Episode 1313 Talkback: Spotlight on Spider-Man in the Modern Age

Pants

Our 50th anniversary spotlight on Spider-Man throughout the ages concludes in this episode with the Modern Age. Chris and Dan return from our last Spider-Man spotlight to discuss the JMS era, Ezekiel, the 9/11 issue, Death in the Family, Sins of the Past, Civil War, One More Day, Brand New Day and more. (1:53:31)

Listen here.

matchkitJOHN

I would like to mention Spidey joining the New Avengers. This was the first time he joined a team for any meaningful time. I enjoyed him with the Avengers because he got to be more of the goofball Spidey as opposed to the whiny and morose Spidey he was in his own title.

wordballoon

In reference to the 9/11 spidey issue Jamie said "comic books don't normally deal with real life situations."

Sorry but superhero comics were doing this for over 20 years before 9/11. Creators like Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams classic Green Lantern Green Arrow run, the Worlds Finest Batman Superman issue about world hunger, Batman's Gun control issue, Superman dealing with foreign land mines. All of these like the spidey 9/11 issue show the inability of super heroes to stop the real world horrors we deal with every day.

David_D

wordballoon said:

In reference to the 9/11 spidey issue Jamie said "comic books don't normally deal with real life situations."

Sorry but superhero comics were doing this for over 20 years before 9/11. Creators like Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams classic Green Lantern Green Arrow run, the Worlds Finest Batman Superman issue about world hunger, Batman's Gun control issue, Superman dealing with foreign land mines. All of these like the spidey 9/11 issue show the inability of super heroes to stop the real world horrors we deal with every day.

I can think of a few, too. Like the AIDS issue of Hulk.

But here's the thing-- the key word is "normally". We can cherry-pick examples from over the decades. But they are the exceptions. They are the "very special episodes of. . ." and not the norm. Jamie is right- NORMALLY these heroes are dealing with fictional world issues (supervillains, secret societies trying to rule the world, aliens, their own superpowers, etc.) not with real world issues.

If Jamie said that issue was "unprecedented", I would see your point.

wordballoon

But David the common thread to all of this including what Jamie said made the 9/11 issue special were these very same themes of helplessness despite having superpowers . When those themes poo up with the near regularity of a JLA JSA crossover , that flies in the face of the observation

John_Steed

I understand that the few times superhero comics deal with real life events it's also a marketing stunt : Look world - we are a serious medium. And it sells. Which of course is not a bad thing - especially if some of the money goes to charity.

wordballoon

That's part if my point John. I'm not challenging Jamie personally but I am challenging the notions that prior to 9/11 this rarely happened .

Peter

Jamie's talking about the actual event of 9/11 itself. Where the characters are used to "explore" that specific situation. It's why it's called the 9/11 issue. Actual specific event. None of the ones John mentioned are specific. John - If you've listened to the show in the past with that level of scrutiny you'd have heard Jamie acknowledge a hundred times the notion that comics deal with real world themes, especially Marvel. You know exactly what he meant. Sheesh.

John_Steed

(for the newbs: Peter is talking to the real John.... :D )

wordballoon

Sheesh yourself Peter, you weren't there either, so I guess we took it 2 different ways. and like I said I questioned the observation, Jamie just happened to say it.

9/11 was the special event in this case. However, it wasn't until AFTER 9/11 that Marvel declared "our stories happen in the real world".

Too bad discussion at this forum seems to only be accepted as long as everyone is shining each others knobs.

I look forward to your own one sided discussion of the matter on the daily rios. ;)

David_D

wordballoon said:

Sheesh yourself Peter, you weren't there either, so I guess we took it 2 different ways. and like I said I questioned the observation, Jamie just happened to say it.

9/11 was the special event in this case. However, it wasn't until AFTER 9/11 that Marvel declared "our stories happen in the real world".

Too bad discussion at this forum seems to only be accepted as long as everyone is shining each others knobs.

I look forward to your own one sided discussion of the matter on the daily rios. ;)

John, if you think talkback threads for the shows don't include criticism of what is said on the show (and not just from yourself, from lots of listeners) then you haven't been paying attention. There is plenty of criticism and disagreement that goes on as well as praise and agreement.

Now. . . most other forum users don't use their forum account exclusively to criticize the show. There is that difference. But, hey, everyone approaches listening to the show their own way.

If the kind of discussion you are trying to have was actually not accepted, then wouldn't those posts have been deleted? They haven't been. They just may not be agreed with by everyone.

PS- "Shining each others knobs"? You stay classy, John.

David_D

wordballoon said:

But David the common thread to all of this including what Jamie said made the 9/11 issue special were these very same themes of helplessness despite having superpowers . When those themes poo up with the near regularity of a JLA JSA crossover , that flies in the face of the observation

Again, it comes down to the difference between normally and unprecedented. Of course the 9/11 issue was not an entirely new thing under the sun. But the difference is that the theme of 'will I be strong enough' is usually applied to things like whether the Hulk can lift a mountain on Battleworld and throw it at supervillains. Not about whether superheroes are powerless in the face of an act of non-speculative, real violence in the history of the real world. That is what made that issue abnormal. Just like "Hard Traveling Heroes" was abnormal. There is a reason we remember these stories- because they are not the kinds of stories normally told. As Jamie said. But they are still relatively few and far between.

wordballoon

Like I said David, when you can come up with a list of many variations on the plot that have the same theme of "superheroes are powerlesss in the face of real life issues and problems" I question calling them "abnormal moments".

Jamie himself mentioned WW2 stories, but didn't mention the many examples you and I came up with inbetween the 40's-2000's without much thought.

There's plenty more with Cap in 'Nam, God Loves Man Kills, the Denny O'Neil 70's JLA run, or his WW stories...

wordballoon

David_D said:

PS- "Shining each others knobs"? You stay classy, John.

Oh, boo hoo...

I don't have enough pampers to cover all of you weenies.

David_D

wordballoon said:

Like I said David, when you can come up with a list of many variations on the plot that have the same theme of "superheroes are powerlesss in the face of real life issues and problems" I question calling them "abnormal moments".

Jamie himself mentioned WW2 stories, but didn't mention the many examples you and I came up with inbetween the 40's-2000's without much thought.

There's plenty more with Cap in 'Nam, God Loves Man Kills, the Denny O'Neil 70's JLA run, or his WW stories...

I'm not sure I really understand the criticism this time. Again, for Jamie to say the 9/11 issue wasn't normal (and I think you would agree that it wasn't normal- did it at all resemble any of the year or two of ASM issues that came before?) he should have then stopped the Spider-Man in the Modern Age spotlight to talk about the not normal JLA comics of the 1970s?

What is not normal is not the theme, but the real-world context. A context of a specific, tragic event. Not context like Cap being in a fictional battle of WW2.

Yes, we am come up with a list of examples, but they are a minuscule amount of stories compared to the stories that normally get told. Heck, the amount of actual stories of Cap in real world wars is far less than the stories of him fighting fictional baddies. There are probably more stories of Cap Wolf than of Cap in Vietnam. And the war on terror volume of his series did not last long.

I think you are in the weeds on this one, as they say. I don't think an omission has been made here that was actually necessary.

Matt

If I may interject here; the 9/11 issue seemed different from some of John's examples. It's just my POV, but I felt more of an attachment to this issue because it was in our backyard. I don't know anyone I'm close with who had drug or alcohol issues, AIDS, etc. God Love, Man Kills have realistic themes, but didn't seem to be connected to a specific incident (from what I recall.) Cap in WW or 'Nam are stories I'll admit to have not read, but again I didn't live during these, nor did they really occur on US soil. Maybe if I lived in an area this issues occurred they would have the same feel as the 9/11 issue.

With THAT POV, I can clearly see how Jamie meant his comment.

M

Matt

wordballoon said:

David_D said:

PS- "Shining each others knobs"? You stay classy, John.

Oh, boo hoo...

I don't have enough pampers to cover all of you weenies.

Commando Time!!

I do miss when you give the guys praises for an episode.

M

David_D

wordballoon said:

David_D said:

PS- "Shining each others knobs"? You stay classy, John.

Oh, boo hoo...

I don't have enough pampers to cover all of you weenies.

Exactly.

wordballoon

Again YOU call it a criticism, I just disagreed w the observation.

As for brining up other stories like the 70;s stuff I mentioned, Jamie brought up WW2 examples, so what did THAT have to with 9/11 or spider-man in the 2000s?

Maybe you need to re-listen to the part of the show I'm talking about, before suggesting I'm "in the weeds" ?

BTW this molehill subject has become the proverbial mountain ;)

David_D

wordballoon said:

Again YOU call it a criticism, I just disagreed w the observation.

As for brining up other stories like the 70;s stuff I mentioned, Jamie brought up WW2 examples, so what did THAT have to with 9/11 or spider-man in the 2000s?

Maybe you need to re-listen to the part of the show I'm talking about, before suggesting I'm "in the weeds" ?

BTW this molehill subject has become the proverbial mountain ;)

It was another example of the rare instances where superhero comics deal with the real world. I'm not sure why he had to mention more examples because he mentioned one. But I agree with him that it is not the normal way those comics operate. You disagree, so be it.

LibraryBoy

Go away, John.

LibraryBoy

Getting back to the actual topic, I'd like to stump for what I think is one of the best Spidey books of the Modern Age - Marvel Adventures Spider-Man. It's all ages, so it's lighter in tone and less continuity heavy than the 616 book(s), and it puts Peter back in high school, but if you're not the type to get hung up on that, it's a fun book.

Some great material in the early going, including several issues drawn by Mike Norton and scripts from the likes of Peter David and Sean McKeever, but where it really picks up is when Paul Tobin takes over toward the end of Volume 1. It gets its own continuity (every story is done in one, but there are longer ongoing things going on), Peter gets more of a regular supporting cast of new and old characters alike, some recurring bad guys (the Torino crime family), and even a new love interest, Sophia "Chat" Sanduval, a mutant who can talk to animals. There are even some non-typical Spidey characters in supporting roles, like The Blonde Phantom and a teenage Emma Frost.

Good stuff, underloved, and well-worth the read... you can pick up pretty much the whole run in digest form, and it stays pretty good for the most of the run. Still a lot lighter than Amazing, and probably not everyone's cuppa, but if you want comics that you can both give to your 10 year old and entertain your own inner 10 year old at the same time, I recommend it.

Matt

LibraryBoy said:

Go away, John.

Now come on, John's harmless. Criticism only has power when you add weight to the comments. Just put everything in perspective.

M

thebradpinder

When Aunt may got shot by the King Pin's assassin... it was a terrible thing but I saw the coolest thing I have ever seen in a comic book ever because of it... Peter Parker throwing a Jeep at the assassin... my fave sceen in a comic book.

wordballoon

Matt is correct I am harmless

LibraryBoy

Matt said:

LibraryBoy said:

Go away, John.

Now common on, John's harmless. Criticism only has power when you add weight to the comments. Just put everything in perspective.

M

I have a low threshold for the "well, actually..." game.

But, anyway... Spider-Man.

Peter

wordballoon said:

I look forward to your own one sided discussion of the matter on the daily rios. ;)

Better than being the new Fanboy Radio. -insert emoticon of choice-

wordballoon

Hilar-RIOS !!!

Mr_Cosmic

Peter Parker Spider-Man was such a good book. There were a lot of good stories but one that sticks out is the 'Nuff Said issue. This terrible gimmick was spread across all Marvel titles but it was actually done well in PPSM. So, who does Spider-Man battle in this "silent" issue? Mimes of course!

Greg

Got back into reading Spider-Man when Big Time started. I do like what Dan Slott has been doing, but some of the stories feel too rushed at times. I picked up the Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane digests for my daughter, couldn't stop myself from reading them.

Chuck_Melville

I pretty much skipped over the Peter Parker book. I wasn't getting Spider-Man at all at that point (until I discovered JMS was writing it), and anytime I did see and skim through a copy of Peter Parker, it always seemed that I picked up a copy with terrible looking artwork. So I'd just put it back on the rack and moved on. For me, the main title, with JMS doing the scripting, was the gem, and I eagerly devoured each issue as it came out. I even went and got the first few trades, something I don't usually do if I'm getting the floppies.