First, I really liked Civil War. Aside from my nostalgia for Secret Wars, it's the top of my Marvel events list. Having stated that, they were able to capitalize on my interest of the original series & bamboozled me into getting this Secret Wars; even some of the tie-ins. That will not happen with Civil War II.
Secondly, and more importantly, I call utter bull shit on these delays. I'd be embarrassed if I was Marvel (or DC) when events are not released on time. This is a headlining event. If there's no way the writer submit the first issue with having nearly the whole thing completed. If artists are struggling to keep up, then they should be pulled from their regular titles to focus on the event. Hell, make these things shorter events. The last batch I've read were all longer then they should've been anyway.
Delays are unacceptable and a solid reason for not buying events as they are released. F-'em and "delay" your buying to wait for the trade!
M
I agree with you about delays. In this instance, Marvel stopped regular series and based an entire relaunch around this event. There will be issue #3's and 4's of new series released the same week as issue #9 of SW.
I do not know what the reason for the delays are. From press releases, it sounds like the art is running late. Outside of making sure more stuff was done before it was solicited, I am not sure what Marvel could have done to prevent this. If it is a writing delay, this is Hickman's story and he is out the door. If it is art delay, they are stuck if they want a story that looks consistent all the way thru.
I think I would be more understanding if when this happens, the company was a little more contrite and honest with the customer. Just say "we are sorry. The art or writing is late. This is how we are going to try to make sure it does not happen again." Instead we get something like "this is going to be the greatest comic ever published and it will be worth the wait."
This also shows one disadvantage of preordering. When this happens after you have 2 or 3 issues already on order it can make voting with the wallet tough. Unless of course you just follow the wise advice to "F-'em and "delay" your buying to wait for the trade!"
"The story got bigger, the revelations more shocking, the scale of the action grander than any of us anticipated," Marvel Editor-in-Chief Axel Alonso said of the delay.
The speculating conspiracy side of my brain thinks this is about FOX and Marvel coming to terms and Marvel's original Fantastic Four ending in Secret Wars was changed to fit those terms... Whatever the reasons, it appears there's definitely been some interference from Marvel editorial, because I believe Hickman has largely been done with this story for a while.
Fun speculation aside...
What's another week? Some comic readers get bent out of shape over delays. As if they believe they're entitled to never be inconvenienced.
And for those of us who used to buy comics before the internet, you never actually knew when a comic had become available until you saw it on the Marvel Bullpen pages. Readers had no information regarding the printing and distribution schedules. And comic subscriptions were a crap shoot. Now a days, there's so much transparency in the process, we know it all. There's so little point in getting upset if something's late. "Back in my day" they actually had comics that only came out every other month! Perish the thought.
Right now, I envy those who decided to "wait for the trade" on this event, because I think it will be a fantastic one hour read for any Marvel comic lover. I can wait for the delays, I'm pretty far behind in my reading as it is, but from what I've read of SW so far, it will be worth the wait.
Not entitled. Frankly, if the only reason I care when it comes out is so I can unload the floppies & recuperate some of the cash I put out for it. Unfortunately, I can't get the time back.
Having stated that; I'm expected to complete assignments by my deadlines. I'm betting other people working are the same way. If I hire a contractor & 3 weeks in he hasn't finished the design phase because he has 5 other projects he's also designing, why should I pay him for the services thus far? That's not entitlement, that's business.
Would it be "entitlement" if Netflix/Marvel Entertainment releases 10 of the 13 episodes of DD S2 on the release date with a statement the final 3 episodes are being delayed because of cast scheduling conflicts?
If I hire a contractor & 3 weeks in he hasn't finished the design phase because he has 5 other projects he's also designing, why should I pay him for the services thus far? That's not entitlement, that's business.
Delays happen.
Sometimes you hire a contractor to remodel your home, and the engineer determines that they can't remove this wall as planned without installing a heavy steel beam, or they begin pulling back sheet rock and discover mold, or they're remodeling the bathroom and have to dig up the plumbing underneath the home unexpectedly, or the electrician discovers you have knob and tube wiring which by law has to be replaced, or the wife decides mid-construction, that she wants new fixtures and an island installed in the kitchen.... and so on.
I don't know of anyone who stops watching TV shows because an episode was delayed. I've never heard of anyone not reading a book because it's release date got delayed. I've never heard of anyone who refuses to see a movie because it was pushed back. Is this accepted practice for comicbook readers? Or do we just like to bitch about stuff that inconveniences us?
As I said, I believe the story has long been written, and Esad Ribic is only working on Secret Wars, as far as I can tell, so unless he is uncharacteristically late in his art, then I blame editorial. Does Marvel deserve harsh criticism for these delays? Yes, but not necessarily from people who are just flipping books. I want the story and the art work and the finished product to be as good as it can be. I can wait.
It wouldn't bother you if something isn't finished at the agreed upon deadline? Sure delays happens. If I know something will take 1 hour, I give an ETA of 3hrs. It's a buffer zone. If the books were completed long ago & editors what adjustments, it shouldn't take weeks to make tweaks. They aren't scrapping the work done to make those adjustments. If 5% of the last books need tweaks, then it shouldn't delay everything weeks each issue. Especially if it's the only job.
And you'd be the first person to bitch if Netflix only released 10 of 13 episodes of DD season 2. You wouldn't not or stop watching the series because the last 3 episodes are taking an extra month from the initial establish deadline.
Same with a movie; you'd still go to see the movie delayed weeks, but be the first person to bring up reshoots & revisions.
Whether I thought the story sucked or was amazing or keeping the books or flipping them, if something is given an established deadline, I would presume that's with Murphy's Law is factored.
The exception would be if nothing is started; scripts, pages, etc.
Again, that's not entitlement, that's a reasonable person's expections. If not, release dates would have "about/approximately on this date"...especially when the books that were to follow the story's conclusion have already been released.
And you'd be the first person to bitch if Netflix only released 10 of 13 episodes of DD season 2. You wouldn't not or stop watching the series because the last 3 episodes are taking an extra month from the initial establish deadline.
Same with a movie; you'd still go to see the movie delayed weeks, but be the first person to bring up reshoots & revisions.
You're mistaken. If they only released half of Jessica Jones on Netflix at this point, I wouldn't bitch at all. I'm not only behind in my reading, but my viewing as well. I'm only on episode 4 of JJ. Took me over month and a half to finish DD. If they delayed it a month or two, I wouldn't care. My Netflix queue runneth over with unwatched content.
Perhaps you and I see this differently because you're caught up with SW. I'm not. And even if I were I wouldn't be bitching about it because I have other interests. I get that people want what they want when they want it in a society like ours. We're living in an impatient, impulsive, instant gratification world with drive-thru windows, microwaves, 1-hour shipping, 30 minute delivery, DVRs, streaming media, the internet on our watches, etc. I just try not to get sucked into that immediate gratification syndrome. It's a by-product of our culture and probably related to the rise in attention deficit disorder.
Hope you won't quit comics over these delays @Matt, but you're certainly entitled to spend your money and your time any way you like.
SW is at least on delay #3. You can overlook one delay but 3?
A delay on a random issue of a title is ok. Things happen. SW is not a regular title. This was set up to be the flag ship event of the year and maybe the decade. If SW was the first event this happened too, it would also get a pass. This however has happened with Marvel before and in the case of SW, if you are going to surround almost your entire publication line around something, you need to make sure things get delivered on time
SW is at least on delay #3. You can overlook one delay but 3?
A delay on a random issue of a title is ok. Things happen. SW is not a regular title. This was set up to be the flag ship event of the year and maybe the decade. If SW was the first event this happened too, it would also get a pass. This however has happened with Marvel before and in the case of SW, if you are going to surround almost your entire publication line around something, you need to make sure things get delivered on time
And you'd be the first person to bitch if Netflix only released 10 of 13 episodes of DD season 2. You wouldn't not or stop watching the series because the last 3 episodes are taking an extra month from the initial establish deadline.
Same with a movie; you'd still go to see the movie delayed weeks, but be the first person to bring up reshoots & revisions.
You're mistaken. If they only released half of Jessica Jones on Netflix at this point, I wouldn't bitch at all. I'm not only behind in my reading, but my viewing as well. I'm only on episode 4 of JJ. Took me over month and a half to finish DD. If they delayed it a month or two, I wouldn't care. My Netflix queue runneth over with unwatched content.
Perhaps you and I see this differently because you're caught up with SW. I'm not. And even if I were I wouldn't be bitching about it because I have other interests. I get that people want what they want when they want it in a society like ours. We're living in an impatient, impulsive, instant gratification world with drive-thru windows, microwaves, 1-hour shipping, 30 minute delivery, DVRs, streaming media, the internet on our watches, etc. I just try not to get sucked into that immediate gratification syndrome. It's a by-product of our culture and probably related to the rise in attention deficit disorder.
Hope you won't quit comics over these delays @Matt, but you're certainly entitled to spend your money and your time any way you like.
In a scenario where you're not back logged on anything; completely current. You scheduled things to completely clear your schedule for the day DD season 2 is to be released...and then find out the whole series isn't being released because of delays, you'd be cool with your complete binge watching schedule is now derailed, it wouldn't bother you? I don't believe that.
Maybe if you didn't have a burr under your saddle about Marvel's "treatment" of Fox held characters, I might believe you.
And I don't care about the immediate gratification. I get once a month shipping from DCBS; I'm always reading/getting SW later the the release date. It's not about immediate gratification, it's about being responsible & accountable. I don't take on cases I cannot handle. I don't make deadlines I cannot keep. That's what I'm calling bullshit on for these delays.
Much like with tv shows, the lack of stimuli from the product is what would have me quit comics.
SW is at least on delay #3. You can overlook one delay but 3?
A delay on a random issue of a title is ok. Things happen. SW is not a regular title. This was set up to be the flag ship event of the year and maybe the decade. If SW was the first event this happened too, it would also get a pass. This however has happened with Marvel before and in the case of SW, if you are going to surround almost your entire publication line around something, you need to make sure things get delivered on time
This is exactly right. I can imagine possible speed bumps aren't factored into release date. Hell, I do that when my wife asks my ETA to come home from work.
In a scenario where you're not back logged on anything; completely current. You scheduled things to completely clear your schedule for the day DD season 2 is to be released...and then find out the whole series isn't being released because of delays, you'd be cool with your complete binge watching schedule is now derailed, it wouldn't bother you?
In that scenario, yes, I would be bothered. That is not the case for me at this time.
In a scenario where you're not back logged on anything; completely current. You scheduled things to completely clear your schedule for the day DD season 2 is to be released...and then find out the whole series isn't being released because of delays, you'd be cool with your complete binge watching schedule is now derailed, it wouldn't bother you?
In that scenario, yes, I would be bothered. That is not the case for me at this time.
So you do, however, acknowledge there are times where you expect services in a timely manner & get irritated when there is a delay. In this particular situation, it doesn't effect me (I sigh each time I begin to read the latest issue anyway), I just get irritated with the excuses.
I'd get a 5 minute lecture at work if I tried something like that. Any reasoning I produced would be immediately countered with a solution I should've used.
Of course, but you and I both know that not only are we NOT going to get any excuse from Marvel, much less the truth as to why it's being repeatedly delayed. We also haven't seen the last of the delays for books and events.
You gonna stop buying Marvel over it? Will they care? Will it change anything other than eliminate your frustration?
Again, don't get me started on Hawkeye. That thread proved to me that you can bitch about books being late all you want, but no one really seemed to care. I guess they whipped that out of me there... on Hawkeye.
Hawkeye was one of the great mismanagments of modern comics. A well recieved book by fans and critics that was killed because it could not be finished on time. It was like they just decided that they no longer wanted to make money.
Hawkeye was one of the great mismanagments of modern comics. A well recieved book by fans and critics that was killed because it could not be finished on time. It was like they just decided that they no longer wanted to make money.
Was it really ended because it was chronically late? I hadn't read that anywhere but if that's how it all went down, that would be very unfortunate. I always thought that Fraction did intend to end the story with #22 as he and Aja/Wu told it, albeit without the momentum-killing delays.
I really enjoyed that book and I just stuck it out. It did detract from the experience of following the book in issue while it came out, but I still have all the issues and upon rereading the whole run, it was a really great piece of work.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Hawkeye was totally worth the wait. A fantastic read from start to finish, and I'll take waiting months between issues over artistic compromises in order to get the book out on a set schedule every day of the week if it results in a book that good.
And to bring it back to the topic of the thread, has anyone read the new Lemire/Perez Hawkeye relaunch yet? I think I'll pull it out of my pile to read next.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Hawkeye was totally worth the wait. A fantastic read from start to finish, and I'll take waiting months between issues over artistic compromises in order to get the book out on a set schedule every day of the week if it results in a book that good.
And for the record SW is very good and I don't mind another week long delay. Apparently @nweathington doesn't either. He doesn't concern himself with release schedules and the like - as long as the end product is good.
Come to the other side... we have a pile of comics to read...
Now, don't get me started on how Marvel retroactively jacked up the price of those final Hawkeye issues after soliciting them at $2.99...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Hawkeye was totally worth the wait. A fantastic read from start to finish, and I'll take waiting months between issues over artistic compromises in order to get the book out on a set schedule every day of the week if it results in a book that good.
And for the record SW is very good and I don't mind another week long delay. Apparently @nweathington doesn't either. He doesn't concern himself with release schedules and the like - as long as the end product is good.
Come to the other side... we have a pile of comics to read...
Now, don't get me started on how Marvel retroactively jacked up the price of those final Hawkeye issues after soliciting them at $2.99...
You're right. The next time I blow a deadline because I've got too many cases to handle & revisions to make to my report, and get my ass shredded, I'll tell both my supervisor & our client to stop feeling entitled. My work should speak for itself, so be damn that's it's too late to matter.
When your pull list is 3-4 books monthly, it's hard to fall behind.
In fairness, if we want to try to compare our own jobs to, say, making art for a Marvel Comic, I think you have to first stop and parse out whether you are a salaried employee, and this have to account for what you do or don't produce within the 40 or 50 hours or whatever it is they expect you to work for your salary. Or, are you- in keeping with the history of how comics tend to work- paid a piecework page rate for the art you make, and then, later, royalties if it sells and continues to sell well.
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
In fairness, if we want to try to compare our own jobs to, say, making art for a Marvel Comic, I think you have to first stop and parse out whether you are a salaried employee, and this have to account for what you do or don't produce within the 40 or 50 hours or whatever it is they expect you to work for your salary. Or, are you- in keeping with the history of how comics tend to work- paid a piecework page rate for the art you make, and then, later, royalties if it sells and continues to sell well.
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
I disagree. Nearly every profession has some type of deadlines. If I hire you as an actor to start practicing on the 10th with the show set to open the 31st, I expect you there ready to start on the 1st date & completely prepared & present the 2nd date. That's part of why I hired you. I'm under the impression you're a professional & accountable actor. If I'm wrong, don't look for follow up work.
Anyone know how long SW was in the making? If the creative team planned this a year prior, is it really that unreasonable to expect 60-75% completed by the time issue 1 is released? Sure there'll be delays & tweaks, but you're not scrapping that 75%. You're tweaking it & starting fresh the final 25%.
Maybe it's just my mindset of planning 2-3 steps ahead & creating timelines for others to unknowingly work within that finds delays like this poorly executed. It's a lot easier to have fewer glaring mishaps when you properly prepare.
All-New Hawkeye #1 was released in March 2015, even though the earlier Hawkeye series was still unfinished, having slipped past its original Oct. 2014 release date and numerous updates. So they began a new volume while the last volume hadn't even wrapped up yet. Did it hurt Marvel? Did they fine or fire Aja and Fraction? Nope. They stand behind their artists.
"Once you've read the event's truly cataclysmic conclusion -- and Esad's artwork is beyond anything you've seen so far -- you'll see for yourself, and you'll understand why Jonathan and Esad needed the extra time and space, and why we gave it to them. It has all been building to this." Axel Alonso, Marvel Editor-in-Chief
Deadlines get missed. It happens. I believe Marvel would gain a lot of fan support by offering some explanations, but they probably aren't going to. They're giving us marketing friendly quotes like any company man or woman would do and standing behind their artists. These delays began 6 months ago, so you would think fans would probably be used to it by now.
All-New Hawkeye #1 was released in March 2015, even though the earlier Hawkeye series was still unfinished, having slipped past its original Oct. 2014 release date and numerous updates. So they began a new volume while the last volume hadn't even wrapped up yet. Did it hurt Marvel? Did they fine or fire Aja and Fraction? Nope. They stand behind their artists.
"Once you've read the event's truly cataclysmic conclusion -- and Esad's artwork is beyond anything you've seen so far -- you'll see for yourself, and you'll understand why Jonathan and Esad needed the extra time and space, and why we gave it to them. It has all been building to this." Axel Alonso, Marvel Editor-in-Chief
Deadlines get missed. It happens. I believe Marvel would gain a lot of fan support by offering some explanations, but they probably aren't going to. They're giving us marketing friendly quotes like any company man or woman would do and standing behind their artists. These delays began 6 months ago, so you would think fans would probably be used to it by now.
Missed deadlines "happen" because there are no repercussions. If I tell my daughter not to do something & the only punishment is a stern talking to, how long before that rule holds no value. Being "fat, drunk, & stupid" is no excuse for failure anymore then "they won't lose any readers."
Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one & they always stink. They're used to justify a lack of planning & execution.
Exactly, the delays started 6 months ago. It's ridiculous initially. It's an embarrassment now. We're not talking a series (which shouldn't happen anyway), we're talking about an event that's to bridge to the next thing. Would you blame anyone for dropping the final issues in lieu of just getting to that next direction? Sounds like lost sales. If I was Marvel & had 1 delay 6 months ago, I'm sure as hell making sure there aren't any other delays.
Then again, I might just live in a world where accountability, planning, & timetables mean something.
In fairness, if we want to try to compare our own jobs to, say, making art for a Marvel Comic, I think you have to first stop and parse out whether you are a salaried employee, and this have to account for what you do or don't produce within the 40 or 50 hours or whatever it is they expect you to work for your salary. Or, are you- in keeping with the history of how comics tend to work- paid a piecework page rate for the art you make, and then, later, royalties if it sells and continues to sell well.
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
I disagree. Nearly every profession has some type of deadlines. If I hire you as an actor to start practicing on the 10th with the show set to open the 31st, I expect you there ready to start on the 1st date & completely prepared & present the 2nd date. That's part of why I hired you. I'm under the impression you're a professional & accountable actor. If I'm wrong, don't look for follow up work.
Anyone know how long SW was in the making? If the creative team planned this a year prior, is it really that unreasonable to expect 60-75% completed by the time issue 1 is released? Sure there'll be delays & tweaks, but you're not scrapping that 75%. You're tweaking it & starting fresh the final 25%.
Maybe it's just my mindset of planning 2-3 steps ahead & creating timelines for others to unknowingly work within that finds delays like this poorly executed. It's a lot easier to have fewer glaring mishaps when you properly prepare.
M
And, to be clear, I am not saying this should not color whether or not Marvel chooses to work with Ribic in the future on an event book like this. I am not saying there are not potential consequences to whether or not you are the contractor they turn to in the future. If keeping to their schedule is a key concern for them. Which... maybe it isn't.
And that is why I think the actor comparison doesn't really work. Because a huge part of an actor's job is about showing up, and the deadlines, traditionally, are harder deadlines: a shooting schedule, an opening night. If an actor doesn't show up, then there is a tangible and immediate cost to the production: All those other people that are paid to wait around. There is a reason that 'time is money' or 'we're burning daylight, people!' are cliche bits of dialogue in stories about movie making. And that is why penalties for not showing up, or completing work on a project, are often built into a contract with a star, and why, when you are just talking about workaday actors, payment is by the day, and one's own union (in the case of union actors) can be called upon to punish you for too much tardiness, or not showing up when called to work.
Because, basically, actors are paid for their time. For showing up, and contributing being a part of the thing that other people are making around them.
That is still pretty different from a contractor who is, in Ribic's case, given a script, and then expected to deliver back penciled and inked pages. Again, I am not saying there is no cost to getting behind and having to wait on that delivery... but I think it is harder to quantify that cost. Unlike everyone waiting for Mr. Brando to arrive on set so that shooting can finally start, there aren't a hundred or more people on a timeclock waiting for those pages to come in.
And, given that the readership, as far as I can tell, have historically not voted with their wallets to punish delayed comics for their delays, I think Marvel might have a lot less incentive to replace Ribic then, again, many of our bosses would have to replace us in our work.
2 of the top 10 best sellers in Amazon's Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels, as of this moment, are Civil War (#3) and Watchmen (#10).
You know what no one really cares about anymore when it comes to those? How punctual they were when the single issues first got published. Sure, some of us plugged-in comics superfans may remember, but that is, at best, a footnote at this point.
I think the reality of the market is that this content, if it succeeds, has a long tail. And while I get that it can put an unfair burden on retailers, and can strain the good will of the weekly-Wednesday periodical fans, I think Marvel gets that they can get away with not always being on time. If the content is in enough demand, the readership will still be there when it is finally delivered. Civil War 7 was one of the highest selling issues of the decade. More copies of that were ordered than of #6. And, given the long delays by then, I am pretty sure retailers would have had the chance to adjust orders downward if they were being told by lots of their customers, 'Take that off my pull and tell Marvel to go f**k themselves!' But, in the majority it would seem, people didn't. They were still there wanting to see how the story finishes.
Again, I am not saying this is ideal, and I am sensitive to the position this can put retailers in, especially. But it is a reminder of why, when it comes to demand for this content, time is not necessarily money.
All-New Hawkeye #1 was released in March 2015, even though the earlier Hawkeye series was still unfinished, having slipped past its original Oct. 2014 release date and numerous updates. So they began a new volume while the last volume hadn't even wrapped up yet. Did it hurt Marvel? Did they fine or fire Aja and Fraction? Nope. They stand behind their artists.
"Once you've read the event's truly cataclysmic conclusion -- and Esad's artwork is beyond anything you've seen so far -- you'll see for yourself, and you'll understand why Jonathan and Esad needed the extra time and space, and why we gave it to them. It has all been building to this." Axel Alonso, Marvel Editor-in-Chief
Deadlines get missed. It happens. I believe Marvel would gain a lot of fan support by offering some explanations, but they probably aren't going to. They're giving us marketing friendly quotes like any company man or woman would do and standing behind their artists. These delays began 6 months ago, so you would think fans would probably be used to it by now.
Missed deadlines "happen" because there are no repercussions. If I tell my daughter not to do something & the only punishment is a stern talking to, how long before that rule holds no value. Being "fat, drunk, & stupid" is no excuse for failure anymore then "they won't lose any readers."
Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one & they always stink. They're used to justify a lack of planning & execution.
Exactly, the delays started 6 months ago. It's ridiculous initially. It's an embarrassment now. We're not talking a series (which shouldn't happen anyway), we're talking about an event that's to bridge to the next thing. Would you blame anyone for dropping the final issues in lieu of just getting to that next direction? Sounds like lost sales. If I was Marvel & had 1 delay 6 months ago, I'm sure as hell making sure there aren't any other delays.
Then again, I might just live in a world where accountability, planning, & timetables mean something.
M Man, I love it when people just assume the creative process runs like a factory, and all you have to do is turn on a switch and decide to work for everything to run like clockwork.
No repercussions? Okay, rarely do top artists get fired and blackballed these days (though it does happen on occasion), but the repercussion for a late artist is less money. Artists don't get paid for their time. They get paid for the number of pages they produce. It doesn't matter whether they spend one month producing a book or three months, they'll get paid the same amount either way. If the artist takes three extra weeks to draw a book that’s three weeks he could have spent drawing his next book and making more money. I don't know about you, but three weeks of no pay would put a big dent in my budget.
But, as David pointed out, event books like this have a good chance for earning decent royalties. Ribic may be well rewarded down the road for putting in that extra three weeks at the board if the book becomes a perennial seller.
Comics are no longer a disposable medium. The industry now plays for the long game—multiple collections and digital editions means that every comic is potential revenue for the lifetime of the company. And as a result, delays don't matter nearly as much as they used to, and deadlines are secondary to the final product.
In fairness, if we want to try to compare our own jobs to, say, making art for a Marvel Comic, I think you have to first stop and parse out whether you are a salaried employee, and this have to account for what you do or don't produce within the 40 or 50 hours or whatever it is they expect you to work for your salary. Or, are you- in keeping with the history of how comics tend to work- paid a piecework page rate for the art you make, and then, later, royalties if it sells and continues to sell well.
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
I disagree. Nearly every profession has some type of deadlines. If I hire you as an actor to start practicing on the 10th with the show set to open the 31st, I expect you there ready to start on the 1st date & completely prepared & present the 2nd date. That's part of why I hired you. I'm under the impression you're a professional & accountable actor. If I'm wrong, don't look for follow up work.
Anyone know how long SW was in the making? If the creative team planned this a year prior, is it really that unreasonable to expect 60-75% completed by the time issue 1 is released? Sure there'll be delays & tweaks, but you're not scrapping that 75%. You're tweaking it & starting fresh the final 25%.
Maybe it's just my mindset of planning 2-3 steps ahead & creating timelines for others to unknowingly work within that finds delays like this poorly executed. It's a lot easier to have fewer glaring mishaps when you properly prepare.
M
And, to be clear, I am not saying this should not color whether or not Marvel chooses to work with Ribic in the future on an event book like this. I am not saying there are not potential consequences to whether or not you are the contractor they turn to in the future. If keeping to their schedule is a key concern for them. Which... maybe it isn't.
And that is why I think the actor comparison doesn't really work. Because a huge part of an actor's job is about showing up, and the deadlines, traditionally, are harder deadlines: a shooting schedule, an opening night. If an actor doesn't show up, then there is a tangible and immediate cost to the production: All those other people that are paid to wait around. There is a reason that 'time is money' or 'we're burning daylight, people!' are cliche bits of dialogue in stories about movie making. And that is why penalties for not showing up, or completing work on a project, are often built into a contract with a star, and why, when you are just talking about workaday actors, payment is by the day, and one's own union (in the case of union actors) can be called upon to punish you for too much tardiness, or not showing up when called to work.
Because, basically, actors are paid for their time. For showing up, and contributing being a part of the thing that other people are making around them.
That is still pretty different from a contractor who is, in Ribic's case, given a script, and then expected to deliver back penciled and inked pages. Again, I am not saying there is no cost to getting behind and having to wait on that delivery... but I think it is harder to quantify that cost. Unlike everyone waiting for Mr. Brando to arrive on set so that shooting can finally start, there aren't a hundred or more people on a timeclock waiting for those pages to come in.
And, given that the readership, as far as I can tell, have historically not voted with their wallets to punish delayed comics for their delays, I think Marvel might have a lot less incentive to replace Ribic then, again, many of our bosses would have to replace us in our work.
2 of the top 10 best sellers in Amazon's Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels, as of this moment, are Civil War (#3) and Watchmen (#10).
You know what no one really cares about anymore when it comes to those? How punctual they were when the single issues first got published. Sure, some of us plugged-in comics superfans may remember, but that is, at best, a footnote at this point.
I think the reality of the market is that this content, if it succeeds, has a long tail. And while I get that it can put an unfair burden on retailers, and can strain the good will of the weekly-Wednesday periodical fans, I think Marvel gets that they can get away with not always being on time. If the content is in enough demand, the readership will still be there when it is finally delivered. Civil War 7 was one of the highest selling issues of the decade. More copies of that were ordered than of #6. And, given the long delays by then, I am pretty sure retailers would have had the chance to adjust orders downward if they were being told by lots of their customers, 'Take that off my pull and tell Marvel to go f**k themselves!' But, in the majority it would seem, people didn't. They were still there wanting to see how the story finishes.
Again, I am not saying this is idea, and I am sensitive to the position this can put retailers in, especially. But it is a reminder of why, when it comes to demand for this content, time is not necessarily money.
Still not certain I buy that. If the scripts are late, it delays the artists. If the illustration is delayed, it ripples down through to each person handling the product. Is it a staff of 100 people waiting on 1 actor at the same time? No, but I would deduce each person working on the book has his/her own deadline to maintain.
Even if the artist only has this project, that doesn't mean the other creators do as well.
Will it cost Marvel (or DC) financially to have constant delays? Nope. Collectors are trained to keep coming back; delays be damned. WE let these things happen & provide no resistant. I'm certainly in the minority of people that would skip the issues produced by Kevin Smith & Frank Miller to wait for the trade. I know both creators are notorious for delays. Their names sell, so Marvel & DC puts up with it.
Just like with my daughter; if I don't make her respect the rule, it becomes nothing more then catchphrase.
In fairness, if we want to try to compare our own jobs to, say, making art for a Marvel Comic, I think you have to first stop and parse out whether you are a salaried employee, and this have to account for what you do or don't produce within the 40 or 50 hours or whatever it is they expect you to work for your salary. Or, are you- in keeping with the history of how comics tend to work- paid a piecework page rate for the art you make, and then, later, royalties if it sells and continues to sell well.
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
I disagree. Nearly every profession has some type of deadlines. If I hire you as an actor to start practicing on the 10th with the show set to open the 31st, I expect you there ready to start on the 1st date & completely prepared & present the 2nd date. That's part of why I hired you. I'm under the impression you're a professional & accountable actor. If I'm wrong, don't look for follow up work.
Anyone know how long SW was in the making? If the creative team planned this a year prior, is it really that unreasonable to expect 60-75% completed by the time issue 1 is released? Sure there'll be delays & tweaks, but you're not scrapping that 75%. You're tweaking it & starting fresh the final 25%.
Maybe it's just my mindset of planning 2-3 steps ahead & creating timelines for others to unknowingly work within that finds delays like this poorly executed. It's a lot easier to have fewer glaring mishaps when you properly prepare.
M
And, to be clear, I am not saying this should not color whether or not Marvel chooses to work with Ribic in the future on an event book like this. I am not saying there are not potential consequences to whether or not you are the contractor they turn to in the future. If keeping to their schedule is a key concern for them. Which... maybe it isn't.
And that is why I think the actor comparison doesn't really work. Because a huge part of an actor's job is about showing up, and the deadlines, traditionally, are harder deadlines: a shooting schedule, an opening night. If an actor doesn't show up, then there is a tangible and immediate cost to the production: All those other people that are paid to wait around. There is a reason that 'time is money' or 'we're burning daylight, people!' are cliche bits of dialogue in stories about movie making. And that is why penalties for not showing up, or completing work on a project, are often built into a contract with a star, and why, when you are just talking about workaday actors, payment is by the day, and one's own union (in the case of union actors) can be called upon to punish you for too much tardiness, or not showing up when called to work.
Because, basically, actors are paid for their time. For showing up, and contributing being a part of the thing that other people are making around them.
That is still pretty different from a contractor who is, in Ribic's case, given a script, and then expected to deliver back penciled and inked pages. Again, I am not saying there is no cost to getting behind and having to wait on that delivery... but I think it is harder to quantify that cost. Unlike everyone waiting for Mr. Brando to arrive on set so that shooting can finally start, there aren't a hundred or more people on a timeclock waiting for those pages to come in.
And, given that the readership, as far as I can tell, have historically not voted with their wallets to punish delayed comics for their delays, I think Marvel might have a lot less incentive to replace Ribic then, again, many of our bosses would have to replace us in our work.
2 of the top 10 best sellers in Amazon's Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels, as of this moment, are Civil War (#3) and Watchmen (#10).
You know what no one really cares about anymore when it comes to those? How punctual they were when the single issues first got published. Sure, some of us plugged-in comics superfans may remember, but that is, at best, a footnote at this point.
I think the reality of the market is that this content, if it succeeds, has a long tail. And while I get that it can put an unfair burden on retailers, and can strain the good will of the weekly-Wednesday periodical fans, I think Marvel gets that they can get away with not always being on time. If the content is in enough demand, the readership will still be there when it is finally delivered. Civil War 7 was one of the highest selling issues of the decade. More copies of that were ordered than of #6. And, given the long delays by then, I am pretty sure retailers would have had the chance to adjust orders downward if they were being told by lots of their customers, 'Take that off my pull and tell Marvel to go f**k themselves!' But, in the majority it would seem, people didn't. They were still there wanting to see how the story finishes.
Again, I am not saying this is idea, and I am sensitive to the position this can put retailers in, especially. But it is a reminder of why, when it comes to demand for this content, time is not necessarily money.
Still not certain I buy that. If the scripts are late, it delays the artists. If the illustration is delayed, it ripples down through to each person handling the product. Is it a staff of 100 people waiting on 1 actor at the same time? No, but I would deduce each person working on the book has his/her own deadline to maintain.
Even if the artist only has this project, that doesn't mean the other creators do as well.
Will it cost Marvel (or DC) financially to have constant delays? Nope. Collectors are trained to keep coming back; delays be damned. WE let these things happen & provide no resistant. I'm certainly in the minority of people that would skip the issues produced by Kevin Smith & Frank Miller to wait for the trade. I know both creators are notorious for delays. Their names sell, so Marvel & DC puts up with it.
Just like with my daughter; if I don't make her respect the rule, it becomes nothing more then catchphrase.
M
If they didn't sell you the single issues, but later sold you the trade, then the house still wins. The fact that this is content you now have several different formats and time windows to choose from is just a further reminder that they are not in a periodical business anymore. They are in a content business.
In fairness, if we want to try to compare our own jobs to, say, making art for a Marvel Comic, I think you have to first stop and parse out whether you are a salaried employee, and this have to account for what you do or don't produce within the 40 or 50 hours or whatever it is they expect you to work for your salary. Or, are you- in keeping with the history of how comics tend to work- paid a piecework page rate for the art you make, and then, later, royalties if it sells and continues to sell well.
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
I disagree. Nearly every profession has some type of deadlines. If I hire you as an actor to start practicing on the 10th with the show set to open the 31st, I expect you there ready to start on the 1st date & completely prepared & present the 2nd date. That's part of why I hired you. I'm under the impression you're a professional & accountable actor. If I'm wrong, don't look for follow up work.
Anyone know how long SW was in the making? If the creative team planned this a year prior, is it really that unreasonable to expect 60-75% completed by the time issue 1 is released? Sure there'll be delays & tweaks, but you're not scrapping that 75%. You're tweaking it & starting fresh the final 25%.
Maybe it's just my mindset of planning 2-3 steps ahead & creating timelines for others to unknowingly work within that finds delays like this poorly executed. It's a lot easier to have fewer glaring mishaps when you properly prepare.
M
And, to be clear, I am not saying this should not color whether or not Marvel chooses to work with Ribic in the future on an event book like this. I am not saying there are not potential consequences to whether or not you are the contractor they turn to in the future. If keeping to their schedule is a key concern for them. Which... maybe it isn't.
And that is why I think the actor comparison doesn't really work. Because a huge part of an actor's job is about showing up, and the deadlines, traditionally, are harder deadlines: a shooting schedule, an opening night. If an actor doesn't show up, then there is a tangible and immediate cost to the production: All those other people that are paid to wait around. There is a reason that 'time is money' or 'we're burning daylight, people!' are cliche bits of dialogue in stories about movie making. And that is why penalties for not showing up, or completing work on a project, are often built into a contract with a star, and why, when you are just talking about workaday actors, payment is by the day, and one's own union (in the case of union actors) can be called upon to punish you for too much tardiness, or not showing up when called to work.
Because, basically, actors are paid for their time. For showing up, and contributing being a part of the thing that other people are making around them.
That is still pretty different from a contractor who is, in Ribic's case, given a script, and then expected to deliver back penciled and inked pages. Again, I am not saying there is no cost to getting behind and having to wait on that delivery... but I think it is harder to quantify that cost. Unlike everyone waiting for Mr. Brando to arrive on set so that shooting can finally start, there aren't a hundred or more people on a timeclock waiting for those pages to come in.
And, given that the readership, as far as I can tell, have historically not voted with their wallets to punish delayed comics for their delays, I think Marvel might have a lot less incentive to replace Ribic then, again, many of our bosses would have to replace us in our work.
2 of the top 10 best sellers in Amazon's Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels, as of this moment, are Civil War (#3) and Watchmen (#10).
You know what no one really cares about anymore when it comes to those? How punctual they were when the single issues first got published. Sure, some of us plugged-in comics superfans may remember, but that is, at best, a footnote at this point.
I think the reality of the market is that this content, if it succeeds, has a long tail. And while I get that it can put an unfair burden on retailers, and can strain the good will of the weekly-Wednesday periodical fans, I think Marvel gets that they can get away with not always being on time. If the content is in enough demand, the readership will still be there when it is finally delivered. Civil War 7 was one of the highest selling issues of the decade. More copies of that were ordered than of #6. And, given the long delays by then, I am pretty sure retailers would have had the chance to adjust orders downward if they were being told by lots of their customers, 'Take that off my pull and tell Marvel to go f**k themselves!' But, in the majority it would seem, people didn't. They were still there wanting to see how the story finishes.
Again, I am not saying this is idea, and I am sensitive to the position this can put retailers in, especially. But it is a reminder of why, when it comes to demand for this content, time is not necessarily money.
Still not certain I buy that. If the scripts are late, it delays the artists. If the illustration is delayed, it ripples down through to each person handling the product. Is it a staff of 100 people waiting on 1 actor at the same time? No, but I would deduce each person working on the book has his/her own deadline to maintain.
Even if the artist only has this project, that doesn't mean the other creators do as well.
Will it cost Marvel (or DC) financially to have constant delays? Nope. Collectors are trained to keep coming back; delays be damned. WE let these things happen & provide no resistant. I'm certainly in the minority of people that would skip the issues produced by Kevin Smith & Frank Miller to wait for the trade. I know both creators are notorious for delays. Their names sell, so Marvel & DC puts up with it.
Just like with my daughter; if I don't make her respect the rule, it becomes nothing more then catchphrase.
M
If they didn't sell you the single issues, but later sold you the trade, then the house still wins. The fact that this is content you now have several different formats and time windows to choose from is just a further reminder that they are not in a periodical business anymore. They are in a content business.
What's the profit margin on trades vs. floppies? What's the breakdown for advertising? If Nike has a contract to put their ads in the floppies, but it's the ad-less trades that are what really sells, is it a profitable investment for Nike? If floppies struggle, but the traded collection sells, does a series have longevity?
Longevity is exactly the concern, but I think you are thinking about it in monthly periodical terms-
Things like Civil War or Secret Wars? They are books. As products, they are intended to be successful graphic novels, but thanks to there still being a fan base that will pay a premium to read it serialized first, they get to make money on that, too, and use the periodical issues to cover the talent and production costs on the project. A potential win-win as far as monetizing content.
But their eye is on longevity, but not the kind of longevity that, say, they were thinking of with ongoings ('will X-Men stay a hot book and keep them coming back every month quarter after quarter?').
Instead, longevity for these kinds of books become perennial sellers. Whether they become brands you can make a movie or video game out of (again, last night the Civil War collection was outselling anything Marvel made in the last 10 years). That is longevity. The idea that you can put a digital collection of something like Civil War on Comixology as an essential read for the Marvel Universe, and have it be a go to place for a new digital reader. You make it the thing libraries feel they should keep in circulation. I saw kids in a middle school library recently, and overheard a kid pitching his friend (as he held a library copy) on how cool it was. I doubt he knows that some of the serialized chapters were late back when they were being published, because he was probably 5 years old.
That is the longevity they should be most concerned with. To make sure the finished work is as good as it can be so that it lasts, and continues to sell, as the final completed product it is intended to be.
And, yes, in the short term on time would be better. And for those of us paying attention month to month, there is egg on Marvel's face. But in the long term it is a much less important than overall quality and consistency of the finished product.
So, yes, longevity is what matters. But I think it actually argues for them doing what they are doing in the case of Secret Wars.
From the "notes that may be only interesting to me" camp - only just realised that post-Secret Wars, The Maker still talks in the UItimate Universe sentence case font, but Miles Morales now talks in the Marvel Universe ALL CAPS font.
Comments
I do not know what the reason for the delays are. From press releases, it sounds like the art is running late. Outside of making sure more stuff was done before it was solicited, I am not sure what Marvel could have done to prevent this. If it is a writing delay, this is Hickman's story and he is out the door. If it is art delay, they are stuck if they want a story that looks consistent all the way thru.
I think I would be more understanding if when this happens, the company was a little more contrite and honest with the customer. Just say "we are sorry. The art or writing is late. This is how we are going to try to make sure it does not happen again." Instead we get something like "this is going to be the greatest comic ever published and it will be worth the wait."
This also shows one disadvantage of preordering. When this happens after you have 2 or 3 issues already on order it can make voting with the wallet tough. Unless of course you just follow the wise advice to "F-'em and "delay" your buying to wait for the trade!"
Fun speculation aside...
What's another week? Some comic readers get bent out of shape over delays. As if they believe they're entitled to never be inconvenienced.
And for those of us who used to buy comics before the internet, you never actually knew when a comic had become available until you saw it on the Marvel Bullpen pages. Readers had no information regarding the printing and distribution schedules. And comic subscriptions were a crap shoot. Now a days, there's so much transparency in the process, we know it all. There's so little point in getting upset if something's late. "Back in my day" they actually had comics that only came out every other month! Perish the thought.
Right now, I envy those who decided to "wait for the trade" on this event, because I think it will be a fantastic one hour read for any Marvel comic lover. I can wait for the delays, I'm pretty far behind in my reading as it is, but from what I've read of SW so far, it will be worth the wait.
Not entitled. Frankly, if the only reason I care when it comes out is so I can unload the floppies & recuperate some of the cash I put out for it. Unfortunately, I can't get the time back.
Having stated that; I'm expected to complete assignments by my deadlines. I'm betting other people working are the same way. If I hire a contractor & 3 weeks in he hasn't finished the design phase because he has 5 other projects he's also designing, why should I pay him for the services thus far? That's not entitlement, that's business.
Would it be "entitlement" if Netflix/Marvel Entertainment releases 10 of the 13 episodes of DD S2 on the release date with a statement the final 3 episodes are being delayed because of cast scheduling conflicts?
M
Sometimes you hire a contractor to remodel your home, and the engineer determines that they can't remove this wall as planned without installing a heavy steel beam, or they begin pulling back sheet rock and discover mold, or they're remodeling the bathroom and have to dig up the plumbing underneath the home unexpectedly, or the electrician discovers you have knob and tube wiring which by law has to be replaced, or the wife decides mid-construction, that she wants new fixtures and an island installed in the kitchen.... and so on.
I don't know of anyone who stops watching TV shows because an episode was delayed. I've never heard of anyone not reading a book because it's release date got delayed. I've never heard of anyone who refuses to see a movie because it was pushed back. Is this accepted practice for comicbook readers? Or do we just like to bitch about stuff that inconveniences us?
As I said, I believe the story has long been written, and Esad Ribic is only working on Secret Wars, as far as I can tell, so unless he is uncharacteristically late in his art, then I blame editorial. Does Marvel deserve harsh criticism for these delays? Yes, but not necessarily from people who are just flipping books. I want the story and the art work and the finished product to be as good as it can be. I can wait.
Your mileage may vary.
And you'd be the first person to bitch if Netflix only released 10 of 13 episodes of DD season 2. You wouldn't not or stop watching the series because the last 3 episodes are taking an extra month from the initial establish deadline.
Same with a movie; you'd still go to see the movie delayed weeks, but be the first person to bring up reshoots & revisions.
Whether I thought the story sucked or was amazing or keeping the books or flipping them, if something is given an established deadline, I would presume that's with Murphy's Law is factored.
The exception would be if nothing is started; scripts, pages, etc.
Again, that's not entitlement, that's a reasonable person's expections. If not, release dates would have "about/approximately on this date"...especially when the books that were to follow the story's conclusion have already been released.
M
Perhaps you and I see this differently because you're caught up with SW. I'm not. And even if I were I wouldn't be bitching about it because I have other interests. I get that people want what they want when they want it in a society like ours. We're living in an impatient, impulsive, instant gratification world with drive-thru windows, microwaves, 1-hour shipping, 30 minute delivery, DVRs, streaming media, the internet on our watches, etc. I just try not to get sucked into that immediate gratification syndrome. It's a by-product of our culture and probably related to the rise in attention deficit disorder.
Hope you won't quit comics over these delays @Matt, but you're certainly entitled to spend your money and your time any way you like.
A delay on a random issue of a title is ok. Things happen. SW is not a regular title. This was set up to be the flag ship event of the year and maybe the decade. If SW was the first event this happened too, it would also get a pass. This however has happened with Marvel before and in the case of SW, if you are going to surround almost your entire publication line around something, you need to make sure things get delivered on time
Maybe if you didn't have a burr under your saddle about Marvel's "treatment" of Fox held characters, I might believe you.
And I don't care about the immediate gratification. I get once a month shipping from DCBS; I'm always reading/getting SW later the the release date. It's not about immediate gratification, it's about being responsible & accountable. I don't take on cases I cannot handle. I don't make deadlines I cannot keep. That's what I'm calling bullshit on for these delays.
Much like with tv shows, the lack of stimuli from the product is what would have me quit comics.
M.
M
I'd get a 5 minute lecture at work if I tried something like that. Any reasoning I produced would be immediately countered with a solution I should've used.
M
You gonna stop buying Marvel over it? Will they care? Will it change anything other than eliminate your frustration?
Again, don't get me started on Hawkeye. That thread proved to me that you can bitch about books being late all you want, but no one really seemed to care. I guess they whipped that out of me there... on Hawkeye.
I really enjoyed that book and I just stuck it out. It did detract from the experience of following the book in issue while it came out, but I still have all the issues and upon rereading the whole run, it was a really great piece of work.
And to bring it back to the topic of the thread, has anyone read the new Lemire/Perez Hawkeye relaunch yet? I think I'll pull it out of my pile to read next.
And for the record SW is very good and I don't mind another week long delay. Apparently @nweathington doesn't either. He doesn't concern himself with release schedules and the like - as long as the end product is good.
Come to the other side... we have a pile of comics to read...
Now, don't get me started on how Marvel retroactively jacked up the price of those final Hawkeye issues after soliciting them at $2.99...
When your pull list is 3-4 books monthly, it's hard to fall behind.
M
I am not saying I know how Ribic's agreement with Marvel works. But I will say that I would be surprised if he has already been paid for pages he hasn't delivered yet. And, if that is the case, that working arrangement might be different than a lot of our own jobs we may try to compare it to.
Not saying that delays aren't a bummer. But rather that the lens of our own jobs might not be a fit.
For myself, the delays have slowed down the momentum, sure, but I'm enjoying SW, and expect to continue to. I would rather the team that started be the team that sees it through, rather than them going Infinity Gauntlet on it.
And I am reading some of the new titles and enjoying them. Not knowing the ending of SW yet has not been a problem for me. Just as I could enjoy some One Year Later titles before 52 finished.
Anyone know how long SW was in the making? If the creative team planned this a year prior, is it really that unreasonable to expect 60-75% completed by the time issue 1 is released? Sure there'll be delays & tweaks, but you're not scrapping that 75%. You're tweaking it & starting fresh the final 25%.
Maybe it's just my mindset of planning 2-3 steps ahead & creating timelines for others to unknowingly work within that finds delays like this poorly executed. It's a lot easier to have fewer glaring mishaps when you properly prepare.
M
Missed deadlines "happen" because there are no repercussions. If I tell my daughter not to do something & the only punishment is a stern talking to, how long before that rule holds no value. Being "fat, drunk, & stupid" is no excuse for failure anymore then "they won't lose any readers."
Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one & they always stink. They're used to justify a lack of planning & execution.
Exactly, the delays started 6 months ago. It's ridiculous initially. It's an embarrassment now. We're not talking a series (which shouldn't happen anyway), we're talking about an event that's to bridge to the next thing. Would you blame anyone for dropping the final issues in lieu of just getting to that next direction? Sounds like lost sales. If I was Marvel & had 1 delay 6 months ago, I'm sure as hell making sure there aren't any other delays.
Then again, I might just live in a world where accountability, planning, & timetables mean something.
M
And that is why I think the actor comparison doesn't really work. Because a huge part of an actor's job is about showing up, and the deadlines, traditionally, are harder deadlines: a shooting schedule, an opening night. If an actor doesn't show up, then there is a tangible and immediate cost to the production: All those other people that are paid to wait around. There is a reason that 'time is money' or 'we're burning daylight, people!' are cliche bits of dialogue in stories about movie making. And that is why penalties for not showing up, or completing work on a project, are often built into a contract with a star, and why, when you are just talking about workaday actors, payment is by the day, and one's own union (in the case of union actors) can be called upon to punish you for too much tardiness, or not showing up when called to work.
Because, basically, actors are paid for their time. For showing up, and contributing being a part of the thing that other people are making around them.
That is still pretty different from a contractor who is, in Ribic's case, given a script, and then expected to deliver back penciled and inked pages. Again, I am not saying there is no cost to getting behind and having to wait on that delivery... but I think it is harder to quantify that cost. Unlike everyone waiting for Mr. Brando to arrive on set so that shooting can finally start, there aren't a hundred or more people on a timeclock waiting for those pages to come in.
And, given that the readership, as far as I can tell, have historically not voted with their wallets to punish delayed comics for their delays, I think Marvel might have a lot less incentive to replace Ribic then, again, many of our bosses would have to replace us in our work.
2 of the top 10 best sellers in Amazon's Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels, as of this moment, are Civil War (#3) and Watchmen (#10).
You know what no one really cares about anymore when it comes to those? How punctual they were when the single issues first got published. Sure, some of us plugged-in comics superfans may remember, but that is, at best, a footnote at this point.
I think the reality of the market is that this content, if it succeeds, has a long tail. And while I get that it can put an unfair burden on retailers, and can strain the good will of the weekly-Wednesday periodical fans, I think Marvel gets that they can get away with not always being on time. If the content is in enough demand, the readership will still be there when it is finally delivered. Civil War 7 was one of the highest selling issues of the decade. More copies of that were ordered than of #6. And, given the long delays by then, I am pretty sure retailers would have had the chance to adjust orders downward if they were being told by lots of their customers, 'Take that off my pull and tell Marvel to go f**k themselves!' But, in the majority it would seem, people didn't. They were still there wanting to see how the story finishes.
Again, I am not saying this is ideal, and I am sensitive to the position this can put retailers in, especially. But it is a reminder of why, when it comes to demand for this content, time is not necessarily money.
Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one & they always stink. They're used to justify a lack of planning & execution.
Exactly, the delays started 6 months ago. It's ridiculous initially. It's an embarrassment now. We're not talking a series (which shouldn't happen anyway), we're talking about an event that's to bridge to the next thing. Would you blame anyone for dropping the final issues in lieu of just getting to that next direction? Sounds like lost sales. If I was Marvel & had 1 delay 6 months ago, I'm sure as hell making sure there aren't any other delays.
Then again, I might just live in a world where accountability, planning, & timetables mean something.
M
Man, I love it when people just assume the creative process runs like a factory, and all you have to do is turn on a switch and decide to work for everything to run like clockwork.
No repercussions? Okay, rarely do top artists get fired and blackballed these days (though it does happen on occasion), but the repercussion for a late artist is less money. Artists don't get paid for their time. They get paid for the number of pages they produce. It doesn't matter whether they spend one month producing a book or three months, they'll get paid the same amount either way. If the artist takes three extra weeks to draw a book that’s three weeks he could have spent drawing his next book and making more money. I don't know about you, but three weeks of no pay would put a big dent in my budget.
But, as David pointed out, event books like this have a good chance for earning decent royalties. Ribic may be well rewarded down the road for putting in that extra three weeks at the board if the book becomes a perennial seller.
Comics are no longer a disposable medium. The industry now plays for the long game—multiple collections and digital editions means that every comic is potential revenue for the lifetime of the company. And as a result, delays don't matter nearly as much as they used to, and deadlines are secondary to the final product.
Even if the artist only has this project, that doesn't mean the other creators do as well.
Will it cost Marvel (or DC) financially to have constant delays? Nope. Collectors are trained to keep coming back; delays be damned. WE let these things happen & provide no resistant. I'm certainly in the minority of people that would skip the issues produced by Kevin Smith & Frank Miller to wait for the trade. I know both creators are notorious for delays. Their names sell, so Marvel & DC puts up with it.
Just like with my daughter; if I don't make her respect the rule, it becomes nothing more then catchphrase.
M
M
Longevity is exactly the concern, but I think you are thinking about it in monthly periodical terms-
Things like Civil War or Secret Wars? They are books. As products, they are intended to be successful graphic novels, but thanks to there still being a fan base that will pay a premium to read it serialized first, they get to make money on that, too, and use the periodical issues to cover the talent and production costs on the project. A potential win-win as far as monetizing content.
But their eye is on longevity, but not the kind of longevity that, say, they were thinking of with ongoings ('will X-Men stay a hot book and keep them coming back every month quarter after quarter?').
Instead, longevity for these kinds of books become perennial sellers. Whether they become brands you can make a movie or video game out of (again, last night the Civil War collection was outselling anything Marvel made in the last 10 years). That is longevity. The idea that you can put a digital collection of something like Civil War on Comixology as an essential read for the Marvel Universe, and have it be a go to place for a new digital reader. You make it the thing libraries feel they should keep in circulation. I saw kids in a middle school library recently, and overheard a kid pitching his friend (as he held a library copy) on how cool it was. I doubt he knows that some of the serialized chapters were late back when they were being published, because he was probably 5 years old.
That is the longevity they should be most concerned with. To make sure the finished work is as good as it can be so that it lasts, and continues to sell, as the final completed product it is intended to be.
And, yes, in the short term on time would be better. And for those of us paying attention month to month, there is egg on Marvel's face. But in the long term it is a much less important than overall quality and consistency of the finished product.
So, yes, longevity is what matters. But I think it actually argues for them doing what they are doing in the case of Secret Wars.