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[UPDATED: An Open Letter to DC Comics] Formerly: Need Help: Constructing a DC 'Screw Up' List

CageNarleighCageNarleigh Posts: 729
edited September 2013 in Comics Talk Community - The On Topic Forum
Alright fellow geeks. I need some help. With the recent news regarding the Batwoman creative team, DC has finally done something that can be classified as "the straw that broke the camels back" for alot of fans. Without going into too much detail (that will come later once I finish what I'm going to do) I need some help from you fine folks.

What I Need: Links to every news story you can remember of DC vs creators since the New 52.

I'm talking about instances where the creators wanted to do something and DC wouldn't let them/tried to change it/tried to direct the storys flow and a creator (or creative team) left because of it.

Right now I've got the George Perez going exclusive article, the James Robinson leaving article and the recent Batwoman thing. I need all the rest (I KNOW I'm missing tons). I tried to go through the topics list on this forum but couldn't find EVERYTHING.

I'll post here once I'm done with doing what I'm planning on doing. (its nothing super epic, I just don't want to get a bunch of "Why bother? It's not going to work anyways." type of responses)

Thanks in advance ya'll!

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE!!!

I've written my open letter to DC Comics and posted it on my blog. I would like to state here that this is not an attempt to get hits to my blog (in fact, I'm not sure how much longer I'll keep the blog going). I'm doing this PURELY because DC Comics is the REASON I love comics. Their characters are the ones who got me hooked in the first place. I LOVE DC.

But what they're doing is killing me and I want them to know it. And I want them to know I'm not the only one. And I want them to come back to what they were. It's not the best thing I've ever written and it's not without it's problems. (I'll be editing it tomorrow a little bit to include some of what I said above)

But PLEASE share it far and wide and comment on the post itself...JUST IN CASE someone at DC reads it. Who knows? Maybe it'll change things. It probably won't. But I had to do something. This was the best I can do. Now I can step away and be content to let whatever happens...happen.

READ THE OPEN LETTER HERE!
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Comments

  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    Hiring the crazy Orson Scott Card
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  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    My camel was actually broken by the whole Forever Evil thing; his hump was never the same after that.

    How far back do we want to take this? Potentially, this could be an open-ended thing, as there are all kinds of such stories going back into antiquity. I presume we want something more recent -- do we want to go back to DiDio's being hired by DC, or do we want to just stay with the New52. (Plenty to dissect there.)
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    Cancelling OMAC - even though it wasn't selling it was awesome!
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  • CageNarleighCageNarleigh Posts: 729
    Just the New 52. My point hinges on the New 52 so lets stick with that. There's ALOT of ground to cover there without also going into the whole, "The downtrend at DC started before the new 52, and here's why....NOW lets go into the New 52." If I take anything MORE than the New 52, what I plan to write is going to be WAYYYYYYYY too long for anyone to want to read.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    Hiring Rob Liefeld. Not firing Rob Liefeld soon enough. Not having a "clumsy" driver "accidentally" run Rob Liefeld over in the DC parking garage.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    I don't hate dc enough to do a petition or a kickstarter or whatever you're doing, but this is fun...

    how about too many Robin's in not enough years
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  • GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    I think the first thing I can think of as far the the issues with creators was when George Perez spoke out about what was going on with Superman.

    I don't have links but we were trying to keep a ruuning list over at the My Extra Life forums, so I can't say how accurate it is.

    George Perez off Superman:

    Federico Dallacchio removed from Suicide Squad

    Ivan Brandon removed from Men At War

    Aaron Lopresti and Matt Ryan removed from Justice League International

    Ron Marz removed from Voodoo.

    Gail Simone quits Firestorm due to editor.

    Gianlua Gugliotta and Wayne Faucher removed from Mister Terrific

    Jesus Saiz removed from Birds of Prey

    Sholly Fisch replaces Joshua Hale Fialkov on the Action Comics backup before the book saw print.

    Duane Swierczynski replaced by Jim Zub on Birds of Prey.

    Jim Zub replaced by Christy Marx on Birds of Prey #18 a month before his first issue was to be released.

    Gail Simone refused to take on Birds of Prey because it had the same editor as Firestorm.

    Gail Simone fired from Batgirl.

    Art and Franco find out Superman Family Adventures through Previews that Superman Family Adventures is cancelled.

    Ravgers #11 & 12 creative teams and covers changed after solicits came out, no announcement from DC.

    Red Hood and the Outlaws #19 cover redrawn and artist Mico Suayan was replaced after the issue was printed. No announcement from DC.

    Nick Spencer quits Supergirl halfway through writing issue #1

    Mike Johnson quits Supergirl, no announcement from DC.

    Andy Diggle quits Action Comics

    Josh Fialkov quits Green Lantern and Red Lanterns

    Rob Liefeld...

    Robert Venditti replaced on Constantine #1 one month before the book was to be released.

    Paul Cornell sees his Saucer County book canceled by DC/Vertigo. He would eventually quit writing both Stormwatch and Demon Knights.

    Chris Roberson quits writing for DC over creator rights

    DC does not allow Q & A at its New 52 panel at Wondercon.

    Bob Harras (DC VP) and Bobbie Chase (cheif editor) walk out of an interview with Comic Book Resources. DC cancels the regularly schedule interview after only a few months.

    Scott Lobdell removed from Red Hood and the Outlaws as of #20.

    James Robinson not only leaves writing Earth 2, but leaves writing for DC all together



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  • CageNarleighCageNarleigh Posts: 729
    Thanks Greg! Thats the type of stuff I'm looking for! Anyone got article links to those stories? Or other similar ones?
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    I would disagree on Perez on Superman because those first seven issues where he was allowed to do what he wanted SUCKED. The element villains and the over-writing. Go back and try to read that first Perez issue of Superman and it will take you an hour, there are so many dialogue boxes. Voodoo stunk too.

    Agree on Mister Terrific though. And Gail simone - although she still works for DC so I guess in some of your minds she's part of the problem.

    Letting artists write in general has not worked that well for DC.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    And DC had been loyal to James Robinson through a lot of shall we say "lean years" for him. Do you remember Gay for - I mean Cry for Justice?
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    And if Chris Roberson's creator rights included the Grounded storyline in Superman, then i want his creator rights shoved up his $#@. That's an instance where editorial and Chris Roberson colluded to steal my money, and they should be brought up on charges.
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  • GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    Chris Roberson's concerns over creator rights had nothing to do with him. It dealt more with the treatment of guys like Shuster and Siegel.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    edited September 2013
    Oh well I agree with that. Sorry Chris Roberson.
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  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Having Prince Adam of Eternia say the phrase: "My bad!" to Teela.

    Seriously, that was what did it for me. I tossed the book in the trash.

    Other honorable mentions:

    Swiping a couple panels for Wonder Woman from one of the best indie-webcomics in the business...MINE!

    Killing off the Legion. One of the longest running titles in comicdom (even with re- and three-boots!) and they couldn't even keep that afloat.

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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    There is certainly a pattern of management treating creatives as employees, and not as collaborators. I don't even know if it is mistreatment because I don't know the specifics. I look at the Perez thing and am glad they reined him in and took him off the book. That is one of their flagship titles and he just wasn't doing a good job. Some of the stuff on that list I think may be a little overkill too. Not announcing that Mike Johnson was off the Supergirl book was insulting to Mike Johnson, but did most comic readers really care?

    Do i wish they would care less about the bottom line and write the best books possible? Yes. That is why the worst decision I think they made is cancelling OMAC. But if it wasn't selling enough it would seem they have a pretty good reason cancelling it.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    killing off Legion is a good one. And they should not be stealing panels from other books. That's awful. Emo He-Man is not good either.

    What is your book Torchsong?
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  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    beng5007 said:

    I would disagree on Perez on Superman because those first seven issues where he was allowed to do what he wanted SUCKED. The element villains and the over-writing. Go back and try to read that first Perez issue of Superman and it will take you an hour, there are so many dialogue boxes. Voodoo stunk too.

    Understand that what we got was not necessarily what Perez was trying to do, but that a lot of his material was being micromanaged almost from the beginning and that changes were being demanded at almost every step of the way. That was what he was complaining about when he left. That, too, is what was happening with a lot of the other creative teams, and that, I believe, is a big part of what is at the heart of DC's current problems. The DCU is no longer being driven by its creators or even its editors, but by the Corporate who see results only in terms of the bottom line, not in terms of artistic achievement or customer satisfaction.

    Perez had a decent track record as writer and co-creator for years -- look at his Wonder Woman reboot in the 80's. I didn't think his Superman was terrible, though it was obviously riddled with problems, and I think that anything that was terrible about it was not his fault.
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  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    beng5007 said:

    And DC had been loyal to James Robinson through a lot of shall we say "lean years" for him. Do you remember Gay for - I mean Cry for Justice?

    That's another one I chalk up to editorial or even corporate micromanagement. He did brilliant work before, and his Earth 2 was one of the very few New52 books that had any real fire to it.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    DC has a huge problem right now and it would seem that Harras is a huge part of it. There's no denying it.The pattern would seem to indicate that they are mistreating their creatives, and if that is the case then Geoff Johns and Jim Lee need to step up and fight that. I hate to see this with DC. I love Marvel but I am a DC guy, and this stuff kills me. And you are right about Earth2.
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  • beng5007beng5007 Posts: 41
    Huge Screw up - they declined on making the My Little Ronnie comic book.
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  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited September 2013

    They have a list at theouthousers.com

    http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/staff/find/tag/hasdcdonesomethingstupid.html
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  • LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    beng5007 said:

    Cancelling OMAC - even though it wasn't selling it was awesome!

    Well, to be fair there's a long history of books that people appeal to a certain core audience that get cancelled anyway due to low sales, so it's not like that's unique to all the bananapants goings-on at DC right now.
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  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    beng5007 said:


    What is your book Torchsong?

    Thugs! is an online/print book I've been working on with an artist for about 6-7 years now. We work on it when he gets time away from paying gigs. I'm in the process of putting the existing strips back up online with "director's cut" commentary at my site:

    The fun starts here: http://www.studiofugazi.com/thugs/pages/THUGS_001.html

    The swipe occurred in a much later issue when our Wonder Woman expy (Ultramiden) gets smacked on the ass by Turbine and then threatens to rip his unit off and feed it to him.

    image

    You can read my commentary on the main page of the website:
    http://www.studiofugazi.com/

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  • ElsiebubElsiebub Posts: 338
    edited September 2013
    beng5007 said:

    Hiring Rob Liefeld. Not firing Rob Liefeld soon enough. Not having a "clumsy" driver "accidentally" run Rob Liefeld over in the DC parking garage.

    Well, I don't like his work at all, but Liefeld was the first one to call out DC editorial in a big way, for the same specific reasons that other people went on to say: for changing storylines at the last minute, demanding rewrites and redraws with hardly any lead-time, etc.

    At least, I think Liefeld was the first one to bring up those allegations in regards to the Harras regime. He did it over a year ago. At the time everyone was (predictably) calling Liefeld an idiot for doing so. Now all of these people are saying the same things that Liefeld was warning them about back then.

    So, yeah, I never would've hired Rob Liefeld in the first place, but stilll...

    And you've got it wrong: DC didn't fire Liefeld. He quit! So there's another strike against them: they didn't even know enough to fire him.
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  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Whatever the heck happened with Giffen's abortive Legion run.

    Maguire's being fired off of JL3K.
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  • RedRight88RedRight88 Posts: 2,207
    Stephanie Brown is Back...Oh wait; no she isn't.
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  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    But Batwoman is back. Wait -- does that mean we have two of them now!?

    Geez... that'd be like having two Lobos. Or three.
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  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 4,638
    Chuck_Melville said:

    Geez... that'd be like having two Lobos. Or three.

    You know during his clown phase there were a lot of Lobos running around. It does not excuse DC for returning him to his clown phase, but at least they have some precedence. Which they shouldn't need in a "New Universe".

    Which brings me back to my number one irritation of the Post-Flashpoint era. If you are restarting a universe then ****ing restart it. I'm all for going for a completly fresh slate, but do not half-ass it (Batman and Green Lantern).
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  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited September 2013
    Just a reminder of the original poster's request:
    Alright fellow geeks. I need some help. With the recent news regarding the Batwoman creative team, DC has finally done something that can be classified as "the straw that broke the camels back" for alot of fans. Without going into too much detail (that will come later once I finish what I'm going to do) I need some help from you fine folks.

    What I Need: Links to every news story you can remember of DC vs creators since the New 52.
    His request was for links to stories where creators had issues with management.

    I feel like this thread is becoming a general whinge about creative decisions you don't like. Which is related, but I think we might have a few of those running already, you know what I mean? Do we really need to repeat all that again here, especially when what the original poster asked for was links to 'DC vs. Creator' stories?
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  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    :\">
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