It's brand extension. There are also a lot of different Cheez-It varieties in the aisle. There used to be only one. Because it is easier for a manufacturer to sell a new kind of Cheez-It then to try to get the consumer to give something new a try.
But, at the end of the day, if the work is something you enjoy, and the character feels distinct, then the idea that this started off as a derivative falls away. But I'm not surprised that they continue to revive and spin variations of the same brand names. Because when they try something actually new with a new name, it almost always fails.
I loved the Fraction/ Kitson series The Order. New characters. Excellent concept, that fit well with the MU status quo at the time. Went 12 issues. Maybe if they had called the very same book "The Champions", which they wanted to at the time, but they were worried about legal challenges from a RPG company, it may have still not sold. Or maybe it would have attracted enough initial interest to go the distance, or at least get to 25 issues instead of 12.
I would say the same for Simon Dark. A book actually set IN GOTHAM. But didn't have the Bat- prefix, so I think it went 16 issues or something.
I actually can't think of many examples, as trying to launch a new character with a new name instead of a mantle or extension after the prefix is not something tried very much in the last 10-15 years.
But, I don't blame them. As a readership we have trained them to do it this way.
It's an interesting cycle, people clamor for new characters so their characters aren't tweaked. New, diverse characters are created, they don't sell books, so established characters are tweaked to give the diversity...then repeat.
I've already been of the mindset the person who had the identity when I first came to be exposed to him/her is the constant (aside from West as Flash, it's normally the original).
If I was reading Cap because I'm a Cap fan, it's for Rogers. So, when if a spinoff book came out when Walker was Cap, I'd stick to the book with Rogers.
If I was reading Batman when both Batman & Grayson as Batman had books, I'd stick to only the titles with the true Batman.
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but the notion of 2 characters (in some instances more then 2) with the same name never made sense to me. I actually think it undercuts Wilson by having him take on another established (and active) character's handle instead of Falcon.
M
I'd be hard pressed to say that the new Ms. Marvel has not sold books. Especially in trade and digital.
Would you say that title is an excellent the rule?
Let's also remember that there's the whole IP farm thing with Marvel/DC. If you are a creator, there is no incentive to create a new character out of whole cloth and give it to Disney or Warners, when you can take it to Image and keep the rights for yourself.
Deadpool and Squirrel Girl are the most recent new character concepts currently with books and they both pre-date Image by a few months. Nothing brand spanking new created since then has stuck. And really, very little before then and after the mid-seventies stuck either.
Even once promising, relatively recent, concepts like Gravity, Runaways or The Hood got absorbed into the Avengers machine in time.
It often feels like DC & Marvel know a good idea when they see it, but once the originator of that idea is gone, they don't know what to do with it. Unless it was Alan Moore's idea, in which case, milk that sucker dry!
It's brand extension. There are also a lot of different Cheez-It varieties in the aisle. There used to be only one. Because it is easier for a manufacturer to sell a new kind of Cheez-It then to try to get the consumer to give something new a try.
But, at the end of the day, if the work is something you enjoy, and the character feels distinct, then the idea that this started off as a derivative falls away. But I'm not surprised that they continue to revive and spin variations of the same brand names. Because when they try something actually new with a new name, it almost always fails.
I loved the Fraction/ Kitson series The Order. New characters. Excellent concept, that fit well with the MU status quo at the time. Went 12 issues. Maybe if they had called the very same book "The Champions", which they wanted to at the time, but they were worried about legal challenges from a RPG company, it may have still not sold. Or maybe it would have attracted enough initial interest to go the distance, or at least get to 25 issues instead of 12.
I would say the same for Simon Dark. A book actually set IN GOTHAM. But didn't have the Bat- prefix, so I think it went 16 issues or something.
I actually can't think of many examples, as trying to launch a new character with a new name instead of a mantle or extension after the prefix is not something tried very much in the last 10-15 years.
But, I don't blame them. As a readership we have trained them to do it this way.
It's an interesting cycle, people clamor for new characters so their characters aren't tweaked. New, diverse characters are created, they don't sell books, so established characters are tweaked to give the diversity...then repeat.
I've already been of the mindset the person who had the identity when I first came to be exposed to him/her is the constant (aside from West as Flash, it's normally the original).
If I was reading Cap because I'm a Cap fan, it's for Rogers. So, when if a spinoff book came out when Walker was Cap, I'd stick to the book with Rogers.
If I was reading Batman when both Batman & Grayson as Batman had books, I'd stick to only the titles with the true Batman.
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but the notion of 2 characters (in some instances more then 2) with the same name never made sense to me. I actually think it undercuts Wilson by having him take on another established (and active) character's handle instead of Falcon.
M
I'd be hard pressed to say that the new Ms. Marvel has not sold books. Especially in trade and digital.
Would you say that title is an excellent the rule?
M
No. Not given how well Harley Quinn, Batgirl, and some other female-led titles have sold for DC, Spider-Gwen, Silk, and some other female-led titles have sold for Marvel. Black Panther and Gwenpool had very big numbers for their #1s, we'll see if those stick. But I would say Ms. Marvel is not an exception. It is one of several titles that show that, as @nweathington said, there are likely some new audiences being brought in by certain books (on top of existing readers). That there is an interest there, and that character that could be described as diverse can sell books. And that is especially the case when you look at trade and the limited digital charts we see.
Marvel and DC both cannibalize themselves repeatedly. Even with Ms Marvel, the character took on the mantle of a previous character. With Ms Marvel and even Captain Marvel sometimes it works, but other times it's absurd, as @Matt points out with the Falcon.
Why isn't there a Falcon series? He's firmly established in the MCU, but Marvel has strangely chosen a different path for reasons all their own and in the process have effectively watered down the Captain America brand by not allowing the Falcon to be heralded on his own merit.
Marvel and DC both cannibalize themselves repeatedly. Even with Ms Marvel, the character took on the mantle of a previous character. With Ms Marvel and even Captain Marvel sometimes it works, but other times it's absurd, as @Matt points out with the Falcon.
Why isn't there a Falcon series? He's firmly established in the MCU, but Marvel has strangely chosen a different path for reasons all their own and in the process have effectively watered down the Captain America brand by not allowing the Falcon to be heralded on his own merit.
I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
= I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Yes, I see your point, and I think your political comparison is apt. But Falcon was his own man and a great character before. Isn't it too bad the book's now become not much more than another political platform for Nick Spencer to attack those he disagrees with? It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge, and that’s that. Pretending it’s not there, or that what’s written is impartial, totally a-political, and definitely not utterly vilifying the opposing view, is dishonest or worse, dumb. Suffice to say superhero comic books maybe aren’t the best medium for solving federal overreach and its subsequent cronyism, but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
= I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Yes, I see your point, and I think your political comparison is apt. But Falcon was his own man and a great character before. Isn't it too bad the book's now become not much more than another political platform for Nick Spencer to attack those he disagrees with? It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge, and that’s that. Pretending it’s not there, or that what’s written is impartial, totally a-political, and definitely not utterly vilifying the opposing view, is dishonest or worse, dumb. Suffice to say superhero comic books maybe aren’t the best medium for solving federal overreach and its subsequent cronyism, but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
= I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Yes, I see your point, and I think your political comparison is apt. But Falcon was his own man and a great character before. Isn't it too bad the book's now become not much more than another political platform for Nick Spencer to attack those he disagrees with? It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge, and that’s that. Pretending it’s not there, or that what’s written is impartial, totally a-political, and definitely not utterly vilifying the opposing view, is dishonest or worse, dumb. Suffice to say superhero comic books maybe aren’t the best medium for solving federal overreach and its subsequent cronyism, but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
Wasn't the officer in MN a minority officer?!
He's my issue with that topic, the narrative on that issue is being dictated on narrow minded perception instead of facts. If Spencer is using a book for a platform like that, I'm glad I'm not reading it.
I've been thinking about Rhodey as Iron Man vs Wilson as Cap. I think Rhodey worked well because he was a supporting "civilian" cast member that got the identity. Wilson had his own identity, then was handed a bigger one. Once he goes back to Falcon, eont it seem like a step back?
= I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Yes, I see your point, and I think your political comparison is apt. But Falcon was his own man and a great character before. Isn't it too bad the book's now become not much more than another political platform for Nick Spencer to attack those he disagrees with? It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge, and that’s that. Pretending it’s not there, or that what’s written is impartial, totally a-political, and definitely not utterly vilifying the opposing view, is dishonest or worse, dumb. Suffice to say superhero comic books maybe aren’t the best medium for solving federal overreach and its subsequent cronyism, but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
Wasn't the officer in MN a minority officer?!
He's my issue with that topic, the narrative on that issue is being dictated on narrow minded perception instead of facts. If Spencer is using a book for a platform like that, I'm glad I'm not reading it.
I've been thinking about Rhodey as Iron Man vs Wilson as Cap. I think Rhodey worked well because he was a supporting "civilian" cast member that got the identity. Wilson had his own identity, then was handed a bigger one. Once he goes back to Falcon, eont it seem like a step back?
M
I don't think it was a step back when, after Bruce returned, Dick went back to his own identity. The fact that Dick had been Batman is still true*. And it makes it clear he could/should(?) be again someday.
*At least in publication history. I have no idea if it is still in continuity but is true in my mind as a longtime reader.
Marvel and DC both cannibalize themselves repeatedly. Even with Ms Marvel, the character took on the mantle of a previous character. With Ms Marvel and even Captain Marvel sometimes it works, but other times it's absurd, as @Matt points out with the Falcon.
Why isn't there a Falcon series? He's firmly established in the MCU, but Marvel has strangely chosen a different path for reasons all their own and in the process have effectively watered down the Captain America brand by not allowing the Falcon to be heralded on his own merit.
I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Here's kinda my issue with that whole notion (in general, beyond comic books), the ethnicity aspect shouldn't even be an aspect.
I can't speak for everyone, but having a minority Captain America is meaningless to me. It's more about another establish hero taking on the mantle...only to later share the mantle with the original. Of course the new character has to have shield because that'll give him the gravitas of the character!
It's brand extension. There are also a lot of different Cheez-It varieties in the aisle. There used to be only one. Because it is easier for a manufacturer to sell a new kind of Cheez-It then to try to get the consumer to give something new a try.
But, at the end of the day, if the work is something you enjoy, and the character feels distinct, then the idea that this started off as a derivative falls away. But I'm not surprised that they continue to revive and spin variations of the same brand names. Because when they try something actually new with a new name, it almost always fails.
I loved the Fraction/ Kitson series The Order. New characters. Excellent concept, that fit well with the MU status quo at the time. Went 12 issues. Maybe if they had called the very same book "The Champions", which they wanted to at the time, but they were worried about legal challenges from a RPG company, it may have still not sold. Or maybe it would have attracted enough initial interest to go the distance, or at least get to 25 issues instead of 12.
I would say the same for Simon Dark. A book actually set IN GOTHAM. But didn't have the Bat- prefix, so I think it went 16 issues or something.
I actually can't think of many examples, as trying to launch a new character with a new name instead of a mantle or extension after the prefix is not something tried very much in the last 10-15 years.
But, I don't blame them. As a readership we have trained them to do it this way.
It's an interesting cycle, people clamor for new characters so their characters aren't tweaked. New, diverse characters are created, they don't sell books, so established characters are tweaked to give the diversity...then repeat.
I've already been of the mindset the person who had the identity when I first came to be exposed to him/her is the constant (aside from West as Flash, it's normally the original).
If I was reading Cap because I'm a Cap fan, it's for Rogers. So, when if a spinoff book came out when Walker was Cap, I'd stick to the book with Rogers.
If I was reading Batman when both Batman & Grayson as Batman had books, I'd stick to only the titles with the true Batman.
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but the notion of 2 characters (in some instances more then 2) with the same name never made sense to me. I actually think it undercuts Wilson by having him take on another established (and active) character's handle instead of Falcon.
M
I'd be hard pressed to say that the new Ms. Marvel has not sold books. Especially in trade and digital.
Would you say that title is an excellent the rule?
M
No. Not given how well Harley Quinn, Batgirl, and some other female-led titles have sold for DC, Spider-Gwen, Silk, and some other female-led titles have sold for Marvel. Black Panther and Gwenpool had very big numbers for their #1s, we'll see if those stick. But I would say Ms. Marvel is not an exception. It is one of several titles that show that, as @nweathington said, there are likely some new audiences being brought in by certain books (on top of existing readers). That there is an interest there, and that character that could be described as diverse can sell books. And that is especially the case when you look at trade and the limited digital charts we see.
I think we had this discussion about Ms Marvel. I can't fathom picking up a book because the lead character shares beliefs, orientation, or some physical attributes with me, anymore then I fathom not picking up a book where I share zero characteristics with the lead.
Granted, I'm as vanilla as can be (very much as designed), so it's probably easy for me to say that. Then again, I can say it's never been apart of my decision making process.
It's brand extension. There are also a lot of different Cheez-It varieties in the aisle. There used to be only one. Because it is easier for a manufacturer to sell a new kind of Cheez-It then to try to get the consumer to give something new a try.
But, at the end of the day, if the work is something you enjoy, and the character feels distinct, then the idea that this started off as a derivative falls away. But I'm not surprised that they continue to revive and spin variations of the same brand names. Because when they try something actually new with a new name, it almost always fails.
I loved the Fraction/ Kitson series The Order. New characters. Excellent concept, that fit well with the MU status quo at the time. Went 12 issues. Maybe if they had called the very same book "The Champions", which they wanted to at the time, but they were worried about legal challenges from a RPG company, it may have still not sold. Or maybe it would have attracted enough initial interest to go the distance, or at least get to 25 issues instead of 12.
I would say the same for Simon Dark. A book actually set IN GOTHAM. But didn't have the Bat- prefix, so I think it went 16 issues or something.
I actually can't think of many examples, as trying to launch a new character with a new name instead of a mantle or extension after the prefix is not something tried very much in the last 10-15 years.
But, I don't blame them. As a readership we have trained them to do it this way.
It's an interesting cycle, people clamor for new characters so their characters aren't tweaked. New, diverse characters are created, they don't sell books, so established characters are tweaked to give the diversity...then repeat.
I've already been of the mindset the person who had the identity when I first came to be exposed to him/her is the constant (aside from West as Flash, it's normally the original).
If I was reading Cap because I'm a Cap fan, it's for Rogers. So, when if a spinoff book came out when Walker was Cap, I'd stick to the book with Rogers.
If I was reading Batman when both Batman & Grayson as Batman had books, I'd stick to only the titles with the true Batman.
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but the notion of 2 characters (in some instances more then 2) with the same name never made sense to me. I actually think it undercuts Wilson by having him take on another established (and active) character's handle instead of Falcon.
M
I'd be hard pressed to say that the new Ms. Marvel has not sold books. Especially in trade and digital.
Would you say that title is an excellent the rule?
M
No. Not given how well Harley Quinn, Batgirl, and some other female-led titles have sold for DC, Spider-Gwen, Silk, and some other female-led titles have sold for Marvel. Black Panther and Gwenpool had very big numbers for their #1s, we'll see if those stick. But I would say Ms. Marvel is not an exception. It is one of several titles that show that, as @nweathington said, there are likely some new audiences being brought in by certain books (on top of existing readers). That there is an interest there, and that character that could be described as diverse can sell books. And that is especially the case when you look at trade and the limited digital charts we see.
I think we had this discussion about Ms Marvel. I can't fathom picking up a book because the lead character shares beliefs, orientation, or some physical attributes with me, anymore then I fathom not picking up a book where I share zero characteristics with the lead.
Granted, I'm as vanilla as can be (very much as designed), so it's probably easy for me to say that. Then again, I can say it's never been apart of my decision making process.
M
And that's totally fine. And fair. And I would never suggest you choose your buying a different way. I will agree that I don't, at least consciously, ever think I am picking books for that reason either. Maybe Saga is an exception. I mean, I was already in because it was BKV but I can remember being excited that it was a book about a committed couple with a baby, because that was directly reflecting where my life was at. And I didn't have many comics that represented that.
Im sure you know, though, and don't need me to tell you, though, that it can be a different thing when you grow up, as you and I did, drowning in choices when it came to seeing ourselves in our entertainment and escapism, from growing up (or being presently young) and not having that be the case. So, even if that is the sole reason someone gives a certain character a try, I would it begrudge them that choice. Even if it is hard for me, from my own experience, to relate it it. At the end of the day, if someone is buying and reading a comic, then I see that as net positive, no matter what tipped their decision making into "buy".
I've been thinking about Rhodey as Iron Man vs Wilson as Cap. I think Rhodey worked well because he was a supporting "civilian" cast member that got the identity. Wilson had his own identity, then was handed a bigger one. Once he goes back to Falcon, eont it seem like a step back?
I think both work for the reason that, in both cases, the man stepping into the role was deeply trusted by the man stepping out of the role.
= I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Yes, I see your point, and I think your political comparison is apt. But Falcon was his own man and a great character before. Isn't it too bad the book's now become not much more than another political platform for Nick Spencer to attack those he disagrees with? It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge, and that’s that. Pretending it’s not there, or that what’s written is impartial, totally a-political, and definitely not utterly vilifying the opposing view, is dishonest or worse, dumb. Suffice to say superhero comic books maybe aren’t the best medium for solving federal overreach and its subsequent cronyism, but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
Wasn't the officer in MN a minority officer?!
He's my issue with that topic, the narrative on that issue is being dictated on narrow minded perception instead of facts. If Spencer is using a book for a platform like that, I'm glad I'm not reading it.
I've been thinking about Rhodey as Iron Man vs Wilson as Cap. I think Rhodey worked well because he was a supporting "civilian" cast member that got the identity. Wilson had his own identity, then was handed a bigger one. Once he goes back to Falcon, eont it seem like a step back?
M
I don't think it was a step back when, after Bruce returned, Dick went back to his own identity. The fact that Dick had been Batman is still true*. And it makes it clear he could/should(?) be again someday.
*At least in publication history. I have no idea if it is still in continuity but is true in my mind as a longtime reader.
My primary reason for disliking that avenue was it was clearly the safe route. I think the more interesting avenue would've been having Todd fill the role.
Since Grayson quit as Robin, he's been trying to escape the shadow of his mentor...only for him to fall right back into it. It was why Batman noted to not choosing him during the Knightfall event. At least in the Prodigal storyline it was meant to be temporary.
= I think Captain America is a special case. Obviously having a black Captain America is by no means on the same level as having a black POTUS, but it’s as close as superhero comics can come. There’s is symbolism there that a Falcon series simply wouldn’t have.
Yes, I see your point, and I think your political comparison is apt. But Falcon was his own man and a great character before. Isn't it too bad the book's now become not much more than another political platform for Nick Spencer to attack those he disagrees with? It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge, and that’s that. Pretending it’s not there, or that what’s written is impartial, totally a-political, and definitely not utterly vilifying the opposing view, is dishonest or worse, dumb. Suffice to say superhero comic books maybe aren’t the best medium for solving federal overreach and its subsequent cronyism, but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
Wasn't the officer in MN a minority officer?!
He's my issue with that topic, the narrative on that issue is being dictated on narrow minded perception instead of facts. If Spencer is using a book for a platform like that, I'm glad I'm not reading it.
I've been thinking about Rhodey as Iron Man vs Wilson as Cap. I think Rhodey worked well because he was a supporting "civilian" cast member that got the identity. Wilson had his own identity, then was handed a bigger one. Once he goes back to Falcon, eont it seem like a step back?
M
I don't think it was a step back when, after Bruce returned, Dick went back to his own identity. The fact that Dick had been Batman is still true*. And it makes it clear he could/should(?) be again someday.
*At least in publication history. I have no idea if it is still in continuity but is true in my mind as a longtime reader.
My primary reason for disliking that avenue was it was clearly the safe route. I think the more interesting avenue would've been having Todd fill the role.
Since Grayson quit as Robin, he's been trying to escape the shadow of his mentor...only for him to fall right back into it. It was why Batman noted to not choosing him during the Knightfall event. At least in the Prodigal storyline it was meant to be temporary.
M
For me, in the Morrison story, it didn't feel like Dick became Batman because he was in his mentors shadow. Rather, Dick believed that Gotham needed a Batman and Robin. So he and Damien did that. Out of respect for Bruce, and for Gotham. It worked for me at the time when I read it, and did not weaken Dick as a character, for me.
I think that is an important caveat to the qualitative judgments you were making of what does or doesn't work in a comic, whether or not the writing of the villains is good, or just meant to be political, or whether or not a kid should read it. That these judgments of the issue are based on what others have said about it, a description in a catalog, and some excerpts.
I mean, hey, you are entitled to have whatever opinion and go on and on if you want about comics you have not read, and no one is forcing you to read them just to have an opinion on them.
I will just take into account, that your opinion on the most recent Nick Spencer issues are being based on what is being said about a comic, rather than from your own experience of it, when you are giving that opinion. That it is a comment based on commentary. Rather than one of the readers talking.
Hmm, I notice you don't take @Matt to task for commenting about comic trends found in books he hasn't read. Interesting. For your information, I read the series at first But since then, I have seen no indication in the reviews, news, or previews that anything has changed since, so take my opinion however you like David. And if you agree with the writer's political viewpoint, in my opinion, you may even enjoy the series a little bit more.
Just like a restaurant where the service was bad along with the food. Don't need to keep going back to see if anything has changed, I can read the reviews.
Hmm, I notice you don't take @Matt to task for commenting about comic trends found in books he hasn't read. Interesting. For your information, I read the series at first But since then, I have seen no indication in the reviews, news, or previews that anything has changed since, so take my opinion however you like David. And if you agree with the writer's political viewpoint, in my opinion, you may even enjoy the series a little bit more.
Just like a restaurant where the service was bad along with the food. Don't need to keep going back to see if anything has changed, I can read the reviews.
but I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest.
There is a difference between calling out a trend, and calling out a specific issue and saying what it is "all about" and the writer by name. Saying what an issue you haven't read is "all about" is a little different than talking trends.
By the way, for what it is worth, and take this with the caveat that I have not truly read it, either, but I was curious if the page you posted was from a review of the issue with a plot synopsis, and a search for the image led me to a site that had all the pages posted from that issue (#10) and the most recent issue (#11).
I don't usually click around sites like that (nor do I plan on making that a habit), and this does not count as actual reading, so I won't count myself as someone now talking about the quality of the issue or the series, but at least to judge from looking through the pages from CASW #10 and #11, the Americops don't kill anyone. And all of the scrolling news headlines and talk about them don't mention a single killing, or person shot. There are the people being shot at behind the car in the page you posted, but I think those are the only shots they fire across two issues, and they don't kill anyone.
Also, for what it is worth, they are not actually police officers. As is made clear on the page you posted, they are privatized. Basically it is like when Blackwater had security contractors on the ground in New Orleans after Katrina. They are not actual officers. Who knows, by the end of this story arc, the actual police may be a part of the solution. But these characters seem to be like the ED-209 from Robocop. Which is to say-- private, with corporate money behind them.
There is talk of excessive, abusive policing and broken bones, alleged profiling, people saying "they sent my cousin to the hospital" and lines like "if this doesn't stop someone is going to get killed!" But in the most recent issue, the Americops do not kill anyone, or even fire a single shot. When someone throws a brick that hits off the helmet of one of the Americops they don't shoot back, even though some of them are standing around with shotguns. When Rage and a group he has gathered specifically to attack a group of Americops starts a fight, they fight with their batons, no shots fired.
Am I saying that Spencer's writing is not politically motivated? No. I can't say that. I would need to read a lot more of it.
But I only bring this up to say that, if what you have heard and read in reviews is that, "the latest issue is all about racist white cops killing minorities" then you've heard wrong. As that is not at all what happens in the issue.
So saying things like "It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge" or "I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest." Those opinions are based on the comic book in your head. Which is not actually the one Spencer and others made and Marvel published.
That is a little more specific than talking trends. Or saying, 'hey, I hear some people had a terrible meal at that restaurant once'. The stuff you heard happened in the comic didn't happen. And it is not even a small exaggeration of what happened in the comic.
So, again, for me at least, if you want to call out and judge the quality of an issue, and the writer behind it, reading the issue can make a big difference in informing the discussion. And not misinforming it.
And I am sure that @Matt can attest to the fact that in the past, I have certainly asked him to clarify if he has read it or whether he is making a judgment from recaps. (Though he usually is the first to make the point that he hasn't yet read/seen a thing when he talks about it.) So if you haven't seen me "call him out" it is because he is usually calling himself out.
Hmm, I notice you don't take @Matt to task for commenting about comic trends found in books he hasn't read. Interesting. For your information, I read the series at first But since then, I have seen no indication in the reviews, news, or previews that anything has changed since, so take my opinion however you like David. And if you agree with the writer's political viewpoint, in my opinion, you may even enjoy the series a little bit more.
Just like a restaurant where the service was bad along with the food. Don't need to keep going back to see if anything has changed, I can read the reviews.
can you give an example? I've tried to limit my input on what I know instead of what I believe to be fact. I don't think I've tried to claim I've read something I haven't.
I don't think, for example, I need to read Cap/Wilson to disagree with taking an established character & make him another established character, any more then I needed to see BvS:DoJ to state "Batman shouldn't be killing or using gun. Period".
Oh I see, David - sending minorities to the hospital is much more acceptable police behavior. Sorry my semantics weren't 100% accuarate, but don't conflate that to mean that the other pull-quote I believe is 100% accurate when applied to his treatment of Red Skull of late:
"It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge"
Oh I see, David - sending minorities to the hospital is much more acceptable police behavior. Sorry my semantics weren't 100% accuarate, but don't conflate that to mean that the other pull-quote I believe is 100% accurate when applied to his treatment of Red Skull of late:
"It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge"
Well, you can call it semantics if you want, but I would say the description "the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities" gets every fact wrong. So, yes. It is not 100% accurate. The issue is about a private security force, not cops, beating people up and not killing them, and, yes, they are accused of racial profiling by the public, but whether or not they are actually racist (none of them say or do anything on panel that proves a racist motivation), or just being deployed in communities of color by a greedy and opportunistic corporation is yet to be made clear.
Are they clearly the bad guys, doing unacceptable wrong things, and Captain America is going to stop them in the stories, and probably have to keep Rage from killing them, because superhero story? Yes. And is the story looking to resonate with current issues? Sure.
But they are not racist cops killing minorities because they aren't the cops- so when they are eventually defeated by Captain America in this story, it will not be Cap fighting the cops- their personal motivations regarding race is unclear; and there is no killing (at least, not yet, could be in the August issue).
You believe your take on Spencer's treatment on Red Skull of late is 100% accurate? Okay. But you will understand if I ask, how much of it have you read?
Anybody else reading Patsy Walker, A.K.A. Hellcat? I never hear anyone talking about the book. Personally I like it, but I don’t love it. Money is getting tighter, and I unfortunately think I’m going to have to drop it.
I haven't read Hellcat. But a book I am enjoying that I don't think I have spent much time talking about is Dr. Strange from Aaron and Bachalo. I've never read much Dr. Strange in solo titles, but I knew I would try this with that creative team and I'm glad I did. The chaos monster-and-demon filled business of the unseen magical world is perfect for Bachalo. And I feel like he and Aaron strike a nice balance of Strange as someone who is clearly powerful and experienced, but not ponderous or boring. I think the librarian character they added does a nice job in scenes with him of what it would be like to be around him, and that he has a sort of harried (as there is always some magical crisis going on) brilliant, and dangerous to be around (though not by his own design).
I also like the way the book has fleshed out the current state of magical characters in the MU. (Even though it was a jerk move for them to put one chapter of the current Dr. Strange story in that anthology, I have to say, all the other stories in the anthology were pretty good, and had characters I hope will show up more in the main book. It was still a jerk move, though.)
I'm a little behind on Dr. Strange. I've read up to the anthology issue. The series has been pretty darn good, but after that first issue, I was looking for more of that quirky, off-kilter tone, and instead it’s been rather doom-and-gloomy. I’m hoping it gets back to the quirkiness once the dust settles from this first arc.
I'm a little behind on Dr. Strange. I've read up to the anthology issue. The series has been pretty darn good, but after that first issue, I was looking for more of that quirky, off-kilter tone, and instead it’s been rather doom-and-gloomy. I’m hoping it gets back to the quirkiness once the dust settles from this first arc.
Yeah, I can see that. There is definitely a very high-stakes, 'we are up against the end of everything!' feel. I will say, though, that even though the last issue or two (I forget how many have been since the anthology so I will be vague) have had a moment of tragic sacrifice, played that way, there is also a plotline about Strange trying to find every single magic item he can get his hands on to get some extra juice from it that, I thought, had some lightness and fun to it. (Even if the context is, 'So that we can fight back against the END OF EVERYTHING!')
Still, though, even at its darkest, I would say against most of Aaron's other work this is positively upbeat.
(Though it is similar in tone to his prior books with Bachalo, like Wolverine & The X-Men, and I think there was another volume like that, that tended to be lighter than the other things he does)
But they are not racist cops killing minorities because they aren't the cops- so when they are eventually defeated by Captain America in this story, it will not be Cap fighting the cops- their personal motivations regarding race is unclear; and there is no killing (at least, not yet, could be in the August issue).
You believe your take on Spencer's treatment on Red Skull of late is 100% accurate? Okay. But you will understand if I ask, how much of it have you read?
Oh yes, not cops, "AmeriCops". VERY subtle. Thank you for all of the thoughtful corrections. I was WAY off.
And as far as his take on Red Skull, you certainly must disagree that my opinion is accurate and merited. Shall I send you a link to my comicbookdb account to see which issues I've acquired and read? Can I submit a few more panels that made it to the press? Or will you just take my word for it?
Anybody else reading Patsy Walker, A.K.A. Hellcat? I never hear anyone talking about the book. Personally I like it, but I don’t love it. Money is getting tighter, and I unfortunately think I’m going to have to drop it.
That's too bad, Eric. Marvel / Disney could sure use your support right now.
Now remember what we've learned: no commenting or speculating on anything you hear about Patsy Walker aka Hellcat after you drop the book, not even in the comics press, unless it's completely positive and/or vague and 100% accurate of course.
But they are not racist cops killing minorities because they aren't the cops- so when they are eventually defeated by Captain America in this story, it will not be Cap fighting the cops- their personal motivations regarding race is unclear; and there is no killing (at least, not yet, could be in the August issue).
You believe your take on Spencer's treatment on Red Skull of late is 100% accurate? Okay. But you will understand if I ask, how much of it have you read?
Oh yes, not cops, "AmeriCops". VERY subtle. Thank you for all of the thoughtful corrections. I was WAY off.
And as far as his take on Red Skull, you certainly must disagree that my opinion is accurate and merited. Shall I send you a link to my comicbookdb account to see which issues I've acquired and read? Can I submit a few more panels that made it to the press? Or will you just take my word for it?
I think there is a big difference between a private police force working for a corporation and actual police. Just like I believe there is a big difference between the US military and Blackwater contractors. (And a big difference between hurting someone and killing them).
If you disagree, so be it. But, if it helps, in the story, "AmeriCops" are not "the cops". Though a private company is trying to sell them to cities to be the cops. I would guess that by the end of the story, we will be reminded why it is better to have the cops than these AmeriCops. Just like at the end of RoboCop they decided the ED-209s or even a whole force of RoboCops were not the way to go, even though OmniCorp was hoping to get rich.
I can't agree or disagree with whether your opinion about how Spencer writes the Red Skull of late is accurate or merited because I haven't read those issues. I have seen the couple of panels that made the rounds and everybody was up in arms about, but I haven't read the current stories, so I can't judge it. It sounds like maybe you haven't either, so we can probably save some time and just move on.
Anybody else reading Patsy Walker, A.K.A. Hellcat? I never hear anyone talking about the book. Personally I like it, but I don’t love it. Money is getting tighter, and I unfortunately think I’m going to have to drop it.
That's too bad, Eric. Marvel / Disney could sure use your support right now.
I was hoping it would be the perfect replacement for Soule/Pulido’s She-Hulk series, and there are some of those elements in the story, but it’s just not up to that level. I'd give it a B- overall. But I’ve got to trim somewhere.
Comments
M
Deadpool and Squirrel Girl are the most recent new character concepts currently with books and they both pre-date Image by a few months. Nothing brand spanking new created since then has stuck. And really, very little before then and after the mid-seventies stuck either.
Even once promising, relatively recent, concepts like Gravity, Runaways or The Hood got absorbed into the Avengers machine in time.
It often feels like DC & Marvel know a good idea when they see it, but once the originator of that idea is gone, they don't know what to do with it. Unless it was Alan Moore's idea, in which case, milk that sucker dry!
Why isn't there a Falcon series? He's firmly established in the MCU, but Marvel has strangely chosen a different path for reasons all their own and in the process have effectively watered down the Captain America brand by not allowing the Falcon to be heralded on his own merit.
He's my issue with that topic, the narrative on that issue is being dictated on narrow minded perception instead of facts. If Spencer is using a book for a platform like that, I'm glad I'm not reading it.
I've been thinking about Rhodey as Iron Man vs Wilson as Cap. I think Rhodey worked well because he was a supporting "civilian" cast member that got the identity. Wilson had his own identity, then was handed a bigger one. Once he goes back to Falcon, eont it seem like a step back?
M
*At least in publication history. I have no idea if it is still in continuity but is true in my mind as a longtime reader.
I can't speak for everyone, but having a minority Captain America is meaningless to me. It's more about another establish hero taking on the mantle...only to later share the mantle with the original. Of course the new character has to have shield because that'll give him the gravitas of the character!
M
Granted, I'm as vanilla as can be (very much as designed), so it's probably easy for me to say that. Then again, I can say it's never been apart of my decision making process.
M
Im sure you know, though, and don't need me to tell you, though, that it can be a different thing when you grow up, as you and I did, drowning in choices when it came to seeing ourselves in our entertainment and escapism, from growing up (or being presently young) and not having that be the case. So, even if that is the sole reason someone gives a certain character a try, I would it begrudge them that choice. Even if it is hard for me, from my own experience, to relate it it. At the end of the day, if someone is buying and reading a comic, then I see that as net positive, no matter what tipped their decision making into "buy".
Since Grayson quit as Robin, he's been trying to escape the shadow of his mentor...only for him to fall right back into it. It was why Batman noted to not choosing him during the Knightfall event. At least in the Prodigal storyline it was meant to be temporary.
M
I think that is an important caveat to the qualitative judgments you were making of what does or doesn't work in a comic, whether or not the writing of the villains is good, or just meant to be political, or whether or not a kid should read it. That these judgments of the issue are based on what others have said about it, a description in a catalog, and some excerpts.
I mean, hey, you are entitled to have whatever opinion and go on and on if you want about comics you have not read, and no one is forcing you to read them just to have an opinion on them.
I will just take into account, that your opinion on the most recent Nick Spencer issues are being based on what is being said about a comic, rather than from your own experience of it, when you are giving that opinion. That it is a comment based on commentary. Rather than one of the readers talking.
Just like a restaurant where the service was bad along with the food. Don't need to keep going back to see if anything has changed, I can read the reviews.
By the way, for what it is worth, and take this with the caveat that I have not truly read it, either, but I was curious if the page you posted was from a review of the issue with a plot synopsis, and a search for the image led me to a site that had all the pages posted from that issue (#10) and the most recent issue (#11).
I don't usually click around sites like that (nor do I plan on making that a habit), and this does not count as actual reading, so I won't count myself as someone now talking about the quality of the issue or the series, but at least to judge from looking through the pages from CASW #10 and #11, the Americops don't kill anyone. And all of the scrolling news headlines and talk about them don't mention a single killing, or person shot. There are the people being shot at behind the car in the page you posted, but I think those are the only shots they fire across two issues, and they don't kill anyone.
Also, for what it is worth, they are not actually police officers. As is made clear on the page you posted, they are privatized. Basically it is like when Blackwater had security contractors on the ground in New Orleans after Katrina. They are not actual officers. Who knows, by the end of this story arc, the actual police may be a part of the solution. But these characters seem to be like the ED-209 from Robocop. Which is to say-- private, with corporate money behind them.
There is talk of excessive, abusive policing and broken bones, alleged profiling, people saying "they sent my cousin to the hospital" and lines like "if this doesn't stop someone is going to get killed!" But in the most recent issue, the Americops do not kill anyone, or even fire a single shot. When someone throws a brick that hits off the helmet of one of the Americops they don't shoot back, even though some of them are standing around with shotguns. When Rage and a group he has gathered specifically to attack a group of Americops starts a fight, they fight with their batons, no shots fired.
Am I saying that Spencer's writing is not politically motivated? No. I can't say that. I would need to read a lot more of it.
But I only bring this up to say that, if what you have heard and read in reviews is that, "the latest issue is all about racist white cops killing minorities" then you've heard wrong. As that is not at all what happens in the issue.
So saying things like "It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge" or "I wouldn't want any kids reading those books with topics like the latest issue which is all about racist white cops killing minorities. "Americops" I think they're called. Sheesh, Nick, give it a rest." Those opinions are based on the comic book in your head. Which is not actually the one Spencer and others made and Marvel published.
That is a little more specific than talking trends. Or saying, 'hey, I hear some people had a terrible meal at that restaurant once'. The stuff you heard happened in the comic didn't happen. And it is not even a small exaggeration of what happened in the comic.
So, again, for me at least, if you want to call out and judge the quality of an issue, and the writer behind it, reading the issue can make a big difference in informing the discussion. And not misinforming it.
And I am sure that @Matt can attest to the fact that in the past, I have certainly asked him to clarify if he has read it or whether he is making a judgment from recaps. (Though he usually is the first to make the point that he hasn't yet read/seen a thing when he talks about it.) So if you haven't seen me "call him out" it is because he is usually calling himself out.
I don't think, for example, I need to read Cap/Wilson to disagree with taking an established character & make him another established character, any more then I needed to see BvS:DoJ to state "Batman shouldn't be killing or using gun. Period".
M
"It seems all of the villains Nick can seem to write are espousing a lot of conservative thought and right-wing buzzwords, but given a murderous edge"
Are they clearly the bad guys, doing unacceptable wrong things, and Captain America is going to stop them in the stories, and probably have to keep Rage from killing them, because superhero story? Yes. And is the story looking to resonate with current issues? Sure.
But they are not racist cops killing minorities because they aren't the cops- so when they are eventually defeated by Captain America in this story, it will not be Cap fighting the cops- their personal motivations regarding race is unclear; and there is no killing (at least, not yet, could be in the August issue).
You believe your take on Spencer's treatment on Red Skull of late is 100% accurate? Okay. But you will understand if I ask, how much of it have you read?
I also like the way the book has fleshed out the current state of magical characters in the MU. (Even though it was a jerk move for them to put one chapter of the current Dr. Strange story in that anthology, I have to say, all the other stories in the anthology were pretty good, and had characters I hope will show up more in the main book. It was still a jerk move, though.)
Still, though, even at its darkest, I would say against most of Aaron's other work this is positively upbeat.
(Though it is similar in tone to his prior books with Bachalo, like Wolverine & The X-Men, and I think there was another volume like that, that tended to be lighter than the other things he does)
And as far as his take on Red Skull, you certainly must disagree that my opinion is accurate and merited. Shall I send you a link to my comicbookdb account to see which issues I've acquired and read? Can I submit a few more panels that made it to the press? Or will you just take my word for it?
Now remember what we've learned: no commenting or speculating on anything you hear about Patsy Walker aka Hellcat after you drop the book, not even in the comics press, unless it's completely positive and/or vague and 100% accurate of course.
If you disagree, so be it. But, if it helps, in the story, "AmeriCops" are not "the cops". Though a private company is trying to sell them to cities to be the cops. I would guess that by the end of the story, we will be reminded why it is better to have the cops than these AmeriCops. Just like at the end of RoboCop they decided the ED-209s or even a whole force of RoboCops were not the way to go, even though OmniCorp was hoping to get rich.
I can't agree or disagree with whether your opinion about how Spencer writes the Red Skull of late is accurate or merited because I haven't read those issues. I have seen the couple of panels that made the rounds and everybody was up in arms about, but I haven't read the current stories, so I can't judge it. It sounds like maybe you haven't either, so we can probably save some time and just move on.