The New 52 has failed to entice me. I pick up a couple of Vertigo titles (Trillium & Fables - both will be ending soon) and then that will signal the end of DC getting any money or interest for me. I even skip the Previews of them. Whenever CGS talks about any new DC books, I have no interest whatsoever. In my opinion, DC ruined it.
There is no excuse for DC to be selling junk. They ought to strap Jeff Lemire up to a machine, feed him intravenously, keep him writing 24 hours a day until the ship is righted at DC. Maybe it was the “WTF Certified” Batman and Red Robin #19 that sealed the deal with me and DC. After Carrie Kelley's triumphant in-continuity debut as Robin.
I've given up on ever reconciling New 52 history with pre-Flashpoint DCU history - maybe one day we will get a real History of the DC Universe? Doubtful.
Batman (til Snyder leaves) Wonder Woman (til Azzarello leaves)
Here's what I'm keeping current on:
Green Lantern Green Lantern Corps Green Lantern New Guardians Red Lanterns (Supergirl too while the Red Daughter thing is happening) Sinestro Larfleeze
(all of which I have to stay up on for the podcast I do)
Here's what I'm interested in staying current on but can't be bothered right now:
Earth 2 Phantom Stranger Flash Aquaman Aquaman and the Others Justice League Justice League 3000 Secret Origins
THAT is the key right now. That category. Things I'm EXCITED about I'm only excited enough about to wait for the trade. Keeping up with the stuff for the show is a chore because most of it sucks (Though NG and RL are getting much better/interesting) and there are things I WANT to read but am just like "Eh, I'm sure I'll get to it eventually".
But the BIG thing that bugs me about the New 52 isn't the titles. It's DC themselves. They're making AWFUL decisions and it's really impacting my passion and fandom. Sorry but it's true. There's probably some great stuff out there, but there's FAR too much negative out there for me to be excited about the BEST from them (Batman) and even THEN I'm only excited enough to trade wait.
And something else I don't like about the New 52, and IDK if it'll mean anything to you, but does anyone else HATE this Superman? I haven't read much of him, but the boy scout is no longer "boy scoutish". He's as much of a douche as the rest of them. I miss the "aww shucks" Superman. The "ma and pa Kent" Superman. The "getting kittens out of trees"/"stubborn and often aggravating refusal to kill"/"superhero world moral compass"/"standard by which all are judged" Superman.
Is it just me, or is that Superman gone from DC altogether?
Is it just me, or is that Superman gone from DC altogether?
I'm afraid so.
Despite not being a HUGE Superman fan, that bugs me. I may not have read his title, but I liked knowing he was there. And when he DID show up in other titles, that personality and introduction of perspective was welcome.
Is it just me, or is that Superman gone from DC altogether?
I'm afraid so.
Despite not being a HUGE Superman fan, that bugs me. I may not have read his title, but I liked knowing he was there. And when he DID show up in other titles, that personality and introduction of perspective was welcome.
Yep. Me too.*
*See nigh-endless iterations of my feelings on the subject on the Man of Steel thread and various other threads which have drifted into this area.
Batman (til Snyder leaves) Wonder Woman (til Azzarello leaves)
Here's what I'm keeping current on:
Green Lantern Green Lantern Corps Green Lantern New Guardians Red Lanterns (Supergirl too while the Red Daughter thing is happening) Sinestro Larfleeze
(all of which I have to stay up on for the podcast I do)
Here's what I'm interested in staying current on but can't be bothered right now:
Earth 2 Phantom Stranger Flash Aquaman Aquaman and the Others Justice League Justice League 3000 Secret Origins
THAT is the key right now. That category. Things I'm EXCITED about I'm only excited enough about to wait for the trade. Keeping up with the stuff for the show is a chore because most of it sucks (Though NG and RL are getting much better/interesting) and there are things I WANT to read but am just like "Eh, I'm sure I'll get to it eventually".
But the BIG thing that bugs me about the New 52 isn't the titles. It's DC themselves. They're making AWFUL decisions and it's really impacting my passion and fandom. Sorry but it's true. There's probably some great stuff out there, but there's FAR too much negative out there for me to be excited about the BEST from them (Batman) and even THEN I'm only excited enough to trade wait.
And something else I don't like about the New 52, and IDK if it'll mean anything to you, but does anyone else HATE this Superman? I haven't read much of him, but the boy scout is no longer "boy scoutish". He's as much of a douche as the rest of them. I miss the "aww shucks" Superman. The "ma and pa Kent" Superman. The "getting kittens out of trees"/"stubborn and often aggravating refusal to kill"/"superhero world moral compass"/"standard by which all are judged" Superman.
Is it just me, or is that Superman gone from DC altogether?
I hate this superman. He alternates between being a total douche or someone who seemingly has no idea what they want, which would be fine if this was a 16 year old version of the character, but its not.
He wasn't exactly 100% those things pre-new 52, but he was MUCH more them.
I like to think that I am exactly the type of comic buyer that DC was targeting with the introduction of the Nu52. I was a "casual" DC reader, had 5 or 6 DC titles on my pull list, and although I liked DC, I found the history convoluted and confusing and the whole world not nearly as compelling as Marvel. I wasn't crazy about the idea of a "re-launch" (especially because my favourite DC character, Booster Gold, was getting his book cancelled), but the possibility of getting in on the ground floor was exciting (the same excitement I felt back with the "re-boot" of Superman in the 80's and the Legends Mini-series).
I didn't pick up EVERYTHING during that first wave, but I gave a lot of it a shot, that I normally would have passed over. I think I managed to increase the DC portion of my pull list to probably 8 or 9 DC titles (probably about half of what I tried). So initially, as an attempt from DC to get me to buy more monthly titles... it worked. There was some good stuff, and from what I added to my pull list I enjoyed (OMAC was probably my favourite). Unfortunately, the honeymoon didn't last long. DC axed pretty much everything that I was enjoying, and what they didn't take away from me, the quality plummeted, and I cancelled. The attempts at new titles to replace the ones they cancelled didn't hold any interest for me.
So now... I buy ZERO DC titles.
Whatever interest I had in DC withered away and I no longer care about that universe. I pick up the odd title off the rack at my LCS, but I shrug my shoulders and quickly put it back. I'm not saying I will never buy another DC book, but it is going to take something big to regain my interest. And this current/recent event; "Villains United" or "Age of Evil" or whatever the hell it is called, sure isn't it. It is just an affirmation that I am glad I'm not giving DC anymore of my hard earned cash.
New DC = New Coke. Time to admit it didn't work (for me at least) and switch back the the old formula.
I don't think there will ever be a story, like Flashpoint, that reverts the universe back. If anything we'll see things slowly revert back to something close to the pre-Flashpoint universe.
I don't think there will ever be a story, like Flashpoint, that reverts the universe back. If anything we'll see things slowly revert back to something close to the pre-Flashpoint universe.
Of course now they're tinkering with the whole story of how Nu52 came to be... who KNOWS what they're up to?
I don't think there will ever be a story, like Flashpoint, that reverts the universe back. If anything we'll see things slowly revert back to something close to the pre-Flashpoint universe.
That's exactly what I think will happen, just like how all of the Silver Age elements that were eliminated by Crisis on Infinite Earths were gradually re-integrated into the DCU over the following 20-25 years, I think that it will be impossible for DC to completely escape that enormous history and back catalogue in the long run.
A total hard reboot might have prolonged the re-integration, but the fact that Green Lantern, Batman, and LoSH had such soft reboots (really not reboots at all), leaves the door open for the pre-Flashpoint DCU to slowly leak its way back into the New 52. My prediction is that the 1st thing that reverts back is Tim Drake being the 3rd Robin between Jason Todd and Damian.
I have completely lost interest. I started off reading all 52 books and even into a year in I was still reading about 10-15 titles. At this point the only book I read monthly is Justice League and frankly that hasn't been good since issue 6. It's amazing how much much interest I lost.
I was (and still am) all for DC doing what they did. DC had to do something. There are still some great titles that people seem to be enjoying. I switched 100% to trades when DC went N52 (I hate that term).
I'm still getting Wonder Woman, Swamp Thing, Allstar Western, Animal Man, and a few others. The post-flashpoint DC gave us some great comics like the new Dail H, Frankenstien (wheich fell apart after it was announced as cancelled) and OMAC.
There were some mistakes (not a complete reboot, announcing some arbitrary 5 years timeline, and Bob Harras), but over I think it had to be done. Remember 30 years ago the guys hating on the Post Flashpoint DC were defending Post Crisis DC;)
Post Crisis meant Batman: Year One, George Perez on Wonder Woman, John Byrne on Superman, and the seamless continuation of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run as it built Vertigo. And that's just to name a few. Things like Killing Joke, Sandman, Morrison's Animal Man, Legends, all started up a year or two after Crisis.
I know that some of those things (particularly Byrne) could be controversial, but that is an undeniable amount of quality, innovative comic booking that the New 52 can't hold a candle to.
And I'm generally a New 52 supporter/apologist. Yeah, I'm down on it overall, but I agree that "they had to do something", and I can point to about a dozen DC titles that I've generally enjoyed over the last 2 and a half years (even if I'm only still buying a handful at the moment).
Besides that, I don't think it's the same people complaining. It's the generation that grew up with Post-Crisis that's complaining. The demographics are so much different now. I'm sure that in 1985 there were some 30-to-50-year-old men who still cared about comics, but not like today.
I do wonder how this whole thing would have worked if they just released 52 new #1 issues, with the implicit understanding that these are all new jumping-on points, but kept the same background continuity.
Like others have said, this "half in half out" stuff was problematic.
For all the talk of editorial heavy-handedness, the one thing I wish DC editorial would have been firm on was just a sense of "WHAT IS THIS?". The universe just never felt cohesive, and with almost every character and title it was a guessing game of "What actually happened in the past?" Very few writers have been able to balance the sense of getting the readers to discover what happened with getting (long-time) readers to feel that their knowledge of the old continuity was actually worthwhile for these new titles going forward.
It hasn't been perfect, but I think Snyder and particularly Soule did a good job in that regard with Swamp Thing. It's not the same Swamp Thing I used to know, and not everything I read a decade or two back still "counts". But the new writers explained things in a way that seemed simultaneously interesting, new, different, and respectful to what had come before. It wasn't perfect -- at times it was a bit pedantic -- but they did a generally good job. I can't say the same for many other DC titles now. I don't really care to know these characters; it just seems to be a case of "fast food" comics, where I will continue buying whatever title is decent enough at the time. But am I building a sense of familiarity and affection for these versions of these characters? With only a few exceptions (like Swamp Thing and Green Arrow) the answer is No. I don't care about them; it's more like I read them out of habit because the comics aren't bad enough to offend me.
So do we think that DC would ever switch back to the old continuity or are they just in too deep now?
I don't think the old continuity was the answer, either. If the fans wanted it, they should have shown it more support (and by that, I mean actual financial support) back before the New 52 launch. So I can't imagine them seeing it as a solution now. Plus the optics of it would be to treat the New 52 as a mistake. I know many longtime fans see it as a mistake. But I don't think DC Entertainment would benefit from committing to that as a narrative.
So do we think that DC would ever switch back to the old continuity or are they just in too deep now?
I don't think the old continuity was the answer, either. If the fans wanted it, they should have shown it more support (and by that, I mean actual financial support) back before the New 52 launch. So I can't imagine them seeing it as a solution now. Plus the optics of it would be to treat the New 52 as a mistake. I know many longtime fans see it as a mistake. But I don't think DC Entertainment would benefit from committing to that as a narrative.
Its crazy to me that anyone ever thought DC would go back. The day Justice League #1 came out I knew the Post-Crisis DC universe was gone forever. DC has sent out a lot of mixed messages on the subject but this is clearly intended to be the DCU for the next generation of readers. Now that its been a few years, what good comes from revisiting a 25 year old universe that hasn't been active in almost 3. As someone else mentioned before, they would be better served by slowly intergrating the elements of Pre-52 that worked back into the New 52 the way Marvel slowly ultimized 616 when the Ultimate universe was outselling their primary titles.
DC tried to have it both ways early on leaving how much had changed a fuzzy grey area. But they have leaned into the new universe harder and harder as time has gone on. I don't even think that's the problem. DC did this because these are the stories they want to tell. Nothing ever prevented them from continuing to tell the kinds of stories they were before, but they see a benefit to doing this meaner darker DCU and lean into it harder every month.
I'm not the audience now. Which is stupid and sad. I should be. I could be. I want to be. Don't know who the audience is either? 14 year old ultra progressives with ADHD? For me, the problem with DC isn't just what's been taken away, but mostly what's been added (or crammed in). The company has taken a radical deliberate "left" turn. Maintaining that appears to be their priority. Not making the best most interesting or entertaining product possible. The company has no idea what it's doing or where it's going and the bosses ruin (to varrying degrees) anything halfway decent with what are obviously their absurd mandates and politics. The main problem with DC then and now isn't continuity or costumes. It's quality, commitment and consistency. At least pre new52 their product had history and a degree of heart (and little propaganda). Now it's not just blah, but annoying, predictable and soulless IMO. What have they fixed or improved? What is genuinely "better" now vs before? The art? The writing/stories? The continuity? The designs? The experience? Any "improvements" have been very few, minor and only temporary.
DC had pretty much already lost me as a reader years before the new 52 launch. All the problems they've had were already evident, either the renewed focus made them more obvious, or they got worse.
Batman Incorporated kept me around a while, but once that was done I was gone. I'll come back for Multiversity if it ever surfaces (it was officially announced in Sept 2012!), but under current management I just don't see me returning as a full time reader.
I lived through 90s Marvel Comics once, I don't need to do it a second time.
I don't know if DC will ever go back to pre-Flashpoint, but I do believe this is a phase that will eventually pass, whether it be in a few months or in several years. I just have to wait it out. The only thing I have to fear is that the next phase could be even worse.
I'm not the audience now. Which is stupid and sad. I should be. I could be. I want to be. Don't know who the audience is either? 14 year old ultra progressives with ADHD? For me, the problem with DC isn't just what's been taken away, but mostly what's been added (or crammed in). The company has taken a radical deliberate "left" turn. Maintaining that appears to be their priority. Not making the best most interesting or entertaining product possible. The company has no idea what it's doing or where it's going and the bosses ruin (to varrying degrees) anything halfway decent with what are obviously their absurd mandates and politics. The main problem with DC then and now isn't continuity or costumes. It's quality, commitment and consistency. At least pre new52 their product had history and a degree of heart (and little propaganda). Now it's not just blah, but annoying, predictable and soulless IMO. What have they fixed or improved? What is genuinely "better" now vs before? The art? The writing/stories? The continuity? The designs? The experience? Any "improvements" have been very few, minor and only temporary.
I see some of what you're saying, but there's also a lot of non-"progressive" stuff with boobs spilling everywhere and grim-n-gritty violence. I think all of this stuff on the whole spectrum is just part and parcel of DC not really knowing what they want to do or who this stuff is for.
A few times on CGS recently the guys have cursed DC for making dark/violent/boob-filled comics "for 18-year-old boys". Well... not to defend those projects... but who SHOULD DC be making their comics for, in order to TRY and expand the audience? 40-somethings who want comics to be more innocent and kid-friendly? Usually the "for 18-year-old boys" criticisms have been brought up while bemoaning the lack of Kids WB! animated-style tie-ins, or while cursing DC for choosing a grimmer Justice League over a nostalgic Bwahaha-era redux.
Ideally DC should be able to hit a ton of demographics, and I believe their line was doing that post-Crisis. You had teenagers reading the bulk of the DCU comics; you had older fans who liked Vertigo; and you had younger kids coming in all the time, picking up their first Batman and Superman books. In retrospect that "sweet spot" that DC was in from roughly 1986 to 1996 seems to be a huge exception in the history of comics. Before then comics were pretty much JUST for kids, and after that it seems like comics are almost JUST for aging adults. The Big Two try to bring in new readers but have a much harder time reaching kids and teenagers than they've ever had in the past. If anything, in targeting most of their comics to "18-year-old boys" DC are trying to pick up an audience that's twice as young as the audience they've got.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's just awfully strange that we're in a spot where 40-year-olds would be happier with their comics if they read like something a 12-year-old would read, not like something a 20-year-old would read. And I'm not saying anyone who makes this criticism is wrong. In fact I share a lot of the criticisms of the abundance of grim-n-gritty in the New 52. But I'm just saying it's a strange place we find ourselves in.
Is there enough of a comic book reading audience left to support a publisher's "universe" long term?
65k in estimated sales gives you a top 10 book. Nearly every book regardless of quality loses readers every month (unless there is some kind of gimmick) The highest selling regular non Batman related DC title is Green Lantern at 45k.
"Acknowledging that there were significant changes made during each period" - the silver age DC universe lasted 30 years, and the post crisis universe lasted roughly 25 years. Does anyone really believe the sales numbers or interest is there to keep the N52 universe alive greater than 10 years? What title outside of Batman could you see hitting issue 100?
With the changes in readership size and habits, the idea of a long term universe may no longer be a realistic idea with the DC.
So do we think that DC would ever switch back to the old continuity or are they just in too deep now?
I don't think the old continuity was the answer, either. If the fans wanted it, they should have shown it more support (and by that, I mean actual financial support) back before the New 52 launch. So I can't imagine them seeing it as a solution now. Plus the optics of it would be to treat the New 52 as a mistake. I know many longtime fans see it as a mistake. But I don't think DC Entertainment would benefit from committing to that as a narrative.
Its crazy to me that anyone ever thought DC would go back. The day Justice League #1 came out I knew the Post-Crisis DC universe was gone forever. DC has sent out a lot of mixed messages on the subject but this is clearly intended to be the DCU for the next generation of readers. Now that its been a few years, what good comes from revisiting a 25 year old universe that hasn't been active in almost 3. As someone else mentioned before, they would be better served by slowly intergrating the elements of Pre-52 that worked back into the New 52 the way Marvel slowly ultimized 616 when the Ultimate universe was outselling their primary titles.
DC tried to have it both ways early on leaving how much had changed a fuzzy grey area. But they have leaned into the new universe harder and harder as time has gone on. I don't even think that's the problem. DC did this because these are the stories they want to tell. Nothing ever prevented them from continuing to tell the kinds of stories they were before, but they see a benefit to doing this meaner darker DCU and lean into it harder every month.
Not sure the median age range of people in this discussion, but for demographic purposes, I'm 32 years old. I started getting into comic books in 1987/1988, so this was fairly immediately post-COIE DC that I began reading (my first issue of Batman was the middle chapter of "A Lonely Place of Dying"). I'm in that group of people for whom Tim Drake is my Robin, and Byrne's Man of Steel is the defining Superman origin story (mixed in with Donner's Superman movie).
I'm curious how many of you are similar in age/experience, and if you feel that has something to do with your reaction to the New 52. Just like post-COIE DC ended up re-incorporating pre-Crisis elements that were initially eliminated such as other Kryptonian survivors, multiple Earths, Silver Age events, etc., I definitely think that the New 52 over the course of its lifetime will slowly but surely trickle back in elements that have been lost in the reboot. Hell, Barry Allen came back to the pre-New 52 universe, it took 25 years, but that just shows you that ANYTHING in comics can be changed, reversed, or otherwise undone.
But I guess my question is why is that? We've had a consistent Marvel universe since the beginning, just shifting the times things happened. It may have a lot of continuity to deal with but for me at least that makes it all the richer.
Comments
There is no excuse for DC to be selling junk. They ought to strap Jeff Lemire up to a machine, feed him intravenously, keep him writing 24 hours a day until the ship is righted at DC. Maybe it was the “WTF Certified” Batman and Red Robin #19 that sealed the deal with me and DC.
After Carrie Kelley's triumphant in-continuity debut as Robin.I've given up on ever reconciling New 52 history with pre-Flashpoint DCU history - maybe one day we will get a real History of the DC Universe? Doubtful.
Here's what I'm getting (in trade):
Batman (til Snyder leaves)
Wonder Woman (til Azzarello leaves)
Here's what I'm keeping current on:
Green Lantern
Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern New Guardians
Red Lanterns (Supergirl too while the Red Daughter thing is happening)
Sinestro
Larfleeze
(all of which I have to stay up on for the podcast I do)
Here's what I'm interested in staying current on but can't be bothered right now:
Earth 2
Phantom Stranger
Flash
Aquaman
Aquaman and the Others
Justice League
Justice League 3000
Secret Origins
THAT is the key right now. That category. Things I'm EXCITED about I'm only excited enough about to wait for the trade. Keeping up with the stuff for the show is a chore because most of it sucks (Though NG and RL are getting much better/interesting) and there are things I WANT to read but am just like "Eh, I'm sure I'll get to it eventually".
But the BIG thing that bugs me about the New 52 isn't the titles. It's DC themselves. They're making AWFUL decisions and it's really impacting my passion and fandom. Sorry but it's true. There's probably some great stuff out there, but there's FAR too much negative out there for me to be excited about the BEST from them (Batman) and even THEN I'm only excited enough to trade wait.
And something else I don't like about the New 52, and IDK if it'll mean anything to you, but does anyone else HATE this Superman? I haven't read much of him, but the boy scout is no longer "boy scoutish". He's as much of a douche as the rest of them. I miss the "aww shucks" Superman. The "ma and pa Kent" Superman. The "getting kittens out of trees"/"stubborn and often aggravating refusal to kill"/"superhero world moral compass"/"standard by which all are judged" Superman.
Is it just me, or is that Superman gone from DC altogether?
*See nigh-endless iterations of my feelings on the subject on the Man of Steel thread and various other threads which have drifted into this area.
He wasn't exactly 100% those things pre-new 52, but he was MUCH more them.
I wasn't crazy about the idea of a "re-launch" (especially because my favourite DC character, Booster Gold, was getting his book cancelled), but the possibility of getting in on the ground floor was exciting (the same excitement I felt back with the "re-boot" of Superman in the 80's and the Legends Mini-series).
I didn't pick up EVERYTHING during that first wave, but I gave a lot of it a shot, that I normally would have passed over. I think I managed to increase the DC portion of my pull list to probably 8 or 9 DC titles (probably about half of what I tried). So initially, as an attempt from DC to get me to buy more monthly titles... it worked. There was some good stuff, and from what I added to my pull list I enjoyed (OMAC was probably my favourite). Unfortunately, the honeymoon didn't last long. DC axed pretty much everything that I was enjoying, and what they didn't take away from me, the quality plummeted, and I cancelled. The attempts at new titles to replace the ones they cancelled didn't hold any interest for me.
So now... I buy ZERO DC titles.
Whatever interest I had in DC withered away and I no longer care about that universe. I pick up the odd title off the rack at my LCS, but I shrug my shoulders and quickly put it back. I'm not saying I will never buy another DC book, but it is going to take something big to regain my interest. And this current/recent event; "Villains United" or "Age of Evil" or whatever the hell it is called, sure isn't it. It is just an affirmation that I am glad I'm not giving DC anymore of my hard earned cash.
New DC = New Coke. Time to admit it didn't work (for me at least) and switch back the the old formula.
A total hard reboot might have prolonged the re-integration, but the fact that Green Lantern, Batman, and LoSH had such soft reboots (really not reboots at all), leaves the door open for the pre-Flashpoint DCU to slowly leak its way back into the New 52. My prediction is that the 1st thing that reverts back is Tim Drake being the 3rd Robin between Jason Todd and Damian.
At least we've got Batman: The Brave and The Bold on Netflix.
I know that some of those things (particularly Byrne) could be controversial, but that is an undeniable amount of quality, innovative comic booking that the New 52 can't hold a candle to.
And I'm generally a New 52 supporter/apologist. Yeah, I'm down on it overall, but I agree that "they had to do something", and I can point to about a dozen DC titles that I've generally enjoyed over the last 2 and a half years (even if I'm only still buying a handful at the moment).
Besides that, I don't think it's the same people complaining. It's the generation that grew up with Post-Crisis that's complaining. The demographics are so much different now. I'm sure that in 1985 there were some 30-to-50-year-old men who still cared about comics, but not like today.
I do wonder how this whole thing would have worked if they just released 52 new #1 issues, with the implicit understanding that these are all new jumping-on points, but kept the same background continuity.
Like others have said, this "half in half out" stuff was problematic.
For all the talk of editorial heavy-handedness, the one thing I wish DC editorial would have been firm on was just a sense of "WHAT IS THIS?". The universe just never felt cohesive, and with almost every character and title it was a guessing game of "What actually happened in the past?" Very few writers have been able to balance the sense of getting the readers to discover what happened with getting (long-time) readers to feel that their knowledge of the old continuity was actually worthwhile for these new titles going forward.
It hasn't been perfect, but I think Snyder and particularly Soule did a good job in that regard with Swamp Thing. It's not the same Swamp Thing I used to know, and not everything I read a decade or two back still "counts". But the new writers explained things in a way that seemed simultaneously interesting, new, different, and respectful to what had come before. It wasn't perfect -- at times it was a bit pedantic -- but they did a generally good job. I can't say the same for many other DC titles now. I don't really care to know these characters; it just seems to be a case of "fast food" comics, where I will continue buying whatever title is decent enough at the time. But am I building a sense of familiarity and affection for these versions of these characters? With only a few exceptions (like Swamp Thing and Green Arrow) the answer is No. I don't care about them; it's more like I read them out of habit because the comics aren't bad enough to offend me.
Don't count out DC turning back just yet, again I point everyone to this... Maybe they're trying to revisit the whole origin of the Nu52 after all? Hmm...
DC tried to have it both ways early on leaving how much had changed a fuzzy grey area. But they have leaned into the new universe harder and harder as time has gone on. I don't even think that's the problem. DC did this because these are the stories they want to tell. Nothing ever prevented them from continuing to tell the kinds of stories they were before, but they see a benefit to doing this meaner darker DCU and lean into it harder every month.
The company has taken a radical deliberate "left" turn. Maintaining that appears to be their priority. Not making the best most interesting or entertaining product possible.
The company has no idea what it's doing or where it's going and the bosses ruin (to varrying degrees) anything halfway decent with what are obviously their absurd mandates and politics.
The main problem with DC then and now isn't continuity or costumes. It's quality, commitment and consistency. At least pre new52 their product had history and a degree of heart (and little propaganda). Now it's not just blah, but annoying, predictable and soulless IMO.
What have they fixed or improved? What is genuinely "better" now vs before? The art? The writing/stories? The continuity? The designs? The experience? Any "improvements" have been very few, minor and only temporary.
Batman Incorporated kept me around a while, but once that was done I was gone. I'll come back for Multiversity if it ever surfaces (it was officially announced in Sept 2012!), but under current management I just don't see me returning as a full time reader.
I lived through 90s Marvel Comics once, I don't need to do it a second time.
A few times on CGS recently the guys have cursed DC for making dark/violent/boob-filled comics "for 18-year-old boys". Well... not to defend those projects... but who SHOULD DC be making their comics for, in order to TRY and expand the audience? 40-somethings who want comics to be more innocent and kid-friendly? Usually the "for 18-year-old boys" criticisms have been brought up while bemoaning the lack of Kids WB! animated-style tie-ins, or while cursing DC for choosing a grimmer Justice League over a nostalgic Bwahaha-era redux.
Ideally DC should be able to hit a ton of demographics, and I believe their line was doing that post-Crisis. You had teenagers reading the bulk of the DCU comics; you had older fans who liked Vertigo; and you had younger kids coming in all the time, picking up their first Batman and Superman books. In retrospect that "sweet spot" that DC was in from roughly 1986 to 1996 seems to be a huge exception in the history of comics. Before then comics were pretty much JUST for kids, and after that it seems like comics are almost JUST for aging adults. The Big Two try to bring in new readers but have a much harder time reaching kids and teenagers than they've ever had in the past. If anything, in targeting most of their comics to "18-year-old boys" DC are trying to pick up an audience that's twice as young as the audience they've got.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's just awfully strange that we're in a spot where 40-year-olds would be happier with their comics if they read like something a 12-year-old would read, not like something a 20-year-old would read. And I'm not saying anyone who makes this criticism is wrong. In fact I share a lot of the criticisms of the abundance of grim-n-gritty in the New 52. But I'm just saying it's a strange place we find ourselves in.
65k in estimated sales gives you a top 10 book. Nearly every book regardless of quality loses readers every month (unless there is some kind of gimmick)
The highest selling regular non Batman related DC title is Green Lantern at 45k.
"Acknowledging that there were significant changes made during each period" - the silver age DC universe lasted 30 years, and the post crisis universe lasted roughly 25 years. Does anyone really believe the sales numbers or interest is there to keep the N52 universe alive greater than 10 years? What title outside of Batman could you see hitting issue 100?
With the changes in readership size and habits, the idea of a long term universe may no longer be a realistic idea with the DC.
I'm curious how many of you are similar in age/experience, and if you feel that has something to do with your reaction to the New 52. Just like post-COIE DC ended up re-incorporating pre-Crisis elements that were initially eliminated such as other Kryptonian survivors, multiple Earths, Silver Age events, etc., I definitely think that the New 52 over the course of its lifetime will slowly but surely trickle back in elements that have been lost in the reboot. Hell, Barry Allen came back to the pre-New 52 universe, it took 25 years, but that just shows you that ANYTHING in comics can be changed, reversed, or otherwise undone.