Just wanted to chime in and say that, yes, the CGS episodes with Sim were very, very, very good and I was sorry that they stopped.
I totally understand Peter's reluctance to sign a petition just to be allowed to interview someone. I tend to think that people have been a little too hard on Dave, even though he's brought a LOT of grief on himself, and while I don't think Dave literally "hates [all] women", he sure doesn't do much to avoid coming off as a "misogynist" in the casual sense of the word. So I wouldn't feel comfortable signing a damn petition either. It's a complex case, and it depends on how you look at it, and I'm not sure it actually helps Dave to have thrown down the gauntlet this way, because it sort of scares off a lot of people who would sort of "have his back" to some extent, if they didn't have to go the extra, overly formal step of putting it in writing that they absolutely don't think he's the "M-word" in any sense whatsoever.
Cerebus is possibly the greatest singular opus in the history of comics. When Dave's firing on all cylinders, I don't think anyone can match him. No other great comics artist was ALSO so wonderful a writer. Sim had his excesses, of course -- boy did he ever! -- but I don't think the longwinded or overly didactic (fanatical?) later issues of Cerebus take anything away from what he accomplished in the first 200 issues or so.
To anyone wondering, I'd definitely say that Glamourpuss is worth picking up if you're, ahem, "open-minded" enough. Sometimes the way Sim lampoons the fashion industry and the trendy "liberal" magazine-mindset is actually quite funny, and I can appreciate it even if I don't wholly agree with where he's coming from. Other times Glamourpuss reads like a weird sort of inside joke that Sim didn't do a good enough job conveying to other people. And probably he doesn't care to. You either "get" him or you don't; you either like him, and find his creativity worthwhile, or you don't.
It's a weird, sad case. One thing for sure, I think there's a hell of a lot of SUBSTANCE in everything Sim has ever done. It doesn't seem right to just dismiss the guy as "crazy" or as a "misogynist", even though he is pretty out there and he does get overly excited whenever he detects a way in which a woman could be blamed for something.
There were parts of Glamourpuss that I really enjoined (the stuff about artists who worked in the illustrative style) and stuff that was just embarrassing (the Zatanna "parody"). It really makes me wonder if Sim will do anything else in comics again. I think if he does, he should have someone as a light editor to kind of keep him on task and help him focus that creativity of his. He is an amazing artist/writer, but left to his own devices, his work becomes entirely too inwardly focused.
There were parts of Glamourpuss that I really enjoined (the stuff about artists who worked in the illustrative style) and stuff that was just embarrassing (the Zatanna "parody"). It really makes me wonder if Sim will do anything else in comics again. I think if he does, he should have someone as a light editor to kind of keep him on task and help him focus that creativity of his. He is an amazing artist/writer, but left to his own devices, his work becomes entirely too inwardly focused.
I agree with every word above. (Except "enjoined" :D )
I'm hoping his new relationship with IDW will last long enough for him to do some work besides covers.
Hooollllleeeee Moley. I was in college and not reading comics when that missive from Mr. Willingham hit. Never heard of it till now. That is some hard-core faux-pas right there.
The only defense I could POSSIBLY offer is that.... nevermind... no defense.
Still love Fables, tho. I won't read anything into the fact that 99% of the characters are Caucasian.
There were parts of Glamourpuss that I really enjoined (the stuff about artists who worked in the illustrative style) and stuff that was just embarrassing (the Zatanna "parody"). It really makes me wonder if Sim will do anything else in comics again. I think if he does, he should have someone as a light editor to kind of keep him on task and help him focus that creativity of his. He is an amazing artist/writer, but left to his own devices, his work becomes entirely too inwardly focused.
I agree with every word above. (Except "enjoined" :D )
I'm hoping his new relationship with IDW will last long enough for him to do some work besides covers.
I won't read anything into the fact that 99% of the characters are Caucasian.
I assume you mean 99% of the human characters. Well over half the characters are actually animals or trolls, djinn, animated wooden puppets, etc. I would hate to think you are a specist. ;)
The reason that most of the cast is Caucasian is that he focused on the European fables that the average American knows and loves. Perfectly reasonable. He has introduced Middle Eastern and Asian fables over the years. He hasn’t tackled African fables yet, but the majority of them seem to feature animal characters rather than human characters anyway, and a large percentage of them involve Anansi, the spider trickster god, and are more mythology than fable—and Bill doesn’t incorporate mythological characters into the series. So I don’t think there is anything to read into it, regardless of his inappropriate past statement.
Speaking of Sim - I picked up a few issues of Marvel Fanfare from the Wild Pig gang at Super Show last weekend, and in issue #25 they included a Dave Sim portfolio:
whoa! look at this! A whole Dave Sim thread that I didn't notice! lol Addressing some of the points above . . .
Looks like the basics have been covered though. The Petition is what took him off CGS. My view on the Petition is that (a) it's a bit nutty that he wants people to sign it; but (b) I don't think he's a misogynist in that he doesn't hate women; (c) if you don't know anything about him, then you really have no basis to believe he's a misogynist so that you can honestly say you don't beleive he's a misogynist (to respond to Peter's comment up above about not knowing him), but can totally see why anyone would choose not to sign it.
Its a shame that he withdrew from CGS because the shows he did on it are superb. Listening to him talk about the art/craft of comics is thrilling - he's talking on a whole other level about things. It's my hope that one day he has a change of heart and continues from where he left off (and, I assume/hope CGS would welcome him back if he was so inclined to continue!).
Aside from all that, Dave pretty much withdrew from public appearances a few ears ago (he had his "last" comic ship appearance a while ago).
Seems to me that the single best place on the web now to keep up with Dave and what he's doing is the A Moment of Cerebus website: http://momentofcerebus.blogspot.com/
Dave originally announced that glamourpuss would be traded. But then he switched the comic to Print On Demand ("POD") and made a commitment to NOT trade it for a few years (I forget how long) as a sign of his commitment to floppies and POD. The longest sustained "storyline" of glamourpuss was the "Strange Death of Alex Raymond" - I think there's a plan to for a collection of that - and it will come out through a Kickstarter campaign that he's kicking around. If that comes out, I'm not sure what that would mean for a glamourpuss trade that just collects the 25 or so issues of the comic.
I think he's such an immensely talented guy and it's a crying shame that he's not devoting his talents to sequential art narrative - which is, I think, his single greatest strength. I was not a big fan of the glamourpuss series - I found it wildly uneven and, generally, it was not a narrative - it was more like a really odd history/textbook/social commentary. Can't fault the art though. In fact, for all the talk about his gender politics and oddness, the single thing that almost everyone agrees on (at least from what I've read) is that his artistic skills are unquestionably top notch. Seems he's been poking his head out a bit more over the past couple of years - as seen by that cover up above and some Elephantmen covers/posters he's been doing. He's only 57. Will Eisner put out A Contract With God when he was 61 and has some amazing output following that. So I'm kind of hoping Dave has some historic days AHEAD of him beyond his Cerebus legacy.
Through the efforts of Indie Spinner Rack and fellow forumite Lenny, Dave was brought on the show to do a phonebook by phonebook breakdown of Cerebus. As WetRats said above, Dave was enjoying a new presence online and elsewhere (Glamourpuss was just hitting the stands - new work by Dave!) so yes, this did bring out the usual criticisms. Dave then sent out this form (http://momentofcerebus.blogspot.com/2012/01/please-consider-signing-petition.html) in order for people to continue corresponding/requesting for interviews and such.
That's what killed further appearances. While I may not agree with the loudest criticisms leveled on Dave Sim, I also didn't feel I had enough knowledge to make ANY decision. I didn't want to sign the petition just to insure further appearances without really truly understanding everything that went with it. That's not fair to Dave, that's not fair to the show. Perhaps some of the other guys may have felt differently at the time - we never really gave it much discussion. In any event, it was out of our hands by that point. Bryan even invited him to one of the past Super Shows but obviously he declined in a friendly manner.
Did I feel disappointed? You bet. Because of Dave's podcast appearances, I firmly believe a new audience was brought to Cerebus and his work. There was some talk of continuing the Cerebus Book of the Month Encores with Gerhard - Sim's on again off again collaborator - but I wasn't comfortable with that either. I didn't want Sim to think we were doing it just because we could no longer get Dave on the show.
Those were mad fun eps though. Dave was amazing with his time and his spirit. And I still think Cerebus is a benchmark in comics that all wannabe comic creators need to look at at some point.
Still my some of my all time favorite moments on this show, listenting to Dave recreate scenes using voices and getting his insight on they whys and wherefores of such a comics opus is priceless, I totally backed you on this, I dont want to sign anything to get a person to do an interview with especially after we had him on at least three times prior, he knew who we were and what we were about. I always felt it was his loss. Still love Cerebus and hope one day to complete reading it
I won't read anything into the fact that 99% of the characters are Caucasian.
I assume you mean 99% of the human characters. Well over half the characters are actually animals or trolls, djinn, animated wooden puppets, etc. I would hate to think you are a specist. ;)
The reason that most of the cast is Caucasian is that he focused on the European fables that the average American knows and loves. Perfectly reasonable. He has introduced Middle Eastern and Asian fables over the years. He hasn’t tackled African fables yet, but the majority of them seem to feature animal characters rather than human characters anyway, and a large percentage of them involve Anansi, the spider trickster god, and are more mythology than fable—and Bill doesn’t incorporate mythological characters into the series. So I don’t think there is anything to read into it, regardless of his inappropriate past statement.
Yeah... I didn't mean to imply Willingham had racist tendencies, just pointing out that coupled with his off-color remark, it is suddenly noticeable that there is a definite lack of color in his cast. I have never (aside from his one aforementioned comment) had anything but respect for him and his work. It is my favorite comic, hands down, the only one I really keep up with and own all of the Trades for. I am sure when he wrote that sentence he had no inkling of it being discussed 20 or 30 years later.
Comments
I totally understand Peter's reluctance to sign a petition just to be allowed to interview someone. I tend to think that people have been a little too hard on Dave, even though he's brought a LOT of grief on himself, and while I don't think Dave literally "hates [all] women", he sure doesn't do much to avoid coming off as a "misogynist" in the casual sense of the word. So I wouldn't feel comfortable signing a damn petition either. It's a complex case, and it depends on how you look at it, and I'm not sure it actually helps Dave to have thrown down the gauntlet this way, because it sort of scares off a lot of people who would sort of "have his back" to some extent, if they didn't have to go the extra, overly formal step of putting it in writing that they absolutely don't think he's the "M-word" in any sense whatsoever.
Cerebus is possibly the greatest singular opus in the history of comics. When Dave's firing on all cylinders, I don't think anyone can match him. No other great comics artist was ALSO so wonderful a writer. Sim had his excesses, of course -- boy did he ever! -- but I don't think the longwinded or overly didactic (fanatical?) later issues of Cerebus take anything away from what he accomplished in the first 200 issues or so.
To anyone wondering, I'd definitely say that Glamourpuss is worth picking up if you're, ahem, "open-minded" enough. Sometimes the way Sim lampoons the fashion industry and the trendy "liberal" magazine-mindset is actually quite funny, and I can appreciate it even if I don't wholly agree with where he's coming from. Other times Glamourpuss reads like a weird sort of inside joke that Sim didn't do a good enough job conveying to other people. And probably he doesn't care to. You either "get" him or you don't; you either like him, and find his creativity worthwhile, or you don't.
It's a weird, sad case. One thing for sure, I think there's a hell of a lot of SUBSTANCE in everything Sim has ever done. It doesn't seem right to just dismiss the guy as "crazy" or as a "misogynist", even though he is pretty out there and he does get overly excited whenever he detects a way in which a woman could be blamed for something.
I'm hoping his new relationship with IDW will last long enough for him to do some work besides covers.
The only defense I could POSSIBLY offer is that.... nevermind... no defense.
Still love Fables, tho. I won't read anything into the fact that 99% of the characters are Caucasian.
The reason that most of the cast is Caucasian is that he focused on the European fables that the average American knows and loves. Perfectly reasonable. He has introduced Middle Eastern and Asian fables over the years. He hasn’t tackled African fables yet, but the majority of them seem to feature animal characters rather than human characters anyway, and a large percentage of them involve Anansi, the spider trickster god, and are more mythology than fable—and Bill doesn’t incorporate mythological characters into the series. So I don’t think there is anything to read into it, regardless of his inappropriate past statement.
chris
Looks like the basics have been covered though. The Petition is what took him off CGS. My view on the Petition is that (a) it's a bit nutty that he wants people to sign it; but (b) I don't think he's a misogynist in that he doesn't hate women; (c) if you don't know anything about him, then you really have no basis to believe he's a misogynist so that you can honestly say you don't beleive he's a misogynist (to respond to Peter's comment up above about not knowing him), but can totally see why anyone would choose not to sign it.
Its a shame that he withdrew from CGS because the shows he did on it are superb. Listening to him talk about the art/craft of comics is thrilling - he's talking on a whole other level about things. It's my hope that one day he has a change of heart and continues from where he left off (and, I assume/hope CGS would welcome him back if he was so inclined to continue!).
Aside from all that, Dave pretty much withdrew from public appearances a few ears ago (he had his "last" comic ship appearance a while ago).
Seems to me that the single best place on the web now to keep up with Dave and what he's doing is the A Moment of Cerebus website: http://momentofcerebus.blogspot.com/
Dave originally announced that glamourpuss would be traded. But then he switched the comic to Print On Demand ("POD") and made a commitment to NOT trade it for a few years (I forget how long) as a sign of his commitment to floppies and POD. The longest sustained "storyline" of glamourpuss was the "Strange Death of Alex Raymond" - I think there's a plan to for a collection of that - and it will come out through a Kickstarter campaign that he's kicking around. If that comes out, I'm not sure what that would mean for a glamourpuss trade that just collects the 25 or so issues of the comic.
I think he's such an immensely talented guy and it's a crying shame that he's not devoting his talents to sequential art narrative - which is, I think, his single greatest strength. I was not a big fan of the glamourpuss series - I found it wildly uneven and, generally, it was not a narrative - it was more like a really odd history/textbook/social commentary. Can't fault the art though. In fact, for all the talk about his gender politics and oddness, the single thing that almost everyone agrees on (at least from what I've read) is that his artistic skills are unquestionably top notch. Seems he's been poking his head out a bit more over the past couple of years - as seen by that cover up above and some Elephantmen covers/posters he's been doing. He's only 57. Will Eisner put out A Contract With God when he was 61 and has some amazing output following that. So I'm kind of hoping Dave has some historic days AHEAD of him beyond his Cerebus legacy.
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L nny
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L nny