Remember that time back in the early days of the Captain America and The Falcon bronze age comics where some cops arrested Sam Wilson because he was black, but let The Trapster escape because he was white?
You don't?
Well, I have good news for you lapsed readers. In the recent issue of Captain America: Sam Wilson, Nick Spencer has retconned Marvel history so you will remember it forever.Sure, it's a bit heavy-handed and on the nose. And the law enforcement officer's appearance seems like a bit of a stereotype, but this is the kind of red-meat that social justice warriors can't get enough of. Way to go Nick!
When Captain America and the Falcon was coming out, there's no way that a story like this would have made print. That's one of the reasons why Green Lantern 76 is considered to have been so ground breaking.
Just because it wasn't in the book at the time, doesn't mean that it's unrealistic or inappropriate. All it means is that there was no good mechanism to talk about it at the time or that the market wasn't considered likely to support the ideas that it presented.
Captain America Sam Wilson #11 (July) sold 29,145 issues (a portion of which are collecting dust on retailers shelves and in convention bargin bins) so I am not sure if the market is really supporting what Spencer is selling in the book right now.
I do care what or why Spencer writes about as long as it makes sense. The problem with this is:
1. The cop had no idea who the Falcon or the Trapster was. Was it everybodies first day? 2. The dumpy cop working as jailer apparently was also the beat cop who Falcon stop pursing a super villian mid crime to give up to. 3. Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
hurting your sensibilities and confronting you with a reality that you would prefer to deny.
Did you really say that? Wow.
Absolutely. You spend a nice amount of time both whining about "social justice warriors" and trigger warnings and at the same time crying foul when anything doesn't fit match your expectations of what the book should be be or tampers with continuity in a way that doesn't validate your presented worldview.
Again, it seems ironic that you spend so much time whining about how these things offend you but at the same time mocking other people for the things that offend them.
Remember that time back in the early days of the Captain America and The Falcon bronze age comics where some cops arrested Sam Wilson because he was black, but let The Trapster escape because he was white?
You don't?
Well, I have good news for you lapsed readers. In the recent issue of Captain America: Sam Wilson, Nick Spencer has retconned Marvel history so you will remember it forever.Sure, it's a bit heavy-handed and on the nose. And the law enforcement officer's appearance seems like a bit of a stereotype, but this is the kind of red-meat that social justice warriors can't get enough of. Way to go Nick!
When Captain America and the Falcon was coming out, there's no way that a story like this would have made print. That's one of the reasons why Green Lantern 76 is considered to have been so ground breaking.
Just because it wasn't in the book at the time, doesn't mean that it's unrealistic or inappropriate. All it means is that there was no good mechanism to talk about it at the time or that the market wasn't considered likely to support the ideas that it presented.
Captain America Sam Wilson #11 (July) sold 29,145 issues (a portion of which are collecting dust on retailers shelves and in convention bargin bins) so I am not sure if the market is really supporting what Spencer is selling in the book right now.
I do care what or why Spencer writes about as long as it makes sense. The problem with this is:
1. The cop had no idea who the Falcon or the Trapster was. Was it everybodies first day? 2. The dumpy cop working as jailer apparently was also the beat cop who Falcon stop pursing a super villian mid crime to give up to. 3. Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
1 - Haven't read the book. From the look of the cop's uniform, it looks pretty Mayberry?
2 - See 1.
3 - Sliding time scale is problematic to me. It means that Nixon wasn't the leader of the Secret Empire and Tony Stark didn't get injured in Vietnam. I've read both of those stories so they happened.
1. The cop had no idea who the Falcon or the Trapster was. Was it everybodies first day?
Does it say in the comic where this arrest took place? If it was in New York, or maybe even anywhere in the Northeast, I would agree this is a problem. If not, I doubt the Trapster gets into the national papers very often, so an officer in the Midwest or on the West Coast might not be automatically familiar with him. And given the Falcon’s costume, this would have been early in his career, so maybe the same applies. Though I would think his being Captain America’s partner would make him fairly well known even to some cop out in the rural Midwest. I can probably give Spencer this one.
2. The dumpy cop working as jailer apparently was also the beat cop who Falcon stop pursing a super villian mid crime to give up to.
Was there any lead-up to this? Do we see the actual arrest? I can’t really judge without more context. If it was a case of the cop having drawn his weapon, and the potential of nearby civilians being accidentally shot if the cop opened fire, then I can see why Falcon would give up the chase and come along quietly. Otherwise, not so much. This one’s a no-decision until I get further info, but it most likely is a case of lazy storytelling.
3. Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
Marvel and DC timelines, as you say, are floating. I would guess this costume would have been worn “eight years ago” or so. This one is very much a “your mileage may vary” kind of judgment call.
Personally, I don’t mind fuzzy time references. It can give a scene like this some deeper reference and meaning. For instance, the book he is reading, Soul on Ice, was published in 1968, and was definitely something the Falcon (who was created in 1969) would have read in his early days. He wouldn’t have agreed with everything in the book—or condoned the author’s crimes—but there are parts that would have resonated with him as he was portrayed in his first few years.
Remember that time back in the early days of the Captain America and The Falcon bronze age comics where some cops arrested Sam Wilson because he was black, but let The Trapster escape because he was white?
You don't?
Well, I have good news for you lapsed readers. In the recent issue of Captain America: Sam Wilson, Nick Spencer has retconned Marvel history so you will remember it forever.Sure, it's a bit heavy-handed and on the nose. And the law enforcement officer's appearance seems like a bit of a stereotype, but this is the kind of red-meat that social justice warriors can't get enough of. Way to go Nick!
When Captain America and the Falcon was coming out, there's no way that a story like this would have made print. That's one of the reasons why Green Lantern 76 is considered to have been so ground breaking.
Just because it wasn't in the book at the time, doesn't mean that it's unrealistic or inappropriate. All it means is that there was no good mechanism to talk about it at the time or that the market wasn't considered likely to support the ideas that it presented.
Captain America Sam Wilson #11 (July) sold 29,145 issues (a portion of which are collecting dust on retailers shelves and in convention bargin bins) so I am not sure if the market is really supporting what Spencer is selling in the book right now.
I do care what or why Spencer writes about as long as it makes sense. The problem with this is:
1. The cop had no idea who the Falcon or the Trapster was. Was it everybodies first day? 2. The dumpy cop working as jailer apparently was also the beat cop who Falcon stop pursing a super villian mid crime to give up to. 3. Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
1 - Haven't read the book. From the look of the cop's uniform, it looks pretty Mayberry?
2 - See 1.
3 - Sliding time scale is problematic to me. It means that Nixon wasn't the leader of the Secret Empire and Tony Stark didn't get injured in Vietnam. I've read both of those stories so they happened.
Sure the stories happened but they probably did not happen the same way in the current Marvel Universe, timeline, and continuity in which Spencer is currently writing.
And post Hickman Secret Wars, there really is no firm foundation for anything in the past actually happening or what the long term past is for the current Marvel Universe...so who knows? :neutral:
Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
No this is a retconned flashback from some previously unmentioned event taking place sometime between Captain America #117 (Sept 1969), and issue #144 (Dec 1971). Nick Spencer continues to politicize the title and rewrite Marvel history to his liking. I suppose he's entitled to do so. He's the writer.Sam Wilson is iconic because was the very first African-America super hero, as opposed to The Black Panther, who preceded him, who wasn't American (African-Wakandan?). He was so popular that he rapidly became a co-headliner on the series. The Falcon was his own man. He also happens to also the first super hero of color to get his own action figure back in the 1970’s, reflecting his importance to the times. So all the kids that looked up to him as an ideal and a racial equalizer now get to see him sitting in jail after this bunch of miscreant law enforcement officers somehow executed his arrest finding him glued down. How humiliating.
Not sure if it's silly, or academic, to argue what Nick's trying to do, but it's meant to be a storytelling device that The Falcon reflects on while he decides if he is going to side with US Agent or not. It's a bit unrealistic, and certainly shoehorned in for the sake of grinding Spencer's axe. So now, the first super hero of color was also falsely arrested by racist cops because he was black. Thanks Nick.
And I'm just a moron because I don't agree with this approach I guess...
@bralinator face reality. Black superheroes are arrested by white cops while white supervillains are let go all the time.
This is a Marvel scandal worthy of an 8 issue (later to be expanded to 9 - which seems to be the new norm) crossover event!
For decades, Super Villians have not broken out of prison. They have been let out by corrupt possibly racist police under the influence of organized crime led by the Kingpin!
If you want the Social Justice aspect of this, pitch this to Spencer on twitter. If you want issue after issue of exposition, then Bendis is adding another event writing credit to his resume.
Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
No this is a retconned flashback from some previously unmentioned event taking place sometime between Captain America #117 (Sept 1969), and issue #144 (Dec 1971). Nick Spencer continues to politicize the title and rewrite Marvel history to his liking. I suppose he's entitled to do so. He's the writer.Sam Wilson is iconic because was the very first African-America super hero, as opposed to The Black Panther, who preceded him, who wasn't American (African-Wakandan?). He was so popular that he rapidly became a co-headliner on the series. The Falcon was his own man. He also happens to also the first super hero of color to get his own action figure back in the 1970’s, reflecting his importance to the times. So all the kids that looked up to him as an ideal and a racial equalizer now get to see him sitting in jail after this bunch of miscreant law enforcement officers somehow executed his arrest finding him glued down. How humiliating.
Not sure if it's silly, or academic, to argue what Nick's trying to do, but it's meant to be a storytelling device that The Falcon reflects on while he decides if he is going to side with US Agent or not. It's a bit unrealistic, and certainly shoehorned in for the sake of grinding Spencer's axe. So now, the first super hero of color was also falsely arrested by racist cops because he was black. Thanks Nick.
And I'm just a moron because I don't agree with this approach I guess...
Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
No this is a retconned flashback from some previously unmentioned event taking place sometime between Captain America #117 (Sept 1969), and issue #144 (Dec 1971). Nick Spencer continues to politicize the title and rewrite Marvel history to his liking. I suppose he's entitled to do so. He's the writer.Sam Wilson is iconic because was the very first African-America super hero, as opposed to The Black Panther, who preceded him, who wasn't American (African-Wakandan?). He was so popular that he rapidly became a co-headliner on the series. The Falcon was his own man. He also happens to also the first super hero of color to get his own action figure back in the 1970’s, reflecting his importance to the times. So all the kids that looked up to him as an ideal and a racial equalizer now get to see him sitting in jail after this bunch of miscreant law enforcement officers somehow executed his arrest finding him glued down. How humiliating.
Not sure if it's silly, or academic, to argue what Nick's trying to do, but it's meant to be a storytelling device that The Falcon reflects on while he decides if he is going to side with US Agent or not. It's a bit unrealistic, and certainly shoehorned in for the sake of grinding Spencer's axe. So now, the first super hero of color was also falsely arrested by racist cops because he was black. Thanks Nick.
And I'm just a moron because I don't agree with this approach I guess...
So as I said earlier, it makes no sense. Or at least it is very lazy story telling.
It is not Mayberry or the West Coast. A NY cop did not not who Falcon or the Trapster was. The story possibly references a time period which does not make sense with current modern Marvel. I say possibly because the squad car shown looks pretty modern. So maybe Falcon just likes the costume. The Falcon stopped pursuing a super villain in NY mid crime to give up to a beat cop. Edit - Sam was found glued to the floor. Which does help clarify.
I dont think Sam gave up to be arrested. The officer says he was glued to the floor. They assumed an Avenger left him there to be picked up by the police.
At this point you'd think they'd check his identity. Surely somebody at the station would have known who Falcon was.
I dont think Sam gave up to be arrested. The officer says he was glued to the floor. They assumed an Avenger left him there to be picked up by the police.
At this point you'd think they'd check his identity. Surely somebody at the station would have known who Falcon was.
It really is a lousy bit of storytelling.
I missed the glue to the floor part. That does help.
Okay, this page clearly shows this is set in New York, so they would know the Falcon is Cap’s partner. It also implies that the Trapster was not seen by the police, and that Falcon was already immobilized at the scene of the crime when they arrived. And let’s not forget that Sam Wilson did have ties to the mob (or has that been written out of continuity now?). It’s a reasonable assumption that Falcon hadn’t yet proven himself in the eyes of local law enforcement at the time of this incident, which would have made them less inclined to believe him whether he was black or not—though this scene is clearly implying the arresting officer didn’t believe his story simply because he was black.
But—it’s daytime outside, so one can assume that either the crime happened during daylight, or it took a long time for Captain America to get the word that his partner was in jail. If it happened during the daytime, where were the witnesses who could have told the police what happened? No security cameras at the bank that could corroborate his story?
I don’t have a problem with the scene in principle—Falcon being mistakenly arrested by the police. Retcons have been going on in comics for almost as long as comics have been made, and this is a scene I could see one of Marvel’s then-young writers writing back in the early ’70s. It’s a bit lazy and not as well well thought out as it could/should have been, that’s certain, but that’s not really the point here, is it?
So all the kids that looked up to him as an ideal and a racial equalizer now get to see him sitting in jail after this bunch of miscreant law enforcement officers somehow executed his arrest finding him glued down. How humiliating.
Getting taken down by the Trapster isn’t going to win you any fans, I agree. But that’s kind of beside the point, as well. The systematic racial bias in our policing policies and prison system is the point he’s illustrating and what we should be paying attention to. Yes, he’s much more heavy-handed in his writing than I prefer. I can’t say I'm a fan of anything Spencer’s written to be honest. But I have no problem with the issue being raised in a Captain America comic.
Here is a way Spencer could have got the same point across and have it maybe be even more meaningful:
Flashback: Steve Rogers passes the Shield of Capt America to Sam Wilson
Flashback: On one of his first missions as the New Cap, Sam has followed Batroc into the Mountains after a Denver bank robbery. Batroc gets the jump on Cap and dropkicks him into a tree, knocking him out.
Sam awakes to some white mountain cop pointing his gun at him. Cop: you are under arrest for bank robbery. Cap: I am Captain America. I was chasing the real robber. Cop: Captain America is Steve Rogers. Cap: I am his replacement. Sam Wilson, the New Captain America. Cop: Captain America cannot be black.
It sounds like The Falcon was glued to the floor and police arrived and were able to take him into custody, so he must have been completely incapacitated. And yet Captain America seems think Sam was about to break free, or was already free and about to pursue the bad guy since he says that "He was the one trying to apprehend The Trapster, and he would have if you hadn't arrested him."
But the way Spencer has written the cop's lines, it appears that The Trapster (aka Paste Pot Pete) got the best of The Falcon and when the racist cops finally showed up they found a black guy who's been glued to the floor "nice and tidy," as the sloppy policeman says. Which seems to indicate that they never saw The Trapster. But, when Steve arrives, Sam Wilson says the "black guy, white guy" bit which seems to imply that the racist cops actually did witness the kerfuffle, but let The Trapster get away because he is white.. confusing.
Or - did police get an alarm notification / call of a robbery taking place, arrive to see a guy in a funny costume glued to the floor who they suspect must be the perp who's been incapacitated and left behind by the Avengers (or even as Spider-Man does sometimes) and decide to take him into custody? If they don't know who he is, was it racism because they arrested the only costumed guy stuck on the scene or was it racism because they saw The Trapster and since he is a white guy, the cops mistook him for an Avenger and presumed the black guy was the bad guy?
Hard to say, because of Nick Spencer's writing style.
Disclosure: And I don't care for his writing, his politics, the way he's handling some of these significant issues, or how he's managing these legacy characters. But, I suppose that's something to take up with his editor, Tom Brevoort. Mine is clearly the minority opinion.
it seems ironic that you spend so much time whining about how these things offend you but at the same time mocking other people for the things that offend them.
Sorry, I missed this earlier.
Your description that I'm "whining" is somewhat of a direct insult to me, but certainly appropriate given your position on the issues I've spoken out on. I posted a comment and you jumped right in to argue with me. Was it whining when I made the first post, or when I defended my position just now? This is all open to debate and I am happy to debate it with you.
I don't remember mocking anyone here over things that offend them, unless you're talking about those who are offended by my opinion. And even then I strive to resist the urge to mock them. Please show me where I mocked someone here who was offended? Or do you mean my use of the term 'social justice warriors'? Or I bet it was when I called out those that were creating online petitions demanding alterations to movies that they didn't like? Or was it when I quoted Clint Eastwood's comment on the 'pussy generation' of those who need 'safe spaces?' Is that what you mean by me mocking others who are offended @hauberk?
This is an open discussion forum. If we cannot discuss what we like and dislike in current comics, what exactly is the point of discussion forums? Is it to brag about our comic collections, compliment the CGS crew, and post silly pictures? There's so much more worth discussing than that. I think what Nick Spencer is doing to Marvel's legacy characters, and actually much of Marvel editorial is doing in general, is terrible. And I will continue to post these examples whenever I think it's appropriate and I find the time. That's not ALL I post, as I celebrate great artwork, tv shows I like, movies, music, youtube vids, the comic solicitations for next month, and on and on -- but I know I can count on you (and @Brack ) always being there to push-back when I have an unpopular opinion that you don't share.
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in? I am guessing these weren't preview pages, and the issue has actually been published by now.
EDIT- And, to add another question-- if there is someone who has read the whole issue, what was your feeling on how that flashback was meant to fit into the rest of the story? Did it work for you, or not, as part of the issue as a whole?
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in? I am guessing these weren't preview pages, and the issue has actually been published by now.
This issue being talked about came out last Wednesday (Aug 17th). No, I have not read this issue.
I have read the first 8 issues (of currently 12) and that was enough. The storytelling up through the 8 I have read was not great, so seeing these couple of pages only reaffirms to me that this is just a continuation of the lackluster stuff I have already seen.
Quick show of hands. Who has read more than 8 issues of this? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller? If you answer yes, what is it that has won you over?
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in? I am guessing these weren't preview pages, and the issue has actually been published by now.
EDIT- And, to add another question-- if there is someone who has read the whole issue, what was your feeling on how that flashback was meant to fit into the rest of the story? Did it work for you, or not, as part of the issue as a whole?
Sorry @David_D - I forgot to mention you earlier when I was commenting on push-back. An oversight on my part.
Is it a prerequisite that you have to have read the comic book in order to discuss the relative portions you've seen of it? Are consumers not allowed to make a judgment call on a sample anymore? Can one not flip through the pages or read a preview and draw their own conclusions based on what they've already read of the creative team's prior body of work? Do we now need to read the entire arc, series, or single issue in order to comment on these things?
The issue is out now and can be borrowed or bought by anyone. I no longer buy Nick Spencer books, but my wife has on occasion done so on my behalf accidentally.
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in? I am guessing these weren't preview pages, and the issue has actually been published by now.
EDIT- And, to add another question-- if there is someone who has read the whole issue, what was your feeling on how that flashback was meant to fit into the rest of the story? Did it work for you, or not, as part of the issue as a whole?
Is it a prerequisite that you have to have read the comic book in order to discuss the relative portions you've seen of it? Are consumers not allowed to make a judgment call on a sample anymore? Can one not flip through the pages or read a preview and draw their own conclusions based on what they've already read of the creative team's prior body of work? Do we now need to read the entire arc, series, or single issue in order to comment on these things?
I guess it depends on whether or not you are looking to have an informed discussion.
These seems to be a lot of energy spent second-guessing a comic that can be read, but maybe no one having the discussion *has* read.
Imagine spending that time instead having a discussion about what you actually are reading. Instead of continuing a discussion about why you aren't reading what you aren't reading.
Imagine spending that time instead having a discussion about what you actually are reading. Instead of continuing a discussion about why you aren't reading what you aren't reading.
Does that include time wasted explaining to me why I shouldn't be discussing the book David? Or discussing movie and casting news for movies we haven't seen? Or musical episodes of tv shows that have only been announced but haven't aired? I happen to think this is topical for this thread. You don't have to participate.
And for what it's worth, I doubt anyone wants to hear my thoughts on what I'm currently reading from Marvel. I'm in the middle of the 1991 run of Namor The Sub-Mariner and the first Marvel Masterworks of The Inhumans.
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in? I am guessing these weren't preview pages, and the issue has actually been published by now.
EDIT- And, to add another question-- if there is someone who has read the whole issue, what was your feeling on how that flashback was meant to fit into the rest of the story? Did it work for you, or not, as part of the issue as a whole?
Is it a prerequisite that you have to have read the comic book in order to discuss the relative portions you've seen of it? Are consumers not allowed to make a judgment call on a sample anymore? Can one not flip through the pages or read a preview and draw their own conclusions based on what they've already read of the creative team's prior body of work? Do we now need to read the entire arc, series, or single issue in order to comment on these things?
Imagine spending that time instead having a discussion about what you actually are reading. Instead of continuing a discussion about why you aren't reading what you aren't reading.
it seems ironic that you spend so much time whining about how these things offend you but at the same time mocking other people for the things that offend them.
Sorry, I missed this earlier.
Your description that I'm "whining" is somewhat of a direct insult to me, but certainly appropriate given your position on the issues I've spoken out on. I posted a comment and you jumped right in to argue with me. Was it whining when I made the first post, or when I defended my position just now? This is all open to debate and I am happy to debate it with you.
I don't remember mocking anyone here over things that offend them, unless you're talking about those who are offended by my opinion. And even then I strive to resist the urge to mock them. Please show me where I mocked someone here who was offended? Or do you mean my use of the term 'social justice warriors'? Or I bet it was when I called out those that were creating online petitions demanding alterations to movies that they didn't like? Or was it when I quoted Clint Eastwood's comment on the 'pussy generation' of those who need 'safe spaces?' Is that what you mean by me mocking others who are offended @hauberk?
This is an open discussion forum. If we cannot discuss what we like and dislike in current comics, what exactly is the point of discussion forums? Is it to brag about our comic collections, compliment the CGS crew, and post silly pictures? There's so much more worth discussing than that. I think what Nick Spencer is doing to Marvel's legacy characters, and actually much of Marvel editorial is doing in general, is terrible. And I will continue to post these examples whenever I think it's appropriate and I find the time. That's not ALL I post, as I celebrate great artwork, tv shows I like, movies, music, youtube vids, the comic solicitations for next month, and on and on -- but I know I can count on you (and @Brack ) always being there to push-back when I have an unpopular opinion that you don't share.
Good to know that I was being clear in my intent.
I don't know if you've offended anyone or not. From a personal standpoint, I've seen it pop up over and over for I'm not sure how long. It goes well back before those recent comments, but they've all been pretty consistent. My point here was that I rather enjoy the irony of you complaining that Cap isn't aligning with your politics and that you repeatedly find it offensive, but at the same time other people should be mocked for needing safe spaces or trigger warnings.
That said, please feel free to hide behind whatever you want.
Also please feel free to disregard actual meatier section of my original post - whether or not it was heavy handed on Spencer's part, I don't believe that a story implying racial profiling would have passed muster in 70/71. Again, I refer you to the Green Lantern issue above and how ground-breaking it was at the time.
Really quite a shame that Denny O'Neil was such a social justice warrior and we won't even talk about the terrible injustice that he did to DItko's vision of the Question.
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in? I am guessing these weren't preview pages, and the issue has actually been published by now.
EDIT- And, to add another question-- if there is someone who has read the whole issue, what was your feeling on how that flashback was meant to fit into the rest of the story? Did it work for you, or not, as part of the issue as a whole?
Is it a prerequisite that you have to have read the comic book in order to discuss the relative portions you've seen of it? Are consumers not allowed to make a judgment call on a sample anymore? Can one not flip through the pages or read a preview and draw their own conclusions based on what they've already read of the creative team's prior body of work? Do we now need to read the entire arc, series, or single issue in order to comment on these things?
I guess it depends on whether or not you are looking to have an informed discussion.
These seems to be a lot of energy spent second-guessing a comic that can be read, but maybe no one having the discussion *has* read.
Imagine spending that time instead having a discussion about what you actually are reading. Instead of continuing a discussion about why you aren't reading what you aren't reading.
I also haven't read it (or any other Marvel in years). I keep popping in here in hopes of finding something that will make me enthusiastic enough to dip a toe back in. Alas, I think it's going to be a long time coming. However, this kind of sturm and drang does make me want to go out and pick up the Spencer run.
Alas, I seem to be too niche, too Valiant and too DC to get much conversation going on the things that I'm reading to get any conversation going. I'd happily dive into a conversation on all of the great stuff in Black Science or Lazarus.
It sounds like The Falcon was glued to the floor and police arrived and were able to take him into custody, so he must have been completely incapacitated. And yet Captain America seems think Sam was about to break free, or was already free and about to pursue the bad guy since he says that "He was the one trying to apprehend The Trapster, and he would have if you hadn't arrested him."
But the way Spencer has written the cop's lines, it appears that The Trapster (aka Paste Pot Pete) got the best of The Falcon and when the racist cops finally showed up they found a black guy who's been glued to the floor "nice and tidy," as the sloppy policeman says. Which seems to indicate that they never saw The Trapster. But, when Steve arrives, Sam Wilson says the "black guy, white guy" bit which seems to imply that the racist cops actually did witness the kerfuffle, but let The Trapster get away because he is white.. confusing.
Cap’s dialogue and the cop’s dialogue tell conflicting stories—that much is clear, even if what actually happened is not. You don’t have to read the whole issue to see that, just the complete two-page scene. Read just the first page, and you get one story. Read just the second, and you get a different story. And not in a cool Rashomon sort of way, either.
Speaking of context-- a quick show of hands: How many people discussing these two or three pages, and judging the quality, the politics, the reason for it to be included in the issue, or whether or not the storytelling is good or lousy, have actually read this issue? Experienced these pages in the context of the story these excerpts are in?
I have not read the issue, but as I stated above, I don’t think I need to read the whole issue to come to the conclusion that this two-page scene was confusing at best. I'm not commenting on how this scene relates to Wilson’s problems in the current storyline, just on the technical storytelling of this particular scene. But we did need both pages of the scene to get the necessary context, which is why I had so many questions before the first page of the scene was posted.
I'm a big believer in context as a rule. But I think comics can be broken down and discussed in smaller detail, and good conversations can come from that. I once had a great discussion about a three-panel sequence in Bone. No context beyond those three panels was needed for the purposes of that discussion, because it was about the timing and interconnectedness of those three panels with each other, and not about what it meant for the rest of the story. It’s all about the scope the discussion you want to have.
Good to know my knack for picking low-hanging fruit is still accurate enough to catch the ire of the dedicated SJW's in our midst!
Exactly whose ire is being raised here? You're the one who constantly feels the need to start discussions of Nick Spencer's Captain America comics for whatever reasons you have for doing it. I'm unsure at this point, given that you've repeatedly told us you've stopped reading it.
So, let me give you some advice, stop clicking on CBR preview articles for comics you already know you don't like. It'll be better for all of us.
Well, that's fifteen minutes of my life I can never get back, catching up on new replies for this thread.
Holy crap, people. Relax.
Take a deep breath. Chill.
Further backstory is introduced ALL THE TIME in comics. And frankly, something like this makes a lot of sense in the world we live in.
It doesn't make you a "Social Justice Warrior" if you're fine with it. It makes you somebody who knows how the world works.
Captain America has been a political book for years. Your personal politics may not necessarily align with those being introduced, but it doesn't change the fact that this isn't the first time it's happened.
And you know what's awesome? If you don't like it, there are other comic books out there you can read instead! I know, right? Crazy concept!
Now can we PLEASE get this thread back on track, and go back to how adorable Moon Girl is and how I wish to squeeze her cheeks?
Sorry, I dropped Moon Girl. But I'd be happy to talk about Squirrel Girl, or Silver Surfer, or Power Man & Iron Fist, or Black Widow, or Black Panther, or...
Sorry, I dropped Moon Girl. But I'd be happy to talk about Squirrel Girl, or Silver Surfer, or Power Man & Iron Fist, or Black Widow, or Black Panther, or...
Black Widow is a good book.
I can also help with Ms Marvel, Thor, Spider Woman, Silk, and in a couple months Spider Gwen (when the HC in this month's order gets shipped)
Comments
I do care what or why Spencer writes about as long as it makes sense. The problem with this is:
1. The cop had no idea who the Falcon or the Trapster was. Was it everybodies first day?
2. The dumpy cop working as jailer apparently was also the beat cop who Falcon stop pursing a super villian mid crime to give up to.
3. Falcon is in his 70's Bronze age costume. Marvel time is confusing but Sam Wilson probably should have been a kid and Cap still in ice during the 70's based on the floating Marvel timeline. Unless Sam just decided to wear it in say 2013 or something for the fun of it.
Again, it seems ironic that you spend so much time whining about how these things offend you but at the same time mocking other people for the things that offend them.
2 - See 1.
3 - Sliding time scale is problematic to me. It means that Nixon wasn't the leader of the Secret Empire and Tony Stark didn't get injured in Vietnam. I've read both of those stories so they happened.
Personally, I don’t mind fuzzy time references. It can give a scene like this some deeper reference and meaning. For instance, the book he is reading, Soul on Ice, was published in 1968, and was definitely something the Falcon (who was created in 1969) would have read in his early days. He wouldn’t have agreed with everything in the book—or condoned the author’s crimes—but there are parts that would have resonated with him as he was portrayed in his first few years.
And post Hickman Secret Wars, there really is no firm foundation for anything in the past actually happening or what the long term past is for the current Marvel Universe...so who knows? :neutral:
Not sure if it's silly, or academic, to argue what Nick's trying to do, but it's meant to be a storytelling device that The Falcon reflects on while he decides if he is going to side with US Agent or not. It's a bit unrealistic, and certainly shoehorned in for the sake of grinding Spencer's axe. So now, the first super hero of color was also falsely arrested by racist cops because he was black. Thanks Nick.
And I'm just a moron because I don't agree with this approach I guess...
In case anyone needs a bit more context to see where Nick Spencer is going with this.
For decades, Super Villians have not broken out of prison. They have been let out by corrupt possibly racist police under the influence of organized crime led by the Kingpin!
If you want the Social Justice aspect of this, pitch this to Spencer on twitter. If you want issue after issue of exposition, then Bendis is adding another event writing credit to his resume.
It is not Mayberry or the West Coast. A NY cop did not not who Falcon or the Trapster was.
The story possibly references a time period which does not make sense with current modern Marvel. I say possibly because the squad car shown looks pretty modern. So maybe Falcon just likes the costume.
The Falcon stopped pursuing a super villain in NY mid crime to give up to a beat cop. Edit - Sam was found glued to the floor. Which does help clarify.
At this point you'd think they'd check his identity. Surely somebody at the station would have known who Falcon was.
It really is a lousy bit of storytelling.
Okay, this page clearly shows this is set in New York, so they would know the Falcon is Cap’s partner. It also implies that the Trapster was not seen by the police, and that Falcon was already immobilized at the scene of the crime when they arrived. And let’s not forget that Sam Wilson did have ties to the mob (or has that been written out of continuity now?). It’s a reasonable assumption that Falcon hadn’t yet proven himself in the eyes of local law enforcement at the time of this incident, which would have made them less inclined to believe him whether he was black or not—though this scene is clearly implying the arresting officer didn’t believe his story simply because he was black.
But—it’s daytime outside, so one can assume that either the crime happened during daylight, or it took a long time for Captain America to get the word that his partner was in jail. If it happened during the daytime, where were the witnesses who could have told the police what happened? No security cameras at the bank that could corroborate his story?
I don’t have a problem with the scene in principle—Falcon being mistakenly arrested by the police. Retcons have been going on in comics for almost as long as comics have been made, and this is a scene I could see one of Marvel’s then-young writers writing back in the early ’70s. It’s a bit lazy and not as well well thought out as it could/should have been, that’s certain, but that’s not really the point here, is it? Getting taken down by the Trapster isn’t going to win you any fans, I agree. But that’s kind of beside the point, as well. The systematic racial bias in our policing policies and prison system is the point he’s illustrating and what we should be paying attention to. Yes, he’s much more heavy-handed in his writing than I prefer. I can’t say I'm a fan of anything Spencer’s written to be honest. But I have no problem with the issue being raised in a Captain America comic.
Flashback:
Steve Rogers passes the Shield of Capt America to Sam Wilson
Flashback:
On one of his first missions as the New Cap, Sam has followed Batroc into the Mountains after a Denver bank robbery. Batroc gets the jump on Cap and dropkicks him into a tree, knocking him out.
Sam awakes to some white mountain cop pointing his gun at him.
Cop: you are under arrest for bank robbery.
Cap: I am Captain America. I was chasing the real robber.
Cop: Captain America is Steve Rogers.
Cap: I am his replacement. Sam Wilson, the New Captain America.
Cop: Captain America cannot be black.
Then Steve comes and gets Sam out of jail.
Marvel, you can send the check to:
CaptShazam
Colorado Springs, Co
But the way Spencer has written the cop's lines, it appears that The Trapster (aka Paste Pot Pete) got the best of The Falcon and when the racist cops finally showed up they found a black guy who's been glued to the floor "nice and tidy," as the sloppy policeman says. Which seems to indicate that they never saw The Trapster. But, when Steve arrives, Sam Wilson says the "black guy, white guy" bit which seems to imply that the racist cops actually did witness the kerfuffle, but let The Trapster get away because he is white.. confusing.
Or - did police get an alarm notification / call of a robbery taking place, arrive to see a guy in a funny costume glued to the floor who they suspect must be the perp who's been incapacitated and left behind by the Avengers (or even as Spider-Man does sometimes) and decide to take him into custody? If they don't know who he is, was it racism because they arrested the only costumed guy stuck on the scene or was it racism because they saw The Trapster and since he is a white guy, the cops mistook him for an Avenger and presumed the black guy was the bad guy?
Hard to say, because of Nick Spencer's writing style.
Disclosure: And I don't care for his writing, his politics, the way he's handling some of these significant issues, or how he's managing these legacy characters. But, I suppose that's something to take up with his editor, Tom Brevoort. Mine is clearly the minority opinion.
Your description that I'm "whining" is somewhat of a direct insult to me, but certainly appropriate given your position on the issues I've spoken out on. I posted a comment and you jumped right in to argue with me. Was it whining when I made the first post, or when I defended my position just now? This is all open to debate and I am happy to debate it with you.
I don't remember mocking anyone here over things that offend them, unless you're talking about those who are offended by my opinion. And even then I strive to resist the urge to mock them. Please show me where I mocked someone here who was offended? Or do you mean my use of the term 'social justice warriors'? Or I bet it was when I called out those that were creating online petitions demanding alterations to movies that they didn't like? Or was it when I quoted Clint Eastwood's comment on the 'pussy generation' of those who need 'safe spaces?' Is that what you mean by me mocking others who are offended @hauberk?
This is an open discussion forum. If we cannot discuss what we like and dislike in current comics, what exactly is the point of discussion forums? Is it to brag about our comic collections, compliment the CGS crew, and post silly pictures? There's so much more worth discussing than that. I think what Nick Spencer is doing to Marvel's legacy characters, and actually much of Marvel editorial is doing in general, is terrible. And I will continue to post these examples whenever I think it's appropriate and I find the time. That's not ALL I post, as I celebrate great artwork, tv shows I like, movies, music, youtube vids, the comic solicitations for next month, and on and on -- but I know I can count on you (and @Brack ) always being there to push-back when I have an unpopular opinion that you don't share.
EDIT- And, to add another question-- if there is someone who has read the whole issue, what was your feeling on how that flashback was meant to fit into the rest of the story? Did it work for you, or not, as part of the issue as a whole?
I have read the first 8 issues (of currently 12) and that was enough. The storytelling up through the 8 I have read was not great, so seeing these couple of pages only reaffirms to me that this is just a continuation of the lackluster stuff I have already seen.
Quick show of hands. Who has read more than 8 issues of this? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller? If you answer yes, what is it that has won you over?
Is it a prerequisite that you have to have read the comic book in order to discuss the relative portions you've seen of it? Are consumers not allowed to make a judgment call on a sample anymore? Can one not flip through the pages or read a preview and draw their own conclusions based on what they've already read of the creative team's prior body of work? Do we now need to read the entire arc, series, or single issue in order to comment on these things?
The issue is out now and can be borrowed or bought by anyone. I no longer buy Nick Spencer books, but my wife has on occasion done so on my behalf accidentally.
These seems to be a lot of energy spent second-guessing a comic that can be read, but maybe no one having the discussion *has* read.
Imagine spending that time instead having a discussion about what you actually are reading. Instead of continuing a discussion about why you aren't reading what you aren't reading.
And for what it's worth, I doubt anyone wants to hear my thoughts on what I'm currently reading from Marvel. I'm in the middle of the 1991 run of Namor The Sub-Mariner and the first Marvel Masterworks of The Inhumans.
I don't know if you've offended anyone or not. From a personal standpoint, I've seen it pop up over and over for I'm not sure how long. It goes well back before those recent comments, but they've all been pretty consistent. My point here was that I rather enjoy the irony of you complaining that Cap isn't aligning with your politics and that you repeatedly find it offensive, but at the same time other people should be mocked for needing safe spaces or trigger warnings.
That said, please feel free to hide behind whatever you want.
Also please feel free to disregard actual meatier section of my original post - whether or not it was heavy handed on Spencer's part, I don't believe that a story implying racial profiling would have passed muster in 70/71. Again, I refer you to the Green Lantern issue above and how ground-breaking it was at the time.
Really quite a shame that Denny O'Neil was such a social justice warrior and we won't even talk about the terrible injustice that he did to DItko's vision of the Question.
Alas, I seem to be too niche, too Valiant and too DC to get much conversation going on the things that I'm reading to get any conversation going. I'd happily dive into a conversation on all of the great stuff in Black Science or Lazarus.
I'm a big believer in context as a rule. But I think comics can be broken down and discussed in smaller detail, and good conversations can come from that. I once had a great discussion about a three-panel sequence in Bone. No context beyond those three panels was needed for the purposes of that discussion, because it was about the timing and interconnectedness of those three panels with each other, and not about what it meant for the rest of the story. It’s all about the scope the discussion you want to have.
But to be honest, Marvel makes it easy by promoting polarizing writers like Nick Spencer, David Walker, Dan Slott, et al.
So, let me give you some advice, stop clicking on CBR preview articles for comics you already know you don't like. It'll be better for all of us.
Holy crap, people. Relax.
Take a deep breath. Chill.
Further backstory is introduced ALL THE TIME in comics. And frankly, something like this makes a lot of sense in the world we live in.
It doesn't make you a "Social Justice Warrior" if you're fine with it. It makes you somebody who knows how the world works.
Captain America has been a political book for years. Your personal politics may not necessarily align with those being introduced, but it doesn't change the fact that this isn't the first time it's happened.
And you know what's awesome? If you don't like it, there are other comic books out there you can read instead! I know, right? Crazy concept!
Now can we PLEASE get this thread back on track, and go back to how adorable Moon Girl is and how I wish to squeeze her cheeks?
I can also help with Ms Marvel, Thor, Spider Woman, Silk, and in a couple months Spider Gwen (when the HC in this month's order gets shipped)