Before Monday's appeals hearings on the Saints bounty punishments, the NFL was required to provide the NFLPA and the suspended players (Jonathan Vilma, Will Smith, Scott Fujita and Anthony Hargrove) with the evidence they would use against them.
The NFL sent along a minimal amount of information to the union, but later took a small group of reporters, including CBSSports.com's Mike Freeman, into the league offices and gave them an hour-long presentation with some pretty compelling evidence.
Freeman will have (much, much) more on this later, but here are the highlights from that presentation from Freeman and others who were present:
Unseen evidence: The majority of the NFL's evidence obviously hasn't been shown to the public, and it probably won't be shown to the public. But the gist of the NFL's presentation was that their decisions were based on what they have, not what they've shown. Coaching Staff: Much of the evidence came from Gregg Williams and Joe Vitt. Williams in particular provided a substantial portion of the information to the NFL and at one point told investigators he was "rolling the dice with player safety and someone could have been maimed." Saints computer system: Information that was on the Saints computer system, which was provided by owner Tom Benson to the NFL, had detailed info about the bounty program. One slide the NFL showed said "Now it's time to do our job, collect bounty money, no apologies, let's go hunting." This slide was accompanied by a picture of Dwayne "Dog" Champman, who you might know as "Dog the Bounty Hunter." Other Targets: We'd previously heard Aaron Rodgers and Cam Newton listed as targets. But you can also add Matt Hasselbeck and Marshawn Lynch to that list. Mo' Money: $35,000 was offered to take out Brett Favre in the 2009 NFC Championship Game against the Vikings ($10,000 from Jonathan Vilma, $10,000 from Charles Grant, $10,000 from Mike Ornstein and $5,000 from Joe Vitt). Other Sources: The NFL, Freeman notes, has lots of sources, many of them anonymous
Which public would this be? I don't think the NFL will ask for, nor will the Saints give, the trophy back. Will there be an asterisk next to it? Only in the minds of some people. The unscrupulous actions of a few shouldn't take away from what the offense and the other non-participating defensive members accomplished.
Those who have broken the rules are being made to, and should, pay for their offenses, including the coaching staff who turned a blind eye to it. There too, this isn't over by a long shot, and I still think there will be repercussions and a re-evaluation of just how much clout the commissioner should be allowed to wield when it comes to this kind of thing. He's the commish, not the czar, but he's certainly behaving like the latter.
Which public would this be? I don't think the NFL will ask for, nor will the Saints give, the trophy back. Will there be an asterisk next to it? Only in the minds of some people. The unscrupulous actions of a few shouldn't take away from what the offense and the other non-participating defensive members accomplished.
Those who have broken the rules are being made to, and should, pay for their offenses, including the coaching staff who turned a blind eye to it. There too, this isn't over by a long shot, and I still think there will be repercussions and a re-evaluation of just how much clout the commissioner should be allowed to wield when it comes to this kind of thing. He's the commish, not the czar, but he's certainly behaving like the latter.
The public that is sick of hearing how the Saints didn't do this and that the players are being framed and it wasn't the coach's voice on the NFL's tape...
If this happens again, the Commish is gonna come down even harder. He should do what he has done: Investigate, involve the NFLPA (at least notify) and IF found to have committed wrongdoing, hit them where it hurts, lost game checks and the like. A few may have ruined it, but it is still ruined. Last I checked, the game is a TEAM sport and if one or some break the rules, then the whole team is responsible.
Well, here's the thing. If the NFL has such damning evidence, why aren't they releasing it?
If the NFL is confident in its ability to prove its case, why have they gone from referring to it as the "bounty" scandal to the "bounty/pay for performance" scandal in recent weeks? P4P is legal, btw.
I give you Scott Fujita:
If you could say anything to Roger Goodell right now, what would it be?
"I saw him in the [appeal] hearings and he offered to shake all of our hands. Some of the other players didn't, but I went ahead and shook his hand, and I just said to him, 'What the hell are you doing, Roger?' He had nothing to say. His face sure turned red, though."
I'm telling you, this still has the potential to backfire big-time on the Commish. You think it's bad when DC runs comics by committee? Get ready for the NFL Committee. :)
The public that is sick of hearing how the Saints didn't do this and that the players are being framed and it wasn't the coach's voice on the NFL's tape...
If this happens again, the Commish is gonna come down even harder. He should do what he has done: Investigate, involve the NFLPA (at least notify) and IF found to have committed wrongdoing, hit them where it hurts, lost game checks and the like. A few may have ruined it, but it is still ruined. Last I checked, the game is a TEAM sport and if one or some break the rules, then the whole team is responsible.
The person claiming that it wasn't his voice on tape is Defensive Lineman Anthony Hargrove, not Gregg Williams.
I also have to wonder why Vilma would go as far as he's gone so far (today he put an injunction on Goodell to resolve the situation in court and he can play until that court case happens) if he knows he did something or that the evidence is there? Protecting your reputation and your job is one thing but if he truly *did* do something...he wouldn't go to the levels he's gone to demand the evidence be brought forth and prove it.
i am all for innocent til proven guilty for legal/civil cases. This seems to me more of a against corporate policies issue. The Commish is the "CEO" of the NFL, you break the rules, you accept the consequences. The players should be grateful that they weren't banned for a year or more like the coaches. Vilma's move seems to be a tactical one in getting him to play this year and pushing the issue in public scrutiny rather than proving his didn't do these things.
I betcha Goodell and company want this thing to go away as quickly as possible, its the players who are dragging their feet. Even after the coaches accepted their discipline.
i am all for innocent til proven guilty for legal/civil cases. This seems to me more of a against corporate policies issue. The Commish is the "CEO" of the NFL, you break the rules, you accept the consequences. The players should be grateful that they weren't banned for a year or more like the coaches. Vilma's move seems to be a tactical one in getting him to play this year and pushing the issue in public scrutiny rather than proving his didn't do these things.
I betcha Goodell and company want this thing to go away as quickly as possible, its the players who are dragging their feet. Even after the coaches accepted their discipline.
It's because a year off for a coach and a year off for a player are two different things. The coach can come back after his year served and resume his position, or one with another team. And, depending on the coach's age, he can continue coaching for years, perhaps decades. To the player in the NFL those "earning" years are extremely short and competition for positions is fierce. For the player, out of sight is out of mind.
It's because a year off for a coach and a year off for a player are two different things. The coach can come back after his year served and resume his position, or one with another team. And, depending on the coach's age, he can continue coaching for years, perhaps decades. To the player in the NFL those "earning" years are extremely short and competition for positions is fierce. For the player, out of sight is out of mind.
so such a disciplinary action would really hit them where it hurts. Kinda like getting fired for going against corporate policies and getting caught. How many times do we hear that players have a "Fine Fund" knowing that the NFL will fine them when they do things the League said not to? Hit them hard and fast, the Death Sentence exists in college football, there should be even more reason to have it on the Pro level.
Even corporations have to have a degree of transparency to them. Their books are, to a certain degree, public. The NFL, and the commish, aren't doing themselves any favors by talking about the 50,000 pages of documented proof they have that there was a bounty system, none of which they are willing to concretely divulge.
Put up, or shut up, I say. If the information is out there, and it can be proven, then do it. Shut everyone (including me! :) ) up about it. Because until you do, there's always going to be these WTF discussions going on.
The NFL later announced that the commissioner had upheld the suspensions, releasing part of Goodell's letter to the players in a press release.
“Throughout this entire process, including your appeals, and despite repeated invitations and encouragement to do so, none of you has offered any evidence that would warrant reconsideration of your suspensions," Goodell said in a letter to the players. "Instead, you elected not to participate meaningfully in the appeal process. Although you claimed to have been ‘wrongfully accused with insufficient evidence,' your lawyers elected not to ask a single question of the principal investigators, both of whom were present at the hearing (as your lawyers had requested); you elected not to testify or to make any substantive statement, written or oral, in support of your appeal; you elected not to call a single witness to support your appeal; and you elected not to introduce a single exhibit addressing the merits of your appeal.
"Instead, your lawyers raised a series of jurisdictional and procedural objections that generally ignore the CBA, in particular its provisions governing ‘conduct detrimental' determinations."
That this news was announced at 4 p.m. ET the day before the Fourth of July could be perceived as the league attempting to bury the news of the appeals. But it's hardly surprising to anyone that Goodell decided to shrug off the Saints appeals.
This is especially true given the way in which the Saints appealed. That's not to say that they didn't attempt to exercise due process, but with the way the CBA is written, they faced an uphill climb. When they attempted to climb that hill, through the legal process, it probably didn't sit too well with the commish (see: his letter).
"In sum, I did not make my determinations here lightly," Goodell wrote. "At every stage, I took seriously my responsibilities under the Collective Bargaining Agreement."
Interestingly, Goodell informed the players that they still have an opportunity to reduce their suspensions.
"While this decision constitutes my final and binding determination under the CBA, I of course retain the inherent authority to reduce a suspension should facts be brought to my attention warranting the exercise of that discretion," Goodell wrote. "The record confirms that each of you was given multiple chances to meet with me to present your side of the story. You are each still welcome to do so."
Put up or shut up? It seems the NFL has given the players, NFLPA, and their attorneys every opp. to do so. The players didn't so they could say they don't recognize Goodell's authority. And that was from the beginning, the players planned not to use the appeal process within the NFL system, they want the courts involved...
Who is the one prolonging this and who is the not playing ball? The players need a better stragety and a better PR manger.
"A seminal question for this court is whether the NFL collective bargaining agreement ... granted the commissioner, when serving as an arbitrator, the authority to disregard the essence of the parties' agreement, to conduct proceedings that are fundamentally unfair, and to act with evident bias and without jurisdiction," the lawsuit states. "The answer, under governing case law, is clearly `no."'
In the lawsuit, the players, as they have in the past, "categorically" deny participating in any kind of "bounty" program designed to injure fellow players, adding the NFLPA would never defend such behavior.
"The investigation and arbitration process that the Commissioner's public relations machinery touted as `thorough and fair' has, in reality, been a sham," the lawsuit stated.
The lawsuit said the NFL violated the labor agreement by refusing to provide the players with access to "critical documents or witnesses, or anything resembling the fairness mandated by the CBA and governing industrial due process law."
The suit also states that the players were subject to arbitration before an arbiter in Goodell, who had "launched a public campaign defending the punishments he intended to arbitrate, rendering him incurably and evidently biased."
Emphasis mine. If there were something there, the NFLPA wouldn't do what they're doing. I really think this is going to backfire on Goodell unless he releases the "goods" he supposedly has.
The lawsuit said the NFL violated the labor agreement by refusing to provide the players with access to "critical documents or witnesses, or anything resembling the fairness mandated by the CBA and governing industrial due process law."
So its a case of Goodell/NFl said and the Players/NFLPA said and either side ain't backing down?
I wonder if this has anything to do with how the CBA was negotiated and how quickly it got resolved at the "final hour" so to speak. The drama from last year has to be affecting this.
The lawsuit said the NFL violated the labor agreement by refusing to provide the players with access to "critical documents or witnesses, or anything resembling the fairness mandated by the CBA and governing industrial due process law."
So its a case of Goodell/NFl said and the Players/NFLPA said and either side ain't backing down?
I wonder if this has anything to do with how the CBA was negotiated and how quickly it got resolved at the "final hour" so to speak. The drama from last year has to be affecting this.
I agree. The players are left with a situation where the person passing judgement is the same person hearing appeals. The players have got to be kicking themselves over that little oversight.
They've all said the deal will get done...Brees wants to retire a Saint and has said as much (this is not to say he WILL, of course...but he wants to!)
I agree though, this is the biggest no-brainer in the history of the NFL, and the Saints head office is bungling it worse than the Identiy Disc series! :)
I like to imagine Benson sitting back, sipping his Southern Comfort and telling Goodell "You'd best pray the sun never sets on your ass in my parish, son." :)
Too much happening with this right now - I hope Vilma stands strong. The judge seems to agree with his stand, it's just a question of jurisdiction. Goodell has too much power (admittedly power the player's union unwisely granted him). Even with that authority, he shouldn't be able to just say "You've violated the law and here's your penalty" without making the proof known to the accused.
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Comments
nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82969c38/article/miami-dolphins-will-be-on-hbos-hard-knocks?module=HP11_headline_stack
I might give it a watch this year.
Saints fans.... I feel for ya, but its time to show some honor and dignity and give the trophy back. Do it before the public demands it.
Those who have broken the rules are being made to, and should, pay for their offenses, including the coaching staff who turned a blind eye to it. There too, this isn't over by a long shot, and I still think there will be repercussions and a re-evaluation of just how much clout the commissioner should be allowed to wield when it comes to this kind of thing. He's the commish, not the czar, but he's certainly behaving like the latter.
sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/chris-berman-trent-dilfer-call-second-half-espn-152649383--nfl.html
If this happens again, the Commish is gonna come down even harder. He should do what he has done: Investigate, involve the NFLPA (at least notify) and IF found to have committed wrongdoing, hit them where it hurts, lost game checks and the like. A few may have ruined it, but it is still ruined. Last I checked, the game is a TEAM sport and if one or some break the rules, then the whole team is responsible.
If the NFL is confident in its ability to prove its case, why have they gone from referring to it as the "bounty" scandal to the "bounty/pay for performance" scandal in recent weeks? P4P is legal, btw.
I give you Scott Fujita: Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/dave_zirin/06/22/scott-fujita-bounty/index.html#ixzz1z6BNNNLF
I'm telling you, this still has the potential to backfire big-time on the Commish. You think it's bad when DC runs comics by committee? Get ready for the NFL Committee. :)
I betcha Goodell and company want this thing to go away as quickly as possible, its the players who are dragging their feet. Even after the coaches accepted their discipline.
Put up, or shut up, I say. If the information is out there, and it can be proven, then do it. Shut everyone (including me! :) ) up about it. Because until you do, there's always going to be these WTF discussions going on.
Put up or shut up? It seems the NFL has given the players, NFLPA, and their attorneys every opp. to do so. The players didn't so they could say they don't recognize Goodell's authority. And that was from the beginning, the players planned not to use the appeal process within the NFL system, they want the courts involved...
Who is the one prolonging this and who is the not playing ball? The players need a better stragety and a better PR manger.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/nfl/07/05/nflpa-bounties-lawsuit.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp Emphasis mine. If there were something there, the NFLPA wouldn't do what they're doing. I really think this is going to backfire on Goodell unless he releases the "goods" he supposedly has.
I wonder if this has anything to do with how the CBA was negotiated and how quickly it got resolved at the "final hour" so to speak. The drama from last year has to be affecting this.
nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a5c85c/article/nfl-stadiums-go-from-boom-to-swoon-in-span-of-a-decade?module=HP11_content_stream
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/10/david-lee-roth-van-halen-wants-to-do-super-bowl-halftime/related/
Having an act the likes of Van Halen or AC/DC is long overdue. Hell, get Sammy Hagar and the boys from Chickenfoot.
C'mon, get the deal done Saints... I know there are teams begging to have Brees' skills/talent on their roster. Not you, dat Saints?
I agree though, this is the biggest no-brainer in the history of the NFL, and the Saints head office is bungling it worse than the Identiy Disc series! :)
And the highest paid player in the history of the NFL is.... ?
And worth every penny! GEAUX SAINTS! And GEAUX BREES!!!
I like to imagine Benson sitting back, sipping his Southern Comfort and telling Goodell "You'd best pray the sun never sets on your ass in my parish, son." :)
Too much happening with this right now - I hope Vilma stands strong. The judge seems to agree with his stand, it's just a question of jurisdiction. Goodell has too much power (admittedly power the player's union unwisely granted him). Even with that authority, he shouldn't be able to just say "You've violated the law and here's your penalty" without making the proof known to the accused.
Impeach the m*therf*cker. :)
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