus, they know how to de-age him.

    I thought the “lady team up” moment in Infinity War was great. I thought it was a little forced in Endgame.

    Thor’s appearance bothered me too. I was hoping by “charging up” with both hammers, he’d morph back into his old body. Instead beer belly Thor went into battle.

  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    edited April 26
    Matt said:

    I think it makes sense. We never see who Peggy married, he could’ve always been in a time loop, & he could’ve realized for them to win, Steve could never alter any history. He would just need it to unfold as it did or risk Thanos winning. He’d still be the “man out of time,” though just from the future.

    It's not that, it's that according to The Ancient One's explanation he'd be getting old in an alternate reality.

    Returning the stones wasn't to make sure time played out as intended, it was to not screw over the 4 alternate universes they'd created during their time travel by permanently stealing their Infinity Stones.

    Now because we never saw how Steve returned the stones, it's possible he's returned to the core universe by some other means after Peggy died in 2016.

    And thinking about it... 3 of those universes would also have to go through all of IW/EG again as only the 2014 one is missing a Thanos. And one of those (71?) would have been the universe with Steve in.

    So probably best to do that all off screen and hand wave it, otherwise you have to think of an infinite branching tree of Endgame happening again and again.

    Also given that there were technically two Steves in the timeline he went back to there was a missed opportunity to do a homage to a film that set the table for mid-credit scenes.

    image
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    I’ll have to rewatch the movie. I thought the branches only occurred if the stones weren’t returned. I think the group should’ve gone to the Collector when The Guardians were bringing the Power Stone to him. They could’ve gotten the Reality Stone & Power stones in one spot.

  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    edited April 26
    Matt said:

    I’ll have to rewatch the movie. I thought the branches only occurred if the stones weren’t returned. I think the group should’ve gone to the Collector when The Guardians were bringing the Power Stone to him. They could’ve gotten the Reality Stone & Power stones in one spot.

    Honestly the Soul Stone makes a nonsense of "returning the stones" in the first place. How do you return something that doesn't exist until you sacrifice a loved one? And how would Cap react when he gets to that planet and sees the Red Skull there?
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    I was wondering if returning it meant Nat would return. I circle back a lot of this to Steve knowing if he doesn’t do anything with the stones or interferes with the past when he reunites with Peggy, Thanos wins. He can’t alter anything (which goes to being in his own timeloop theory) without ensuring a Thanos win.

  • SPOILER THOUGHTS AHEAD!!

    Oh, I'm so glad this thread is here. What a great movie!

    Few thoughts and questions:

    The kid at the back of of the line after the Guardians at Tony's was the kid from Iron Man 3 (This was one of the first things I looked for. Many people said this, one said the actor name is credits confirmed this. Another said his character's name was Harley. I don't have a good enough memory to know if that's right)

    So is Loki alive? He took the briefcase content and was never mentioned again. Did his leaving create a new reality, or not?

    How are they doing a Wanda/Vision series on Disney+?

    Will Far From Home be set 5 years in the future? Also, with Peter and Aunt May at Tony's, how does Peter explain to Aunt May everything without telling her he's Spider-man?

    Will they be changing the title of The Falcon/Winter Soldier series for Disney+?

    I didn't know what Jim Starlin looked like (I do know. Thanks Google!) but I saw him listed as having a cameo. Anyone know where he was? I want to look for him on next viewing.

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    It was him; Harley Keener is the kid’s name.

    May knows Pete is Spider-Man. She found out at the end of Homecoming. Also, in the initial Far from Home trailer, it’s May who puts the suit into Peter’s luggage.

    Starlin has a beard. He’s in the coping group Cap hosts. It also has one of the directors, Joe Russo, in the group. Joe plays the MCU’s First openly gay character.

  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    edited April 28
    Matt said:
    Once I figured out who he was, and the fact they brought him back and not Sharon Carter, made me think they've got a Young Avengers pitch they're working on.

    You could have Harley as Iron Lad instead of a young Kang (or if you're being ambitious, his future self is also Kang, we've got a time machine now after all), you've got a Cassie Lang who's old enough to be Stature now, and reportedly we're getting Kate Bishop introduced in a Hawkeye mini-series.

    You could probably introduce Billy and Tommy in WandaVision, Patriot in the Sam & Bucky series. Maybe even get Kid Loki out of the Loki series?

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    Starting Phase 4 (well, the epilogue to Phase 3 is on the bubble) I’m going to get more selective on what I watch. Young Avengers is probably a pass for me.

    It was cool Jarvis (James D’arcy) made an appearance. Glad Agent Carter got a nod...still wish it’d return to tv.

  • I wonder if they would bring back Agent Carter on Disney+. Maybe it wasn't a big enough audience for ABC, but I know I'm getting Disney+ for all the Marvel content and I would definitely watch that and a Young Avengers series. Then they could even have Chris Evans do occasional drop-ins on her show and the Falcon/Winter Soldier show.

    I also recognized Joe at that coping group scene and I remember someone with a beard had a line with him and cap, that must have been him. Very Cool!

    I guess I totally forgot the end of Homecoming and I've tried hard to avoid any trailers for Endgame and Home. So, missed her putting his suit away. I'll be watching that again to get ready for Home, just like I'll be watching the X-men to get ready for Dark Phoenix. What a good few months for Marvel movies - Marvel to Endgame to Phoenix to Home.

    The only thing I saw in the last few days that I thought was going to be a spoiler was a headline on I09 about the history of Death and I knew her connection to Thanos. So, I thought they might have been talking about her because she was in Endgame. Turns out it was a red herring, but that would have been a fun cameo to see. Maybe she'll show up in decade or so when they bring Thanos back for another galactic adventure. Oh! Maybe she and Thanos come back when they retire Captain Marvel so they could do the Death of Captain Marvel.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    edited April 28
    Glad to see the real hero of Endgame is getting their own movie in Phase 4.

    image

    Also they gave him a medal, guess that'll be in the deleted scenes.
  • VertighostVertighost Posts: 286
    I thought the film was a monumental achievement (capping a decade of groundbreaking achievement - has any franchise anywhere near this large delivered so consistently?) Although the middle was overstuffed and unwieldy, I don't see how it could've been otherwise given the amount of characters and story they had to go through. There was also a lot of fan service, and I see nothing wrong with that given how well it was done (It never felt forced to me) and how many characters need a moment to shine.

    I was also impressed by the unpredictable direction the narrative took. I avoided trailers and spoilers (and if you didn't, perhaps it felt predictable to you) so when the film opened I was very surprised to see how bleak and downbeat it was. And how things got worse before they got better. For me, the filmmakers were underlining the fact that the ending to the last film really happened and wanted us to continue to feel the loss. The heroes really lost and continued to reel from that loss - this is not the kind of story one expects from a superhero film.

    Then the writers came up with the idea of revisiting the older films - did not see that coming. Writing-wise, I remain stunned. To weave all of this together - I'm speechless.

    The film's (and franchise's) biggest accomplishment was that it was never simply a thrilling or exciting action film. It was what blockbusters rarely are - profoundly moving as well. We've come to know and love these characters so well, that we're not only moved by the loss of one of them, but we're (and I'm speaking for myself and the audience reactions at the theater and in fan reviews after) equally moved when Tony and Peter reunite as well. This audience reaction (being so moved by characters that we love so much that we can be repeatedly brought to -or close to- tears simply by watching them reunite) is something I don't think Warners and DC has ever achieved even with the Nolan films. (Although the last LOTR had similar heart.)

    For me, what Marvel has achieved here - a ten year act of world building on an unprecedented scale, combining disparate characters and disparate settings, all made adhering to a certain minimal level of quality- is groundbreaking in terms of what we normally see in blockbuster franchise cinema.

  • i_am_scifii_am_scifi Posts: 616
    edited April 30

    Here is an amazing article that unpacks the time travel of the movie, and puts the ending in a place where it not only fits, but doesn't break the timeline or create an alternate universe. https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/26/18518923/avengers-endgame-time-travel-loki-alive-captain-america-old

  • BrackBrack Posts: 799

    Here is an amazing article that unpacks the time tandem of the movie, and puts the ending in a place where it but only fits, but doesn't break the timeline or create an alternate universe. https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/26/18518923/avengers-endgame-time-travel-loki-alive-captain-america-old

    That is being awfully kind to the script and conveniently doesn't attempt to explain how you "return" a soul stone.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,857
    edited April 29
    I finally got to see it today. My daughters were on Spring Break from school, and all sorts of stuff this weekend was in the way, so I couldn't get there until this morning. I would like to thank a well-behaved universe for somehow not spoiling it for me before that. I also managed (partly from barely every getting to the movies the last few months) to avoid trailers and teasers.

    I don't have a lot to say, except that it totally worked for me. Was satisfying. I don't always love time travel stories, and as I had not seen any of the trailers (and for all I know there was no hint in those) I had no idea that is what I was in for. But what worked for me about the time travel aspect is that, from the meta point of view of this being the ending of the huge, Phase 1 through whatever the heck phase this is cycle of films, that chance to time travel also allowed for some dead or left behind characters to put their face in. It got to leverage that sense of history. I love the way that the originals took a bow at the end. I loved that we ended with Cap and Peggy. I have no idea if the timey-wimey stuff makes any damn sense, and I trust that those of you being more analytical about it are probably right that it doesn't actually play fair by the rules they established.

    But you know what? Emotionally I was on board, so I didn't care. It delivered for me.

    I also, and this is a tiny thing, but I love that there were no after credit sequences. No need for an extra joke. No need to sell whatever the heck is next. Instead, just a well-earned curtain call.
  • HexHex Posts: 938
    edited May 1
    I was extremely fortunate to attend the LA premiere last Monday. The whole thing was completely overwhelming... so much to absorb. Over a week later, and I still have trouble processing the whole experience.

    The one thing that really hit home for me was how excited EVERYONE was to experience the film. It is easy to be cynical in this day and age of celebrity driven media, but I can honestly say these folks were STOKED to see the film. I attended a boisterous second viewing on Friday evening, but it was nothing compared to the level of excitement at the Premiere on Monday. Very, very few of the players involved had seen the entire finished film, and everyone was genuinely moved by the end result. I don't think I'll ever have a more surreal experience than seeing RDJ watch his final scene as Iron Man.

    It is nice to see the impact the MCU has had on popular culture (and fans) isn't lost on those that make the films.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    edited May 1

    Here is an amazing article that unpacks the time travel of the movie, and puts the ending in a place where it not only fits, but doesn't break the timeline or create an alternate universe. https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/26/18518923/avengers-endgame-time-travel-loki-alive-captain-america-old

    The Russos have since explained that it was exactly what it logically looked like, he grew old in an alternate universe and nipped over to drop off the shield and put his old friends' minds at rest - https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endgame-final-scene-explained/

    They also confirmed there were two Steves in the timeline he grew old in, so they really could have done that Spy Who Shagged Me homage! Maybe on the Blu Ray.
  • mphilmphil Posts: 431
    I liked it quite a bit, but still agree with a lot of the reviews that it was overly fan servicey and that distracted from the good parts of the movie.

    I also think they've gone too far into making these films comedies. Thor was purely comedic relief in this film. Thor. Hulk was about 1/2 comedic relief. And he wasn't in the last movie. For 2 Avengers movies we really haven't full-on Hulk Smash, which is disappointing.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    mphil said:

    I liked it quite a bit, but still agree with a lot of the reviews that it was overly fan servicey and that distracted from the good parts of the movie.

    I also think they've gone too far into making these films comedies. Thor was purely comedic relief in this film. Thor. Hulk was about 1/2 comedic relief. And he wasn't in the last movie. For 2 Avengers movies we really haven't full-on Hulk Smash, which is disappointing.

    If they weren't funnier than most things marketed as comedies, I would stop going to them.
  • mphilmphil Posts: 431
    @Brack Fair point, they are legitimately funny. I think there's a middle ground between Thor having a beer belly the entire movie and burping in every other scene, and the grim & gritty seriousness of Snyder DC films. Avengers 1 was funny but I don't think of it as a comedy.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    mphil said:

    @Brack Fair point, they are legitimately funny. I think there's a middle ground between Thor having a beer belly the entire movie and burping in every other scene, and the grim & gritty seriousness of Snyder DC films. Avengers 1 was funny but I don't think of it as a comedy.

    I liked that Thor never lost his new physique, as it drove home how much more affected he was than the others.

    He thought revenge would satisfy him, and instead it proved empty. And even when they are trying to save the people that Thanos killed with the gauntlet, he knows that it's not going to bring back all the Asgardians killed by Hela, and then by Thanos and the Black Order.

    Arguably, even at the end, he's still running from his problems by joining the Guardians rather than living among the survivors of his people. Unable to deal with the living reminder of the times he feels he failed.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,374

    I actually like the fan service. After hours invested in these movies, it’s nice to see it pay off.

    I disagree these are “comedies.” Sure there are lighter moments, but I don’t think a couple jokes & quips constitute a comedy.

  • SharkJumperSharkJumper Posts: 204
    I finally saw it and managed to avoid most of the spoilers the last few weeks (although I put a number of friends on Facebook on the 30 day snooze to do it). It was very satisfying for me and a good end point for most of the characters.

    I liked their ending for Steve and the passing of the shield to Sam. Steve finally got that date with Peggy and more. A happy ending.

    A revisit to the elevator scene with Cap, Crossbones, and the rest might have been my favorite part (easily my favorite Cap scene from Winter Soldier) and his way out of the situation with the stone was a classic (and a nice nod to some of Cap's less popular stories in recent years).

    I also liked what I like to call the "Totally Chill Hulk". The comics have given us so many version of the Hulk and it was nice that they played with a non-Hulk Smash version here.

    Were Natalie Portman's scenes new? I kind of thought she was done with the MCU.

    I thought Star-Lord might get more play with this movie but I'm fine with saving it for that next Guardians movie (with James Gunn. Yay!)

    I'm assuming MJ and the rest of Peter's classmates disappeared and reappeared 5 years later too. Otherwise, they would have graduated, right?

    I'm glad they didn't use Captain Marvel to steal the show although I do like Brie Larson's portrayal.

    I always found Brolin's Thanos interesting in that he always came off as a tired warrior in the end. And Nebula: such a tragic character.

    I finally gave up trying to make sure all the stones and time lines added up and just sat back and enjoyed the "Back to the Future" fun of it.

    The future? I guess we will be getting more Black Panther, Spidey, Guardians, and Captain Marvel along with the Disney+ shows. Beyond that? I sure hope a good FF movie run. I'd love to see Annihilation War and Nova. Maybe an Avengers Forever series on Disney+ for some cameos by some of the characters we just said goodbye to.
  • HexHex Posts: 938

    I sure hope a good FF movie run. I'd love to see Annihilation War and Nova.

    Ditto.
    Fingers crossed Richard Rider shows up in the next Guardians instalment.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 799
    Hex said:

    I sure hope a good FF movie run. I'd love to see Annihilation War and Nova.

    Ditto.
    Fingers crossed Richard Rider shows up in the next Guardians instalment.
    I feel like Nova's a character you keep in your back pocket and use him in much the same way as Richard Rider was originally - the new Peter Parker - if and when you have to.

    I was going to suggest The Eternals is where we get an idea of where the universe is going next, but I wonder if Deadpool 3 will actually be where it falls. i.e. will it still be under the auspices of whatever remains of Fox in 2 years time, or part of Marvel?

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