Episode 1560 Talkback - Spotlight on Daredevil in the 1980s and 1990s
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With the Frank Miller years behind us, we Geeks continue our underworld journey through Daredevil's history with a visit to the purgatory period of the late 1980s and the 1990s. We give due recognition to prodigious scripting runs by Denny O'Neil, Ann Nocenti, D.G. Chichester, Karl Kesel, and Kevin Smith (with just a few more stories by Miller sprinkled in to sweeten the deal); Daredevil's first encounters with Mephisto, Blackheart, and Typhoid Mary; the return of Elektra, and the deaths of several more of DD's love interests; the infamous red-and-gray armored costume; and every grim vicissitude in between, from issue #192 of Daredevil Volume 1 to the first arc of the Marvel Knights series. A lot of it ain't pretty, but in the life of the Man Without Fear, what is? (2:37:01)
Listen and/or watch here.
Listen and/or watch here.
Comments
"Who?"
Classic.
I do recall some good art going on during this period, though, from folks like David Mazzuchelli, Lee Weeks and John Romita Jr. If only I could have endured the writing...
FANTASTIC stuff so far, as expected. What a strange turbulent period for the character, and it lends itself well to great discussion.
I have a soft spot for the post-Miller Denny O'Neil issues, at least through issue 200 or so. If I remember right, Klaus Janson continued on art, but his style changed due to Miller's absence. We continued to get stories featuring Bullseye and ninjas; the trip to Japan was fun, and you had the introduction of Lady Deathstrike (pre-op) and a classic Wolverine guest-spot (definitely pick that issue up if you see it for 50 cents!!). All in all, it wasn't a great era, but it wasn't horrible either and it was definitely interesting to see what the creators could do in Miller's wake.
I might chime back in later once I've listened to more of the episode, but for now I'll say that the few Nocenti issues I've read always impressed me more due to the evolution of JRJR's art at the time... and I remember enjoying the Kesel/Nord run very much when it was coming out, but I tried reading it again a few years ago and it did not hold up for me at all. Maybe it deserves another try.
The spotlights are truly awesome and I especially love the blow by blow, issue by issue commentary by Mssrs. Eberle & Murd, these have been so much fun, even for characters I've not been a hardcore fan of.
But DD is my guy and has been since the late 70s- I read original Miller issues with my older brother and started picking up the title as close to monthly as possible during the O'Neil era. I am about the same age as Chris E.- I was very young at this point. This was me scrounging up loose change and allowance money, and hitting several spinner racks every month as a kid and hoping to find DD at the grocery store- I only found an LCS much, much later in the mire of Chichester. So I assembled the vast majority of this whole era, off spinner racks, as a kid, missing a few here and there.
Enough background- I just finished the episode this morning so there's a few things I wanted to add and some key issues I think that are worth recommending..
- Foggy learns Matt is DD when DeMatteis cleans up the whole armored costume/Fall From Grace/Jack Batlin mess. Around ish 348 if memory serves.
- Chichester was so cringeworthy and I'm glad you didn't pull any punches there. However, there is one one-shot story that he did that you skipped and I think is a very strong issue. It is #304, "34 hours". Sort of a day in the life story of DD, helping various people around NYC and one of those that attempts to sum up the meaning of Matt's heroism as Daredevil. I haven't read it in some time but I have revisited it long after it initially came out and it does hold up very well. It is FAR AND AWAY the one singularly excellent issue worth picking up from that run. Last Rites being the other thing Chichester did that was solid. #380 (the last issue) was not bad, not great.
- You guys briefly mentioned #219 which was the Miller/Buscema one shot (predating Born Again) but didn't really get into the content of it- This is probably my favorite one shot story ever and it is very unique- Matt is in the story but does not appear as DD and is never mentioned by either name. He comes across a highly corrupt New Jersey town and is referred to only as an Eastwood-esque "stranger" who says little to anyone, but gets involved in the dirty dealings and ensures that those who have corrupted this town pay for what they've been doing. There's a lot of the character's & town's history alluded to in it- it's a very rich world built by Miller in one issue- it is HIGHLY worth anyone's time and oft-overlooked because it fell before Born Again (which IMO deserves all the praise you gave it and then some). Plus Big John art, come on, he's one of the all-time greats and it's quite a collaboration with Miller.
- Another wierd note on #225.. There are a very strange couple of panels at the end where after the DD/Vulture conflict is resolved- we see a sort of winged godlike guy speaking to some unseen entity about something that is coming in the future. It's not ever followed up on. #226 was co-written by Miller & O'Neil and then Born Again happened.
- There is some stuff written online- I think another comic book legends revealed post, or elsewhere. Apparently Miller had more to tell after Born Again and was originally intending to stay on the book, but that fell apart. I can't recall the article but I think scripts may exist. Hence the wierd one shot inventory stories in the mid 230s after Born Again and before Nocenti takes over. Maybe you can find it for the Born Again spotlight that I'm eagerly awaiting.
- I'm missing the last issue of Joe Kelly's run. I remember Foggy's sister Candace being in some danger, oh, the drama.. Please no spoilers (tongue firmly in cheek). Kesel/Kelly was great and I had drifted away from the title, they brought me back more regularly when I heard some good word of mouth after I pretty much was down to an issue or two a year during Chichester & DeMatteis. So I am excited to re-read that stuff and hunt down the ending of Kelly's run. Prompted by you guys of course.
I think Nocenti's high points are well worth your time. Those being the original introduction to Typhoid Mary for sure, and there's some other good issues early in the run. I thought the end of her run when Matt returns to NYC and reclaims his good name is also solid. The Nocenti "wandering DD" era had some moments but lacked consistency and I always kept wanting to see the dangling thread of Karen and the fallout from his dalliance with Typhoid Mary come to some resolution during those issues. Like you said- she was trying new things and I think with some interesting- although not always great- results.
Anyway, great great job, I am long overdue in thanking you for all of these spotlights especially these Daredevil ones. And Mr. Eberle, can I suggest a spotlight on Conan somewhere down the road (I'm also a very big fan of the barbarian although I know he hasn't often been a topic on CGS or here on the forums).
Thanks again- truly- it has been so fun listening even if I don't often have time to post.
I agree with Chris that Man Without Fear is probably the best work of JR’s career, but I liked pretty much everything he did during his run on the regular series too. As much as I like Janson's inking over JR, I think what Al Williamson did over him as the regular inker on the series was brilliant.
As for Mephisto’s beastly appearance, I have to disagree with @Adam_Murdough. I loved it. My take on it was that the classic devil-in-supervillain-spandex-and-cape look was just the face he put on when dealing with humans, but DD’s senses saw him (and allowed the reader to see him) for what he was—a monstrous demon lord of Hell.
I stayed with the book after Chichester took over, but left shortly after Lee Weeks moved on. “Last Rites” was a decent enough story, but it's worth reading for Lee’s visual storytelling alone. There are some truly great moments in the story thanks to Lee.
http://www.manwithoutfear.com/interviews/ddINTERVIEW.shtml?id=Simonson
According to this interview with Walt Simonson, there was a planned Miller/Simonson 2 part story that would have run after Born Again that never happened. I believe the "next writer" that is referred to here is Steve Englehart, although I remember reading somewhere else that Englehart may have had some creative differences regarding his plans with another party at Marvel- I can't remember those details and others could perhaps better confirm that account.
Then Nocenti became the next regular writer starting at like 238- she had done 236 but there were the other aforementioned fill-in stories after Born Again. Englehart did write 237 but left the book immediately.
http://www.manwithoutfear.com/daredevil-interviews/Englehart
Interesting comments from him on what his run would have been like had he done it, and also included is his side of the story as to why he did not take over the book.
Other than that, the episode was great.
The first comic I remember purchasing was Daredevil #272, right smack in the middle of the Nocenti run, featuring Shotgun and Number Nine. I was intrigued and stayed with the book until issue #300 when I dropped it and went "full mutant." During those years, I collected numerous back issues, mostly Nocenti-written stuff, but there may have been others as well. My comic shop didn't have anything too old in the bins, so it was somewhat limiting.
I have nostalgic blinders for the Nocenti run, so I will always think of it as masterful. As an adult, I admit there were some downers in there, but at the same time, there was some great stuff. If nothing else, Nocenti did a good job of keeping the gritty feel of the Miller work and kept DD dark. I've always liked him best as a dark character.
One comment I would like to make is on the Inhumans involvement in the title in the 270's. These issues come on the heels of Nocenti's Inhumans graphic novel that told the tale of Medusa and Black Bolt's child. Medusa clashes with the genetics council and is forced to flee Attilan to give birth in secret because of the fear of what child's powers might be (ie, Black Bolt voice). It's a solid book and I recommend it highly.
There was still more of the Inhuamns story to be told after the graphic novel, so I can only assume that Nocenti thought it a good idea to finish that tale within the pages of Daredevil. It does feel a little disjointed, and probably would have been better told in an Inhumans book, but since that wasn't an option, this was likely the next best thing. I'm assuming that was how it played out, but that's just guesswork on my part.
Being a fan of the Inhumans, I'm glad the story was told. They were lost from most books during the 1980's and Nocenti was their only real champion.
Widow's Kiss: Daredevil (1964) 365-380, -1; Dare devil /Dea dpool Annual '97
Fall From Grace: Daredevil (1964) 319-332, Annual 10
Secondly, I will also defend the armored DD costume introduced in the 90s. It made a lot more sense than red spandex for someone with low-level powers that constantly got his a** kicked. Remember joining the Bowen Statue Collector's club so I could get the Limited Edition Armoured Version of the DD bust: