May I try and ask an objective question as someone who doesn't collect anything from the relaunch:
Did the relaunch make a difference? Had DCU just maintained its old continuity, but just had these storylines in the old DCU, would it have essentially worked or did there have to be a relaunch to get these current storylines?
M
I think so. I think they were trying to shove off the yoke of (most of) the continuity that's "plagued" them (note the quotes), but at the same time trying to stay true to the core of the character and what makes them great. And it's been a mixed bag - folks genuinely don't seem happy with Superman's books, but I'm reading Batman and Wonder Woman on a regular basis for the first time in years (and in Wondy's case, EVER!).
In my case, I'm quite pleased with Action Comics and not very happy with Superman. Nor am I really pleased with the Batman books, which kind of puts me at odds with the rest of the DC fans it seems.
for most of the titles (Batman and Green Lantern being the exceptions) these stories do start from a very different place than existed in prior continuity. Anemic Superboy, Two Armed Red Arrow, never Robin-Red Robin, etc. What makes it tricky though is that i don't know that the quality of the storytelling justifies the radical jettisoning of continuity (and this is me speaking as a rabid supporter of the idea a year ago). the whole thing feels hollow to me. Green Arrow is an abysmal travesty that absolutely lost quality after the reboot, same for the Teen Titans.
May I try and ask an objective question as someone who doesn't collect anything from the relaunch:
Did the relaunch make a difference? Had DCU just maintained its old continuity, but just had these storylines in the old DCU, would it have essentially worked or did there have to be a relaunch to get these current storylines?
M
I stated in another thread a while back that the biggest failing for the New 52 for me was that the books that I picked up and actually kept buying were either no different than they were pre-New 52 (Batman, the Green Lantern titles), or that they could have been launched without much trouble in the previous continuity (heck, Animal Man is almost the perfect continuation of his old solo title before it went to Vertigo). The titles where they significantly changed things? I just didn't enjoy.
Wonder Woman is the closest I have to an exception to this. While it may have been possible to launch in this new direction before, the change would have been jarring. For this title, yeah, the relaunch/reboot/whatever was very beneficial.
But, then again, this may all be a case of One More Day/Brand New Day on a larger scale - I don't think that any of the changes they brought to Spider-Man were necessary, especially since it invited a return to some previously overused plot lines (oh, no, out of web fluid again, and how can I afford rent, etc.). What improved the books after OMD was simply better writing, which could have been done without massive and controversial changes to the title.
In a nutshell, Batman didn't really change after the New 52 launch... he just got better writers.
Here's a question: if, due to hard times and tight finances, you could only afford to buy four of the New52 DC books each month (assuming you could bring yourself to only buy four), which four would you dedicate yourself to buying each month?
Here's a question: if, due to hard times and tight finances, you could only afford to buy four of the New52 DC books each month (assuming you could bring yourself to only buy four), which four would you dedicate yourself to buying each month?
Although I haven't read a new52 book for months I'd pick up:
Swamp Thing Animal Man All-Star Western Wonder Woman was my favourite at the beginning of the new run, but I'd probably put JL: Dark in as #4 now. Too many good things have gone into it lately.
Here's a question: if, due to hard times and tight finances, you could only afford to buy four of the New52 DC books each month (assuming you could bring yourself to only buy four), which four would you dedicate yourself to buying each month?
Supergirl - slave to the character Demon Knights - it's too damn good not to keep buying Wonder Woman - for daring to do something different Legion of Super-Heroes - because Levitz needs to remain employed. :)
For the first two months, these were the titles I read: Action Comics Batgirl Batman Batwing Detective Comics Justice League Legion of Super Heroes Savage Hawkman Stormwatch Suicide Squad Superman Teen Titans Wonder Woman
Now it’s only: Earth 2 Justice League Wonder Woman
At some point I’ll probably go back and read Batman because I keep hearing such great things about these Court of Owls or whatever the hell they’re called. I’ll probably go back and read Batgirl because I do love my Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. The one great thing to come out of all this, for me personally, is that I’m totally digital now and I love it.
I go more deep with my thoughts regarding DC’s New 52 in the Episode 1271 Talkback: DC's New 52: One Year Later thread
One year later I can't touch any of the Teen Titan's characters and Lobdell has rendered that entire section of the DCnU uninteresting and frustrating for me. Having Tim, Bart, Conner, and Cassie as characters I lump in with the Image turds hurts but that's where they're relegated.
Wonder Woman and Aquaman are two of my favorite titles. Finally. Wonder Woman in particular is excellent. The one book where I am impatiently waiting for it month after month.
Snyder continues to work well with Batman and Johns is still making Green Lantern a fun ride for me.
Demon Knights and All Star Western are major hits for me.
Action Comics has been hit and miss. Overall I'd say I have enjoyed it though. Red Hood and the Outlaws is surprisingly great. This is the one totally rebooted elsworlds feeling title that I love. Roy and Jason together just works and the stories have been really interesting.
Supergirl is better for me than any of her older versions. But it doesn't gel for me in this universe at this time with Superman being so young and new too.
Batwing and I, Vampire were unexpectedly enjoyable with the first being a infinitely more enjoyable, creative, and interesting that it had any right to be as a bat-knock off in africa.
Pretty much everything else has sucked though. The stuff I have enjoyed didn't need a reboot to happen. Anything with Wildstorm/Image people has been awful. I liked Voodoo early on but once it tied to the silly BS happening in Grifter I was out.
JLI was unreadable. Too much happening simultaneously maybe. That team just seemed completely excessive and the book was not enjoyable on any level for me. Which sucks when talking about a team with Booster, Fire, and Ice.
Justice League Is as bad as anything I have read in the nU and it is impossible for me to find the writer of Aquaman, Green Lantern, or the old JSA in these pages. Even in the Shazam stuff. I just finally gave up.
Green Arrow is bland and boring as anything could possibly be. I was actually looking forward to a modern version of the character to some extent but they completely failed.
Savage Hawkman is more like Unsalvageable Hawkman. So much was going well for him in the old Universe and then they blew it by making him some 90's douche bag. Horrible decision on the part of everyone involved.
Many books just don't hold up to thier old counterparts.
Bryan Q Miller's Stephanie Brown book was everything that Gail's Batgirl is trying to be (charming, whitty, fun, 'coming of age' kind of stories) but can't quite manage.
Suicide Squad can't hold a candle to Secret Six.
Bird's of Prey isn't even close.
Blue Beetle is okay but it's rather soon for a retelling of his origon and the original was better.
Batman and Robin seemed to throw away all of Damien's growth from under Dick's training. Then the close to "battle of the Robin's" with Dick and Damien seemed to acknowledge that. It almost seemed like confirmation to me that while Bruce may be Damien's dad, Dick is his teacher and mentor. Or should be anyway.
Bryan Q Miller's Stephanie Brown book was everything that Gail's Batgirl is trying to be (charming, whitty, fun, 'coming of age' kind of stories) but can't quite manage.
Can I get an amen! :) I've been enjoying Gail's run on this book, but even as I enjoy it in the back of my mind was "We sacrificed Steph for this..." :(
Bryan Q Miller's Stephanie Brown book was everything that Gail's Batgirl is trying to be (charming, whitty, fun, 'coming of age' kind of stories) but can't quite manage.
Can I get an amen! :) I've been enjoying Gail's run on this book, but even as I enjoy it in the back of my mind was "We sacrificed Steph for this..." :(
AMEN!!! Praise be to Steph under the guiding hand of Bryan Q., for she was Good.
I just recently read the first 12 issues of Teen Titans. I don't think I had ever read a Teen Titans comic before and was unfamliar with all of the characters except for Tim Drake, Wonder Girl, and Superboy. But, obviously this incarnation of Superboy is brand new and very different and my experience with Wonder Girl is extremely limited.
I got the series from the library, so price was not a factor. After reading it would I consider buying it? hmmmmmmm...... If the price was right, I'd consider it. I would definently not buy it for the off the rack price. There are some things I liked and some things I didn't like
Like: I like that the characters aren't all miniature versions of someone else. Tim is part of the bat family, and superboy is part of the Super family. But since this is a new incarnation of Superboy he really doesn't feel at all like just a younger version of Superman. Wonder Girl might be a younger version of Wonder Woman, I don't know. Never read WW so for me, Wonder Girl is basically all new and her own character. I think I like her character and like the way her armor is something that comes out of her skin, and is actually painful. Thats kind of interesting to me. Then there are the others, Solstice and Kid Flash. Kid Flash again, could be considered a little Flash... but they start hinting early on that he's something else. And again, I've never read Flash... so he felt very much like his own character. Bunker is unique to me and I like his attitude in the comic. I also enjoy the art a lot.
Don't Like: I am not a fan at all of Robin's costume with the crisscrossing straps and pouches. Also not a fan of Superboy's look at all. Not sure who came up with that, but I hate it. A lot. I also don't really like Scott Lobdell's writing. Since its a new series with new characters and new incarnations of characters, to me it seems like they could have afforded to slow down with the N.O.W.H.E.R.E stuff. Let us breathe a little with the characters and with the idea of what N.O.W.H.E.R.E is. Maybe it felt differently to people who read it over the course of the year, but reading it over the course of a couple days made it seem like I got to the end of issue 12 not really having any idea who Solstice, Bunker and Wonder Girl are. Did Solstice and Bunker exist before? Also, I feel very strongly that Lobdell's dialogue is horrible and that every other issue he turns Tim into a total douche for seemingly no reason.
Solstice, Bunker and Skitter are new characters. Pretty much every iteration of the Titans (barring a few notable exceptions) have had some form of Robin, Wonder Girl, and Kid Flash, going back to the 1960s days. So far I'm enjoying the Titans book, but I grew up with the Wolfman/Perez version and that's a tough act to try and top. I've only read the first trade of it, but I like that so far we really don't know much behind a lot of these characters yet.
why do I hate the new52 more as it goes on instead of less? at this point shouldnt it grow on me or become less offensive or just less of a noticeable / big deal? Oh man oh man everything just bugs the hell out of me and I feel like im in the twilight zone where everybody is crazy but me and cant see how aweful it all is. Or am I the crazy one and everyone that likes the new52 is sane?... im losing my mind.
why do I hate the new52 more as it goes on instead of less? at this point shouldnt it grow on me or become less offensive or just less of a noticeable / big deal? Oh man oh man everything just bugs the hell out of me and I feel like im in the twilight zone where everybody is crazy but me and cant see how aweful it all is. Or am I the crazy one and everyone that likes the new52 is sane?... im losing my mind.
No, I'm pretty much with you. There's a few things I do like, but for the most part, I think the New52 is turning out, more and more, to be a big mistake.
why do I hate the new52 more as it goes on instead of less? at this point shouldnt it grow on me or become less offensive or just less of a noticeable / big deal? Oh man oh man everything just bugs the hell out of me and I feel like im in the twilight zone where everybody is crazy but me and cant see how aweful it all is. Or am I the crazy one and everyone that likes the new52 is sane?... im losing my mind.
No, I'm pretty much with you. There's a few things I do like, but for the most part, I think the New52 is turning out, more and more, to be a big mistake.
batlaw and Chuck_Melville, I'm right with you two.
why do I hate the new52 more as it goes on instead of less? at this point shouldnt it grow on me or become less offensive or just less of a noticeable / big deal? Oh man oh man everything just bugs the hell out of me and I feel like im in the twilight zone where everybody is crazy but me and cant see how aweful it all is. Or am I the crazy one and everyone that likes the new52 is sane?... im losing my mind.
"We're all mad here..."
I think DC had to know they were going to lose some readers in the hopes of gaining others. I'd be lying if I said I loved every single aspect of the New52 Universe (and it's not "New" anymore so I think it's time to just call it the DCU or something else). I don't. But I don't buy the things I don't like or agree with, but focus instead on the things I *do* like. And there's a lot to like right now in the DCU as well. I'm back reading Batman again. If you'd told me five years ago I'd be regularly reading Aquaman or Wonder Woman, I'd have laughed, but both are top-o-the-stack books right now. And the things they're taking chances on have been hit (Demon Knights) or miss (Blackhawks) but god bless 'em for trying.
I'm excited about some of the books coming out for Marvel Now...but I know I'll end up dropping some because they won't be what I'd expected or I just flat out won't like them. The solution is easy...throw that money towards books I *do* like.
Comments
for most of the titles (Batman and Green Lantern being the exceptions) these stories do start from a very different place than existed in prior continuity. Anemic Superboy, Two Armed Red Arrow, never Robin-Red Robin, etc. What makes it tricky though is that i don't know that the quality of the storytelling justifies the radical jettisoning of continuity (and this is me speaking as a rabid supporter of the idea a year ago). the whole thing feels hollow to me. Green Arrow is an abysmal travesty that absolutely lost quality after the reboot, same for the Teen Titans.
Wonder Woman is the closest I have to an exception to this. While it may have been possible to launch in this new direction before, the change would have been jarring. For this title, yeah, the relaunch/reboot/whatever was very beneficial.
But, then again, this may all be a case of One More Day/Brand New Day on a larger scale - I don't think that any of the changes they brought to Spider-Man were necessary, especially since it invited a return to some previously overused plot lines (oh, no, out of web fluid again, and how can I afford rent, etc.). What improved the books after OMD was simply better writing, which could have been done without massive and controversial changes to the title.
In a nutshell, Batman didn't really change after the New 52 launch... he just got better writers.
- Wonder Woman
- Aquaman
- The Flash
- Batman
Batman
Detective
Dont care which... Justice League, B+R or GL Corps
Action Comics
Earth Two
Worlds' Finest
Aquaman
But, given that Morrison is soon leaving Action, I might switch it out for Frankenstein, Agent Of SHADE.
Wonder Woman
Flash
ummm...
Wold's Finest?
Aquaman
Supergirl
Worlds' Finest
Batman Incorporated
Animal Man
All-Star Western
Wonder Woman was my favourite at the beginning of the new run, but I'd probably put JL: Dark in as #4 now. Too many good things have gone into it lately.
Catwoman
Supergirl(Asrar's art is too damn good!)
Flash
Animal Man
Aquaman
Green Lantern(though I haven't read it in a 4 months)
Batwoman(same as GL)
Reading Batman in the hardcovers.
JL Dark
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Demon Knights.
Batman Inc.
Aquaman
Action Comics
Swamp thing
Animal man
Earth 2
Justice league.
Oh, and my four are:
Batman
Batman Inc
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Demon Knights - it's too damn good not to keep buying
Wonder Woman - for daring to do something different
Legion of Super-Heroes - because Levitz needs to remain employed. :)
Action Comics
Batgirl
Batman
Batwing
Detective Comics
Justice League
Legion of Super Heroes
Savage Hawkman
Stormwatch
Suicide Squad
Superman
Teen Titans
Wonder Woman
Now it’s only:
Earth 2
Justice League
Wonder Woman
At some point I’ll probably go back and read Batman because I keep hearing such great things about these Court of Owls or whatever the hell they’re called. I’ll probably go back and read Batgirl because I do love my Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. The one great thing to come out of all this, for me personally, is that I’m totally digital now and I love it.
I go more deep with my thoughts regarding DC’s New 52 in the Episode 1271 Talkback: DC's New 52: One Year Later thread
Wonder Woman and Aquaman are two of my favorite titles. Finally. Wonder Woman in particular is excellent. The one book where I am impatiently waiting for it month after month.
Snyder continues to work well with Batman and Johns is still making Green Lantern a fun ride for me.
Demon Knights and All Star Western are major hits for me.
Action Comics has been hit and miss. Overall I'd say I have enjoyed it though.
Red Hood and the Outlaws is surprisingly great. This is the one totally rebooted elsworlds feeling title that I love. Roy and Jason together just works and the stories have been really interesting.
Supergirl is better for me than any of her older versions. But it doesn't gel for me in this universe at this time with Superman being so young and new too.
Batwing and I, Vampire were unexpectedly enjoyable with the first being a infinitely more enjoyable, creative, and interesting that it had any right to be as a bat-knock off in africa.
Pretty much everything else has sucked though. The stuff I have enjoyed didn't need a reboot to happen. Anything with Wildstorm/Image people has been awful. I liked Voodoo early on but once it tied to the silly BS happening in Grifter I was out.
JLI was unreadable. Too much happening simultaneously maybe. That team just seemed completely excessive and the book was not enjoyable on any level for me. Which sucks when talking about a team with Booster, Fire, and Ice.
Justice League Is as bad as anything I have read in the nU and it is impossible for me to find the writer of Aquaman, Green Lantern, or the old JSA in these pages. Even in the Shazam stuff. I just finally gave up.
Green Arrow is bland and boring as anything could possibly be. I was actually looking forward to a modern version of the character to some extent but they completely failed.
Savage Hawkman is more like Unsalvageable Hawkman. So much was going well for him in the old Universe and then they blew it by making him some 90's douche bag. Horrible decision on the part of everyone involved.
Many books just don't hold up to thier old counterparts.
Bryan Q Miller's Stephanie Brown book was everything that Gail's Batgirl is trying to be (charming, whitty, fun, 'coming of age' kind of stories) but can't quite manage.
Suicide Squad can't hold a candle to Secret Six.
Bird's of Prey isn't even close.
Blue Beetle is okay but it's rather soon for a retelling of his origon and the original was better.
Batman and Robin seemed to throw away all of Damien's growth from under Dick's training. Then the close to "battle of the Robin's" with Dick and Damien seemed to acknowledge that. It almost seemed like confirmation to me that while Bruce may be Damien's dad, Dick is his teacher and mentor. Or should be anyway.
I got the series from the library, so price was not a factor. After reading it would I consider buying it? hmmmmmmm...... If the price was right, I'd consider it. I would definently not buy it for the off the rack price. There are some things I liked and some things I didn't like
Like: I like that the characters aren't all miniature versions of someone else. Tim is part of the bat family, and superboy is part of the Super family. But since this is a new incarnation of Superboy he really doesn't feel at all like just a younger version of Superman. Wonder Girl might be a younger version of Wonder Woman, I don't know. Never read WW so for me, Wonder Girl is basically all new and her own character. I think I like her character and like the way her armor is something that comes out of her skin, and is actually painful. Thats kind of interesting to me. Then there are the others, Solstice and Kid Flash. Kid Flash again, could be considered a little Flash... but they start hinting early on that he's something else. And again, I've never read Flash... so he felt very much like his own character. Bunker is unique to me and I like his attitude in the comic. I also enjoy the art a lot.
Don't Like: I am not a fan at all of Robin's costume with the crisscrossing straps and pouches. Also not a fan of Superboy's look at all. Not sure who came up with that, but I hate it. A lot. I also don't really like Scott Lobdell's writing. Since its a new series with new characters and new incarnations of characters, to me it seems like they could have afforded to slow down with the N.O.W.H.E.R.E stuff. Let us breathe a little with the characters and with the idea of what N.O.W.H.E.R.E is. Maybe it felt differently to people who read it over the course of the year, but reading it over the course of a couple days made it seem like I got to the end of issue 12 not really having any idea who Solstice, Bunker and Wonder Girl are. Did Solstice and Bunker exist before? Also, I feel very strongly that Lobdell's dialogue is horrible and that every other issue he turns Tim into a total douche for seemingly no reason.
Oh man oh man everything just bugs the hell out of me and I feel like im in the twilight zone where everybody is crazy but me and cant see how aweful it all is. Or am I the crazy one and everyone that likes the new52 is sane?... im losing my mind.
No, I'm pretty much with you. There's a few things I do like, but for the most part, I think the New52 is turning out, more and more, to be a big mistake.
I think DC had to know they were going to lose some readers in the hopes of gaining others. I'd be lying if I said I loved every single aspect of the New52 Universe (and it's not "New" anymore so I think it's time to just call it the DCU or something else). I don't. But I don't buy the things I don't like or agree with, but focus instead on the things I *do* like. And there's a lot to like right now in the DCU as well. I'm back reading Batman again. If you'd told me five years ago I'd be regularly reading Aquaman or Wonder Woman, I'd have laughed, but both are top-o-the-stack books right now. And the things they're taking chances on have been hit (Demon Knights) or miss (Blackhawks) but god bless 'em for trying.
I'm excited about some of the books coming out for Marvel Now...but I know I'll end up dropping some because they won't be what I'd expected or I just flat out won't like them. The solution is easy...throw that money towards books I *do* like.