I'm not reading as much Marvel as I used to but what I have been reading I've been enoying a great deal. I'm looking forward to the new Thor. I'm looking forward to seeing how Sam Wilson takes on the burden of filling Cap's shoes. Marvel is making it very hard for me not to give them more of my money each month and I'm a stingy tight wad.
Now, I'll admit that I have not really been happy with Marvel since NOW started, it has basically taken my comics train and threw it off the tracks, but I still held out hope that after a year or so things would get back to normal. However, Marvel has gone the complete opposite way with the Thor and Cap news. Can somebody please tell me what the heck has happened this past year that we have landed at this point. I am fine with any spoilers because at this point I barely care, about the past 2 years, I just NEED TO KNOW. I just hope that someway Marvel can find its way back. Thank you
I'm not sure how to answer the question. That is, if it is actually a question you are seeking an answer for. (It sounds a bit rhetorical.)
What are they doing? They are doing lots of things. The news around Thor and Cap are things that haven't happened yet and, when they do, will probably be a tiny part of the many things that are happening at the moment. For example, I think the current All New X-Men/ Uncanny X-Men books have been the best they have been in years and years. And will likely not be affected a bit by the new Cap and Thor.
(Which is not to say I am worried about avoiding those, myself, just a reminder that Marvel publishes a LOT of books, and most of them actually don't affect each other. Another example is that the new Ms. Marvel got a lot of attention. And a lot of people who were probably never going to read it anyway spoke at length about why they don't like the idea. But as of right now, the character is in one book. Leaving those readers dozens and dozens of books a month to read that are not affected by 'that thing Marvel did'. You know what I mean?)
And even when the Marvel NOW! branding launched a lot of the titles actually continued basically doing what they were doing before NOW! launched, while some others changed. Clearly there is some things you didn't like then. And some things you have heard about in comics that haven't come out yet you don't like the sound of. But without better knowing what you didn't like about NOW!, or what you DO like in general, it is sort of a hard question to answer. You know what I mean.
Marvel needs to find it's way back to what exactly? When is the time you are thinking of, and how is it so different from now? (Or, I guess, from "NOW!")
But to the general question of "What is Marvel doing?", I guess my answers as a reader would be:
A. The same sort of things they have been doing since the 1960s and
B. A good job at it
For myself, I was enjoying a good amount of Marvel titles prior to the NOW! branding. And, it seems, post-NOW! there are even more titles I am enjoying. So, for me, whatever it is that Marvel is doing, I hope they keep doing it.
I always like it when @David_D doesn't counter one of my posts. Even when I know he's wrong & I right ( ;) ), I still feel like I've been slapped around like a bitch bastard.
Now, I'll admit that I have not really been happy with Marvel since NOW started, it has basically taken my comics train and threw it off the tracks, but I still held out hope that after a year or so things would get back to normal. However, Marvel has gone the complete opposite way with the Thor and Cap news. Can somebody please tell me what the heck has happened this past year that we have landed at this point. I am fine with any spoilers because at this point I barely care, about the past 2 years, I just NEED TO KNOW. I just hope that someway Marvel can find its way back. Thank you
I'm not sure how to answer the question. That is, if it is actually a question you are seeking an answer for. (It sounds a bit rhetorical.)
What are they doing? They are doing lots of things. The news around Thor and Cap are things that haven't happened yet and, when they do, will probably be a tiny part of the many things that are happening at the moment. For example, I think the current All New X-Men/ Uncanny X-Men books have been the best they have been in years and years. And will likely not be affected a bit by the new Cap and Thor.
(Which is not to say I am worried about avoiding those, myself, just a reminder that Marvel publishes a LOT of books, and most of them actually don't affect each other. Another example is that the new Ms. Marvel got a lot of attention. And a lot of people who were probably never going to read it anyway spoke at length about why they don't like the idea. But as of right now, the character is in one book. Leaving those readers dozens and dozens of books a month to read that are not affected by 'that thing Marvel did'. You know what I mean?)
And even when the Marvel NOW! branding launched a lot of the titles actually continued basically doing what they were doing before NOW! launched, while some others changed. Clearly there is some things you didn't like then. And some things you have heard about in comics that haven't come out yet you don't like the sound of. But without better knowing what you didn't like about NOW!, or what you DO like in general, it is sort of a hard question to answer. You know what I mean.
Marvel needs to find it's way back to what exactly? When is the time you are thinking of, and how is it so different from now? (Or, I guess, from "NOW!")
But to the general question of "What is Marvel doing?", I guess my answers as a reader would be:
A. The same sort of things they have been doing since the 1960s and
B. A good job at it
For myself, I was enjoying a good amount of Marvel titles prior to the NOW! branding. And, it seems, post-NOW! there are even more titles I am enjoying. So, for me, whatever it is that Marvel is doing, I hope they keep doing it.
I always like it when @David_D doesn't counter one of my posts. Even when I know he's wrong & I right ( ;) ), I still feel like I've been slapped around like a bitch bastard.
M
I'm not sure if I'm following you. But if what you mean is that the the original Cap and Thor will be back, maybe as soon as next summer, then I agree with you. The nature of these things is that a change is made, and then the original is restored. (And, sometimes, in the meantime another character has a memorable bit of history added, or a new character is launched that then sticks around.) So I am with you that things will change back.
But I don't agree with the OP, if I am reading his post right, that this means there is something wrong at Marvel, or Marvel has changed in some drastic way and needs to return to some era when they didn't do things like this. Because they have always done things like this. Or, at least, they have in the 30+ years I have read them.
As mentioned before-- Bucky once was Cap. John Walker once was Cap. Cap once was a wolf. Cap quit and became the Captain; Doc Ock once was Spidey. Spidey once was Captain Universe. And once had six arms. And once was replaced by a clone or something like that (didn't read that one); Eric Masterson once was Thor, Beta Ray Thor, Frog Thor; Rhodey once was Iron Man, a teenage Tony Stark once was Iron Man or some damn thing. Wolverine had no admantium. Storm had no powers. Hulk was different colors. Hulk and Banner were separate, etc.
And yes, all those stories- some good, some bad; some that entertained people, some that turned people off- are now part of Wikipedia entries.
As I said-- Marvel being Marvel. Nothing new. They have been doing this for decades.
As far as I'm concerned Marvel has been knocking it out of the park.
However, as mentioned above, if you don't like what they have been doing with "The Establishment" lately, then there are plenty of other options to choose from.
Plenty of under-the-radar titles that have been excellent; Daredevil, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, New Warriors, All New X-Men, and Nova, to name a few. I also hear that revamped Ms. Marvel and Ghost Rider are fun.
The menu is wide and deep. If you don't like what has been happening then vote with your wallet... and you don't even need to leave Marvel, there are many titles in their line that could use your support. Do yourself a favour and get your hands on "Superior Foes of Spider-man" (someone needs to), before it gets the axe.
Now, I'll admit that I have not really been happy with Marvel since NOW started, it has basically taken my comics train and threw it off the tracks, but I still held out hope that after a year or so things would get back to normal. However, Marvel has gone the complete opposite way with the Thor and Cap news. Can somebody please tell me what the heck has happened this past year that we have landed at this point. I am fine with any spoilers because at this point I barely care, about the past 2 years, I just NEED TO KNOW. I just hope that someway Marvel can find its way back. Thank you
I'm not sure how to answer the question. That is, if it is actually a question you are seeking an answer for. (It sounds a bit rhetorical.)
What are they doing? They are doing lots of things. The news around Thor and Cap are things that haven't happened yet and, when they do, will probably be a tiny part of the many things that are happening at the moment. For example, I think the current All New X-Men/ Uncanny X-Men books have been the best they have been in years and years. And will likely not be affected a bit by the new Cap and Thor.
(Which is not to say I am worried about avoiding those, myself, just a reminder that Marvel publishes a LOT of books, and most of them actually don't affect each other. Another example is that the new Ms. Marvel got a lot of attention. And a lot of people who were probably never going to read it anyway spoke at length about why they don't like the idea. But as of right now, the character is in one book. Leaving those readers dozens and dozens of books a month to read that are not affected by 'that thing Marvel did'. You know what I mean?)
And even when the Marvel NOW! branding launched a lot of the titles actually continued basically doing what they were doing before NOW! launched, while some others changed. Clearly there is some things you didn't like then. And some things you have heard about in comics that haven't come out yet you don't like the sound of. But without better knowing what you didn't like about NOW!, or what you DO like in general, it is sort of a hard question to answer. You know what I mean.
Marvel needs to find it's way back to what exactly? When is the time you are thinking of, and how is it so different from now? (Or, I guess, from "NOW!")
But to the general question of "What is Marvel doing?", I guess my answers as a reader would be:
A. The same sort of things they have been doing since the 1960s and
B. A good job at it
For myself, I was enjoying a good amount of Marvel titles prior to the NOW! branding. And, it seems, post-NOW! there are even more titles I am enjoying. So, for me, whatever it is that Marvel is doing, I hope they keep doing it.
I always like it when @David_D doesn't counter one of my posts. Even when I know he's wrong & I right ( ;) ), I still feel like I've been slapped around like a bitch bastard.
M
I'm not sure if I'm following you. But if what you mean is that the the original Cap and Thor will be back, maybe as soon as next summer, then I agree with you. The nature of these things is that a change is made, and then the original is restored. (And, sometimes, in the meantime another character has a memorable bit of history added, or a new character is launched that then sticks around.) So I am with you that things will change back.
But I don't agree with the OP, if I am reading his post right, that this means there is something wrong at Marvel, or Marvel has changed in some drastic way and needs to return to some era when they didn't do things like this. Because they have always done things like this. Or, at least, they have in the 30+ years I have read them.
As mentioned before-- Bucky once was Cap. John Walker once was Cap. Cap once was a wolf. Cap quit and became the Captain; Doc Ock once was Spidey. Spidey once was Captain Universe. And once had six arms. And once was replaced by a clone or something like that (didn't read that one); Eric Masterson once was Thor, Beta Ray Thor, Frog Thor; Rhodey once was Iron Man, a teenage Tony Stark once was Iron Man or some damn thing. Wolverine had no admantium. Storm had no powers. Hulk was different colors. Hulk and Banner were separate, etc.
And yes, all those stories- some good, some bad; some that entertained people, some that turned people off- are now part of Wikipedia entries.
As I said-- Marvel being Marvel. Nothing new. They have been doing this for decades.
You're waaaay over thinking my joke; I was merely saying that your posted responses always seem like you're schooling someone. I like them (regardless) when its to someone else. When its done to me, I feel slapped around...even when I know you're the one who's wrong!
Its a quasi-comic chop-busting way to say your posts are always well written & informative.
This week, it was three cheers for the red, white, and black, as Marvel-Comics announced that the role of the venerable and very white Captain America will be taken over by the Falcon, an African-American from Harlem. The new version will debut in November.
That news comes on the heels (no pun intended) of the announcement that Marvel will remake its Thor Character into a woman. No, not via the knife. It's a product being able to hold the hammer Mjolnir, which the male version of Thor is no longer worthy of, but the muscular "new" She-Thor can do. Of course, that leaves an easy way back for the male version, who can always ask the black version of Norse God Hiemdall for tips on what to do when someone usurps your traditional role.
Yes, the comics are at it again, turning the tables on long-standing heroes in order to gin up a few collectible issues and a brief bump in sales for a title. It's a time-honored tradition in comics, dating back to the '60s, when heroes gradually became more than noble dudes and the rare dudette who fought for justice. In keeping with the times (and the innovation of Marvel Comics), the heroes of the era began to consider larger issues (except for the old, "what gives them the right to be judge and jury" issue).
The comics have sneaky ways of changing things up. There are alternate universes, Earths in different dimensions, reboots, imaginary stories (a neat trick, since all of the stories are already imaginary), changes in continuity, and other plot devices. All are in service to keeping characters and scenarios fresh and interesting for readers, and particularly for the writers and artists.
Not everyone likes when characters change, and some of the stories where they do are so contorted as to need a separate reader's guide. But the magic of comics is the same as any literature -- you can change the canon at a whim, then reboot it back to where it was when the new storyline runs its course or proves unpopular.
Change Without a Phone Booth
While the recent Marvel character changes have attracted huge media attention, they're far from the only switches that have gone down in comicsdom. Here's some of the more memorable ones:
CLAIRE KENT: In Superboy #78, the younger version of Superman saves an alien woman from a crashing ship, but makes the fatal error of criticizing her driving. Viola, alien Shar-La transforms him into Claire Kent. Superboy goes with the flow and becomes Super-Sister, telling anyone who will listen that she has traded places with her brother. The townies in Smallville, a hick town if ever there was one, amazingly take to the trans-hero and avoid asking any Glen or Glenda questions. In the end, the transformation is revealed as an alien illusion, and Superboy learns not to ridicule women drivers. At least out loud.
SUPERMAN TIMES FOUR: In the early 1990's, DC Comics "killed" Superman, and four new characters emerged to take up the title. One of them was African-American steel worker John Henry Irons. When Superman returned, Irons became known simply as "Steel," and still hangs around the DC universe. Good thing he didn't work as a shoe salesman.
THE REAL NICK FURY: The original Nick Fury was a white Army sergeant in World War II. Post-war, he found a cushy job as the leader of the espionage group SHIELD. But a funny thing happened along the way-- a new comics writer decided that Nick Fury should be black, so he created another universe where such was possible. The black Nick Fury in the comics was modeled on actor Samuel L. Jackson, making for an easy transition when the movie version required the Fury character to appear. Today, while white Nick Fury presumably fights on in another universe, the Fury we all know is Jackson, who has usurped the original role.
GREEN LANTERN SCORECARD: You need a scorecard to keep up with which version of this hero you're dealing with. There's the Golden Age version, the Hal Jordan test pilot, the black Green Lantern (who also became the animated TV version), and the gay Green Lantern (who was the original Golden Age/Earth 2 Green Lantern with a new storyline), and finally the movie version (who once again became white). Can a gender switch to complete the circle be far away?
WHEN IRON MAN CRAVED IRON CITY: Tony Stark may be a "genius/billionaire/playboy/philanthropist," as he stated in The Avengers film, but some of his greatest battles have been with the bottle. After Stark's second relapse into alcohol, his best friend James Rhodes briefly stepped in and took over the Iron Man identity (which was convolutedly hinted at in the film Iron Man II. Thankfully, the custom iron suit fit him perfectly in the inseam, and he later became the Marvel hero War Machine when Stark eased up on the boozing.
A GIANT DIFFERENCE: African-American scientist Bill Foster succeeded fellow lab experiment Henry Pym as Giant Man. Like Pym, he couldn't make up his mind what he wanted to be called, so Giant Man gave way to Goliath, then morphed to Black Goliath, presumably to clear up any confusion between 15-story men of different skin pigments.
-RedTea Independent News for the Right-Minded American
Thor into a woman is dumb. Dumb da dumb dumb... dumb. Why not just promote Sif and give her her own book or something. Everyone knows Thor will be back to being male, most likely by the time Avengers 2 comes out.
@RedTea Hello and welcome aboard. This seems like a cut and paste of a blog entry from your site. Which is fine. Some feedback, for what is is worth, in case you are here to actively discuss and not just do a drive by paste to promote your site--
Is anyone actually calling these new character versions "pioneers"? The title of your thread seems to be setting up a straw man argument. Even some of the mainstream news I have heard and seen cover this have mentioned a lot of these same prior character changes you have. (As well as some you haven't that are even more relevant, like when Maggie Thompson was interviewed by NPR she specifically talked about Frog Thor and the black Captain America in The Truth)
You should fact check some of this. The Nick Fury paragraph alone needs a lot of work. In the current Marvel Universe, the white Nick Fury is front and center in this summer's big event book, while Nick Fury Jr. is only appearing in a relatively minor title (Secret Avengers).
If your main point is that there is a long history to swapping mantles around, I agree. It has been happening for ages. If your follow-through (and honestly, I can't tell what your main thrust is, so I have to guess by tone) is that this is a problem or a bad thing, then I don't think you've proven that. Again because these stories have been around for ages. Some good. Some bad. Some completely forgettable.
As for how these new ones will be? Well, we haven't read them yet.
Not sure if you're purposely trying to troll comic forums or what, but this is pretty much a duplicate post from your ComicVine post from a few hours ago. Apparently you generated little to no discussion there so you've moved onto this forum to reprint your earlier article. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish, but as a libertarian thinker with a right-leaning bent, I can say that to me you appear to be either:
A) a parody meant to mock tea-party republican types B) a troll entertaining yourself by stirring up anger C) out of touch with the current comics industry (white Nick Fury is currently a main player in the latest Marvel "event") D) woefully lacking in self-awareness E) All of the above
Now don't get me wrong. You're entitled to your opinion, even though you may be labelled misogynist or racist, true or not. I'm really just trying to figure out what your point is. You've never posted here or on Comic Vine in the past, so getting involved in comic related dialogue is not a hobby or past time of yours. From what I can easily gather online about your given name "Bruce Haring" you're a writer who has never shown any interest in the comics medium before. What's your angle here? It's like you've shown up at our little CGS hang-out just to shout about how dangerous the paint is... and no one knows who the heck you are or what your point is. Are all supposed to stop reading funny books now? We all know these race-bending, gender switches are gimmicks for short term profits. Noted.
If you're the same Bruce Haring that posted the original article you've merely copied and pasted here, are you trying to promote RedTeaNews.com? You failed to provide a link. IS this what you're doing now that the book festival business model dried up?
Now, I'll admit that I have not really been happy with Marvel since NOW started, it has basically taken my comics train and threw it off the tracks, but I still held out hope that after a year or so things would get back to normal. However, Marvel has gone the complete opposite way with the Thor and Cap news. Can somebody please tell me what the heck has happened this past year that we have landed at this point. I am fine with any spoilers because at this point I barely care, about the past 2 years, I just NEED TO KNOW. I just hope that someway Marvel can find its way back. Thank you
I'm not sure how to answer the question. That is, if it is actually a question you are seeking an answer for. (It sounds a bit rhetorical.)
What are they doing? They are doing lots of things. The news around Thor and Cap are things that haven't happened yet and, when they do, will probably be a tiny part of the many things that are happening at the moment. For example, I think the current All New X-Men/ Uncanny X-Men books have been the best they have been in years and years. And will likely not be affected a bit by the new Cap and Thor.
(Which is not to say I am worried about avoiding those, myself, just a reminder that Marvel publishes a LOT of books, and most of them actually don't affect each other. Another example is that the new Ms. Marvel got a lot of attention. And a lot of people who were probably never going to read it anyway spoke at length about why they don't like the idea. But as of right now, the character is in one book. Leaving those readers dozens and dozens of books a month to read that are not affected by 'that thing Marvel did'. You know what I mean?)
And even when the Marvel NOW! branding launched a lot of the titles actually continued basically doing what they were doing before NOW! launched, while some others changed. Clearly there is some things you didn't like then. And some things you have heard about in comics that haven't come out yet you don't like the sound of. But without better knowing what you didn't like about NOW!, or what you DO like in general, it is sort of a hard question to answer. You know what I mean.
Marvel needs to find it's way back to what exactly? When is the time you are thinking of, and how is it so different from now? (Or, I guess, from "NOW!")
But to the general question of "What is Marvel doing?", I guess my answers as a reader would be:
A. The same sort of things they have been doing since the 1960s and
B. A good job at it
For myself, I was enjoying a good amount of Marvel titles prior to the NOW! branding. And, it seems, post-NOW! there are even more titles I am enjoying. So, for me, whatever it is that Marvel is doing, I hope they keep doing it.
I always like it when @David_D doesn't counter one of my posts. Even when I know he's wrong & I right ( ;) ), I still feel like I've been slapped around like a bitch bastard.
M
I'm not sure if I'm following you. But if what you mean is that the the original Cap and Thor will be back, maybe as soon as next summer, then I agree with you. The nature of these things is that a change is made, and then the original is restored. (And, sometimes, in the meantime another character has a memorable bit of history added, or a new character is launched that then sticks around.) So I am with you that things will change back.
But I don't agree with the OP, if I am reading his post right, that this means there is something wrong at Marvel, or Marvel has changed in some drastic way and needs to return to some era when they didn't do things like this. Because they have always done things like this. Or, at least, they have in the 30+ years I have read them.
As mentioned before-- Bucky once was Cap. John Walker once was Cap. Cap once was a wolf. Cap quit and became the Captain; Doc Ock once was Spidey. Spidey once was Captain Universe. And once had six arms. And once was replaced by a clone or something like that (didn't read that one); Eric Masterson once was Thor, Beta Ray Thor, Frog Thor; Rhodey once was Iron Man, a teenage Tony Stark once was Iron Man or some damn thing. Wolverine had no admantium. Storm had no powers. Hulk was different colors. Hulk and Banner were separate, etc.
And yes, all those stories- some good, some bad; some that entertained people, some that turned people off- are now part of Wikipedia entries.
As I said-- Marvel being Marvel. Nothing new. They have been doing this for decades.
You're waaaay over thinking my joke; I was merely saying that your posted responses always seem like you're schooling someone. I like them (regardless) when its to someone else. When its done to me, I feel slapped around...even when I know you're the one who's wrong!
Its a quasi-comic chop-busting way to say your posts are always well written & informative.
M
Ahh. Thanks. Got it. Mostly. There is something about being wrong that makes it all staticky ;)
What is Marvel doing? Attempting to get people into comic shops, attempting to help their retail partners, attempting to get mainstream press notice for their work and telling their creators to try new things.
I love Superior Spider-Man, FrankenCastle, the Return of Bucky and so on and so on.
If it didn't work, they'd do something else. Their job is to get people to buy comic books.
The thing I'm enjoying about Marvel right now is the impression of a larger story connecting everything. Ever since Age of Ultron time/space has been screwed up. Obviously what's going on in the X-Books but also Spider-Man(2099 stuff), Avengers(incursions, shattered time gem, AIM pulling things out of other dimensions, Starbrand, Kang and the Apocalypse Twins, etc), Hunger/Cataclysm, Angela, etc...
It feels like it's a slow boil leading to something big..
Would it be possible to close this thread? Unless @RedTea has something more to offer to it? Because I feel like we are having a spirited discussion on this subject in 2 other threads and this one here smacks of being poorly thought out spam. In his looong diatribe he doesn't even discuss anything that we haven't already mentioned elsewhere, which indicates he hasn't bothered becoming part of the discussion and has no interest in it.
Amalgamated! As there is a lot of duplicate talk going on I figured this could all be under one heading rather than more and more people dropping in to have their own thread about it.
Would it be possible to close this thread? Unless @RedTea has something more to offer to it? Because I feel like we are having a spirited discussion on this subject in 2 other threads and this one here smacks of being poorly thought out spam. In his looong diatribe he doesn't even discuss anything that we haven't already mentioned elsewhere, which indicates he hasn't bothered becoming part of the discussion and has no interest in it.
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I disagree. I think Marvel has had the cake-and-eat-it-too of doing soft reboots and rebrands all the time, but because it is never all one, big reboot, they never get the sort of all at once big pushback from the old fans that DC got. It seems that Marvel does well with just doing lots of #1s and change-ups spread out over the year. I don't think they would have enough to gain from a total reboot vs. what they might lose. DC was in a different position when they rebooted.
True. Though DC's sales are still up since the N52 started. I'm sure bean counters at Marvel have noticed. A mandate from "up stairs" perhaps?
N52 sales are still up, and again I don't blame DC for what it did at the time it did it. But a lot of that momentum for DC has not lasted (even if they have not, yet, fallen below where they were at). And I don't think it is a coincidence that the big, top-down, storyline-interrupting, across the line reboot, as well as the mandates that followed, like the theme months, have seemed to wreck havoc on their talent relations, as well as a lot of the goodwill with their established fan base.
Marvel is currently doing well. They don't need to take the risk. Especially when they are free to reboot or change whatever they want to without throwing the whole thing out at once. As they do all the time, often without as much fanfare.
EDIT- For example, over the last two volumes (in a span of all of three years or something), The Punisher has been almost entirely rebooted to something more movie friendly. He got younger. Suddenly he is a veteran of a war in a desert rather than a jungle. The current volume has him in LA, with some cops as friends, and a dog. All seems pretty movie-ready. But they didn't have to reboot the whole universe to get the kind of Punisher they now want. Nor did they even make a big, 'Brand New Day' thing of changing him (maybe they learned their lesson from that?) Instead, they just shifted a few details with each volume and didn't call a lot of attention to it. Did longtime Punisher fans notice? I'm sure some did. But there was never one big moment for all of us to react to the change at the same time. And other readers jumped onto a Punisher #1 never having read it much before and didn't notice at all.
Again, cake-and-eat-it-too.
I could be wrong, but from the outside perspective as a reader, I feel like part of Marvel's success in what they create, and how well they keep top talent around is that- while they have an "upstairs", of course, their is less heavy handed than DC's.
(Again, though, that is only a guess. Can't really know without working at both. But that is what it looks like.)
Best thing about the title of that comic is that "I Am Curious(Yellow)" was the tile of a popular foreign film that was pretty much a classy way to see nudity and sex....so, what WAS Lois doing?
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I disagree. I think Marvel has had the cake-and-eat-it-too of doing soft reboots and rebrands all the time, but because it is never all one, big reboot, they never get the sort of all at once big pushback from the old fans that DC got. It seems that Marvel does well with just doing lots of #1s and change-ups spread out over the year. I don't think they would have enough to gain from a total reboot vs. what they might lose. DC was in a different position when they rebooted.
I feel like every single time Marvel does something new the first reaction is always "a reboot must be around the corner". It's gotten even worse post New 52, where people think because DC had a little bit of success doing something they've done before that Marvel is going to follow suit... But Marvel mastered the soft reboot long ago. They get away with rewriting history all the time, almost always without explanation. Market share-wise Marvel still rules the roost, so I don't think they worry terribly about what DC does. And I can guarantee that no one "upstairs" is telling creative at Marvel to make their comic counterparts as unrecognizable as possible from the all important movie versions.
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I disagree. I think Marvel has had the cake-and-eat-it-too of doing soft reboots and rebrands all the time, but because it is never all one, big reboot, they never get the sort of all at once big pushback from the old fans that DC got. It seems that Marvel does well with just doing lots of #1s and change-ups spread out over the year. I don't think they would have enough to gain from a total reboot vs. what they might lose. DC was in a different position when they rebooted.
I feel like every single time Marvel does something new the first reaction is always "a reboot must be around the corner". It's gotten even worse post New 52, where people think because DC had a little bit of success doing something they've done before that Marvel is going to follow suit... But Marvel mastered the soft reboot long ago. They get away with rewriting history all the time, almost always without explanation. Market share-wise Marvel still rules the roost, so I don't think they worry terribly about what DC does. And I can guarantee that no one "upstairs" is telling creative at Marvel to make their comic counterparts as unrecognizable as possible from the all important movie versions.
I wasn't suggesting the rebooted universe would be completely different from the movie one. DC kept their most successful properties more or less unchanged. A merging of the Ultimate U into the 616 would be big news, it would generate tons of buzz, and yet could be done very selectively to ensure only characters without established movie counterparts are changed.
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I disagree. I think Marvel has had the cake-and-eat-it-too of doing soft reboots and rebrands all the time, but because it is never all one, big reboot, they never get the sort of all at once big pushback from the old fans that DC got. It seems that Marvel does well with just doing lots of #1s and change-ups spread out over the year. I don't think they would have enough to gain from a total reboot vs. what they might lose. DC was in a different position when they rebooted.
I feel like every single time Marvel does something new the first reaction is always "a reboot must be around the corner". It's gotten even worse post New 52, where people think because DC had a little bit of success doing something they've done before that Marvel is going to follow suit... But Marvel mastered the soft reboot long ago. They get away with rewriting history all the time, almost always without explanation. Market share-wise Marvel still rules the roost, so I don't think they worry terribly about what DC does. And I can guarantee that no one "upstairs" is telling creative at Marvel to make their comic counterparts as unrecognizable as possible from the all important movie versions.
I wasn't suggesting the rebooted universe would be completely different from the movie one. DC kept their most successful properties more or less unchanged. A merging of the Ultimate U into the 616 would be big news, it would generate tons of buzz, and yet could be done very selectively to ensure only characters without established movie counterparts are changed.
I don't know. I'm not sure that anything involving the Ultimate Universe generates much buzz these days. When Miles Morales crossed into the 616 to meet Peter Parker (which might have been the first time there was a character crossing from one side to the other? Though I might be forgetting something) I don't recall people caring that much. Galactus went to the UU and nearly ate it, and I don't know that people outside those reading the Ultimate books notices or cared. And even that event seems to have just led to another creative reshuffle and Ultimate Marvel Now! rebranding.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Ultimate line (they are one of my favorite things to keep up with via Marvel Unlimited), but I doubt the Ultimate line as a thing has enough juice these days to get buzz going.
I just don't think Marvel would have enough to gain from a reboot, or even an integration of their universes. Sure, hypothetically everything could sell better. But at the moment, it is far from broke, so why do something drastic to "fix" it, you know what I mean? Especially when they give themselves the option of changing things whenever they want.
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I disagree. I think Marvel has had the cake-and-eat-it-too of doing soft reboots and rebrands all the time, but because it is never all one, big reboot, they never get the sort of all at once big pushback from the old fans that DC got. It seems that Marvel does well with just doing lots of #1s and change-ups spread out over the year. I don't think they would have enough to gain from a total reboot vs. what they might lose. DC was in a different position when they rebooted.
I feel like every single time Marvel does something new the first reaction is always "a reboot must be around the corner". It's gotten even worse post New 52, where people think because DC had a little bit of success doing something they've done before that Marvel is going to follow suit... But Marvel mastered the soft reboot long ago. They get away with rewriting history all the time, almost always without explanation. Market share-wise Marvel still rules the roost, so I don't think they worry terribly about what DC does. And I can guarantee that no one "upstairs" is telling creative at Marvel to make their comic counterparts as unrecognizable as possible from the all important movie versions.
I don’t know if we can call what Marvel does as “soft reboots”, as they never ignore their history. They may pull the “:everything you know is wrong” and they don’t obsessively footnote everything like they did in the 70’s and 80’s, but they haven’t done any “this didn’t happen”. The closest they have done is the “Secret Wars II didn’t happen the way you think” in The Illuminati.
They have done some stylistic changes, and characters have changed in how they deal with things, but having reconnected with some people I used to work with 5 or 6 years ago, people change…so when Hawkeye doesn’t much mention he used to turn into a giant and wear a halter top, it’s like the sorority girl you knew in college refusing to admit she used to go to class in a tube top.
I agree actually. I'm predicting the final incursion will be the Ultimate Universe's Earth..somehow things will be reconciled without destroying a world and we'll get a rebooted Marvel Universe..fixing all the space/time problems.
I disagree. I think Marvel has had the cake-and-eat-it-too of doing soft reboots and rebrands all the time, but because it is never all one, big reboot, they never get the sort of all at once big pushback from the old fans that DC got. It seems that Marvel does well with just doing lots of #1s and change-ups spread out over the year. I don't think they would have enough to gain from a total reboot vs. what they might lose. DC was in a different position when they rebooted.
I feel like every single time Marvel does something new the first reaction is always "a reboot must be around the corner". It's gotten even worse post New 52, where people think because DC had a little bit of success doing something they've done before that Marvel is going to follow suit... But Marvel mastered the soft reboot long ago. They get away with rewriting history all the time, almost always without explanation. Market share-wise Marvel still rules the roost, so I don't think they worry terribly about what DC does. And I can guarantee that no one "upstairs" is telling creative at Marvel to make their comic counterparts as unrecognizable as possible from the all important movie versions.
I don’t know if we can call what Marvel does as “soft reboots”, as they never ignore their history. They may pull the “:everything you know is wrong” and they don’t obsessively footnote everything like they did in the 70’s and 80’s, but they haven’t done any “this didn’t happen”. The closest they have done is the “Secret Wars II didn’t happen the way you think” in The Illuminati.
They have done some stylistic changes, and characters have changed in how they deal with things, but having reconnected with some people I used to work with 5 or 6 years ago, people change…so when Hawkeye doesn’t much mention he used to turn into a giant and wear a halter top, it’s like the sorority girl you knew in college refusing to admit she used to go to class in a tube top.
I agree that is mostly how they do it. And I think simply not referencing what you wish to ignore is an elegant solution.
I would argue that some of the ways they have detached their characters from prior, real-world historical events feel more like a soft reboot, though. Frank Castle seems to have not fought in the desert rather than Vietnam, for example. That sort of de-aging, and change of character history (as well as where the character intersects with the history of the real world) feels more like a soft reboot to me, not just a style change. Ditto the Fantastic Four origin. I don't track them closely, but I would guess when their origin story is now references, they leave out the part where they were trying to beat the Soviets to the moon.
And it doesn't bother me-- I can see why they do it, and I would prefer it over an unnecessary line-wide reboot. But I would say soft reboots is sometimes what it is.
Comments
I'm not reading as much Marvel as I used to but what I have been reading I've been enoying a great deal. I'm looking forward to the new Thor. I'm looking forward to seeing how Sam Wilson takes on the burden of filling Cap's shoes. Marvel is making it very hard for me not to give them more of my money each month and I'm a stingy tight wad.
M
But I don't agree with the OP, if I am reading his post right, that this means there is something wrong at Marvel, or Marvel has changed in some drastic way and needs to return to some era when they didn't do things like this. Because they have always done things like this. Or, at least, they have in the 30+ years I have read them.
As mentioned before-- Bucky once was Cap. John Walker once was Cap. Cap once was a wolf. Cap quit and became the Captain; Doc Ock once was Spidey. Spidey once was Captain Universe. And once had six arms. And once was replaced by a clone or something like that (didn't read that one); Eric Masterson once was Thor, Beta Ray Thor, Frog Thor; Rhodey once was Iron Man, a teenage Tony Stark once was Iron Man or some damn thing. Wolverine had no admantium. Storm had no powers. Hulk was different colors. Hulk and Banner were separate, etc.
And yes, all those stories- some good, some bad; some that entertained people, some that turned people off- are now part of Wikipedia entries.
As I said-- Marvel being Marvel. Nothing new. They have been doing this for decades.
However, as mentioned above, if you don't like what they have been doing with "The Establishment" lately, then there are plenty of other options to choose from.
Plenty of under-the-radar titles that have been excellent; Daredevil, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, New Warriors, All New X-Men, and Nova, to name a few. I also hear that revamped Ms. Marvel and Ghost Rider are fun.
The menu is wide and deep. If you don't like what has been happening then vote with your wallet... and you don't even need to leave Marvel, there are many titles in their line that could use your support. Do yourself a favour and get your hands on "Superior Foes of Spider-man" (someone needs to), before it gets the axe.
Its a quasi-comic chop-busting way to say your posts are always well written & informative.
M
That news comes on the heels (no pun intended) of the announcement that Marvel will remake its Thor Character into a woman. No, not via the knife. It's a product being able to hold the hammer Mjolnir, which the male version of Thor is no longer worthy of, but the muscular "new" She-Thor can do. Of course, that leaves an easy way back for the male version, who can always ask the black version of Norse God Hiemdall for tips on what to do when someone usurps your traditional role.
Yes, the comics are at it again, turning the tables on long-standing heroes in order to gin up a few collectible issues and a brief bump in sales for a title. It's a time-honored tradition in comics, dating back to the '60s, when heroes gradually became more than noble dudes and the rare dudette who fought for justice. In keeping with the times (and the innovation of Marvel Comics), the heroes of the era began to consider larger issues (except for the old, "what gives them the right to be judge and jury" issue).
The comics have sneaky ways of changing things up. There are alternate universes, Earths in different dimensions, reboots, imaginary stories (a neat trick, since all of the stories are already imaginary), changes in continuity, and other plot devices. All are in service to keeping characters and scenarios fresh and interesting for readers, and particularly for the writers and artists.
Not everyone likes when characters change, and some of the stories where they do are so contorted as to need a separate reader's guide. But the magic of comics is the same as any literature -- you can change the canon at a whim, then reboot it back to where it was when the new storyline runs its course or proves unpopular.
Change Without a Phone Booth
While the recent Marvel character changes have attracted huge media attention, they're far from the only switches that have gone down in comicsdom. Here's some of the more memorable ones:
CLAIRE KENT: In Superboy #78, the younger version of Superman saves an alien woman from a crashing ship, but makes the fatal error of criticizing her driving. Viola, alien Shar-La transforms him into Claire Kent. Superboy goes with the flow and becomes Super-Sister, telling anyone who will listen that she has traded places with her brother. The townies in Smallville, a hick town if ever there was one, amazingly take to the trans-hero and avoid asking any Glen or Glenda questions. In the end, the transformation is revealed as an alien illusion, and Superboy learns not to ridicule women drivers. At least out loud.
SUPERMAN TIMES FOUR: In the early 1990's, DC Comics "killed" Superman, and four new characters emerged to take up the title. One of them was African-American steel worker John Henry Irons. When Superman returned, Irons became known simply as "Steel," and still hangs around the DC universe. Good thing he didn't work as a shoe salesman.
THE REAL NICK FURY: The original Nick Fury was a white Army sergeant in World War II. Post-war, he found a cushy job as the leader of the espionage group SHIELD. But a funny thing happened along the way-- a new comics writer decided that Nick Fury should be black, so he created another universe where such was possible. The black Nick Fury in the comics was modeled on actor Samuel L. Jackson, making for an easy transition when the movie version required the Fury character to appear. Today, while white Nick Fury presumably fights on in another universe, the Fury we all know is Jackson, who has usurped the original role.
GREEN LANTERN SCORECARD: You need a scorecard to keep up with which version of this hero you're dealing with.
There's the Golden Age version, the Hal Jordan test pilot, the black Green Lantern (who also became the animated TV version), and the gay Green Lantern (who was the original Golden Age/Earth 2 Green Lantern with a new storyline), and finally the movie version (who once again became white). Can a gender switch to complete the circle be far away?
WHEN IRON MAN CRAVED IRON CITY: Tony Stark may be a "genius/billionaire/playboy/philanthropist," as he stated in The Avengers film, but some of his greatest battles have been with the bottle. After Stark's second relapse into alcohol, his best friend James Rhodes briefly stepped in and took over the Iron Man identity (which was convolutedly hinted at in the film Iron Man II. Thankfully, the custom iron suit fit him perfectly in the inseam, and he later became the Marvel hero War Machine when Stark eased up on the boozing.
A GIANT DIFFERENCE: African-American scientist Bill Foster succeeded fellow lab experiment Henry Pym as Giant Man. Like Pym, he couldn't make up his mind what he wanted to be called, so Giant Man gave way to Goliath, then morphed to Black Goliath, presumably to clear up any confusion between 15-story men of different skin pigments.
-RedTea
Independent News for the Right-Minded American
redteanews
Is anyone actually calling these new character versions "pioneers"? The title of your thread seems to be setting up a straw man argument. Even some of the mainstream news I have heard and seen cover this have mentioned a lot of these same prior character changes you have. (As well as some you haven't that are even more relevant, like when Maggie Thompson was interviewed by NPR she specifically talked about Frog Thor and the black Captain America in The Truth)
You should fact check some of this. The Nick Fury paragraph alone needs a lot of work. In the current Marvel Universe, the white Nick Fury is front and center in this summer's big event book, while Nick Fury Jr. is only appearing in a relatively minor title (Secret Avengers).
If your main point is that there is a long history to swapping mantles around, I agree. It has been happening for ages. If your follow-through (and honestly, I can't tell what your main thrust is, so I have to guess by tone) is that this is a problem or a bad thing, then I don't think you've proven that. Again because these stories have been around for ages. Some good. Some bad. Some completely forgettable.
As for how these new ones will be? Well, we haven't read them yet.
A) a parody meant to mock tea-party republican types
B) a troll entertaining yourself by stirring up anger
C) out of touch with the current comics industry (white Nick Fury is currently a main player in the latest Marvel "event")
D) woefully lacking in self-awareness
E) All of the above
Now don't get me wrong. You're entitled to your opinion, even though you may be labelled misogynist or racist, true or not. I'm really just trying to figure out what your point is. You've never posted here or on Comic Vine in the past, so getting involved in comic related dialogue is not a hobby or past time of yours. From what I can easily gather online about your given name "Bruce Haring" you're a writer who has never shown any interest in the comics medium before. What's your angle here? It's like you've shown up at our little CGS hang-out just to shout about how dangerous the paint is... and no one knows who the heck you are or what your point is. Are all supposed to stop reading funny books now? We all know these race-bending, gender switches are gimmicks for short term profits. Noted.
If you're the same Bruce Haring that posted the original article you've merely copied and pasted here, are you trying to promote RedTeaNews.com? You failed to provide a link. IS this what you're doing now that the book festival business model dried up?
M
I love Superior Spider-Man, FrankenCastle, the Return of Bucky and so on and so on.
If it didn't work, they'd do something else. Their job is to get people to buy comic books.
He missed the black Superman although I always remember that as being Muhammad Ali
And of course he forgot my all time favorite...
It feels like it's a slow boil leading to something big..
Marvel is currently doing well. They don't need to take the risk. Especially when they are free to reboot or change whatever they want to without throwing the whole thing out at once. As they do all the time, often without as much fanfare.
EDIT- For example, over the last two volumes (in a span of all of three years or something), The Punisher has been almost entirely rebooted to something more movie friendly. He got younger. Suddenly he is a veteran of a war in a desert rather than a jungle. The current volume has him in LA, with some cops as friends, and a dog. All seems pretty movie-ready. But they didn't have to reboot the whole universe to get the kind of Punisher they now want. Nor did they even make a big, 'Brand New Day' thing of changing him (maybe they learned their lesson from that?) Instead, they just shifted a few details with each volume and didn't call a lot of attention to it. Did longtime Punisher fans notice? I'm sure some did. But there was never one big moment for all of us to react to the change at the same time. And other readers jumped onto a Punisher #1 never having read it much before and didn't notice at all.
Again, cake-and-eat-it-too.
I could be wrong, but from the outside perspective as a reader, I feel like part of Marvel's success in what they create, and how well they keep top talent around is that- while they have an "upstairs", of course, their is less heavy handed than DC's.
(Again, though, that is only a guess. Can't really know without working at both. But that is what it looks like.)
I wasn't suggesting the rebooted universe would be completely different from the movie one. DC kept their most successful properties more or less unchanged. A merging of the Ultimate U into the 616 would be big news, it would generate tons of buzz, and yet could be done very selectively to ensure only characters without established movie counterparts are changed.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Ultimate line (they are one of my favorite things to keep up with via Marvel Unlimited), but I doubt the Ultimate line as a thing has enough juice these days to get buzz going.
I just don't think Marvel would have enough to gain from a reboot, or even an integration of their universes. Sure, hypothetically everything could sell better. But at the moment, it is far from broke, so why do something drastic to "fix" it, you know what I mean? Especially when they give themselves the option of changing things whenever they want.
They have done some stylistic changes, and characters have changed in how they deal with things, but having reconnected with some people I used to work with 5 or 6 years ago, people change…so when Hawkeye doesn’t much mention he used to turn into a giant and wear a halter top, it’s like the sorority girl you knew in college refusing to admit she used to go to class in a tube top.
I would argue that some of the ways they have detached their characters from prior, real-world historical events feel more like a soft reboot, though. Frank Castle seems to have not fought in the desert rather than Vietnam, for example. That sort of de-aging, and change of character history (as well as where the character intersects with the history of the real world) feels more like a soft reboot to me, not just a style change. Ditto the Fantastic Four origin. I don't track them closely, but I would guess when their origin story is now references, they leave out the part where they were trying to beat the Soviets to the moon.
And it doesn't bother me-- I can see why they do it, and I would prefer it over an unnecessary line-wide reboot. But I would say soft reboots is sometimes what it is.