Scott Lobdell and Kenneth Rocafort take over Superman!

VKMarion

I for one am pumped about this. Superman is my favorite character, and Red Hood and the Outlaws has been one of the most enjoyable books for me in the past year. Really looking forward to the artistic flair that Rocafort brings to his projects applied to Supes. Anyone else excited?

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2012/06/11/scott-lobdell-and-kenneth-rocafort-to-join-superman-starting-with-issue-zero

mguy1977

Well as a Superman fan that hated Lobdell on Superboy but loved Rocafort on Action Comics (vol. 1). I am at a bit of of an impasse as a reader. So I hope Lobdell steps it up a couple of notches on the Superman title.

Matthew

Mr_Cosmic

I've been reading Superman since the New 52 started but I'll be dropping the book with the #0 issue. I don't care for Lobdell's writing and Rocafort just isn't a big enough draw for me to stick around. I'm disappointed because I think Jurgens and Giffen have been doing a solid job.

random73

Soooo, wait a minute. Who then is taking over on Red Hood and the Outlaws? Cuz I am digging Rocafort drawing Roy with a trucker hat.

Dan_Cap

Rocafort, I'm in!

DoctorDoom

I'll give this book another shot solely for the art.

Torchsong

I'm with Random73, who's taking over on Red Hood?

mguy1977

Scott Lobdell is doing issue zero in September of Red Hood & the Outlaws. I checked the solicitations on CBR.

Matthew

Zhurrie

Skinned noses for Supes and everyone in this book now! bleh. I know people really enjoy Rocafort but his art is so overworked it just does nothing for me, and every single human nose has to have that dumb shine/skinned look all the time. It is detailed art though and I'll give him that, it just seems like mostly wasted effort since the details just tends to be extraneous lines. I don't know if his art is what I'd pick for Superman even if I did like it though. We'll see, nothing can be worse than the New 52 #1 Superman issue. One of only maybe 3-4 comics I have ever thrown away after reading.

BlackUmbrella

Looking forward to it... that title needs a jumpstart. Issue 7 didn't do it for me, so I haven't been reading since. Planned to read zero issue for the sake of DCU background info, but I'll try these folks out after that.

I like Kenneth Rocafort's art, and I wanted to buy Red Hood #1 just for the cover. But the bad press on it scared me away from the title.

dubbat138

I have never liked Lobdell's work. So that alone will mean I won't be reading this run.

random73

Looking forward to it... that title needs a jumpstart. Issue 7 didn't do it for me, so I haven't been reading since. Planned to read zero issue for the sake of DCU background info, but I'll try these folks out after that.

I like Kenneth Rocafort's art, and I wanted to buy Red Hood #1 just for the cover. But the bad press on it scared me away from the title.

That's a shame it hasn't been bad at all. B- maybe C+ if you're a real hardass about it.

electric_mayhem

@Zhurrie, please quite beating a dead horse. Were you buying/reading Superman before this upcoming change? Then I could see you having a "horse" in this "race" but if not, why even bother?

Back on topic, RHATO is great in my opinion and while I will miss Kenneth on that series, at least DC has the common sense to keep that quality of an artist in the fold.

Zhurrie

@electric_mayhem, how bout you come down off yours first? I am beating a dead horse because I mentioned it once when Red Hood #1 came out on the old forums and I mentioned it here? Or the Superman #1 ire? Which I've mentioned again once when it first came out, and once on the new forums? I own quite a few Superman comics thanks, didn't know I had to meet some quota to evaluate a comic book with my opinion. I haven't read many in the 2000's until New 52. I wanted to jump back on with the New 52 and assumed it was going to be the standout title with a hell of a lot more effort and care than it got. Not sure if you thought about it but exactly why do you think I'd be angry about a comic I don't care about? That doesn't even make sense.

You like Rocafort, OK, I get that. But is that at all what anyone thinks of when they think of Superman art? Seriously. Superman is clean lines and slick, not tons of lines and rough. Arguing on teh internets is pointless but really, the attacks are not needed. Click disagree or dislike and move on. FFS.

electric_mayhem

You know what, @Zhurrie, I should have been more specific. My apologies.

I am asking you if you would please stop complaining ( I know, I know. This is the internet. What else is there to do on it :D ) about Rocafort's style and specifically how he draws noses. Granted, I know you have every right to air your dislikes/disagrees about anything and everyone. But honestly, you have made your point about Rocafort, and while I don't share your opinion I do want you to do know, MESSAGE RECEIVED. I get it. He just ain't your cuppa.


So, lets start again, maybe with respect from both sides?

Are you currently reading the Superman title?



Clean lines and slick? I see that here. Did you happen to read the Action Comics early #900s, I think, that featured Rocafort with the Ol' Boy Scout? Did you find those rough and full of lines?

random73

I'm with Random73, who's taking over on Red Hood?

From what I can tell a guy named Dwayne Turner is drawing the Red Hood zero issue but nothing beyond that.

Zhurrie

Clean lines and slick? I see that here. Did you happen to read the Action Comics early #900s, I think, that featured Rocafort with the Ol' Boy Scout? Did you find those rough and full of lines?

In this image I think it is a case of you seeing what you want, I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way, but if you look all over that image it is not clean and slick. Look at above the front knee, see all those extraneous lines to make up a form of shading? They are not smooth. What would be smooth is to eliminate those lines and let the colorist shade it, which you can see they did do anyhow. So that is why the lines aren't needed. It continues on most prominently in the cape, all the extra lines for shading again when simply letting the colorist shade it would be cleaner and slicker and more in most people's image of Superman. And not being a smart-ass but again he has the extra shine/skinned nose as well, it looks silly and again just letting the colorist add the shine here just as they did with the knuckles would look better. Imagine if he outlined every shine/highlight like that? it would look preposterous. Look at his face, it is very angular and slightly rough, people think chiseled jaw and perfect hair with Superman and while the face isn't terrible it could fit better (IMO) with a few softer lines.

Rocafort is an artist that really would work better uncolored. He adds the shading and highlights in his linework. It is either a case of an artist that doesn't trust his colorist or doesn't like giving up one ounce of control and in the case of comics currently where you have revolving teams and less control I can understand why he does what he does but it reads poorly sometimes because of it.

I read Superman to issue #3 of this new run to try to give it a fair shake, it wasn't working for me with the anonymous villains and weak writing and storyline. I have Action comics #900 actually and just pulled it out, I had bought it because Brian Stelfreeze had a big hand in it and I love his work. He would be an amazing fit IMO right now. Rocafort wasn't on it at all and it had a big cast of artists. I dug out #902 and it is Rocafort and he doesn't have the skinned nose and very little to no extraneous lines like the image above and actually almost everything about the art and Superman depictions follows pretty close to what I mentioned above in my critique of this new cover image actually. There are a few minor lines thrown into his cape, the face is less angular and rough, the hair is different, the colorist was left to do his work and it is still rougher looking but *way* better. This image is him forcing his style more on the character than those early #900s which was a great middle-ground.

I'm all for discussion if you actually care and want to discuss, like I said arguing online is a waste of time. You don't have to disagree, but people do have different opinions and they might just not be so uninformed even if they are different.

SolitaireRose

I guess I'm done with the Superman book for a while. Lobdell's work has been passable at best in the New 52, and since he's primarily a writer who is used with an editor who supplies plots, I'm just not interested.

More and more, DC is becoming Marvel around 1995.

mguy1977

I guess I'm done with the Superman book for a while. Lobdell's work has been passable at best in the New 52, and since he's primarily a writer who is used with an editor who supplies plots, I'm just not interested.

More and more, DC is becoming Marvel around 1995.

Could that be because the Marvel EIC back then in 1995 & the DC EIC since late 2010 are one & the same, Bob Harras.

The more that things change, the more that things stay the same.

Matthew

BlackUmbrella

That's a shame it hasn't been bad at all. B- maybe C+ if you're a real hardass about it.

Re: Red Hood & The Outlaws - I picked up #1 last night and read it. I have to say, it was just as embarrassingly sleazy as everyone said, but otherwise pretty good. Does the sleaze factor continue in following issues, or did they drop that approach?

LOVED the art and it really has me looking forward to Superman.

electric_mayhem

In this image I think it is a case of you seeing what you want, I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way, but if you look all over that image it is not clean and slick. Look at above the front knee, see all those extraneous lines to make up a form of shading? They are not smooth. What would be smooth is to eliminate those lines and let the colorist shade it, which you can see they did do anyhow. So that is why the lines aren't needed. It continues on most prominently in the cape, all the extra lines for shading again when simply letting the colorist shade it would be cleaner and slicker and more in most people's image of Superman. And not being a smart-ass but again he has the extra shine/skinned nose as well, it looks silly and again just letting the colorist add the shine here just as they did with the knuckles would look better. Imagine if he outlined every shine/highlight like that? it would look preposterous. Look at his face, it is very angular and slightly rough, people think chiseled jaw and perfect hair with Superman and while the face isn't terrible it could fit better (IMO) with a few softer lines.

Rocafort is an artist that really would work better uncolored. He adds the shading and highlights in his linework. It is either a case of an artist that doesn't trust his colorist or doesn't like giving up one ounce of control and in the case of comics currently where you have revolving teams and less control I can understand why he does what he does but it reads poorly sometimes because of it.

I read Superman to issue #3 of this new run to try to give it a fair shake, it wasn't working for me with the anonymous villains and weak writing and storyline. I have Action comics #900 actually and just pulled it out, I had bought it because Brian Stelfreeze had a big hand in it and I love his work. He would be an amazing fit IMO right now. Rocafort wasn't on it at all and it had a big cast of artists. I dug out #902 and it is Rocafort and he doesn't have the skinned nose and very little to no extraneous lines like the image above and actually almost everything about the art and Superman depictions follows pretty close to what I mentioned above in my critique of this new cover image actually. There are a few minor lines thrown into his cape, the face is less angular and rough, the hair is different, the colorist was left to do his work and it is still rougher looking but *way* better. This image is him forcing his style more on the character than those early #900s which was a great middle-ground.

I'm all for discussion if you actually care and want to discuss, like I said arguing online is a waste of time. You don't have to disagree, but people do have different opinions and they might just not be so uninformed even if they are different.

If the whole nose thing is that terrible, why doesn't the inker ( Blond ) just remove it? Or even as you said, the colorist could add a "shine" rather than the pencilier and change Rocafort's drawing. You know that happens all the time. From the Art Director through the pencilier, inker, colorist and then final editing, I see this as a collaborative effort from all involve. Rocafort must be doing something right.

I read Superman to issue #3 of this new run to try to give it a fair shake, it wasn't working for me with the anonymous villains and weak writing and storyline.

Okay, so why even get upset? You have a series you weren't reading currently and then a new direction with an artist that you disagree with. Why the vitriol over something you weren't following anyways? Personally I am just trying to understand the thought process.


As far as discussion, thats why I posted what I did. Don't get huffy or mad. There is no tone to my posts, no hidden sarcasm. I am just asking and discussing from my end. I hope you can do the same.

random73

That's a shame it hasn't been bad at all. B- maybe C+ if you're a real hardass about it.

Re: Red Hood & The Outlaws - I picked up #1 last night and read it. I have to say, it was just as embarrassingly sleazy as everyone said, but otherwise pretty good. Does the sleaze factor continue in following issues, or did they drop that approach?

LOVED the art and it really has me looking forward to Superman.

I think the Starfire as pinup model toned down a bit and the angry warrior/princess got cranked up. If this team stuck around so would I with a new team I'm gonna wait and see.

electric_mayhem

That's a shame it hasn't been bad at all. B- maybe C+ if you're a real hardass about it.

Re: Red Hood & The Outlaws - I picked up #1 last night and read it. I have to say, it was just as embarrassingly sleazy as everyone said, but otherwise pretty good. Does the sleaze factor continue in following issues, or did they drop that approach?

LOVED the art and it really has me looking forward to Superman.

The "sleeze" was so much of issue #1, the rest of the series looks tame in comparsion. Watch out for #6, Lobdell/Rocafort turn the tables on Jason Todd and he shows some skin. Its hilarious.

Zhurrie

@electric_mayhem, I really don't know what your deal is. I responded in a completely honest and in-depth manner and you just want to argue and you do have a bad tone, you aren't interested in any sort of actual discussion. I'll cut it here, it just isn't worth more time. Please enjoy the book and the art.

electric_mayhem

@electric_mayhem, I really don't know what your deal is. I responded in a completely honest and in-depth manner and you just want to argue and you do have a bad tone, you aren't interested in any sort of actual discussion. I'll cut it here, it just isn't worth more time. Please enjoy the book and the art.

I politely disagree on my tone, since I have none. However, I do respect your decision and hope you find an artist that excites me as much as Rocafort does. Time is important and not to be wasted on frivolous and trivial matters. Why don't you start a topic or post about something that is has you loving it and crazy about? I certainty would be interested in what you do like as opposed to what you do not.

At least the love of this medium is something we both have in common with. And for what it is worth the only "button" I pushed (the dislikes/likes/disagrees/agrees/lol/awesome options) was the "LOL" for I found your first response amusing, but not in a guffaw sort of way, (the LOL is a catch-all that doesn't quite cover all, if you what I mean.) Just a little clarity in a discussion bout a topic clearly we are crazy about.

jaydee74

I have been reading the new Superman title since #1. I liked the first arc of that story even though I was probably in the minority. I think the dynamic of the Daily Planet staff in the current arc is some of the best stuff I've seen in some time and I guess my main complaint is that this is the third creative team on this title. I'm getting a bit tired of the constant creative changes overall with this book. I want some consistency. Having said that, I will give this book a chance. I really like Superman and I felt with a new #1, it was my chance to get back on board with the Man of Steel and so far, so good. I just want a consistent creative team who will stay with the book for longer than one story arc. Not too much to ask for, right?

Zhurrie

I politely disagree on my tone, since I have none. However, I do respect your decision and hope you find an artist that excites me as much as Rocafort does. Time is important and not to be wasted on frivolous and trivial matters. Why don't you start a topic or post about something that is has you loving it and crazy about? I certainty would be interested in what you do like as opposed to what you do not.

At least the love of this medium is something we both have in common with. And for what it is worth the only "button" I pushed (the dislikes/likes/disagrees/agrees/lol/awesome options) was the "LOL" for I found your first response amusing, but not in a guffaw sort of way, (the LOL is a catch-all that doesn't quite cover all, if you what I mean.) Just a little clarity in a discussion bout a topic clearly we are crazy about.

I don't know, I have a hard time believing you are trying to come off any way but a mix of patronizing and ass-ish superiority. If you haven't noticed I have made a number of posts about what I love right now like the Saga thread, Valen, Luther Strode, Double Jumpers, GI Joe, and quite a few others. Dancer, Planetoid, Massive, Creator-Owned Heros, Mudman, X-O, Steamcraft, Resident Alien, TMNT... Love them all. I have a ton of artists that I love, that is my main interest even outside of comics. Daarken, Andy Kuhn, Stelfreeze, Templesmith, Burnham, Silvestri (whom has a style similar to Rocafort but with a bit more finesse IMO), Grist, Klein, Scalera, Nord, Noto... I could go on.

I'm happy to enjoy time discussing comics, good and bad, I'm not willing to waste time talking to no end. I spent a considerable amount of time to post those last few responses, and I meant them and was genuinely trying to explain my thoughts and position... instead of acknowledging anything you decided to just try to attack two areas and nothing more. I could keep typing responses and you can keep bringing up new or circular arguments and we could do this all day... that was why I said it probably makes sense to just end it. If you want to actually discuss those two points you raised and others, I'm still happy to. I am not closed-minded and if you saw I was happy to even pull out the comics and honestly and fairly appraise them, and I did. I gave Rocafort credit for the #902 I pulled and it is most certainly different than what is shown here. I didn't just hold to my line, I was more than willing to recognize that.

WetRats

Dangit, @Zhurrie, now all I can see is the huge pimple on Superman's nose. It's the center of gravity of the entire cover.

I guess the New52 Superman really is younger!

BlackUmbrella

Look at above the front knee, see all those extraneous lines to make up a form of shading? They are not smooth. What would be smooth is to eliminate those lines and let the colorist shade it, which you can see they did do anyhow. So that is why the lines aren't needed. It continues on most prominently in the cape, all the extra lines for shading again when simply letting the colorist shade it would be cleaner and slicker and more in most people's image of Superman.

It's kinda retro, but I like it. I like when artists have some stylistic flair to their work. It reminds me of Mike Grell or Simonson. I grew up on a more illustrative style, so that's probably part of it. Basically, you either like it or you don't, but I don't think it can be said that he's doing it wrong or somehow improperly.

VKMarion

Yeah I agree. Rocafort is one of my favorite artists working right now, great layouts and character designs, and I really like the way he handles noses. I can understand people who like more traditional looks not being as excited by it, but i don't think Superman should be limited to only classic styles. Personally, I love the hyper detailed modern approach.

Zhurrie

Just to be clear I listed a whole raft of comic artists that I love and enjoy and almost all of them are *very* stylistic and unique, and most in different ways. I actually *don't* go for plain or house style work. I never said Rocafort wasn't even a good artist, I said his work tends to have a lot of extraneous linework that makes it seem overworked at times but not for any clear goal. That is a definite style choice, I'm OK with that always even if it doesn't suit me or my likes or what I think a particular character fits best within.