I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. I would argue the movie did have hope. People like @WetRats, @chuck_melville, & @David_D all saw hope...for ANOTHER reboot.
M
Hope? OK.
Expectation? Nope.
I think for the foreseeable future, in the cinema & the comic books, Batman will be an asshole and Superman will be a whiner.
Only the occasional animated project, or anything by Art & Franco, seemed capable of injecting fun or positivity into the characters lately. I'm done with both of them.
I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. I would argue the movie did have hope. People like @WetRats, @chuck_melville, & @David_D all saw hope...for ANOTHER reboot.
M
Hope? OK.
Expectation? Nope.
I think for the foreseeable future, in the cinema & the comic books, Batman will be an asshole and Superman will be a whiner.
Only the occasional animated project, or anything by Art & Franco, seemed capable of injecting fun or positivity into the characters lately. I'm done with both of them.
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
Wow, there are soooo many things here, I realize I'm closer to agreement with you on Man of Steel then I am with Batman! In fact, the way you feel about Man of Steel as a Superman movie is a fraction of the distain I feel of Brave & the Bold as a Batman vehicle.
1.) Batman was born at age 10, right? Once that occurred, he detached myself from everyone. He never really learned HOW to connect with people. Making him anti-social makes perfect sense. Sure he could try to be more social as an adult, but speaking from experience, you always fall back to your comfort zone. Plus, the last 2 people he was close with were killed. It was painful. Batman admitted to Gordon he hates goodbyes, which is why he disappears before the end of conversations.
2.) to some extent, Batman has always been Machiavellian. If he was always that way, he'd be in law enforcement or the military. HE needs to make the difference, not simply be apart of it.
3.) paranoia is another way of saying 'being prepared.' I assume you have insurance in the event you're in an accident, injured, or died. I'm assuming you have a savings account & 401k for the future. Are you being "paranoid" you won't have enough money from your SSI?
3a.) I really don't get the JLA contingency issue. With a world of clones, mind swaps, possessions, rogue heroes, & anti-matter versions, you're a paranoid asshole for being ready? I'd argue until I'm blue in the face you'd be stupid NOT to plan for such contingencies.
4.) the Shadow is arrogant; Batman is confident in who he is. Reading both characters, you can see the difference. Granted, Batman might imply he was wrong or sorry, but that circles back to his limited/non-existent social skills. When I tell my wife not to worry when life slaps us in face me being arrogant or me being confident I'll be able to solve the problem?
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Trust me, no matter the setting, my mind is always falling back to what I know; closest exits, biggest potential threats, closest improvisable weapon, etc. I think about how to get better at my work; equipment, situation, circumventing a person's normal defenses, better deceptions, etc. Again, I'm not being an asshole, I'm being more efficient in what I do.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
I'd also try going to a public location & focusing on the variables instead of the perceived constants. You'll see how different the world & how confident you'll feel when you are on top of your environment instead of apart of it.
A great example of how people DON'T get it is with flash mobs. They're popping up all over, successfully, meaning people aren't aware of their surroundings. Is it any wonder there are attacks in public places?!
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
Its okay to disagree, but why? I could have easily marked the 'disagree' icon on @WetRats post, but i wanted to have a conversation. come on, buddy. Keep the conversation going.
Its okay to disagree, but why? I could have easily marked the 'disagree' icon on @WetRats post, but i wanted to have a conversation. come on, buddy. Keep the conversation going.
M
Not to mention; you like the sound of your own typing.
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
Wow, there are soooo many things here, I realize I'm closer to agreement with you on Man of Steel then I am with Batman! In fact, the way you feel about Man of Steel as a Superman movie is a fraction of the distain I feel of Brave & the Bold as a Batman vehicle.
1.) Batman was born at age 10, right? Once that occurred, he detached myself from everyone. He never really learned HOW to connect with people. Making him anti-social makes perfect sense. Sure he could try to be more social as an adult, but speaking from experience, you always fall back to your comfort zone. Plus, the last 2 people he was close with were killed. It was painful. Batman admitted to Gordon he hates goodbyes, which is why he disappears before the end of conversations.
2.) to some extent, Batman has always been Machiavellian. If he was always that way, he'd be in law enforcement or the military. HE needs to make the difference, not simply be apart of it.
3.) paranoia is another way of saying 'being prepared.' I assume you have insurance in the event you're in an accident, injured, or died. I'm assuming you have a savings account & 401k for the future. Are you being "paranoid" you won't have enough money from your SSI?
3a.) I really don't get the JLA contingency issue. With a world of clones, mind swaps, possessions, rogue heroes, & anti-matter versions, you're a paranoid asshole for being ready? I'd argue until I'm blue in the face you'd be stupid NOT to plan for such contingencies.
4.) the Shadow is arrogant; Batman is confident in who he is. Reading both characters, you can see the difference. Granted, Batman might imply he was wrong or sorry, but that circles back to his limited/non-existent social skills. When I tell my wife not to worry when life slaps us in face me being arrogant or me being confident I'll be able to solve the problem?
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Trust me, no matter the setting, my mind is always falling back to what I know; closest exits, biggest potential threats, closest improvisable weapon, etc. I think about how to get better at my work; equipment, situation, circumventing a person's normal defenses, better deceptions, etc. Again, I'm not being an asshole, I'm being more efficient in what I do.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
I'd also try going to a public location & focusing on the variables instead of the perceived constants. You'll see how different the world & how confident you'll feel when you are on top of your environment instead of apart of it.
A great example of how people DON'T get it is with flash mobs. They're popping up all over, successfully, meaning people aren't aware of their surroundings. Is it any wonder there are attacks in public places?!
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
M
I think “Batman: Year One” is probably the best Batman story ever produced (though Batman: Mad Love is the best Batman-related story ever). I thoroughly enjoyed Grant Morrison’s JLA take on Batman. But I also love the Batman: The Brave & the Bold cartoon. And I think Batman Adventures was consistently the best Batman comic being produced in the ’90s.
Because of the character’s publishing history and because of how much the character resonates with his audience, Batman is a great vehicle for a wide variety of stories. Don’t forget, he also has the nicknames, The Caped Crusader and The World’s Greatest Detective, and those nicknames are just as valid as the two you mentioned.
BTW, that wasn’t me that hit the Dislike button. You don’t get how anyone could like B:B&tB, and I don’t get how anyone could outright hate it, but I get where you’re coming from, and I respect your opinion on the matter. Just don’t happen to agree with parts of it.
Its okay to disagree, but why? I could have easily marked the 'disagree' icon on @WetRats post, but i wanted to have a conversation. come on, buddy. Keep the conversation going.
M
Not to mention; you like the sound of your own typing.
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
I don't hate the "Bathole" as you've described him, but I think a lighter, someone said "james Bond" type of approach above, could be nice too. There do exist people in the world who are insanely driven to accomplish whatever their goal is, but are not total assholes or borderline personality disorder types.
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Written best to your taste. Not mine.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
Gosh, Matt, I'm 51 years old. Do really think in all that time, I've never had a conversation with anyone in law enforcement, protective services, or the military? I understand what you're talking about. And I understand why you relate to your version of The Batman. But your Batman is not my Batman. I want escapism in my superhero comics, not gritty "realism".
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
Some of us still remember a time before Batman had all those oh-so-menacing nicknames. Back when he was "The Caped Crusader" and "The World's Greatest Detective".
Batman was born at age 10, right?
This may be the central difference here. I believe that, to you, Batman is the real person, and Bruce Wayne is just another tool in his utility belt. To me, Bruce Wayne is the real person.
Its okay to disagree, but why? I could have easily marked the 'disagree' icon on @WetRats post, but i wanted to have a conversation. come on, buddy. Keep the conversation going.
M
I don't mind "Disagrees". I just wish there were badges for the negative votes. >:)
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Written best to your taste. Not mine.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
Gosh, Matt, I'm 51 years old. Do really think in all that time, I've never had a conversation with anyone in law enforcement, protective services, or the military? I understand what you're talking about. And I understand why you relate to your version of The Batman. But your Batman is not my Batman. I want escapism in my superhero comics, not gritty "realism".
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
Some of us still remember a time before Batman had all those oh-so-menacing nicknames. Back when he was "The Caped Crusader" and "The World's Greatest Detective".
Batman was born at age 10, right?
This may be the central difference here. I believe that, to you, Batman is the real person, and Bruce Wayne is just another tool in his utility belt. To me, Bruce Wayne is the real person.
I get your points. I think I take the umbridge when people coin the version I prefer as a "dick" or "asshole" (or your "Bathole.") I can see people arguing with the "gritty, obsessed, more realistic-type" version of the character. Hey, I heavily dislike the "light-hearted, superhero" version.
Its basically a "janitor/custodian", "interior designer/decorator", "sabotage/sabataage" thing with me. Yeah I understand why people dislike it, but to some extent it seems to take a shot at the mindset of a certain sect of people; though I am NOT insinuating that's what YOU are doing.
M
Also, when you finally release your memoirs, I look forward to reading that section of conversations. :)
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
Wow, there are soooo many things here, I realize I'm closer to agreement with you on Man of Steel then I am with Batman! In fact, the way you feel about Man of Steel as a Superman movie is a fraction of the distain I feel of Brave & the Bold as a Batman vehicle.
1.) Batman was born at age 10, right? Once that occurred, he detached myself from everyone. He never really learned HOW to connect with people. Making him anti-social makes perfect sense. Sure he could try to be more social as an adult, but speaking from experience, you always fall back to your comfort zone. Plus, the last 2 people he was close with were killed. It was painful. Batman admitted to Gordon he hates goodbyes, which is why he disappears before the end of conversations.
2.) to some extent, Batman has always been Machiavellian. If he was always that way, he'd be in law enforcement or the military. HE needs to make the difference, not simply be apart of it.
3.) paranoia is another way of saying 'being prepared.' I assume you have insurance in the event you're in an accident, injured, or died. I'm assuming you have a savings account & 401k for the future. Are you being "paranoid" you won't have enough money from your SSI?
3a.) I really don't get the JLA contingency issue. With a world of clones, mind swaps, possessions, rogue heroes, & anti-matter versions, you're a paranoid asshole for being ready? I'd argue until I'm blue in the face you'd be stupid NOT to plan for such contingencies.
4.) the Shadow is arrogant; Batman is confident in who he is. Reading both characters, you can see the difference. Granted, Batman might imply he was wrong or sorry, but that circles back to his limited/non-existent social skills. When I tell my wife not to worry when life slaps us in face me being arrogant or me being confident I'll be able to solve the problem?
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Trust me, no matter the setting, my mind is always falling back to what I know; closest exits, biggest potential threats, closest improvisable weapon, etc. I think about how to get better at my work; equipment, situation, circumventing a person's normal defenses, better deceptions, etc. Again, I'm not being an asshole, I'm being more efficient in what I do.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
I'd also try going to a public location & focusing on the variables instead of the perceived constants. You'll see how different the world & how confident you'll feel when you are on top of your environment instead of apart of it.
A great example of how people DON'T get it is with flash mobs. They're popping up all over, successfully, meaning people aren't aware of their surroundings. Is it any wonder there are attacks in public places?!
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
M
I think “Batman: Year One” is probably the best Batman story ever produced (though Batman: Mad Love is the best Batman-related story ever). I thoroughly enjoyed Grant Morrison’s JLA take on Batman. But I also love the Batman: The Brave & the Bold cartoon. And I think Batman Adventures was consistently the best Batman comic being produced in the ’90s.
Because of the character’s publishing history and because of how much the character resonates with his audience, Batman is a great vehicle for a wide variety of stories. Don’t forget, he also has the nicknames, The Caped Crusader and The World’s Greatest Detective, and those nicknames are just as valid as the two you mentioned.
BTW, that wasn’t me that hit the Dislike button. You don’t get how anyone could like B:B&tB, and I don’t get how anyone could outright hate it, but I get where you’re coming from, and I respect your opinion on the matter. Just don’t happen to agree with parts of it.
Its interesting, I have always used Batman's nickname to define the 2 (basic) versions of the character: the Caped Crusader to be the more light-hearted, superhero version and the Dark Knight to be the more gritty, detective* version.
M
* - in an issue around the time of NML, Batman had a monologue about how people see him as a hero (or superhero, I forget), but he seems himself as just a detective.
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
Wow, there are soooo many things here, I realize I'm closer to agreement with you on Man of Steel then I am with Batman! In fact, the way you feel about Man of Steel as a Superman movie is a fraction of the distain I feel of Brave & the Bold as a Batman vehicle.
1.) Batman was born at age 10, right? Once that occurred, he detached myself from everyone. He never really learned HOW to connect with people. Making him anti-social makes perfect sense. Sure he could try to be more social as an adult, but speaking from experience, you always fall back to your comfort zone. Plus, the last 2 people he was close with were killed. It was painful. Batman admitted to Gordon he hates goodbyes, which is why he disappears before the end of conversations.
2.) to some extent, Batman has always been Machiavellian. If he was always that way, he'd be in law enforcement or the military. HE needs to make the difference, not simply be apart of it.
3.) paranoia is another way of saying 'being prepared.' I assume you have insurance in the event you're in an accident, injured, or died. I'm assuming you have a savings account & 401k for the future. Are you being "paranoid" you won't have enough money from your SSI?
3a.) I really don't get the JLA contingency issue. With a world of clones, mind swaps, possessions, rogue heroes, & anti-matter versions, you're a paranoid asshole for being ready? I'd argue until I'm blue in the face you'd be stupid NOT to plan for such contingencies.
4.) the Shadow is arrogant; Batman is confident in who he is. Reading both characters, you can see the difference. Granted, Batman might imply he was wrong or sorry, but that circles back to his limited/non-existent social skills. When I tell my wife not to worry when life slaps us in face me being arrogant or me being confident I'll be able to solve the problem?
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Trust me, no matter the setting, my mind is always falling back to what I know; closest exits, biggest potential threats, closest improvisable weapon, etc. I think about how to get better at my work; equipment, situation, circumventing a person's normal defenses, better deceptions, etc. Again, I'm not being an asshole, I'm being more efficient in what I do.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
I'd also try going to a public location & focusing on the variables instead of the perceived constants. You'll see how different the world & how confident you'll feel when you are on top of your environment instead of apart of it.
A great example of how people DON'T get it is with flash mobs. They're popping up all over, successfully, meaning people aren't aware of their surroundings. Is it any wonder there are attacks in public places?!
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
M
I think “Batman: Year One” is probably the best Batman story ever produced (though Batman: Mad Love is the best Batman-related story ever). I thoroughly enjoyed Grant Morrison’s JLA take on Batman. But I also love the Batman: The Brave & the Bold cartoon. And I think Batman Adventures was consistently the best Batman comic being produced in the ’90s.
Because of the character’s publishing history and because of how much the character resonates with his audience, Batman is a great vehicle for a wide variety of stories. Don’t forget, he also has the nicknames, The Caped Crusader and The World’s Greatest Detective, and those nicknames are just as valid as the two you mentioned.
BTW, that wasn’t me that hit the Dislike button. You don’t get how anyone could like B:B&tB, and I don’t get how anyone could outright hate it, but I get where you’re coming from, and I respect your opinion on the matter. Just don’t happen to agree with parts of it.
Its interesting, I have always used Batman's nickname to define the 2 (basic) versions of the character: the Caped Crusader to be the more light-hearted, superhero version and the Dark Knight to be the more gritty, detective* version.
M
* - in an issue around the time of NML, Batman had a monologue about how people see him as a hero (or superhero, I forget), but he seems himself as just a detective.
Batman was first referred to as “The Dark Knight” in Detective Comics #40 (1940) in the first Clayface story. The stories at that point were still fairly noirish, but Batman did crack jokes and talk to people outside of his circle. But I know what you mean. I think a lot of people use the nicknames that way. I’ve done it myself.
But there are so many shades in between the campy Batman of the ’50s and Miller’s über-grim Dark Knight. The version I grew up with was pretty much smack in the middle—Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s The Brave and the Bold Batman, which had the dark edge of the O’Neil/Adams stories but didn’t omit the adventure and fun.
This Batman was a detective first and foremost, a globetrotting adventurer second, and a dark avenger third. This version teamed up with heroes as fantastical and ridiculous as Plastic Man and as gritty and down to earth as Richard Dragon. While there was a certain sameness to the tone of the stories, there was also a lot of variety in terms of setting and plot. This is probably a large part of the reason why I appreciate and enjoy so many different versions of Batman. Oh, and he was usually referred to as both The Caped Crusader and the Dark Knight Detective in practically every TB&tB story I read.
Batman was first referred to as “The Dark Knight” in Detective Comics #40 (1940) in the first Clayface story. The stories at that point were still fairly noirish, but Batman did crack jokes and talk to people outside of his circle. But I know what you mean. I think a lot of people use the nicknames that way. I’ve done it myself.
But there are so many shades in between the campy Batman of the ’50s and Miller’s über-grim Dark Knight. The version I grew up with was pretty much smack in the middle—Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s The Brave and the Bold Batman, which had the dark edge of the O’Neil/Adams stories but didn’t omit the adventure and fun.
This Batman was a detective first and foremost, a globetrotting adventurer second, and a dark avenger third. This version teamed up with heroes as fantastical and ridiculous as Plastic Man and as gritty and down to earth as Richard Dragon. While there was a certain sameness to the tone of the stories, there was also a lot of variety in terms of setting and plot. This is probably a large part of the reason why I appreciate and enjoy so many different versions of Batman. Oh, and he was usually referred to as both The Caped Crusader and the Dark Knight Detective in practically every TB&tB story I read.
This was my Batman as well.
Of course "Dark Knight" was used all along, but it seemed to me that it was Miller's stories that really burned that aspect into the zeitgeist and began the emphasis on Darkness over everything else.
Another possible set of terms to differentiate would be "Batman" vs. "The Batman".
Wow...did not see 'Batman will be an asshole' coming as a response. What's it related to?
Most iterations of The Batman since Frank Miller got his hands on the character have been assholes. Antisocial. Paranoid. Machiavellian. Arrogant.
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
Wow, there are soooo many things here, I realize I'm closer to agreement with you on Man of Steel then I am with Batman! In fact, the way you feel about Man of Steel as a Superman movie is a fraction of the distain I feel of Brave & the Bold as a Batman vehicle.
1.) Batman was born at age 10, right? Once that occurred, he detached myself from everyone. He never really learned HOW to connect with people. Making him anti-social makes perfect sense. Sure he could try to be more social as an adult, but speaking from experience, you always fall back to your comfort zone. Plus, the last 2 people he was close with were killed. It was painful. Batman admitted to Gordon he hates goodbyes, which is why he disappears before the end of conversations.
2.) to some extent, Batman has always been Machiavellian. If he was always that way, he'd be in law enforcement or the military. HE needs to make the difference, not simply be apart of it.
3.) paranoia is another way of saying 'being prepared.' I assume you have insurance in the event you're in an accident, injured, or died. I'm assuming you have a savings account & 401k for the future. Are you being "paranoid" you won't have enough money from your SSI?
3a.) I really don't get the JLA contingency issue. With a world of clones, mind swaps, possessions, rogue heroes, & anti-matter versions, you're a paranoid asshole for being ready? I'd argue until I'm blue in the face you'd be stupid NOT to plan for such contingencies.
4.) the Shadow is arrogant; Batman is confident in who he is. Reading both characters, you can see the difference. Granted, Batman might imply he was wrong or sorry, but that circles back to his limited/non-existent social skills. When I tell my wife not to worry when life slaps us in face me being arrogant or me being confident I'll be able to solve the problem?
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Trust me, no matter the setting, my mind is always falling back to what I know; closest exits, biggest potential threats, closest improvisable weapon, etc. I think about how to get better at my work; equipment, situation, circumventing a person's normal defenses, better deceptions, etc. Again, I'm not being an asshole, I'm being more efficient in what I do.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
I'd also try going to a public location & focusing on the variables instead of the perceived constants. You'll see how different the world & how confident you'll feel when you are on top of your environment instead of apart of it.
A great example of how people DON'T get it is with flash mobs. They're popping up all over, successfully, meaning people aren't aware of their surroundings. Is it any wonder there are attacks in public places?!
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
M
I think “Batman: Year One” is probably the best Batman story ever produced (though Batman: Mad Love is the best Batman-related story ever). I thoroughly enjoyed Grant Morrison’s JLA take on Batman. But I also love the Batman: The Brave & the Bold cartoon. And I think Batman Adventures was consistently the best Batman comic being produced in the ’90s.
Because of the character’s publishing history and because of how much the character resonates with his audience, Batman is a great vehicle for a wide variety of stories. Don’t forget, he also has the nicknames, The Caped Crusader and The World’s Greatest Detective, and those nicknames are just as valid as the two you mentioned.
BTW, that wasn’t me that hit the Dislike button. You don’t get how anyone could like B:B&tB, and I don’t get how anyone could outright hate it, but I get where you’re coming from, and I respect your opinion on the matter. Just don’t happen to agree with parts of it.
Its interesting, I have always used Batman's nickname to define the 2 (basic) versions of the character: the Caped Crusader to be the more light-hearted, superhero version and the Dark Knight to be the more gritty, detective* version.
M
* - in an issue around the time of NML, Batman had a monologue about how people see him as a hero (or superhero, I forget), but he seems himself as just a detective.
Batman was first referred to as “The Dark Knight” in Detective Comics #40 (1940) in the first Clayface story. The stories at that point were still fairly noirish, but Batman did crack jokes and talk to people outside of his circle. But I know what you mean. I think a lot of people use the nicknames that way. I’ve done it myself.
But there are so many shades in between the campy Batman of the ’50s and Miller’s über-grim Dark Knight. The version I grew up with was pretty much smack in the middle—Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s The Brave and the Bold Batman, which had the dark edge of the O’Neil/Adams stories but didn’t omit the adventure and fun.
This Batman was a detective first and foremost, a globetrotting adventurer second, and a dark avenger third. This version teamed up with heroes as fantastical and ridiculous as Plastic Man and as gritty and down to earth as Richard Dragon. While there was a certain sameness to the tone of the stories, there was also a lot of variety in terms of setting and plot. This is probably a large part of the reason why I appreciate and enjoy so many different versions of Batman. Oh, and he was usually referred to as both The Caped Crusader and the Dark Knight Detective in practically every TB&tB story I read.
Yeah, I know. I recall the title featuring "The Dread" on its title page long before DKR. Its just the terms I use like Golden, Silver, or Copper are used.
Batman was first referred to as “The Dark Knight” in Detective Comics #40 (1940) in the first Clayface story. The stories at that point were still fairly noirish, but Batman did crack jokes and talk to people outside of his circle. But I know what you mean. I think a lot of people use the nicknames that way. I’ve done it myself.
But there are so many shades in between the campy Batman of the ’50s and Miller’s über-grim Dark Knight. The version I grew up with was pretty much smack in the middle—Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s The Brave and the Bold Batman, which had the dark edge of the O’Neil/Adams stories but didn’t omit the adventure and fun.
This Batman was a detective first and foremost, a globetrotting adventurer second, and a dark avenger third. This version teamed up with heroes as fantastical and ridiculous as Plastic Man and as gritty and down to earth as Richard Dragon. While there was a certain sameness to the tone of the stories, there was also a lot of variety in terms of setting and plot. This is probably a large part of the reason why I appreciate and enjoy so many different versions of Batman. Oh, and he was usually referred to as both The Caped Crusader and the Dark Knight Detective in practically every TB&tB story I read.
This was my Batman as well.
Of course "Dark Knight" was used all along, but it seemed to me that it was Miller's stories that really burned that aspect into the zeitgeist and began the emphasis on Darkness over everything else.
Another possible set of terms to differentiate would be "Batman" vs. "The Batman".
Don't get me started on "Batman" vs. "The Batman." They even snuck it into Nolan's movies.
Comments
Expectation? Nope.
I think for the foreseeable future, in the cinema & the comic books, Batman will be an asshole and Superman will be a whiner.
Only the occasional animated project, or anything by Art & Franco, seemed capable of injecting fun or positivity into the characters lately. I'm done with both of them.
M
Some versions of The Bathole (such as the one who one-punched Guy Gardner) have been entertaining to me, most (such as the one who planned how to take out every other member of the Justice League) have not. But because of the success of The Dark Knight Returns, most subsequent writers seemed to think that the embittered, twisted failure portrayed in that book was The Definitive Batman, rather than a possible future version. And each reboot seems to crank the Batholiness up another notch or three.
The Brave and Bold cartoon was such a breath of fresh air, but alas, a brief diversion from the general trend.
I know there are many who like The Bathole. I just don't.
1.) Batman was born at age 10, right? Once that occurred, he detached myself from everyone. He never really learned HOW to connect with people. Making him anti-social makes perfect sense. Sure he could try to be more social as an adult, but speaking from experience, you always fall back to your comfort zone. Plus, the last 2 people he was close with were killed. It was painful. Batman admitted to Gordon he hates goodbyes, which is why he disappears before the end of conversations.
2.) to some extent, Batman has always been Machiavellian. If he was always that way, he'd be in law enforcement or the military. HE needs to make the difference, not simply be apart of it.
3.) paranoia is another way of saying 'being prepared.' I assume you have insurance in the event you're in an accident, injured, or died. I'm assuming you have a savings account & 401k for the future. Are you being "paranoid" you won't have enough money from your SSI?
3a.) I really don't get the JLA contingency issue. With a world of clones, mind swaps, possessions, rogue heroes, & anti-matter versions, you're a paranoid asshole for being ready? I'd argue until I'm blue in the face you'd be stupid NOT to plan for such contingencies.
4.) the Shadow is arrogant; Batman is confident in who he is. Reading both characters, you can see the difference. Granted, Batman might imply he was wrong or sorry, but that circles back to his limited/non-existent social skills. When I tell my wife not to worry when life slaps us in face me being arrogant or me being confident I'll be able to solve the problem?
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Trust me, no matter the setting, my mind is always falling back to what I know; closest exits, biggest potential threats, closest improvisable weapon, etc. I think about how to get better at my work; equipment, situation, circumventing a person's normal defenses, better deceptions, etc. Again, I'm not being an asshole, I'm being more efficient in what I do.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
I'd also try going to a public location & focusing on the variables instead of the perceived constants. You'll see how different the world & how confident you'll feel when you are on top of your environment instead of apart of it.
A great example of how people DON'T get it is with flash mobs. They're popping up all over, successfully, meaning people aren't aware of their surroundings. Is it any wonder there are attacks in public places?!
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
M
M
Because of the character’s publishing history and because of how much the character resonates with his audience, Batman is a great vehicle for a wide variety of stories. Don’t forget, he also has the nicknames, The Caped Crusader and The World’s Greatest Detective, and those nicknames are just as valid as the two you mentioned.
BTW, that wasn’t me that hit the Dislike button. You don’t get how anyone could like B:B&tB, and I don’t get how anyone could outright hate it, but I get where you’re coming from, and I respect your opinion on the matter. Just don’t happen to agree with parts of it.
M
When Batman is written best, its in the vain of an experienced soldier or spy. You can't just flick a switch and turn 'it' off. You always fall back to your training.
Written best to your taste. Not mine.
I'd highly suggest talking with people you (might) know who work in law enforcement, protective services, or the armed forces. You'll understand what I'm talking about.
Gosh, Matt, I'm 51 years old. Do really think in all that time, I've never had a conversation with anyone in law enforcement, protective services, or the military? I understand what you're talking about. And I understand why you relate to your version of The Batman. But your Batman is not my Batman. I want escapism in my superhero comics, not gritty "realism".
For the life of me, I will never understand why people what this jolly, happy Batman that's had the nickname: The Dark Knight & has been introduced as "The Dread". I am learning some people misinterpret the character as being an asshole or dick because they can't relate to the characterization. Happy go lucky, yes. Always alert, no.
Some of us still remember a time before Batman had all those oh-so-menacing nicknames. Back when he was "The Caped Crusader" and "The World's Greatest Detective".
Batman was born at age 10, right?
This may be the central difference here. I believe that, to you, Batman is the real person, and Bruce Wayne is just another tool in his utility belt. To me, Bruce Wayne is the real person.
Its basically a "janitor/custodian", "interior designer/decorator", "sabotage/sabataage" thing with me. Yeah I understand why people dislike it, but to some extent it seems to take a shot at the mindset of a certain sect of people; though I am NOT insinuating that's what YOU are doing.
M
Also, when you finally release your memoirs, I look forward to reading that section of conversations. :)
M
* - in an issue around the time of NML, Batman had a monologue about how people see him as a hero (or superhero, I forget), but he seems himself as just a detective.
I-)
But there are so many shades in between the campy Batman of the ’50s and Miller’s über-grim Dark Knight. The version I grew up with was pretty much smack in the middle—Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s The Brave and the Bold Batman, which had the dark edge of the O’Neil/Adams stories but didn’t omit the adventure and fun.
This Batman was a detective first and foremost, a globetrotting adventurer second, and a dark avenger third. This version teamed up with heroes as fantastical and ridiculous as Plastic Man and as gritty and down to earth as Richard Dragon. While there was a certain sameness to the tone of the stories, there was also a lot of variety in terms of setting and plot. This is probably a large part of the reason why I appreciate and enjoy so many different versions of Batman. Oh, and he was usually referred to as both The Caped Crusader and the Dark Knight Detective in practically every TB&tB story I read.
Of course "Dark Knight" was used all along, but it seemed to me that it was Miller's stories that really burned that aspect into the zeitgeist and began the emphasis on Darkness over everything else.
Another possible set of terms to differentiate would be "Batman" vs. "The Batman".
And just like that, Batman has taken over a Superman thread. Poor Supes.
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I wouldn't say I didn't get "my" Superman in the last movie. I have never really been a big fan of the character. I was much more of a Batman kid.
So I didn't need it to be "my" Superman.
I would have settled for a Superman. ;)
M
If you know anything about photoshop or the "magic eraser" tool, some of these are very exploitable as they were taken in front of all green screens.
M