And as if my boys, @chuck_melville & @wetrats needed ANOTHER reason to hate this new DC universe; from Wikipedia (though I'm certain this wont happen):
Sequel
On June 10, 2013, it was announced that director Zack Snyder and screenwriter David S. Goyer would both be returning for a Man of Steel sequel which is being fast tracked by Warner Bros. Goyer had previously signed a three-film deal, which included Man of Steel, its sequel, and a Justice League film featuring Superman. Christopher Nolan is also expected to return as producer, albeit in a lesser role than he had in this film.[118]Man of Steel 2 is rumored to being fast-tracked for a 2014 release and will feature the new Batman and Wonder Woman will be Superman's love interest.[119]
Damn, man. I could've used you like 10 pages ago! LOL
M
Sorry...like I said - late to the party. :) It's a good thing to be busy!
Ultimately we're all armchair directors, arguing how we could have done it differently (which in our minds tends to read as "better"). It's like the old joke about guitarists: How many does it take to screw in a lightbulb? 26. One to actually do it and 25 to bitch and say they could do it better than that hack. :)
1) Superman has killed. In the comic. More than once. And if Mark Waid doesn't know that he's either selectively forgetting it, or he's a dunce and needs to turn in his comic-book card.
Or, you know, he hated it when it happened in the comics too. Since I know he’s not a dunce, and since I know he knows Superman’s history backward and forward, I’m thinking this third option is the most likely.
I realize this - and lord knows I have enough of Mark's books on my shelf that I can't say I don't admire the man's work. But a wealth of knowledge doesn't give you automatic immunity from missing the point. Based on his writing, he was clearly pining for another Superman...a Superman whose story has already been told. He's entitled not to like it, just as I'm entitled to say I don't agree. Won't stop me from buying his books or wanting to meet him at conventions, but I think he really missed the boat on this what this movie was trying to accomplish.
The "dunce" was said with love and admiration. Let's remember he was "Evil" a few publications back. :)
Waid and I pine for the same Superman.
I was pissed with Byrne when he made Superman make the same "mistake".
And that's fine...those movies are still there for you. Those books are still there for you. The Donner/Salkind movies are still (last I checked) available for rent and purchase. You can even pick up Superman Returns, which pays homage to those movies, for a song at the local Wally-World.
But with that movie, a very clear message was sent out - that version is done. We, the ticket buying public, don't need to see it anymore. We don't need Miss Tessmacher, or Lex as a goofball, or a Superman with a spitcurl and a knowing wink to the camera. It's great that those movies exist, but we don't need another version of it. Doesn't help that the whole Superkid angle was a shambling mess, but that's another thread...
I felt the same way when they updated the Marvel Family to make Billy a near-God and Mary a whore. So I get the pain...and I griped about it...but at the same time, I found things to enjoy about that turn of events as well. Freddy's maturation, for one thing. Jury's still out on the N52 version of Cap, but we'll give it a little time...
Not to derail the argument...I mean discussion (I kid, I kid), but I so hope they don't do that. In fact crowbarring a sequel for next year = disaster. Featuring Batman & Wonder Woman = just getting a lick instead of a blow. Either do a Justice League movie or MOS sequel, not a mishmash!
And I liked it when Batman & Wonder Woman had a thing in JLA. Now it seems like she's getting past around like a peace pipe. Some "royalty!"
I'm hoping in the sequel, if any other Kryptonians attack Earth (Brainiac?!), we get the plastic wrap shield netting & the levitating palm rays! #Imwritingaletter!
And that's fine...those movies are still there for you. Those books are still there for you. The Donner/Salkind movies are still (last I checked) available for rent and purchase.
Nope. Not that Superman, either. Reeve's performance was brilliant, but those scripts stank!
The Fleischer cartoons come closest.
My Superman is an accumulation/amalgamation of all the purest, most ideal aspects of what Superman can be, which eschews the blemishes like superdickery and grittiness.
I'm hoping in the sequel, if any other Kryptonians attack Earth (Brainiac?!), we get the plastic wrap shield netting & the levitating palm rays! #Imwritingaletter!
1) Superman has killed. In the comic. More than once. And if Mark Waid doesn't know that he's either selectively forgetting it, or he's a dunce and needs to turn in his comic-book card.
Or, you know, he hated it when it happened in the comics too. Since I know he’s not a dunce, and since I know he knows Superman’s history backward and forward, I’m thinking this third option is the most likely.
I realize this - and lord knows I have enough of Mark's books on my shelf that I can't say I don't admire the man's work. But a wealth of knowledge doesn't give you automatic immunity from missing the point. Based on his writing, he was clearly pining for another Superman...a Superman whose story has already been told. He's entitled not to like it, just as I'm entitled to say I don't agree. Won't stop me from buying his books or wanting to meet him at conventions, but I think he really missed the boat on this what this movie was trying to accomplish.
The "dunce" was said with love and admiration. Let's remember he was "Evil" a few publications back. :)
That’s fine, and I agree with you that he was pining for the Superman he grew up admiring, but I don’t think he missed the boat on what the film was trying to accomplish. I think he saw perfectly well what it was trying to accomplish and was disgusted by it. A minor difference perhaps as far as the end result of his hating the film, but a difference worth noting, as he seems to be far from alone in his views.
From all appearances, having Superman kill Zod feels to me like more of a business decision than a creative decision. And I’m not saying WB went the wrong direction from a financial perspective and the longterm health of the franchise. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. I think we'll have to wait to see how successful the next film is—or perhaps how well the merchandise for this film does—before we can really judge that.
From a purely creative standpoint, I pretty much agree with Mark, though not quite as passionately (a little Superman goes a long way for me). From a purely business standpoint, I remain neutral. I think it’s too early to say exactly who’s “right” and who’s “wrong.”
After digging into those reviews i agree moreso than not with Waid and that Ty guy. For I think the Ty person sums up what Ive tried to express. As I see the character, youre supposed to wonder what it would be like and hope and wish Superman were real... not dread it.
After digging into those reviews i agree moreso than not with Waid and that Ty guy. For I think the Ty person sums up what Ive tried to express. As I see the character, youre supposed to wonder what it would be like and hope and wish Superman were real... not dread it.
Then put me in the Batman/Luther corner. I don't want anyone with that kind of power. Power can corrupt. Especially power given, not earned.
This whole thing could be one big con to lower our defenses. I've read Invincible. I've read To Serve Man.
I'd align with Superman, but don't think for one single minute I'm not working on contingency plans & weaknesses.
After digging into those reviews i agree moreso than not with Waid and that Ty guy. For I think the Ty person sums up what Ive tried to express. As I see the character, youre supposed to wonder what it would be like and hope and wish Superman were real... not dread it.
Then put me in the Batman/Luther corner. I don't want anyone with that kind of power. Power can corrupt. Especially power given, not earned.
This whole thing could be one big con to lower our defenses. I've read Invincible. I've read To Serve Man.
I'd align with Superman, but don't think for one single minute I'm not working on contingency plans & weaknesses.
From a purely creative standpoint, I pretty much agree with Mark, though not quite as passionately (a little Superman goes a long way for me). From a purely business standpoint, I remain neutral. I think it’s too early to say exactly who’s “right” and who’s “wrong.”
As mentioned, when we have a Captain Marvel movie where Cap is breaking necks, Mary's baring her cleavage in a quick shot to titillate the pre-teens, and Freddy's a pot-smoker, I will be 100% in the shoes Waid is wearing right now. :)
This never struck me as a "right" vs "wrong" argument. More of a "This is not the Superman I have grown up to believe in" as opposed to "This is the Superman movie I've been wanting to see them make."
It probably wouldn't have hurt to show one of those old panels from back in Superman's heydey where he was actually cleaning up after his messes. Y'know putting the top of a building back on the bottom half, somehow magically restoring it by doing so.
And where was the bowling alley with the oversized pins in his Fortress of Solitude?
Or the dinosaur he rode?
Bring THAT Superman back...I triple dog dare ya! :)
From a purely creative standpoint, I pretty much agree with Mark, though not quite as passionately (a little Superman goes a long way for me). From a purely business standpoint, I remain neutral. I think it’s too early to say exactly who’s “right” and who’s “wrong.”
As mentioned, when we have a Captain Marvel movie where Cap is breaking necks, Mary's baring her cleavage in a quick shot to titillate the pre-teens, and Freddy's a pot-smoker, I will be 100% in the shoes Waid is wearing right now. :)
This never struck me as a "right" vs "wrong" argument. More of a "This is not the Superman I have grown up to believe in" as opposed to "This is the Superman movie I've been wanting to see them make."
1) Superman has killed. In the comic. More than once. And if Mark Waid doesn't know that he's either selectively forgetting it, or he's a dunce and needs to turn in his comic-book card. More importantly, there were repercussions for it. Superman didn't just gloss over it when he killed Zod in the books. You guys need to take the Boy Scout argument over to the Shazam movie...if they ever make it. :P
2) Yep, thousands...tens of thousands...died in that battle over Metropolis. As opposed to the complete extermination of the human race. I'll take those odds. Sure, Supes could have "moved the fight" to somewhere else...but Zod would have moved it right back. He knew what he was doing.
3) Amy Adams is a cutie. How old was Margot Kidder during the Reeve movies? Because she looked like she was 50. :)
4) Let's not forget that a common internet argument pre-MoS was that you simply couldn't make a good Superman movie and have it be relevant anymore. It would not surprise me to discover the same people arguing that point are the same people hand-wringing themselves now over this movie because it *wasn't* the same-old same old and dared to bring something new to the table.
5) Was this movie everything I wanted it to be? No. But it was a hell of a lot more than I expected it to be. "Krypton had its chance!" Holy shit, man...if you're really a Superman fan that line had so much weight it would have left a hole in the ground where it hit.
6) I *really* don't get the joyless comments. Sure, it wasn't a yuk-fest, and Richard Pryor was nowhere to be found, but there were some great bits that brought smiles to the faces in the crowd (at least where I was watching it...maybe the rest of America has no sense of humor the way we Phoenicians do! :) ).
margo was 28 (i think) during production of movies 1 and 2. Terri Hatcher was 28 during season 1.
And as if my boys, @chuck_melville & @wetrats needed ANOTHER reason to hate this new DC universe; from Wikipedia (though I'm certain this wont happen):
Sequel
On June 10, 2013, it was announced that director Zack Snyder and screenwriter David S. Goyer would both be returning for a Man of Steel sequel which is being fast tracked by Warner Bros. Goyer had previously signed a three-film deal, which included Man of Steel, its sequel, and a Justice League film featuring Superman. Christopher Nolan is also expected to return as producer, albeit in a lesser role than he had in this film.[118]Man of Steel 2 is rumored to being fast-tracked for a 2014 release and will feature the new Batman and Wonder Woman will be Superman's love interest.[119]
M
this rumor about it being fast tracked for next year... yea. That aint happening. Also, i wouldn't mind at all if they switched directors. I like Snyder, but I don't love his like I love Nolan and to me there's no reason for franchises to ALWAYS stick with the same director. Similar writing is good, because you don't want movies veering from one feel to another movie to movie (like... say between Batman Returns and Batman Forever), but I don't feel like the director HAS to be Snyder. But I guess that ship has sailed.
How do people feel about the Krypton stuff? If you had told me before the movie "hey, look, Jor-El is gonna ride around on a great big flying horse, run from Zod's forces, and dive into a pool of unborn children," I would have said: that sounds terrible. BUT I LOVED IT. Like the music during all that very much. Liked Jor-El much more than I thought I would (although, overall there was 20% too much of him later in the movie) and I wanted more flying horse action!
My respect for him just went back up on learning this.
It seems that Goyer and Snyder were intending this to be the basis for his adopting a no killing code, which makes it a little easier for me to accept, but I still think they wound up handling it badly. There should a short scene at the end where he formally adopts that code; that final scene with Martha would have been a good place to fit it in.
Someone posting their review - and someone coming in to counter every point - is not a discussion. It's someone with a grudge. If your "response" has "see my answer elsewhere" or you start to take offense with a comment, you've moved beyond discussion to YOU LISTEN TO WHAT I'M SAYING!
What WE'RE having is a discussion. What this thread has turned into is something else. And what I'm doing is posting while at work so back to the grind! Have fun! Or not. Your call. :)
There is no value in trying to shout someone down or convince them to stop discussing and debating. Especially when even some of those most involved in the discussion, on various sides, like @Wetrats, @Matt, and @Chuck_Melville are reading and considering what others are saying, and responding to those points to keep the discussion going, and staying civil while doing so.
And it is not like we have limited real estate-- there is still plenty of room for others to comment, or for new opinions to come in.
Nothing wrong with an active discussion. It is what this place is for, and there are few enough threads that get going like this one these days.
But, if this discussion is not for you, or if you no longer have patience for those who may see things a different way and want to actively participate, you can always choose to move on to a different thread.
Does anyone else see the similarities between MOS and Batman Begins?
1. Origin stories 2. Flashbacks to when they were children 3. Killing the villain at the end 4. Not so much a superhero story, but more a crime (BAB) / sci-fi (MOS) story
Does anyone else see the similarities between MOS and Batman Begins?
1. Origin stories 2. Flashbacks to when they were children 3. Killing the villain at the end 4. Not so much a superhero story, but more a crime (BAB) / sci-fi (MOS) story
More?
I agree with those that have described this movie as "Superman Begins". For me, one of the things that worked more in Batman Begins is that we had multiple kinds of villains for him to deal with: there was the villain tied to his origins (Ghul), but also the villain of old Gotham (Falcone), as well as the new kind of villain that might be emerging BECAUSE of Batman (Scarecrow, and the tease for Joker). For me, Batman Begins succeeded in getting beyond the origin story, because in fighting Falcone and Scarecrow, we got a sense of what Batman would continue to do moving forward.
Man of Steel only gave us the Kryptonian threat. I could have used a sense of what else Superman intends to do. And a sense of how the world has changed (other than in getting-ripped apart sorts of ways) now that there is a Superman in it. But, in the case of Man of Steel, I guess they are saving all of that for the next movie. Which feels a little stingy, compared to all that Batman Begins was able to do in the first film.
Comments
Sequel
On June 10, 2013, it was announced that director Zack Snyder and screenwriter David S. Goyer would both be returning for a Man of Steel sequel which is being fast tracked by Warner Bros. Goyer had previously signed a three-film deal, which included Man of Steel, its sequel, and a Justice League film featuring Superman. Christopher Nolan is also expected to return as producer, albeit in a lesser role than he had in this film.[118]Man of Steel 2 is rumored to being fast-tracked for a 2014 release and will feature the new Batman and Wonder Woman will be Superman's love interest.[119]
M
I get thin-skinned after a long weekend of high emotions, hard words loom larger to me than smilies and winkies.*
I think Waid and I picked up on said points, we just disagreed.
*Heh. "Winkies."
Ultimately we're all armchair directors, arguing how we could have done it differently (which in our minds tends to read as "better"). It's like the old joke about guitarists: How many does it take to screw in a lightbulb? 26. One to actually do it and 25 to bitch and say they could do it better than that hack. :)
I was pissed with Byrne when he made Superman make the same "mistake".
And don't get me started on the Doomsday Debacle.
Weren't they supposed to be trying for a more human Superman?
Having him hook up with another demigod just emphasizes his otherness.
Hey, @Torchsong, can you loan me a puking smiley?
But with that movie, a very clear message was sent out - that version is done. We, the ticket buying public, don't need to see it anymore. We don't need Miss Tessmacher, or Lex as a goofball, or a Superman with a spitcurl and a knowing wink to the camera. It's great that those movies exist, but we don't need another version of it. Doesn't help that the whole Superkid angle was a shambling mess, but that's another thread...
I felt the same way when they updated the Marvel Family to make Billy a near-God and Mary a whore. So I get the pain...and I griped about it...but at the same time, I found things to enjoy about that turn of events as well. Freddy's maturation, for one thing. Jury's still out on the N52 version of Cap, but we'll give it a little time...
And I liked it when Batman & Wonder Woman had a thing in JLA. Now it seems like she's getting past around like a peace pipe. Some "royalty!"
M
M
The Fleischer cartoons come closest.
My Superman is an accumulation/amalgamation of all the purest, most ideal aspects of what Superman can be, which eschews the blemishes like superdickery and grittiness.
Put me in the camp that does NOT want a rush job on the sequel.
Of course, this Superman was more Magoggy.*
*I'm gonna be saying "Magoggy" for the rest of the day. And "Winkie."
8-}
From all appearances, having Superman kill Zod feels to me like more of a business decision than a creative decision. And I’m not saying WB went the wrong direction from a financial perspective and the longterm health of the franchise. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. I think we'll have to wait to see how successful the next film is—or perhaps how well the merchandise for this film does—before we can really judge that.
From a purely creative standpoint, I pretty much agree with Mark, though not quite as passionately (a little Superman goes a long way for me). From a purely business standpoint, I remain neutral. I think it’s too early to say exactly who’s “right” and who’s “wrong.”
For I think the Ty person sums up what Ive tried to express. As I see the character, youre supposed to wonder what it would be like and hope and wish Superman were real... not dread it.
This whole thing could be one big con to lower our defenses. I've read Invincible. I've read To Serve Man.
I'd align with Superman, but don't think for one single minute I'm not working on contingency plans & weaknesses.
M
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jordanzakarin/man-of-steel-destruction-death-analysis
This never struck me as a "right" vs "wrong" argument. More of a "This is not the Superman I have grown up to believe in" as opposed to "This is the Superman movie I've been wanting to see them make."
More than once.
And where was the bowling alley with the oversized pins in his Fortress of Solitude?
Or the dinosaur he rode?
Bring THAT Superman back...I triple dog dare ya! :)
Chris Nolan disagreed with controversial ending
I'm not surprised to learn that Nolan was not behind the ending ....
How do people feel about the Krypton stuff? If you had told me before the movie "hey, look, Jor-El is gonna ride around on a great big flying horse, run from Zod's forces, and dive into a pool of unborn children," I would have said: that sounds terrible. BUT I LOVED IT. Like the music during all that very much. Liked Jor-El much more than I thought I would (although, overall there was 20% too much of him later in the movie) and I wanted more flying horse action!
It seems that Goyer and Snyder were intending this to be the basis for his adopting a no killing code, which makes it a little easier for me to accept, but I still think they wound up handling it badly. There should a short scene at the end where he formally adopts that code; that final scene with Martha would have been a good place to fit it in.
And it is not like we have limited real estate-- there is still plenty of room for others to comment, or for new opinions to come in.
Nothing wrong with an active discussion. It is what this place is for, and there are few enough threads that get going like this one these days.
But, if this discussion is not for you, or if you no longer have patience for those who may see things a different way and want to actively participate, you can always choose to move on to a different thread.
1. Origin stories
2. Flashbacks to when they were children
3. Killing the villain at the end
4. Not so much a superhero story, but more a crime (BAB) / sci-fi (MOS) story
More?
Man of Steel only gave us the Kryptonian threat. I could have used a sense of what else Superman intends to do. And a sense of how the world has changed (other than in getting-ripped apart sorts of ways) now that there is a Superman in it. But, in the case of Man of Steel, I guess they are saving all of that for the next movie. Which feels a little stingy, compared to all that Batman Begins was able to do in the first film.