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Walking Dead jumped the shark? SPOILERS (for the comics)
Elsiebub
Posts: 338
Hey guys, I just read the Walking Dead Compendium Vol 3. First time I've read Walking Dead since finishing the Vol 2 Compendium a few years ago.
I enjoyed the hell out of it and read it within 24 hours. It's been a long time since I read Walking Dead, and I'd probably have to go back and read those first two volumes to be sure, but I found myself enjoying the series as much as ever. I don't remember liking the earlier issues as much as I liked Vol 3 (which reprints issues 97-144).
Yet for the last couple years there's been this idea out there that Walking Dead jumped the shark. It's been mentioned on CGS a few times (from Chris) and I've seen a few people on the boards agree with the sentiment. Sadly (and kind of infuriatingly) I've ever really seen any discussion of WHY or WHAT HAPPENED to cause people to lose confidence in the series. There's talk of horrible/violent things that happened, but out of consideration of spoilers, I don't think these points have ever really been addressed. And after reading the actual issues, I don't really see what the big fuss was.
So, SPOILERS below.
I guess people were upset about what happened in issue #100. Okay, that was brutal. But not MUCH more brutal than MANY, MANY other things that the series has shown. It was obviously done to build up Negan's character in a hurry, which it definitely did. But Kirkman did NOT go on a violence trip after that fact. In the rest of the storyline Negan had MANY opportunities to be just as violent, and as readers we were always expecting him to do so... but he showed restraint in almost all circumstances. He could have killed/tortured Carl and Rick (and others), many times, but for the most part he didn't. There was the thing with "the iron", but that's pretty much it, and "the iron" wasn't as brutal as what he did to Glenn in issue 100.
I thought the "ALL OUT WAR" mega-arc was fantastic. It showed a lot of planning on Kirkman's part and really was like reading a military book. Totally excellent. As an adversary, Negan was/is at least as good as the Governor. Issue #100 was necessary for that story to take place. I can see if readers reacted negatively to Glenn's death, but Kirkman basically sacrificed him in order to build up Negan AND to eventually give Maggie the kick she needed to become a better character/leader. Glenn's death wasn't pointless. The character had been around since issue #2. He had a good run. The "All Out War" storyline was huuuuuge and Negan will probably eventually be seen as the major antagonist of the whole series. And Maggie has become basically the second biggest "leader" character next to Rick. So, in other words, Glenn's demise had a definite creative purpose on Kirkman's part: it lead to huge positive developments.
Issue #144 also ended with a lot of gruesome death reveals. So maybe that, along with Glenn's brutal death in issue #100, is what has turned some people off. But for the life of me I'm not sure how any of this is particularly offensive in terms of longform storytelling or deaths that "matter". Maybe the complaint is that Kirkman is using characters as "cannonfodder", but there are so many objections that I'd have to that criticism. For instance:
-The whole series has always been punctuated by major, semi-major, and minor characters dying, often in gruesome ways.
-Sometimes the violence is shown (as in #100, for one person), sometimes it isn't (as in #144, when all the beheadings happen off-panel). Again, it's always been this way.
-We get to know characters well enough so that we CARE about their deaths. How is this any different from major characters dying in all sorts of other long comic series? Whether it's Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man, or all sorts of characters from non-superhero series like Sandman or Preacher, sometimes characters die. As long as the deaths matter and fuel storytelling and character development, I'm not sure what the problem is.
So why do some readers only have a problem with it recently? What's different? Nothing that I can see. Maybe around 2011 or 2012 or so people just finally fell in love with Walking Dead and grew accustomed to the cast of characters at that point in time? And so any major death beyond that point really hurt them?
Honestly, I'm not sure where the naysayers are coming from.
The series is at least as good as it ever was, in my opinion. I was really pleasantly surprised with the 48 issues I just read. There's as much pathos in it as ever. There are tons of tender moments between characters... a lot of philosophical rumination on the importance of civilization and what it means... masterfully executed sequences of action and drama. Kirkman's writing, pacing and dialogue are better than I ever remember them being. And Adlard's art looks better than ever as well, though perhaps in that case it's the addition of someone else inking his stuff.
I totally loved it. Four and a half stars. I don't really get the naysayers. In the situation that this story is set in, do you really not think that brutal people like Negan would not exist? Of course they would. In some places of the real world right now, they already do. They're totally brutal and murder people callously. Kirkman acknowledges this, shows ONE SCENE of it, and Walking Dead "jumps the shark" for it?
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you think that issue #100 represents a negative turn, I'd just like to know why. I think Negan is an incredible character who definitely represents a great villain for this stage of the series. He represents brutal tribal chaos at a point when Rick and the gang are building stable lawful civilization. He's a counterpoint, much like the Governor was way back when Rick and the gang were on the run and the Governor represented a sort of civilization.
I enjoyed the hell out of it and read it within 24 hours. It's been a long time since I read Walking Dead, and I'd probably have to go back and read those first two volumes to be sure, but I found myself enjoying the series as much as ever. I don't remember liking the earlier issues as much as I liked Vol 3 (which reprints issues 97-144).
Yet for the last couple years there's been this idea out there that Walking Dead jumped the shark. It's been mentioned on CGS a few times (from Chris) and I've seen a few people on the boards agree with the sentiment. Sadly (and kind of infuriatingly) I've ever really seen any discussion of WHY or WHAT HAPPENED to cause people to lose confidence in the series. There's talk of horrible/violent things that happened, but out of consideration of spoilers, I don't think these points have ever really been addressed. And after reading the actual issues, I don't really see what the big fuss was.
So, SPOILERS below.
I guess people were upset about what happened in issue #100. Okay, that was brutal. But not MUCH more brutal than MANY, MANY other things that the series has shown. It was obviously done to build up Negan's character in a hurry, which it definitely did. But Kirkman did NOT go on a violence trip after that fact. In the rest of the storyline Negan had MANY opportunities to be just as violent, and as readers we were always expecting him to do so... but he showed restraint in almost all circumstances. He could have killed/tortured Carl and Rick (and others), many times, but for the most part he didn't. There was the thing with "the iron", but that's pretty much it, and "the iron" wasn't as brutal as what he did to Glenn in issue 100.
I thought the "ALL OUT WAR" mega-arc was fantastic. It showed a lot of planning on Kirkman's part and really was like reading a military book. Totally excellent. As an adversary, Negan was/is at least as good as the Governor. Issue #100 was necessary for that story to take place. I can see if readers reacted negatively to Glenn's death, but Kirkman basically sacrificed him in order to build up Negan AND to eventually give Maggie the kick she needed to become a better character/leader. Glenn's death wasn't pointless. The character had been around since issue #2. He had a good run. The "All Out War" storyline was huuuuuge and Negan will probably eventually be seen as the major antagonist of the whole series. And Maggie has become basically the second biggest "leader" character next to Rick. So, in other words, Glenn's demise had a definite creative purpose on Kirkman's part: it lead to huge positive developments.
Issue #144 also ended with a lot of gruesome death reveals. So maybe that, along with Glenn's brutal death in issue #100, is what has turned some people off. But for the life of me I'm not sure how any of this is particularly offensive in terms of longform storytelling or deaths that "matter". Maybe the complaint is that Kirkman is using characters as "cannonfodder", but there are so many objections that I'd have to that criticism. For instance:
-The whole series has always been punctuated by major, semi-major, and minor characters dying, often in gruesome ways.
-Sometimes the violence is shown (as in #100, for one person), sometimes it isn't (as in #144, when all the beheadings happen off-panel). Again, it's always been this way.
-We get to know characters well enough so that we CARE about their deaths. How is this any different from major characters dying in all sorts of other long comic series? Whether it's Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man, or all sorts of characters from non-superhero series like Sandman or Preacher, sometimes characters die. As long as the deaths matter and fuel storytelling and character development, I'm not sure what the problem is.
So why do some readers only have a problem with it recently? What's different? Nothing that I can see. Maybe around 2011 or 2012 or so people just finally fell in love with Walking Dead and grew accustomed to the cast of characters at that point in time? And so any major death beyond that point really hurt them?
Honestly, I'm not sure where the naysayers are coming from.
The series is at least as good as it ever was, in my opinion. I was really pleasantly surprised with the 48 issues I just read. There's as much pathos in it as ever. There are tons of tender moments between characters... a lot of philosophical rumination on the importance of civilization and what it means... masterfully executed sequences of action and drama. Kirkman's writing, pacing and dialogue are better than I ever remember them being. And Adlard's art looks better than ever as well, though perhaps in that case it's the addition of someone else inking his stuff.
I totally loved it. Four and a half stars. I don't really get the naysayers. In the situation that this story is set in, do you really not think that brutal people like Negan would not exist? Of course they would. In some places of the real world right now, they already do. They're totally brutal and murder people callously. Kirkman acknowledges this, shows ONE SCENE of it, and Walking Dead "jumps the shark" for it?
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you think that issue #100 represents a negative turn, I'd just like to know why. I think Negan is an incredible character who definitely represents a great villain for this stage of the series. He represents brutal tribal chaos at a point when Rick and the gang are building stable lawful civilization. He's a counterpoint, much like the Governor was way back when Rick and the gang were on the run and the Governor represented a sort of civilization.
Comments
And I agree with him. It was beyond ridiculous.
(Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say it openly, even in this thread)
Maybe RK figured that killing Negan would have sent a weird message considering Rick's method of winning Negan over in the first place - it's essentially Rick's belief system. Slicing Negan's throat might've sent a conflicting message. And doing it in front of the other Saviors would've made it near impossible for them to ever have a real alliance with Rick's peeps. So with this unexpected result, the world of TWD becomes about more than just survival. Not saying I preferred it, but not sure it qualifies as 'jumping the shark' either.
Now that we're discussing, I think Eberle DID elaborate about this on one of the episodes after all... can't remember which one.
I do think it needs a jumpstart. It has gotten so big, with all the characters and locations, that it looks like it will be hard to keep going, unless there is a major epidimic/event that makes it more interesting
With that said, I'm still buying the issues (from comiXology and only when they're on sale for $1 each), every 4-6 months. I've got #139 - 147 to read here in the next couple of days. I do feel like the series has "jumped the shark," but I'm willing to plunk down a buck an issue for something even mildly entertaining. I'm not too impressed with all the superhero books out there right now anyway.
I'm going with the ridiculous tiger.
Happy Days definitely "Nuked the Fridge" with that episode
That said, I see why Rick's decision to keep Negan alive was a problem as well. For me, while I wasn't entirely convinced by the execution of the event in the story, I did come to see it as confirmation that there is a shred of hope left in Rick.. Rick has already built a community (albeit an imperfect one) so I felt by that point in the series he did have some faith in people restored, and he did place some some value in rising above the "kill or be killed" ethos he lived by earlier in the series. So I rolled with that controversial event a little better than many fans I guess.
I know fans love Negan, and he was certainly a strong villain, but to me, after some initial top drawer horrifying stuff from him, I found that whole chunk of issues from about 106-108ish to the end of All Out War to be the lowest point of the series. All Out War does stand to me as an overall misfire, that still had some excitement and big moments. Those moments did keep me going, including one point where (for the second time in the whole run) I was strongly feeling that Rick would meet his end.
Since All Out War ended, the series jumped ahead in time to a new status quo and things have REALLY become more interesting IMO. I think the time jump added a lot of mystery back to the book and it has been very revitalized in the past year or so. Negan is more interesting to me NOW than he ever was before (and remember I have yet to read the latest issue #149 and realize he surely has a big role in it).