I thought the movie was brilliant. Loved it. I don't mind all of the nods to Episode IV and I thought it was kind of brilliant. The one thing you didn't get in this movie though was an ending like "A New Hope". It wasn't quite "Empire Strikes Back" but it wasn't as celebratory as Episodes IV or VI.
I thought the characters were amazing. I know people have been talking about how cool Rey was as well as Finn. I thought Poe was very awesome. I loved how kept his sarcastic nature with Kylo at the beginning of the movie. "Who talks first? Do you talk first?" It was great. I also loved him in his element which was inside the cockpit of the X-Wing. Very good stuff.
I enjoyed the humor. I don't know why but when Han used Chewie's bowcaster and realized how good it was, I just found it hysterical. I laughed. The scene with BB-8 and Finn was outstanding and very funny. I kind of needed to see it again because I giggled so much at the one particular scene. I thought the humor was overall very good. I liked it and I wouldn't have changed anything about it.
I loved Kylo Ren. I loved his saber which I did a little researching and found out that the reason his lightsaber looks so unstable is because the Kaiburr crystal used in his lightsaber is actually cracked and that the side blades are exhausts so the saber doesn't overload and blow up. I listened to the latest episode of Rebel Force Radio and they had on Sam Witwer on the show. He mentioned how he and Adam Driver both when to Juilliard and there is actually an acting class where they wear masks in order to teach the students how to emote with various masks on. It was interesting to hear and I can imagine that Adam Driver did a good job in class because I thought he did amazing with the mask on.
I had been expecting someone to die in the movie but the scene still gets to me. I've seen the movie three times and it gets me every time. The way that Harrison Ford and Adam Driver played the scene was just heartbreaking and just sad. The first time I saw it, there were audible gasps in the theater I saw it in.
Overall, I loved the movie. I think it might be my favorite of the movies.
I enjoyed the similarities with ep 4 too. I took it as more of a nod to the past as well as a bit of a wink to let the fans know that the new movies will be more like the originals than the prequels. As well, I thought Ha n was funny too. "Move, ball" :smile: I thought it was a natural transition from cocksure smuggler to cranky old man. Although I didn't think he really seemed to miss Leia as much as I would have thought he should have.
My theory is that I feel that Rey is Luke's daughter, but he doesn't know that she is his daughter. Rey has been closed off from the Force (until she has been awoken, obviously.) She was left on Jakku by HER MOTHER, who hid Rey from the First Order and Snoke.
Ben Solo told Rey that "So this is the girl I have heard about." As a cousin, or a fellow student training with Luke? Not as a twin sister. They would have felt each other through the Force as Rey awoken..
Luke's daughter is too obvious. Vader didn't Force feel Luke in ANH. Neither Force felt Leia until RoJ. I don't believe they're twins, but still brother & sister.
I can't rule out they aren't siblings just because of Ben's wording.
M
I was thinking (like Shane mentioned) that maybe she's Han and Leia's, but Han didn't know because he left before he knew Leia was pregnant with Rey. Although I have to say, that I kind of hope that's NOT the case. It seems that too many people are too sure that Kylo(Ben) and Rey are the cinematic representation of the Solo twins from the decanonized expanded universe. I don't have a problem with the EU, and I think it was pretty lame of Lucas to just dismiss it the way he did, but what's done is done.
It seems like she should be of the Skywalker bloodline though, due to the lightsaber calling to her. It seems natural for it to be passed down through the family. But if that's the case, she has to be either Han and Leia's child, Luke's child, or some unknown Skywalker (obviously, I know). But my point is that I guess it depends how they want to tell the story. Going with Han and Leia would be the easiest road if you want to stick with Rey's training to take on the bad guy and become the new "Luke". The other two scenarios would be interesting, but they would require some heavier 'splaining, and possibly complicate the plot a bit too much.
I don't mind if it's too obvious. Sometimes the most obvious is also what makes the most sense. I like the idea that Luke had a daughter. I wouldn't mind if it turns out that Rey is in fact a Solo and is Kylo's younger sister but I think I like the connection being Luke's daughter just a bit more.
The story is told of a young, disillusioned protagonist who lives on a desert planet who is troubled by the fact that the whereabouts of their long gone parents is unknown. And while the protagonist struggles to deal with the meaninglessness of daily life, they yearn for something better.
Away from this planet, the surrounding galaxies are dominated by an evil, tyrannical, militaristic gang of thugs led by a bad guy who is empowered by the dark side of the Force and wields a red light saber. He also wears a menacing helmet and mask and speaks through an electronic filter.
A cute little droid that squeaks, beeps, and whistles is entrusted by the good guys with a top-secret piece of info critical to the struggle between the well-equipped evil forces and the much smaller, less equipped, freedom-loving, heroic side of freedom fighters.
Our little droid barely escapes capture and then proceeds to wander around looking for help in his mission of preserving the info embedded within so that it might eventually be used by the good guys against the bad guys.
This leads it to our young protagonist and that meeting quickly leads to an adventure that takes our once frustrated, stranded-feeling protagonist to strange new worlds and has them making good use of their amazing piloting skills while learning to hone their innate and remarkable ability to use the force. Also, as the adventure is just beginning, the Millennium Falcon is found and put to good use along with Han Solo and his wookie side-kick, Chewbacca.
This whole adventure culminates when a giant, planet destroying weapon that has been used by the bad guys to actually destroy a planet in order to inspire fear and compliance throughout the galaxy is itself blown to bits by the outnumbered and outgunned rag-tag team of determined peace loving, heroic, good guys.
But, before the planet-destroying piece of weaponry actually blows-up, the bad guy with the mask uses his red light saber to kill the cherished old guy of the hero crew after someone shouts, “Ben!”
And that is pretty much how Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens went down, not necessarily in that order. Give or take a few plot points.
I don't mind if it's too obvious. Sometimes the most obvious is also what makes the most sense. I like the idea that Luke had a daughter. I wouldn't mind if it turns out that Rey is in fact a Solo and is Kylo's younger sister but I think I like the connection being Luke's daughter just a bit more.
I agree.....I like the thought of her being Luke's daughter more than the EU twins or siblings route.....
I don't mind if it's too obvious. Sometimes the most obvious is also what makes the most sense. I like the idea that Luke had a daughter. I wouldn't mind if it turns out that Rey is in fact a Solo and is Kylo's younger sister but I think I like the connection being Luke's daughter just a bit more.
Makes most sense...but is the most boring angle. Jedi Knights weren't marrying, as far as we know not reproducing either. Luke seems like a traditionalist & would uphold the old ways.
And if he had a daughter, are we going to get "Luke's wife/love was murdered" bit?
To clarify something @Adam_Murdough brought up about Maz Kanata: they were acting with somebody in the room, as opposed to talking to a stick like they had to for the prequels. They utilized motion capture technology with Lupita Nyong'o, so every reaction and interaction with Maz is their reaction and interaction with Lupita.
I did enjoy the movie but I found it to be too paint by numbers. Hit the beats as expected, nothing surprising. I don't know if I was expecting the feeling of Star Wars again but that was 38 years ago so could I ever recapture it? JJ Abrams made it feel lifeless, the Chewbacca/Leia non moment proved it to me. The urge to canonize Poe Dameron after 10 minutes on screen mystifies me and Solo's death was clearly such a call back to Ben's that it sapped the scene of emotion for me. How else was that scene going to end? What is the answer for the decision to go for another Death Star? The fact that the movie itself refers to it does not excuse the laziness of the device. I did like how Ford stepped seamlessly into Solo, that part worked tremendously well for me. The new main characters also worked for me, Finn and Rey had a great dynamic and hold promise. I liked this film but it lacked the gravity of the Lucas produced trilogies, even the prequels had weight in the middle of some bad film making. This was professional film making at the expense of substance. If it serves as an opening chapter of a greater story I will forgive Awakens it's flaws.
From what I understand (maybe incorrectly), I think the "Mary Sue" thing has more to do with a central character's infallibility than with their capacity to be identifiable to an audience.
Either way, I don't really see how Rey is identifiable, since she has very little personality and whatever motivations she has aren't explained to the audience. Without any training she somehow stumbles into a position in which she displays more Jedi skills than Luke did by the end of "Return of the Jedi". She outfights Finn, who is a trained Stormtrooper. She knows more about how to fly the Millennium Falcon than Han Solo does. And she outduels Kylo Renn despite the latter having had at least a decent amount of training and having a heavy Force-sensitive parent. I'm not even a die-hard Star Wars fan, but I can't see how any of that is just something to gloss over or how it's "good enough, don't worry about it". What, it's too much to ask why this character always gets everything right on her second try without any training? And the hallucination scene was intriguing, but as an audience are we really supposed to just be okay with not knowing what Rey's motivation is? And somehow she's supposed to be relatable even though she doesn't really have a coherent personality and we don't know where she's coming from? (That's literally the selling-point of future movies: "Find out who Rey actually is and what she cares about!" And yet at the same time this character is supposed to be relatable in any meaningful way?)
It's a lot like Anakin was in Episode I. He's like a six-year-old boy, but somehow he's a master droid-smith, builds a podracer, wins the race against experienced pilots (even though it's his first race), and then somehow bumbles his way into flying a spaceship for the first time and is able to infiltrate the Star Destroyer (or whatever that ship was hovering above the planet) and destroy it from the inside, AND make it back to the planet safely. All without any training at anything (not at engineering, racing, star ships, Force, NOTHING)!
Anakin was a Mary Sue in Episode I. Rey was a Mary Sue in Episode VII. They're presented as these perfect little darling characters who only ever have to overcome lip-service-level adversity and are then able to display ridiculous levels of unearned skills.
Luke was not a Mary Sue. He was relatable (which some Mary Sues are), but Luke trained and fought and bumbled around for a long time. Think of when we saw him failing with the lightsaber training, or when Obi-Wan (and then Yoda) had to lecture him about using the Force, being patient, trusting his instincts, etc. At times Luke is impulsive, frustrated, and he'll go off and fight Darth Vader before he's ready, and get punished for it. There's nothing of that in Rey (or Young Anakin). She almost instantly masters whatever she sets her mind to, for no reason.
Of course they'll come up with some reason. But it'll be tacked on. The same way "Oh he's the Chosen One" was tacked onto Anakin in Episode I. It's a lazy explanation. I'm not saying that the Force should be "explainable", but even within the logic of the Star Wars universe, there are sensible rules to its use. Characters like Rey and Young Anakin just skirt these rules, and as an audience we're supposed to ignore it.
I'd give the movie a B-. The direction, effects, music, and cinematography were excellent. About as excellent as possible. The story was passable. The characters were okay, but I'm just not really impressed with any of them. They were okay. I liked Finn most because he was the only new character with something approaching a real personality with any semblance of earned depth.
Sorry, but the acting was terrible, again with the exception of John Boyega. Daisy Ridley and Harrison Ford were both horrible, I thought. I didn't see much of Han Solo on the screen; I saw an aging Harrison Ford playing himself for a quick paycheck. None of the mannerisms or speech patterns reminded me of Han Solo, and the moment where Han fired Chewie's weapon for the first time (?!?) didn't help matters. And Daisy Ridley took a character with no coherent motivation or personality and turned in a performance that--no surprise--was basically all over the place. (Seriously, what is there to relate to about her?) I don't think Adam Driver or the guy who played Poe were especially great either. Sorry, I just don't see much there. Poe was an okay character and enjoyable, but very one-dimensional. Kylo Ren apparently wears a helmet for no reason. None of the performances brought these very bare-bone character sketches together in any memorable way for me.
Sorry, that's how I see it. I had a fun time watching it, but I don't see anything approaching greatness here. It was a remix of the original Star Wars, which is fun or what it is but nothing more. The Prequels at least displayed some creativity, originality, and surprises. This was predicable and by-the-numbers, calculated by the Disney suits to get the most amount of money... and the most amount of applause, I guess, for what it's worth. There is a definite craft to it, and I think that the aforementioned cinematography, direction, music, etc., all work on the peripherals of the audience's perception, basically making us enjoy whatever is shown to us within that framework. I didn't really hate any of it.
Despite what I wrote above, it isn't like I'm NOT interested in Rey. I am interested in whatever happens with her, and of course there are plenty of explanations and backstory that could be added in later to make her a more understandable character. I just think that as it is now, in and of itself, this movie didn't really do a lot for me. People like Rey because they're told they're supposed to like her, even though there's nothing to her that you can really hold onto or say. It's like how the little kids who saw Episode I picked up on the notion that they were supposed to like little Anakin even though he's totally not relatable at all, nor does he have much of a personality.
I would have thought that people who have really liked Star Wars all their lives would be able to remember that, oh yeah, Luke Skywalker actually had to struggle and train for YEARS, and that he often made mistakes, and that this obviously sets him apart from perfect little Anakin and Rey. But... whatever. The final blasts when Luke blew up the Death Star were incredibly EARNED. Nothing Rey did in this movie was earned. I'm only a moderate Star Wars fan, but I'm borderlined offended that people aren't realizing that Luke AND LEIA were both far, far better, more relatable characters than Rey (or anyone else presented after "Jedi). Leia was a far better, stronger, more interesting female character than Rey.
Yes, she is a lot like the way Anakin was in Ep one. Anakin also had no father, conceived by the Force, and you could say that explained how in tune he was. I'm hoping Rey is the same.
From what I understand (maybe incorrectly), I think the "Mary Sue" thing has more to do with a central character's infallibility than with their capacity to be identifiable to an audience.
...clipped for brevity...
Anakin was a Mary Sue in Episode I. Rey was a Mary Sue in Episode VII. They're presented as these perfect little darling characters who only ever have to overcome lip-service-level adversity and are then able to display ridiculous levels of unearned skills.
Luke was not a Mary Sue....
I disagree on Luke not being a Gary Stu. In Ep IV, he's immediately proficient in the gunnery station of the Falcon, operating systems on the Deathstar, using military grade blast weapons, being aware of, and having the ability to use Empire issued Stormtrooper grappling hooks (my interpretation is that he unconsciously force manipulated it), flying single seat, hyperspace capable, fighter craft and using the Force to target proton torpedoes on a vent that is a little smaller than a womp rat. In Ep V, again, without training, he's Force-pulling his light saber while frozen and concussed.
Rey has survived, mostly on her own for some indefinite period of time in a pretty inhospitable environment. The first we see of her, she's in the middle of a salvage activity located such that just getting to that location is going to require equipment that we didn't see her use, but that is consistent with Luke nailing that grappling hook throw.
Both characters are full of self-projected wish fulfillment.
Also- while I, and perhaps many others, might relate to Luke from the point of view of feeling that you were born in a different place than where you are supposed to be, and that what it is you want or need to do is somewhere away from home- I can imagine there being a connection to be made with feeling that you did not get the time with your parents that you were supposed to. I feel privileged to not connect with that, as I am fortunate enough to still have my parents, so I can only speculate, but I would not be surprised to find that someone orphaned at a younger age, or who were separated from their birth parents, and are living in, or grew up in, foster care, might not find Rey to be a very relatable character.
Sure, there is a lot we don't know about her yet, like many other mysterious heroes in the midst of a myth-heavy story (she reminds me of an Aragorn that way). But I think the main thing we know about her, and what is shown to be her main vulnerability- that loneliness, and that faith that her family will return despite the facts- may resonate deeply with some viewers.
I disagree on Luke not being a Gary Stu. In Ep IV, he's immediately proficient in the gunnery station of the Falcon, operating systems on the Deathstar, using military grade blast weapons, being aware of, and having the ability to use Empire issued Stormtrooper grappling hooks (my interpretation is that he unconsciously force manipulated it), flying single seat, hyperspace capable, fighter craft and using the Force to target proton torpedoes on a vent that is a little smaller than a womp rat. In Ep V, again, without training, he's Force-pulling his light saber while frozen and concussed.
He also got the beat down from Darth Vader the first time he faced him. Even got his hand chopped off in the process. I think he missed the first shot he took on the Death Star trench run, failed repeatedly to demonstrate any mastery of the force before he took off to Bespin, and demonstrated several weaknesses, not the least of which was impatience.
As I recall, that within an hour or so of being able to successfully use a jedi mind trick for the first time, Rey was able to essentially defeat the same guy that destroyed Luke's jedi training school, sent jedi master Skywalker heading for the hills, and previously demonstrated the ability to stop blaster beams mid-air. I'm not even sure what personality flaws or weaknesses Rey ever demonstrated.
Irregardless of whether he/she may resonate with some viewers, I think it's more accurate to say Anakin and Rey were far more demonstrative of the "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" fan-fic type of character than Luke.
I disagree on Luke not being a Gary Stu. In Ep IV, he's immediately proficient in the gunnery station of the Falcon, operating systems on the Deathstar, using military grade blast weapons, being aware of, and having the ability to use Empire issued Stormtrooper grappling hooks (my interpretation is that he unconsciously force manipulated it), flying single seat, hyperspace capable, fighter craft and using the Force to target proton torpedoes on a vent that is a little smaller than a womp rat. In Ep V, again, without training, he's Force-pulling his light saber while frozen and concussed.
He also got the beat down from Darth Vader the first time he faced him. Even got his hand chopped off in the process. I think he missed the first shot he took on the Death Star trench run, failed repeatedly to demonstrate any mastery of the force before he took off to Bespin, and demonstrated several weaknesses, not the least of which was impatience.
As I recall, that within an hour or so of being able to successfully use a jedi mind trick for the first time, Rey was able to essentially defeat the same guy that destroyed Luke's jedi training school, sent jedi master Skywalker heading for the hills, and previously demonstrated the ability to stop blaster beams mid-air. I'm not even sure what personality flaws or weaknesses Rey ever demonstrated.
Irregardless of whether he/she may resonate with some viewers, I think it's more accurate to say Anakin and Rey were far more demonstrative of the "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" fan-fic type of character than Luke.
She wasn't completely successful the first Jedi mind trick attempt. JB-007 didn't succumb initially to the mind control.
Luke also got a couple good shots at Vader during their initial confrontation.
Arguably, was Kylo that on point during the initial fight with Rey? Sure he man-handled Finn, but Rey had some access to the Force. Plus, Kylo just killed his father & was severely injured. Sure he might have done all that stuff previously (was there a Jedi school?), but I don't believe he was at the height of his powers during the fight.
I disagree on Luke not being a Gary Stu. In Ep IV, he's immediately proficient in the gunnery station of the Falcon, operating systems on the Deathstar, using military grade blast weapons, being aware of, and having the ability to use Empire issued Stormtrooper grappling hooks (my interpretation is that he unconsciously force manipulated it), flying single seat, hyperspace capable, fighter craft and using the Force to target proton torpedoes on a vent that is a little smaller than a womp rat. In Ep V, again, without training, he's Force-pulling his light saber while frozen and concussed.
He also got the beat down from Darth Vader the first time he faced him. Even got his hand chopped off in the process. I think he missed the first shot he took on the Death Star trench run, failed repeatedly to demonstrate any mastery of the force before he took off to Bespin, and demonstrated several weaknesses, not the least of which was impatience.
As I recall, that within an hour or so of being able to successfully use a jedi mind trick for the first time, Rey was able to essentially defeat the same guy that destroyed Luke's jedi training school, sent jedi master Skywalker heading for the hills, and previously demonstrated the ability to stop blaster beams mid-air. I'm not even sure what personality flaws or weaknesses Rey ever demonstrated.
Irregardless of whether he/she may resonate with some viewers, I think it's more accurate to say Anakin and Rey were far more demonstrative of the "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" fan-fic type of character than Luke.
Taking them in chronological order:
He missed his first shot at the Deathstar using the targeting computer instead of the Force.
He did show some mastery, and for something that he'd never seen in use, when he Force-pulled his light saber from the ice in the Wampa cave.
He also went to Bespin completely overconfident and having never faced anyone in a light saber duel before.
From the flashback, Kylo Ren had a significant amount of help destroying the academy.
I'd submit that there is a strong implication that Rey had been an unconscious or latent Force user for years. That Star Destroyer wreckage had been there long enough that, if it were easy to get that kind of salvage, it should have been long gone. It's also completely unclear what other things may have occurred when she touched the light saber. Did it unlock something? Did Kylo Ren crawling around in her head have a reverse transfer? Does it really matter?
At the end of the day, they're both Mary Sue / Gary Stu characters. Arguing about which one is a more extreme example doesn't alleviate the other of the same archetype.
Arguably, perhaps, regarding Kylo's injuries, but Rey figured out the jedi mind trick in 5 minutes while Luke couldn't get his jedi powers honed in after spending a week alone with a 900 year old jedi master. He may have gotten in a couple of good shots, but he still lost his hand and had to flee. Not quite the same results.
As for the Knights of Ren destroying Luke's Jedi Temple, I understood that the official screenplay filled in those details when it was sent out to Academy members.
Arguably, perhaps, regarding Kylo's injuries, but Rey figured out the jedi mind trick in 5 minutes while Luke couldn't get his jedi powers honed in after spending a week alone with a 900 year old jedi master. He may have gotten in a couple of good shots, but he still lost his hand and had to flee. Not quite the same results.
As for the Knights of Ren destroying Luke's Jedi Temple, I understood that the official screenplay filled in those details when it was sent out to Academy members.
Thanks for that link to the reporting on the screenplay. I hadn't seen that, and there are some descriptive text in there not even covered in the novelization, and some interesting details in there.
The script gives us some internal insight into Kylo Ren after he just killed his father Han Solo. The screenplay notes that “Kylo Ren is somehow WEAKENED by this wicked act,” noting that he is “horrified” and his “SHOCK is broken only when” Chewbacca cries out in agony.
In the official novelization it is revealed that Snoke tells Kylo that Darth Vader’s one weakness was his love for his son Luke Skywalker, and if it were not for that one flaw, the Dark Side would have won.
It’s interesting that killing his father was supposed to make Kylo Ren stronger, but in the end it just made him feel weaker.
So when looking at the Ren Vs. Rey fight, when Ren starts fighting her, not only is he bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the side (and, remember, a running gag in the movie before that shot was how powerful Chewie's weapon is), and further wounded, in the sword arm, by Finn, but according to the screenplay, but also sacrificing his father to the dark side has, at least in the short term, made him weaker rather than stronger.
But, even with all those factors, I feel like he starts out the fight against Rey as the clearly stronger and more skilled fighter. I think it plays that way. She is on the defense until she is on the edge of that cliff. It is only getting calmer than him (at the moment he is off the attack and trying to recruit her) that using the force lets her win. But I think they make it clear that this is a win against a Ren that they have tried to set up is in far from his best fighting shape.
And remember what Snoke says to Hux, when he commands Ren be brought to him-- 'It is time to finish his training'.
Rey fighting Ren is not Luke fighting a fresh, springing-his-trap Vader in Empire.
Ren was not fresh for the fight, and is no Vader. Not yet.
I know Rey didn't have the training Luke did, but wasn't Luke struggling that first week with Yoda because he wasn't focusing? He even created his own doubt which is why he couldn't lift the X-wing. It's been awhile since I read Shadows of the Empire, but beyond building a lightsaber, what kind of training did Luke really get? Was it using the Force to pick things up & put them down?
I wasn't under the impression Rey had any of those insecurities. Perhaps that is why she had quicker success with using the Force.
Either way, I don't really see how Rey is identifiable, since she has very little personality and whatever motivations she has aren't explained to the audience. Without any training she somehow stumbles into a position in which she displays more Jedi skills than Luke did by the end of "Return of the Jedi". She knows more about how to fly the Millennium Falcon than Han Solo does.
I'm not quite ready to say she had more skill than Luke at the end of Jedi. Luke gave a much better duel in Jedi than Rey does here. That said she had more skill than a pre-Dagobagh Luke no doubt. As for flying the Falcon, I prefer to tell myself that Han is now an old man. The phrase he has forgotten more about the Falcon than Rey currently knows probably applies.
You mean that time he was shot down on Hoth, shortly before taking down an AT-AT single-handedly? ;)
Actually Luke single handedly took down that snowalker by placing explosives within it after being shot down. The walker downed by a snowspeeder harpoon attack was done by Wedge and his tailgunner Janson. It was Luke's plan but he couldn't do it because his gunner Dak was already dead. Wedge and Janson actually did the deed.
You mean that time he was shot down on Hoth, shortly before taking down an AT-AT single-handedly? ;)
Actually Luke single handedly took down that snowalker by placing explosives within it after being shot down. The walker downed by a snowspeeder harpoon attack was done by Wedge and his tailgunner Janson. It was Luke's plan but he couldn't do it because his gunner Dak was already dead. Wedge and Janson actually did the deed.
So, he still single-handedly brought down an AT-AT, he just did it without a vehicle or heavy weapons?
You mean that time he was shot down on Hoth, shortly before taking down an AT-AT single-handedly? ;)
Actually Luke single handedly took down that snowalker by placing explosives within it after being shot down. The walker downed by a snowspeeder harpoon attack was done by Wedge and his tailgunner Janson. It was Luke's plan but he couldn't do it because his gunner Dak was already dead. Wedge and Janson actually did the deed.
I think you and I are saying the same thing. I mean 'take down' as in, after he got shot down, he killed an AT-AT, using just a lightsaber and a bomb. But, yes, there was that other one, that gets taken down, too. But I am talking about the one that Luke does by himself, without a speeder.
I don't mind if it's too obvious. Sometimes the most obvious is also what makes the most sense. I like the idea that Luke had a daughter. I wouldn't mind if it turns out that Rey is in fact a Solo and is Kylo's younger sister but I think I like the connection being Luke's daughter just a bit more.
Makes most sense...but is the most boring angle. Jedi Knights weren't marrying, as far as we know not reproducing either. Luke seems like a traditionalist & would uphold the old ways.
And if he had a daughter, are we going to get "Luke's wife/love was murdered" bit?
M
@Matt you are talking about the old Jedi ways and I think we saw in the prequels that their ways are partially the reason they were wiped out. If Luke followed the traditional Jedi ways, he more than likely would have killed Vader in Return of the Jedi. It was Luke's connection to Vader that drove him to spare his father. It was Vader's love for Padme that brought about the "New Hope" in Luke to begin with. I could see Luke not wanting to make the same mistakes as the old Jedi and fall in love. I could see him upholding certain things but at the same time invoking new traditions as well. Also, if Jedi don't reproduce, how are Jedi born? Did the midichorians just randomly fuse with unborn children? I like the idea of Rey being Luke's daughter and maybe if that's what they writers go with, we'll get some backstory about it in the next movie.
I don't mind if it's too obvious. Sometimes the most obvious is also what makes the most sense. I like the idea that Luke had a daughter. I wouldn't mind if it turns out that Rey is in fact a Solo and is Kylo's younger sister but I think I like the connection being Luke's daughter just a bit more.
Makes most sense...but is the most boring angle. Jedi Knights weren't marrying, as far as we know not reproducing either. Luke seems like a traditionalist & would uphold the old ways.
And if he had a daughter, are we going to get "Luke's wife/love was murdered" bit?
M
@Matt you are talking about the old Jedi ways and I think we saw in the prequels that their ways are partially the reason they were wiped out. If Luke followed the traditional Jedi ways, he more than likely would have killed Vader in Return of the Jedi. It was Luke's connection to Vader that drove him to spare his father. It was Vader's love for Padme that brought about the "New Hope" in Luke to begin with. I could see Luke not wanting to make the same mistakes as the old Jedi and fall in love. I could see him upholding certain things but at the same time invoking new traditions as well. Also, if Jedi don't reproduce, how are Jedi born? Did the midichorians just randomly fuse with unborn children? I like the idea of Rey being Luke's daughter and maybe if that's what they writers go with, we'll get some backstory about it in the next movie.
Are we assuming all Jedi are offsprings of Jedi parent(s)? I always figured they were similar to mutants in the Marvel Universe. The odds of a mutant having mutant children are higher, but not a guarantee.
Sure Anakin had the Force & Luke has the Force, but is it cemented Leia has it too? In all the years since RoJ, Leia hasn't had even the basic of training? Now, Ben has the Force as we've seen, and it's definitely in the Skywalker bloodline, but I'm wondering if Leia truly has it.
I can see Luke not following every single tradition of the Jedi, but as the only Jedi Knight, I can see him spending his life focusing on the Force instead of a family; that too lead to the death of the Jedi.
I would be more accepting if Rey was an adopted daughter then biological daughter. If Luke is the father, he abandoned at least her because of Ben; possibly also her mother. It's just too 'convenient' for Rey to just be his daughter.
Good point about Leia. Does that make her a squib--to borrow a term from another popular series? We have not to my knowledge seen her using the force in an active sense.
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It seems like she should be of the Skywalker bloodline though, due to the lightsaber calling to her. It seems natural for it to be passed down through the family. But if that's the case, she has to be either Han and Leia's child, Luke's child, or some unknown Skywalker (obviously, I know). But my point is that I guess it depends how they want to tell the story. Going with Han and Leia would be the easiest road if you want to stick with Rey's training to take on the bad guy and become the new "Luke". The other two scenarios would be interesting, but they would require some heavier 'splaining, and possibly complicate the plot a bit too much.
In Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope...
The story is told of a young, disillusioned protagonist who lives on a desert planet who is troubled by the fact that the whereabouts of their long gone parents is unknown. And while the protagonist struggles to deal with the meaninglessness of daily life, they yearn for something better.
Away from this planet, the surrounding galaxies are dominated by an evil, tyrannical, militaristic gang of thugs led by a bad guy who is empowered by the dark side of the Force and wields a red light saber. He also wears a menacing helmet and mask and speaks through an electronic filter.
A cute little droid that squeaks, beeps, and whistles is entrusted by the good guys with a top-secret piece of info critical to the struggle between the well-equipped evil forces and the much smaller, less equipped, freedom-loving, heroic side of freedom fighters.
Our little droid barely escapes capture and then proceeds to wander around looking for help in his mission of preserving the info embedded within so that it might eventually be used by the good guys against the bad guys.
This leads it to our young protagonist and that meeting quickly leads to an adventure that takes our once frustrated, stranded-feeling protagonist to strange new worlds and has them making good use of their amazing piloting skills while learning to hone their innate and remarkable ability to use the force. Also, as the adventure is just beginning, the Millennium Falcon is found and put to good use along with Han Solo and his wookie side-kick, Chewbacca.
This whole adventure culminates when a giant, planet destroying weapon that has been used by the bad guys to actually destroy a planet in order to inspire fear and compliance throughout the galaxy is itself blown to bits by the outnumbered and outgunned rag-tag team of determined peace loving, heroic, good guys.
But, before the planet-destroying piece of weaponry actually blows-up, the bad guy with the mask uses his red light saber to kill the cherished old guy of the hero crew after someone shouts, “Ben!”
And that is pretty much how Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens went down, not necessarily in that order. Give or take a few plot points.
And if he had a daughter, are we going to get "Luke's wife/love was murdered" bit?
M
Either way, I don't really see how Rey is identifiable, since she has very little personality and whatever motivations she has aren't explained to the audience. Without any training she somehow stumbles into a position in which she displays more Jedi skills than Luke did by the end of "Return of the Jedi". She outfights Finn, who is a trained Stormtrooper. She knows more about how to fly the Millennium Falcon than Han Solo does. And she outduels Kylo Renn despite the latter having had at least a decent amount of training and having a heavy Force-sensitive parent. I'm not even a die-hard Star Wars fan, but I can't see how any of that is just something to gloss over or how it's "good enough, don't worry about it". What, it's too much to ask why this character always gets everything right on her second try without any training? And the hallucination scene was intriguing, but as an audience are we really supposed to just be okay with not knowing what Rey's motivation is? And somehow she's supposed to be relatable even though she doesn't really have a coherent personality and we don't know where she's coming from? (That's literally the selling-point of future movies: "Find out who Rey actually is and what she cares about!" And yet at the same time this character is supposed to be relatable in any meaningful way?)
It's a lot like Anakin was in Episode I. He's like a six-year-old boy, but somehow he's a master droid-smith, builds a podracer, wins the race against experienced pilots (even though it's his first race), and then somehow bumbles his way into flying a spaceship for the first time and is able to infiltrate the Star Destroyer (or whatever that ship was hovering above the planet) and destroy it from the inside, AND make it back to the planet safely. All without any training at anything (not at engineering, racing, star ships, Force, NOTHING)!
Anakin was a Mary Sue in Episode I. Rey was a Mary Sue in Episode VII. They're presented as these perfect little darling characters who only ever have to overcome lip-service-level adversity and are then able to display ridiculous levels of unearned skills.
Luke was not a Mary Sue. He was relatable (which some Mary Sues are), but Luke trained and fought and bumbled around for a long time. Think of when we saw him failing with the lightsaber training, or when Obi-Wan (and then Yoda) had to lecture him about using the Force, being patient, trusting his instincts, etc. At times Luke is impulsive, frustrated, and he'll go off and fight Darth Vader before he's ready, and get punished for it. There's nothing of that in Rey (or Young Anakin). She almost instantly masters whatever she sets her mind to, for no reason.
Of course they'll come up with some reason. But it'll be tacked on. The same way "Oh he's the Chosen One" was tacked onto Anakin in Episode I. It's a lazy explanation. I'm not saying that the Force should be "explainable", but even within the logic of the Star Wars universe, there are sensible rules to its use. Characters like Rey and Young Anakin just skirt these rules, and as an audience we're supposed to ignore it.
I'd give the movie a B-. The direction, effects, music, and cinematography were excellent. About as excellent as possible. The story was passable. The characters were okay, but I'm just not really impressed with any of them. They were okay. I liked Finn most because he was the only new character with something approaching a real personality with any semblance of earned depth.
Sorry, but the acting was terrible, again with the exception of John Boyega. Daisy Ridley and Harrison Ford were both horrible, I thought. I didn't see much of Han Solo on the screen; I saw an aging Harrison Ford playing himself for a quick paycheck. None of the mannerisms or speech patterns reminded me of Han Solo, and the moment where Han fired Chewie's weapon for the first time (?!?) didn't help matters. And Daisy Ridley took a character with no coherent motivation or personality and turned in a performance that--no surprise--was basically all over the place. (Seriously, what is there to relate to about her?) I don't think Adam Driver or the guy who played Poe were especially great either. Sorry, I just don't see much there. Poe was an okay character and enjoyable, but very one-dimensional. Kylo Ren apparently wears a helmet for no reason. None of the performances brought these very bare-bone character sketches together in any memorable way for me.
Sorry, that's how I see it. I had a fun time watching it, but I don't see anything approaching greatness here. It was a remix of the original Star Wars, which is fun or what it is but nothing more. The Prequels at least displayed some creativity, originality, and surprises. This was predicable and by-the-numbers, calculated by the Disney suits to get the most amount of money... and the most amount of applause, I guess, for what it's worth. There is a definite craft to it, and I think that the aforementioned cinematography, direction, music, etc., all work on the peripherals of the audience's perception, basically making us enjoy whatever is shown to us within that framework. I didn't really hate any of it.
Despite what I wrote above, it isn't like I'm NOT interested in Rey. I am interested in whatever happens with her, and of course there are plenty of explanations and backstory that could be added in later to make her a more understandable character. I just think that as it is now, in and of itself, this movie didn't really do a lot for me. People like Rey because they're told they're supposed to like her, even though there's nothing to her that you can really hold onto or say. It's like how the little kids who saw Episode I picked up on the notion that they were supposed to like little Anakin even though he's totally not relatable at all, nor does he have much of a personality.
I would have thought that people who have really liked Star Wars all their lives would be able to remember that, oh yeah, Luke Skywalker actually had to struggle and train for YEARS, and that he often made mistakes, and that this obviously sets him apart from perfect little Anakin and Rey. But... whatever. The final blasts when Luke blew up the Death Star were incredibly EARNED. Nothing Rey did in this movie was earned. I'm only a moderate Star Wars fan, but I'm borderlined offended that people aren't realizing that Luke AND LEIA were both far, far better, more relatable characters than Rey (or anyone else presented after "Jedi). Leia was a far better, stronger, more interesting female character than Rey.
Rey has survived, mostly on her own for some indefinite period of time in a pretty inhospitable environment. The first we see of her, she's in the middle of a salvage activity located such that just getting to that location is going to require equipment that we didn't see her use, but that is consistent with Luke nailing that grappling hook throw.
Both characters are full of self-projected wish fulfillment.
Sure, there is a lot we don't know about her yet, like many other mysterious heroes in the midst of a myth-heavy story (she reminds me of an Aragorn that way). But I think the main thing we know about her, and what is shown to be her main vulnerability- that loneliness, and that faith that her family will return despite the facts- may resonate deeply with some viewers.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3mgwh8_star-wars-the-force-awakens-special-effects-making-of_shortfilms
As I recall, that within an hour or so of being able to successfully use a jedi mind trick for the first time, Rey was able to essentially defeat the same guy that destroyed Luke's jedi training school, sent jedi master Skywalker heading for the hills, and previously demonstrated the ability to stop blaster beams mid-air. I'm not even sure what personality flaws or weaknesses Rey ever demonstrated.
Irregardless of whether he/she may resonate with some viewers, I think it's more accurate to say Anakin and Rey were far more demonstrative of the "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" fan-fic type of character than Luke.
Luke also got a couple good shots at Vader during their initial confrontation.
Arguably, was Kylo that on point during the initial fight with Rey? Sure he man-handled Finn, but Rey had some access to the Force. Plus, Kylo just killed his father & was severely injured. Sure he might have done all that stuff previously (was there a Jedi school?), but I don't believe he was at the height of his powers during the fight.
M
He missed his first shot at the Deathstar using the targeting computer instead of the Force.
He did show some mastery, and for something that he'd never seen in use, when he Force-pulled his light saber from the ice in the Wampa cave.
He also went to Bespin completely overconfident and having never faced anyone in a light saber duel before.
From the flashback, Kylo Ren had a significant amount of help destroying the academy.
I'd submit that there is a strong implication that Rey had been an unconscious or latent Force user for years. That Star Destroyer wreckage had been there long enough that, if it were easy to get that kind of salvage, it should have been long gone. It's also completely unclear what other things may have occurred when she touched the light saber. Did it unlock something? Did Kylo Ren crawling around in her head have a reverse transfer? Does it really matter?
At the end of the day, they're both Mary Sue / Gary Stu characters. Arguing about which one is a more extreme example doesn't alleviate the other of the same archetype.
As for the Knights of Ren destroying Luke's Jedi Temple, I understood that the official screenplay filled in those details when it was sent out to Academy members.
One thing stood out to me, as it related to whether or not we can buy Rey (barely) winning the fight against Ren, to quote /Film's coverage of the screenplay that Mary Sue reported on-- So when looking at the Ren Vs. Rey fight, when Ren starts fighting her, not only is he bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the side (and, remember, a running gag in the movie before that shot was how powerful Chewie's weapon is), and further wounded, in the sword arm, by Finn, but according to the screenplay, but also sacrificing his father to the dark side has, at least in the short term, made him weaker rather than stronger.
But, even with all those factors, I feel like he starts out the fight against Rey as the clearly stronger and more skilled fighter. I think it plays that way. She is on the defense until she is on the edge of that cliff. It is only getting calmer than him (at the moment he is off the attack and trying to recruit her) that using the force lets her win. But I think they make it clear that this is a win against a Ren that they have tried to set up is in far from his best fighting shape.
And remember what Snoke says to Hux, when he commands Ren be brought to him-- 'It is time to finish his training'.
Rey fighting Ren is not Luke fighting a fresh, springing-his-trap Vader in Empire.
Ren was not fresh for the fight, and is no Vader. Not yet.
I wasn't under the impression Rey had any of those insecurities. Perhaps that is why she had quicker success with using the Force.
M
As for flying the Falcon, I prefer to tell myself that Han is now an old man. The phrase he has forgotten more about the Falcon than Rey currently knows probably applies.
Hmmm. Okay then, he got shot down on Hoth, and later crashed on Dagobah. Would that count?
The walker downed by a snowspeeder harpoon attack was done by Wedge and his tailgunner Janson. It was Luke's plan but he couldn't do it because his gunner Dak was already dead. Wedge and Janson actually did the deed.
Sure Anakin had the Force & Luke has the Force, but is it cemented Leia has it too? In all the years since RoJ, Leia hasn't had even the basic of training? Now, Ben has the Force as we've seen, and it's definitely in the Skywalker bloodline, but I'm wondering if Leia truly has it.
I can see Luke not following every single tradition of the Jedi, but as the only Jedi Knight, I can see him spending his life focusing on the Force instead of a family; that too lead to the death of the Jedi.
I would be more accepting if Rey was an adopted daughter then biological daughter. If Luke is the father, he abandoned at least her because of Ben; possibly also her mother. It's just too 'convenient' for Rey to just be his daughter.
M