Nighthawk, he was in the Loners right? (Just kidding I know he was a part of the New Defenders ;) )
As for manga, I dabble a little more than most but @Torchsong devours. Your comment made me think of @John_Steed; I miss Werner.
I think this version is the one from Squadron Sinister. The one from the Defenders has been relegated to crowd scene status since no one knew how to write him but Steve Gerber.
I thought this one was from the Mark Waid's Squadron Supreme. Though I haven't read the title yet. I could be wrong.
Close-- I think Waid might have done a later volume. But this version of Nighthawk started in Supreme Power (a Squadron Supreme reboot, alternate Earth, and a MAX book) by JMS and Gary Frank. The character ended up in the 616 as part of the Secret Wars fallout, I think.
Yeah, Supreme Power is what I was thinking of. I forgot it started with JMS... And was yet another thing he walked away from !
Wasn't a pre-vampire Jubilee also Night Thrasher for a bowl of cereal?
No. She was part of the New Warriors though, when the train was composed of mostly de-powered mutants.
The leader was a new Night Thrasher, who turned out to be the brother of the original.
-Demonstrative Doom!
You know entirely too much about Night Thrasher. But then, I’ve never read a Night Thrasher comic, and I feel I know too much about Night Thrasher.
I kept waiting for him to listen to some heavy metal, but alas, wrong kind of Thrasher.
Yeah, he was a skateboarder before skate punk broke out, so he was totally into JFA and Gang Green. Then he veered off with Fishbone and Bad Religion. He never got into Offspring and Blink-182—he thought they were sellouts.
With Richard Rider reportedly returning, will that be all the classic New Warriors back in the land of living?
To tie this back into the topic, it's a delicate balance as to what launches will work and what won't.
It's clear from past attempts, nobody is that interested in a New Warriors book that isn't the New Warriors team that lasted 75 issues (53 of which people liked). Presumably, with all the pieces back on the board, we can get the Nearly New Warriors book down the line.
But in the case of Nighthawk, the problem is less that it wasn't Kyle Richmond (the Black Knight comic gives you an idea that your tenure in a Marvel Superhero team doesn't equal comic sales), more that it was a spin-off to a book that barely had found its own footing and identity, due to it being a spin-off itself.
As bad as Nighthawk was doing in sales, his buddy Hyperion's solo comic was faring even worse. Of course, less people are up in arms about that one as it was a bewildering "What If Superman Was A Truck Driver Stuck In A 70's Horror Movie?" comic rather Nighthawk's simpler premise.
no one blamed, shamed or attacked anyone, The book didn't sell and it got cancelled, as do many books. this one had a lot of great reviews, as do many cancelled books. maybe people read the reviews and went into the shop to get it, found no copies on the shelf because stores didn't order enough and moved on. maybe not. if there are not copies of Nighthawk sitting on shelves across the country then maybe there was an audience that didn't get served because the stores didn't carry it. or maybe the stores ordered exactly the correct number of copies and there really isn't an audience for it. we can't really know for sure. We can try to figure out why it didn't sell. maybe its the politics, maybe its the character, but certainly other books with a eft leaving sell just fine, and as has been pointed out, a young adult leaning Squirrel Girl comic with a simple cartoony art style was sure fire DOA until it wasn't.
Regardless, as many have pointed out, none of that is blame, yet many fans, including Jude terror chose to react as if it is. To make matters worse all of the stuff he got wrong about the direct market served to do one thing, make everything look like Marvels fault. By getting nearly all his fact wrong, he could make that case. he painted a picture of Marvel not wanting to grow the market, Marvel forcing retailers into a non returnable model so they could produce shitty comics with no fear of returns. Marvel eating babies and raping childhoods. When called out he reacts even worse. he attacks the attackers, claims he doesn't need to base opinions on correct information. Copies and pastes a Wikipedia entry which doesn't really support his claim (and has many of the issues that plague Wiki entries) Claims "i am not a journalist" (as if not being a journalist makes it ok to lie to prove a point) and attacks those who claim they are for not covering a story that really isn't a story.
but isn't this his whole MO? his website was built on capitalizing on and fueling fan anger. its donald trump for comics. he lived off people being mad at DC for years now. Has rebirth killed that? If people like DC again does he have to pivot to the good old standby for geek hate, Marvel?
This whole thing really could tuck nicely into the discussion about journalism in the episode 1621 thread if peter and bralinator are done fighting.
Nighthawk, he was in the Loners right? (Just kidding I know he was a part of the New Defenders ;) )
As for manga, I dabble a little more than most but @Torchsong devours. Your comment made me think of @John_Steed; I miss Werner.
I think this version is the one from Squadron Sinister. The one from the Defenders has been relegated to crowd scene status since no one knew how to write him but Steve Gerber.
I thought this one was from the Mark Waid's Squadron Supreme. Though I haven't read the title yet. I could be wrong.
Close-- I think Waid might have done a later volume. But this version of Nighthawk started in Supreme Power (a Squadron Supreme reboot, alternate Earth, and a MAX book) by JMS and Gary Frank. The character ended up in the 616 as part of the Secret Wars fallout, I think.
Yeah, Supreme Power is what I was thinking of. I forgot it started with JMS... And was yet another thing he walked away from !
Nighthawk, he was in the Loners right? (Just kidding I know he was a part of the New Defenders ;) )
As for manga, I dabble a little more than most but @Torchsong devours. Your comment made me think of @John_Steed; I miss Werner.
I think this version is the one from Squadron Sinister. The one from the Defenders has been relegated to crowd scene status since no one knew how to write him but Steve Gerber.
I thought this one was from the Mark Waid's Squadron Supreme. Though I haven't read the title yet. I could be wrong.
Close-- I think Waid might have done a later volume. But this version of Nighthawk started in Supreme Power (a Squadron Supreme reboot, alternate Earth, and a MAX book) by JMS and Gary Frank. The character ended up in the 616 as part of the Secret Wars fallout, I think.
Yeah, Supreme Power is what I was thinking of. I forgot it started with JMS... And was yet another thing he walked away from !
I agree that the system of pre-ordering a comic is insane. Not sure if there is much possibility of changing such an ingrained system.
I suppose if a publisher wanted to push new titles, couldn't they make the first 3-4 issues of some titles returnable, so that local shops could be encouraged to have plenty of issues on hand without the big risk they currently carry?
I suppose if a publisher wanted to push new titles, couldn't they make the first 3-4 issues of some titles returnable, so that local shops could be encouraged to have plenty of issues on hand without the big risk they currently carry?
They could, but they would have to negotiate that with Diamond, as Diamond does not have the manpower to deal with returns on a regular basis. It would probably mean a lower cut for the publisher, and definitely a larger cut for Diamond (to pay for the additional manpower and storage needs), and a lower discount for the retailer. But it could certainly be done.
I agree that the system of pre-ordering a comic is insane. Not sure if there is much possibility of changing such an ingrained system.
I suppose if a publisher wanted to push new titles, couldn't they make the first 3-4 issues of some titles returnable, so that local shops could be encouraged to have plenty of issues on hand without the big risk they currently carry?
They do have that through non-Diamond distributors. And the shops would get a 20% discount instead of a 55% discount.
I agree that the system of pre-ordering a comic is insane. Not sure if there is much possibility of changing such an ingrained system.
I suppose if a publisher wanted to push new titles, couldn't they make the first 3-4 issues of some titles returnable, so that local shops could be encouraged to have plenty of issues on hand without the big risk they currently carry?
They do have that through non-Diamond distributors. And the shops would get a 20% discount instead of a 55% discount.
Thanks for the numbers. I wasn’t sure what the discount was on returnables.
That would mean I would no longer be able to get my 25% off discount from my LCS. I’d get 15% off tops, but it might end the 10% off new comics deal they’ve had from the day the doors opened in the mid-’80s. And say sayonara to huge DCBS discounts while you’re at it.
I agree that the system of pre-ordering a comic is insane. Not sure if there is much possibility of changing such an ingrained system.
I suppose if a publisher wanted to push new titles, couldn't they make the first 3-4 issues of some titles returnable, so that local shops could be encouraged to have plenty of issues on hand without the big risk they currently carry?
To be blunt, it wouldn't happen. The few comics still sold through magazine distributors are the ones you see at Barnes and Noble on the stands with the magazine...and magazines are dying a slow, painful death as well. Returnability is what nearly killed comics in 1975 - 1979 and NO ONE wants to go back to that.
Book returnability is what killed TSR. They has shipped a lot of their paperback novels for a Christmas season, and Borders had no money to pay them for what they had sold, so they just returned everything on the shelves instead of paying for what they had sold. Not only did it mean TSR didn't get paid for all the books they DID sell over the holiday season, but they had no shelf presence. Poof, gone, bought by the Magic Cards people.
The "good old days" of newsstand distribution killed Gold Key, Hervey, Charlton, Warren, etc... by 1982, and it'll come back around the same time as radio drama, pulp magazines, home milk delivery and the Dumont Network.
To be blunt, it wouldn't happen. The few comics still sold through magazine distributors are the ones you see at Barnes and Noble on the stands with the magazine...and magazines are dying a slow, painful death as well. Returnability is what nearly killed comics in 1975 - 1979 and NO ONE wants to go back to that.
Book returnability is what killed TSR. They has shipped a lot of their paperback novels for a Christmas season, and Borders had no money to pay them for what they had sold, so they just returned everything on the shelves instead of paying for what they had sold. Not only did it mean TSR didn't get paid for all the books they DID sell over the holiday season, but they had no shelf presence. Poof, gone, bought by the Magic Cards people.
The "good old days" of newsstand distribution killed Gold Key, Hervey, Charlton, Warren, etc... by 1982, and it'll come back around the same time as radio drama, pulp magazines, home milk delivery and the Dumont Network.
I think Marvel and DC could survive returnability simply because there aren’t nearly as many outlets as there once were. The relatively low number of bookstores and newsstands who carry comics aren’t going to suddenly devote more space to comics and start ordering 20 copies of Nighthawk, they’re going to keep their orders limited to Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc.—the books they are more likely to sell. I really don’t think that the order numbers would change dramatically except for in the case of event books and #1 (and #2 and #3) issues.
Plus, there are no chains of comic shops that come close in size to the level of Borders. True, it wouldn’t take as big a disaster as Borders going out of business to significantly hurt Marvel or DC, but I think they could absorb the loss of a three- or four-store chain, especially if they put a time limit (say, six months) on how long an item is returnable. Which I think they would have to do given the back-issue nature of the business.
Independent publishers, though, would probably drop like flies.
I was just listening to Tim Seeley talk about how Devil's Due just got killed by selling a huge 100,000 print run of Family Guy comics to Blockbuster then having all returned. Crankcast episode 569.
I was just listening to Tim Seeley talk about how Devil's Due just got killed by selling a huge 100,000 print run of Family Guy comics to Blockbuster then having all returned. Crankcast episode 569.
Publishing on that scale is very much a gamble, especially for a small publisher. I mean, you want to have faith in your product, but you have to weigh the risks versus the potential gains.
I was just listening to Tim Seeley talk about how Devil's Due just got killed by selling a huge 100,000 print run of Family Guy comics to Blockbuster then having all returned. Crankcast episode 569.
Publishing on that scale is very much a gamble, especially for a small publisher. I mean, you want to have faith in your product, but you have to weigh the risks versus the potential gains.
Good grief! What was Devil's Due thinking? That's probably more than they print in a single month.
but isn't this his whole MO? his website was built on capitalizing on and fueling fan anger. its donald trump for comics. he lived off people being mad at DC for years now. Has rebirth killed that? If people like DC again does he have to pivot to the good old standby for geek hate, Marvel?
That's funny because I'm pretty sure Jude hates Trump too. He might appreciate the comparison though.
This whole thing really could tuck nicely into the discussion about journalism in the episode 1621 thread if peter and bralinator are done fighting.
This particular thread seems to be getting a lot of good debate and discussion in spite of mine and Peter's disagreements. And if you want to go back and review that thread again, it was derailed long before I kicked any sand around, but I think we're wrapping it up.
I was just listening to Tim Seeley talk about how Devil's Due just got killed by selling a huge 100,000 print run of Family Guy comics to Blockbuster then having all returned. Crankcast episode 569.
Publishing on that scale is very much a gamble, especially for a small publisher. I mean, you want to have faith in your product, but you have to weigh the risks versus the potential gains.
Good grief! What was Devil's Due thinking? That's probably more than they print in a single month.
They were probably thinking, “Yeah, we can sell 40,000 copies if we’re in Blockbuster, and if we sell more than that, we'll make a killing.” But then Blockbuster started shutting down stores at the same time. Can't sell books if the doors aren’t open.
I was just listening to Tim Seeley talk about how Devil's Due just got killed by selling a huge 100,000 print run of Family Guy comics to Blockbuster then having all returned. Crankcast episode 569.
Publishing on that scale is very much a gamble, especially for a small publisher. I mean, you want to have faith in your product, but you have to weigh the risks versus the potential gains.
Good grief! What was Devil's Due thinking? That's probably more than they print in a single month.
They were probably thinking, “Yeah, we can sell 40,000 copies if we’re in Blockbuster, and if we sell more than that, we'll make a killing.” But then Blockbuster started shutting down stores at the same time. Can't sell books if the doors aren’t open.
And this is from the 2006 press releases announcing the new comic:
TV show ranked #1 in its time slot among men 18 – 34 and teens 12 – 17 #1 series on Cartoon Network and TBS Audience is growing – Fall viwership is up 25% Family Guy Toys & Trading Cards have continually sold out Family Guy books have sold over 60,000 copies
With more information in the forthcoming weeks, keep eyes peeled to www.DevilsDue.net, home of the FAMILY GUY comic books and more!
Devil’s Due: Reminding everyone that pop culture IS our culture.
ABOUT DEVIL’S DUE PUBLISHING –
Devil’s Due Publishing was formed in 1999 as both a commercial art studio and a small press comic book publisher. DDP’s first breakout success was 2001’s revamp of G.I. JOE, returning the long-lost 1980s characters to comics. Fans bought over 100,000 copies per month, immediately propelling the company to the top of the charts. Today, DDP’s lineup includes Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Family Guy, eigoManga, Hack/Slash, Capcom’s Killer 7, and the newly resurrected Chaos! Comics!
You're right on the nose with that 40k estimate. They probably figured that was in the bag.
I was just listening to Tim Seeley talk about how Devil's Due just got killed by selling a huge 100,000 print run of Family Guy comics to Blockbuster then having all returned. Crankcast episode 569.
Publishing on that scale is very much a gamble, especially for a small publisher. I mean, you want to have faith in your product, but you have to weigh the risks versus the potential gains.
Good grief! What was Devil's Due thinking? That's probably more than they print in a single month.
It was part of the contract that they had to have that many available for sale. He said when I interviewed him that that contract nearly killed the company and was the cause for the non-payment of creators flap that lasted about a year.
It was part of the contract that they had to have that many available for sale. He said when I interviewed him that that contract nearly killed the company and was the cause for the non-payment of creators flap that lasted about a year.
But the point is that you don’t have to sign that contract if you don’t think the math will work for you. Obviously, you can’t know exactly what is going to happen, but you have to weigh the risks and be willing to walk away from a potentially lucrative contract.
It was part of the contract that they had to have that many available for sale. He said when I interviewed him that that contract nearly killed the company and was the cause for the non-payment of creators flap that lasted about a year.
But the point is that you don’t have to sign that contract if you don’t think the math will work for you. Obviously, you can’t know exactly what is going to happen, but you have to weigh the risks and be willing to walk away from a potentially lucrative contract.
At the time, Family Guy sold millions of DVDs, Fox promised wide distribution and it was the hottest license in the US. They had sold more than 100k of much lesser licensed titles. I'd go with those odds. I'd go with them in a heartbeat.
It was part of the contract that they had to have that many available for sale. He said when I interviewed him that that contract nearly killed the company and was the cause for the non-payment of creators flap that lasted about a year.
But the point is that you don’t have to sign that contract if you don’t think the math will work for you. Obviously, you can’t know exactly what is going to happen, but you have to weigh the risks and be willing to walk away from a potentially lucrative contract.
At the time, Family Guy sold millions of DVDs, Fox promised wide distribution and it was the hottest license in the US. They had sold more than 100k of much lesser licensed titles. I'd go with those odds. I'd go with them in a heartbeat.
When Adult Swim started replaying those episodes the DVD sales went through the roof. It had been cancelled for almost 2 years before fox brought the show on strength of DVD sales.
That show just exploded with the college crowd. I apologize to all of you guys for that; I really mean it.
It was part of the contract that they had to have that many available for sale. He said when I interviewed him that that contract nearly killed the company and was the cause for the non-payment of creators flap that lasted about a year.
But the point is that you don’t have to sign that contract if you don’t think the math will work for you. Obviously, you can’t know exactly what is going to happen, but you have to weigh the risks and be willing to walk away from a potentially lucrative contract.
At the time, Family Guy sold millions of DVDs, Fox promised wide distribution and it was the hottest license in the US. They had sold more than 100k of much lesser licensed titles. I'd go with those odds. I'd go with them in a heartbeat.
When Adult Swim started replaying those episodes the DVD sales went through the roof. It had been cancelled for almost 2 years before fox brought the show on strength of DVD sales.
That show just exploded with the college crowd. I apologize to all of you guys for that; I really mean it.
If you look at the bold figure in the press release above I shared 5 posts back, you see Devil's Due touting that "Family Guy books have sold over 60,000 copies". Is that a single unique Family Guy book? Anyone know? Regardless, none had sold 100k. It was a serious gamble. I'm just thankful they've righted the ship and hopefully are fully financially recovered. Would you know that Corey?
It was part of the contract that they had to have that many available for sale. He said when I interviewed him that that contract nearly killed the company and was the cause for the non-payment of creators flap that lasted about a year.
But the point is that you don’t have to sign that contract if you don’t think the math will work for you. Obviously, you can’t know exactly what is going to happen, but you have to weigh the risks and be willing to walk away from a potentially lucrative contract.
At the time, Family Guy sold millions of DVDs, Fox promised wide distribution and it was the hottest license in the US. They had sold more than 100k of much lesser licensed titles. I'd go with those odds. I'd go with them in a heartbeat.
Some of those early Family Guy dvds are still floating around. Around two weeks ago, I went to a local dvd/game store. They had dozens of each of the first 3 seasons of Family Guy dvds in the bargin bins for $3.99 each.
Comments
See I know a lot about Night Thrasher too!
To tie this back into the topic, it's a delicate balance as to what launches will work and what won't.
It's clear from past attempts, nobody is that interested in a New Warriors book that isn't the New Warriors team that lasted 75 issues (53 of which people liked). Presumably, with all the pieces back on the board, we can get the Nearly New Warriors book down the line.
But in the case of Nighthawk, the problem is less that it wasn't Kyle Richmond (the Black Knight comic gives you an idea that your tenure in a Marvel Superhero team doesn't equal comic sales), more that it was a spin-off to a book that barely had found its own footing and identity, due to it being a spin-off itself.
As bad as Nighthawk was doing in sales, his buddy Hyperion's solo comic was faring even worse. Of course, less people are up in arms about that one as it was a bewildering "What If Superman Was A Truck Driver Stuck In A 70's Horror Movie?" comic rather Nighthawk's simpler premise.
Regardless, as many have pointed out, none of that is blame, yet many fans, including Jude terror chose to react as if it is. To make matters worse all of the stuff he got wrong about the direct market served to do one thing, make everything look like Marvels fault. By getting nearly all his fact wrong, he could make that case. he painted a picture of Marvel not wanting to grow the market, Marvel forcing retailers into a non returnable model so they could produce shitty comics with no fear of returns. Marvel eating babies and raping childhoods. When called out he reacts even worse. he attacks the attackers, claims he doesn't need to base opinions on correct information. Copies and pastes a Wikipedia entry which doesn't really support his claim (and has many of the issues that plague Wiki entries) Claims "i am not a journalist" (as if not being a journalist makes it ok to lie to prove a point) and attacks those who claim they are for not covering a story that really isn't a story.
but isn't this his whole MO? his website was built on capitalizing on and fueling fan anger. its donald trump for comics. he lived off people being mad at DC for years now. Has rebirth killed that? If people like DC again does he have to pivot to the good old standby for geek hate, Marvel?
This whole thing really could tuck nicely into the discussion about journalism in the episode 1621 thread if peter and bralinator are done fighting.
I suppose if a publisher wanted to push new titles, couldn't they make the first 3-4 issues of some titles returnable, so that local shops could be encouraged to have plenty of issues on hand without the big risk they currently carry?
That would mean I would no longer be able to get my 25% off discount from my LCS. I’d get 15% off tops, but it might end the 10% off new comics deal they’ve had from the day the doors opened in the mid-’80s. And say sayonara to huge DCBS discounts while you’re at it.
Book returnability is what killed TSR. They has shipped a lot of their paperback novels for a Christmas season, and Borders had no money to pay them for what they had sold, so they just returned everything on the shelves instead of paying for what they had sold. Not only did it mean TSR didn't get paid for all the books they DID sell over the holiday season, but they had no shelf presence. Poof, gone, bought by the Magic Cards people.
The "good old days" of newsstand distribution killed Gold Key, Hervey, Charlton, Warren, etc... by 1982, and it'll come back around the same time as radio drama, pulp magazines, home milk delivery and the Dumont Network.
Plus, there are no chains of comic shops that come close in size to the level of Borders. True, it wouldn’t take as big a disaster as Borders going out of business to significantly hurt Marvel or DC, but I think they could absorb the loss of a three- or four-store chain, especially if they put a time limit (say, six months) on how long an item is returnable. Which I think they would have to do given the back-issue nature of the business.
Independent publishers, though, would probably drop like flies.
But I do agree that it will never happen.
That show just exploded with the college crowd. I apologize to all of you guys for that; I really mean it.
Around two weeks ago, I went to a local dvd/game store. They had dozens of each of the first 3 seasons of Family Guy dvds in the bargin bins for $3.99 each.