Death of Superman Question (possible 20 year old spoilers)

CaptShazam · June 2013

I am reading the Death & Return of Superman Omnibus and I have a question regarding the fight between Doomsday and Superman.

During the battle, Doomsdays tore through the B-list JLA. However, did any stories/books ever mention why none of the A-list heroes (Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Batman, etc) did not join in the fight that left a path of destruction from Ohio to Metropolis killing thousands (?) along the way?

Matt · June 2013

I think they were on were dealing with their own stuff; I think GL wasn't even on planet. I know none of them were on the JLI long before the storyline.

M

David_D · June 2013

I also wonder if keeping Batman out of it had to do with some sort of posturing between the Bat office and the Super office. To borrow (and probably misuse, Cory or others can check my math) the wrestling terms-- it is okay for the B-List JLA to job to Doomsday and put him over, so that he seems like that much more of a big deal when he meets up with Superman. But the Bat office is not going to let Batman job to Doomsday just to make he (and by extension, Superman who ultimately stops him) look tougher. In the same way that the Super office would likely not be up for Bane breaking Superman first just so that there is that much more heat going into Batman vs. Bane.

(Wrestling geeks: How did I do?)

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

There were a few throwaway lines here and there that they were otherwise occupied and weren't aware of the battle until it was all over. (For all of its ferocity, the battle probably didn't last more than a couple of hours, tops.) Beyond that, you'd probably have to consult their own titles to see what events there corresponded with the DOOMSDAY battle. I know Green Lantern was involved with the Trinity crossover between his book and LEGION, but I think that actually fell between Doomsday and Reign Of The Supermen.

mwhitt80 · June 2013

very good analogy David. No way the Bat gets a squash match against Doomsday (same for Superman vs. Bane). I also seriously doubt Wonder Woman is jobbing for any of those guys. The kings don't give heat to rookies.

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.

WetRats · June 2013

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.

And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D

David_D · June 2013

It really was a missed opportunity to give Bloodwind a push.

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D

...Tyroc...? Of the Legion Of Super-Heroes!?

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

David_D said:
It really was a missed opportunity to give Bloodwind a push.

Well, at that point it wasn't the real Bloodwynd anyway -- it was the amnesiac Martian Manhunter in disguise... which wasn't revealed until six months later.

WetRats · June 2013

Chuck_Melville said:

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D
...Tyroc...? Of the Legion Of Super-Heroes!?

It was a joke, I say, a joke, son.

DoctorDoom · June 2013

Chuck_Melville said:

David_D said:
It really was a missed opportunity to give Bloodwind a push.
Well, at that point it wasn't the real Bloodwynd anyway -- it was the amnesiac Martian Manhunter in disguise... which wasn't revealed until six months later.

Spoilers to a storyline no one cares about, jerkstore! :p

David_D · June 2013

The Real Bloodwynd is my new drag name.

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D
...Tyroc...? Of the Legion Of Super-Heroes!?
It was a joke, I say, a joke, son.

...okay...

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

DoctorDoom said:

Chuck_Melville said:

David_D said:
It really was a missed opportunity to give Bloodwind a push.
Well, at that point it wasn't the real Bloodwynd anyway -- it was the amnesiac Martian Manhunter in disguise... which wasn't revealed until six months later.
Spoilers to a storyline no one cares about, jerkstore! :p

There is a spoiler warning in the thread title.

And I liked the story. I thought Dan Jurgens had one of the best runs on JLA, including the Dark JLA story arc that fell between the Bloodwynd/Martian Manhunter tale and the Doomsday crossover.

WetRats · June 2013

Chuck_Melville said:

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D
...Tyroc...? Of the Legion Of Super-Heroes!?
It was a joke, I say, a joke, son.
...okay...

I was free-associating from the "mission in deep space"

mwhitt80 · June 2013

WetRats said:

And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D

Don't skip out on Monitor Duty Batman gets pissed and you screw up his rotation.

CaptShazam · June 2013

David_D said:
I also wonder if keeping Batman out of it had to do with some sort of posturing between the Bat office and the Super office. To borrow (and probably misuse, Cory or others can check my math) the wrestling terms-- it is okay for the B-List JLA to job to Doomsday and put him over, so that he seems like that much more of a big deal when he meets up with Superman. But the Bat office is not going to let Batman job to Doomsday just to make he (and by extension, Superman who ultimately stops him) look tougher. In the same way that the Super office would likely not be up for Bane breaking Superman first just so that there is that much more heat going into Batman vs. Bane.

(Wrestling geeks: How did I do?)

I am a wrestling geek and that was excellent.

CaptShazam · June 2013

It makes sense for what they were going for with the story to have the other big guns out of the picture but it probably could have been explained better.

I had never read this before, so the other surprise I had with the story was Supergirl being a protoplasm shape shifter. When Doomsday punched her and her face turned to goo, I at first thought it was a printing error.

Matt · June 2013

CaptShazam said:
It makes sense for what they were going for with the story to have the other big guns out of the picture but it probably could have been explained better.

I had never read this before, so the other surprise I had with the story was Supergirl being a protoplasm shape shifter. When Doomsday punched her and her face turned to goo, I at first thought it was a printing error.

IF my Supergirl knowledge is correct, Supergirl was not actually introduced into post-COIE until the Superman/Batman storyline by Loeb.

M

WetRats · June 2013

CaptShazam said:
It makes sense for what they were going for with the story to have the other big guns out of the picture but it probably could have been explained better.

I had never read this before, so the other surprise I had with the story was Supergirl being a protoplasm shape shifter. When Doomsday punched her and her face turned to goo, I at first thought it was a printing error.

Yep.

That was the poor Matrix-Supergirl, last survivor of the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, former mistress to Lex Luthor's Son/Clone/Replacement Body/Whatever-the-heck-he-was-he-had-lots-of-luxuriant-red-hair.

Her.

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

WetRats said:

CaptShazam said:
It makes sense for what they were going for with the story to have the other big guns out of the picture but it probably could have been explained better.

I had never read this before, so the other surprise I had with the story was Supergirl being a protoplasm shape shifter. When Doomsday punched her and her face turned to goo, I at first thought it was a printing error.
Yep.

That was the poor Matrix-Supergirl, last survivor of the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, former mistress to Lex Luthor's Son/Clone/Replacement Body/Whatever-the-heck-he-was-he-had-lots-of-luxuriant-red-hair.

Her.

And Supergirl enough to merit her own series for several years, under the guiding hand of Peter David. For my money, she was a much more interesting character than the Jeph Loeb/Michael Turner version that came years later.

WetRats · June 2013

Chuck_Melville said:

WetRats said:

CaptShazam said:
It makes sense for what they were going for with the story to have the other big guns out of the picture but it probably could have been explained better.

I had never read this before, so the other surprise I had with the story was Supergirl being a protoplasm shape shifter. When Doomsday punched her and her face turned to goo, I at first thought it was a printing error.
Yep.

That was the poor Matrix-Supergirl, last survivor of the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, former mistress to Lex Luthor's Son/Clone/Replacement Body/Whatever-the-heck-he-was-he-had-lots-of-luxuriant-red-hair.

Her.
And Supergirl enough to merit her own series for several years, under the guiding hand of Peter David. For my money, she was a much more interesting character than the Jeph Loeb/Michael Turner version that came years later.

But she wasn't a pubescent sexpot.

:-S

Matt · June 2013

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:

WetRats said:

CaptShazam said:
It makes sense for what they were going for with the story to have the other big guns out of the picture but it probably could have been explained better.

I had never read this before, so the other surprise I had with the story was Supergirl being a protoplasm shape shifter. When Doomsday punched her and her face turned to goo, I at first thought it was a printing error.
Yep.

That was the poor Matrix-Supergirl, last survivor of the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, former mistress to Lex Luthor's Son/Clone/Replacement Body/Whatever-the-heck-he-was-he-had-lots-of-luxuriant-red-hair.

Her.
And Supergirl enough to merit her own series for several years, under the guiding hand of Peter David. For my money, she was a much more interesting character than the Jeph Loeb/Michael Turner version that came years later.
But she wasn't a pubescent sexpot.

:-S

She did make me feel less creepy about finding Miley Cyrus super sexy (note the last couple years she's uglied herself up)

M

SolitaireRose · June 2013

In a "real world", yes, ALL of the big guns would have been there to stop Doomsday, but in a comic book universe....first they had to decide if they wanted to have this villain beat EVERYONE, if there was enough space in the story, if they could have gotten permissions from the editors of other books and so on.

And this was also at a time when, quite honestly, the Justice League was a bunch of 2nd rate heroes because every so often, DC's editors get all pissy and won't let the Big Guns be int he Justice League.

Now...story wise, it was very much a wrestling storyline on a page. You have the new Big Bad Guy come in, he first beats up a bunch of people no one knows (squash matches), then he beats up your midcard guys so that people think "This guy is a bad ass", and THEN, you have him take on the top dog.

It's like when Galactus first showed up...back then, it was all in the Fantastic Four, but if you did that story now, fans would expect the Avengers, the X-Men, the Guardians of the Galaxy and everyone else to show up, which is more "real world", but not a great story choice.

Marathon · June 2013

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D

Shut yo' mouth... :)

WetRats · June 2013

Marathon said:

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D
Shut yo' mouth... :)

Just talkin' 'bout Tyroc.

Chuck_Melville · June 2013

WetRats said:

Marathon said:

WetRats said:

Chuck_Melville said:
It's kind of hard to nail down where the individual heroes were -- Justice League Europe was in the middle of the Red Winter storyline, or else Green Lantern was battling alongside the Corps against Entropy while Flash was in Keystone facing off against Dr Alchemy, depending on how you read the DC continuity... while Batman was training Azrael and Wonder Woman was journeying in deep space.
And of course, Tyroc was stuck on monitor duty. :D
Shut yo' mouth... :)
Just talkin' 'bout Tyroc.

No one understands him like his Legion.

Planeis · June 2013

CaptShazam said:
I am reading the Death & Return of Superman Omnibus and I have a question regarding the fight between Doomsday and Superman.

During the battle, Doomsdays tore through the B-list JLA. However, did any stories/books ever mention why none of the A-list heroes (Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Batman, etc) did not join in the fight that left a path of destruction from Ohio to Metropolis killing thousands (?) along the way?

Are you saying Superman dies?

SPOILER ALERT

lolz

Planeis · June 2013

David_D said:
I also wonder if keeping Batman out of it had to do with some sort of posturing between the Bat office and the Super office. To borrow (and probably misuse, Cory or others can check my math) the wrestling terms-- it is okay for the B-List JLA to job to Doomsday and put him over, so that he seems like that much more of a big deal when he meets up with Superman. But the Bat office is not going to let Batman job to Doomsday just to make he (and by extension, Superman who ultimately stops him) look tougher. In the same way that the Super office would likely not be up for Bane breaking Superman first just so that there is that much more heat going into Batman vs. Bane.

(Wrestling geeks: How did I do?)

Yea, but hasn't Superman jobbed to Batman numerous times?

Planeis · June 2013

mwhitt80 said:
very good analogy David. No way the Bat gets a squash match against Doomsday (same for Superman vs. Bane). I also seriously doubt Wonder Woman is jobbing for any of those guys. The kings don't give heat to rookies.

Yea... but Doomsday is an intergalactic killing machine. So Batman getting knocked unconscious would be very legit. Superman being hurt by Bane would be total BS..........

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