According to ComicBook.com, the latest pre-order success is Marvel's Champions #1 which has hit a whopping 400,000 issues!! This has to be a combination of exclusive covers from retailers and the 1:1000 cover too, but it's never spun that way, is it?
Matthew Mueller writes:
Pre-orders for Champions #1 have already crossed over the 400,000 mark, partly due to its vibrant roster of young heroes and also partly due to the well-known track record of Waid and Ramos.
"We couldn't be more thrilled with the response to the new Champions series," SVP of Sales and Marketing David Gabriel told ComicBook.com. "Hitting the 400K mark shows that the entire comics industry is ready and waiting for the story Mark Waid and Humberto Ramos have to tell. As the weeks go on, I imagine that excitement will hit a fever pitch with fans and we're not done yet. Between the launch parties and other Marketing initiatives, there's a lot to be excited about with Champions right now."
In spite of the reasons for the success cited by the writer and the marketing shill, everyone knows GameStop and Hot Topic likely both have variants, but I suspect most comic shops ordered on the low side for this largely unproven book. However, another comics publisher, Scholastic, has allegedly made a huge order for this title. They run book fairs at schools and have their own variant of Champions #1. So that's probably the main driver of these numbers. Don't know if Loot Crate is involved, but I think if that were the case we'd be seeing north of a half-million easy. With Scholastic involved, this could be a very good thing if it turns out that Marvel's efforts to reach a younger audience here further make it a viable outlet for other publishers too.
As for the book itself? I'm not too pleased with much of Marvel's output these days, but I do hope the book reaches its audience and that they like what they see/read. Waid and Ramos at the helm doesn't do much for me, though I'm CLEARLY not the target demo. The cynic in me wonders what numbers for issues #2 & #3 will be and how long before we see several copies of this book in the .50 cent bins...
A single issue at a school book fair? I've not seen that before. I wonder how that will do. I do know that Scholastic sells a bunch of Ms. Marvel trades through the book fairs. I talked with the lady running the setup at my daughter's orientation last spring about it. They had a display set up right beside the register with a bunch of comic trades.
A single issue at a school book fair? I've not seen that before. I wonder how that will do. I do know that Scholastic sells a bunch of Ms. Marvel trades through the book fairs. I talked with the lady running the setup at my daughter's orientation last spring about it. They had a display set up right beside the register with a bunch of comic trades.
It surprised me as well. Bleeding Cool has been looking for the Schlastic variant to show up, but hasn't seen it yet. The trades makes sense, or even a square-bound book. Maybe that's what it will be? A squarebound edition? Could they do that and still include it with the floppy numbers?
The trades makes sense, or even a square-bound book. Maybe that's what it will be? A squarebound edition? Could they do that and still include it with the floppy numbers?
If it’s square-bound, it will have a different price. And if it has a different price, it will need a different UPC code (and Scholastic might need it to have an ISBN as well, but I'm not sure), which makes it a separate publication. They could still combine the different editions by saying simply the first issues sold X number of copies and be technically accurate.
The trades makes sense, or even a square-bound book. Maybe that's what it will be? A squarebound edition? Could they do that and still include it with the floppy numbers?
If it’s square-bound, it will have a different price. And if it has a different price, it will need a different UPC code (and Scholastic might need it to have an ISBN as well, but I'm not sure), which makes it a separate publication. They could still combine the different editions by saying simply the first issues sold X number of copies and be technically accurate.
That's what I thought, so I guess it will very likely be the floppy versions. It's a bit hard to ascertain whether these earlier Scholastic publishings are traditional floppies or not. MyComicShop has the Scooby Doo series, and I've seen some DC Lego books, along with some magazines Scholastic has sold. This may be a first, although Marvel has had a relationship with Scholastic for some time now.
"...However, another comics publisher, Scholastic, has allegedly made a huge order for this title. They run book fairs at schools and have their own variant of Champions #1. So that's probably the main driver of these numbers. Don't know if Loot Crate is involved, but I think if that were the case we'd be seeing north of a half-million easy. With Scholastic involved, this could be a very good thing if it turns out that Marvel's efforts to reach a younger audience here further make it a viable outlet for other publishers too.
I'm very excited about this. Scholastic is a Juggernaut. Single issues at a school book fair would be a great impulse buy, and they could move massive quantities. Not to mention simple tack-on for the classroom order forms. I could easily see my girls grabbing a Champions issue at the school book fair... those things are a cash cow at our school (almost like Black Friday for primary school kids).
This is a great idea to introduce kids to the Marvel Universe.
This weekend while nursing a cold, perusing the internet, I notice my favorite video game series put out a solicit to pre-order the latest installment/version. To entice me, for a few shekels more than what I'd pay in the stores, I get the soundtrack (this series always has great music) on DC, some cool stickers, a keychain, artbooks, etc.
I couldn't give them my paypal money fast enough.
Which brought to mind this thread:
- Why did I waste no time preordering this yet I agonize over everything on my DCBS order? Is it a matter of time (video games release maybe...MAYBE...annually compared to a monthly comic order)?
- What if comics added enticements to get people to pre-order. Granted we're in a drug-dealer state now...they got us so why throw in bonuses. But what if? And what could those incentives/enticement be?
(The game is Harvest Moon. It's a farming sim that's very relaxing because all you do is farm, tend to livestock, get married, have a kid...you don't kill anyone and leveling up usually just means you get a better watering can.)
(Go ahead and point and laugh. It's a very theraputic game that keeps the mind-goblins away. :) )
Why did I waste no time preordering this yet I agonize over everything on my DCBS order? Is it a matter of time (video games release maybe...MAYBE...annually compared to a monthly comic order)?
How many video games do you buy each year? Probably only a small handful, maybe as many as a dozen. I think that’s the difference.
What if comics added enticements to get people to pre-order. Granted we're in a drug-dealer state now...they got us so why throw in bonuses. But what if? And what could those incentives/enticement be?
You mean like offering plastic Green Lantern rings of various colors to promote your big GL event? Or a black armband for your “Death of the Superman” storyline (or was that for the Punisher—or both)? Or “Vote Lex” or “Vote Howard the Duck” pins? Or Team Myxyzptlk and Team Bat-Mite pins for the World’s Funnest comic? Or... I could go on and on. Yeah, it's been done—bookmarks, postcards, pins, armbands, stickers, and even a balsa wood glider to promote Madman—but it's an added expense (design, production, shipping, handling at Diamond) that I can’t see anyone doing on a monthly basis.
(The game is Harvest Moon. It's a farming sim that's very relaxing because all you do is farm, tend to livestock, get married, have a kid...you don't kill anyone and leveling up usually just means you get a better watering can.)
(Go ahead and point and laugh. It's a very theraputic game that keeps the mind-goblins away. :) )
I played the first one years ago and had to quit... I could tell I was about to get sucked in 100℅
You mean like offering plastic Green Lantern rings of various colors to promote your big GL event? Or a black armband for your “Death of the Superman” storyline (or was that for the Punisher—or both)? Or “Vote Lex” or “Vote Howard the Duck” pins? Or Team Myxyzptlk and Team Bat-Mite pins for the World’s Funnest comic? Or... I could go on and on. Yeah, it's been done—bookmarks, postcards, pins, armbands, stickers, and even a balsa wood glider to promote Madman—but it's an added expense (design, production, shipping, handling at Diamond) that I can’t see anyone doing on a monthly basis.
And many of those were incentives for the retailer, not the individual buyer. I think for the individual buyer the incentives are those variant covers we love so much, and that's about it. And yes, the funnybooks are expensive enough as it is for publishers to print.
I like the balsa wood glider idea though. That's pretty cool. :)
(The game is Harvest Moon. It's a farming sim that's very relaxing because all you do is farm, tend to livestock, get married, have a kid...you don't kill anyone and leveling up usually just means you get a better watering can.)
(Go ahead and point and laugh. It's a very theraputic game that keeps the mind-goblins away. :) )
I played the first one years ago and had to quit... I could tell I was about to get sucked in 100℅
It's like an anti-video game. You take over a farm and have to develop it by weeding, planting crops, raising livestock, and all that good stuff. Along the way you have to make friends, and successfully woo a spouse (later editions of the game allow you to play as either gender), have kids, etc. There are a number of mini-stories with different characters, and with a few exceptions, there's no real "end" to it. You can play until you're bored with it (by which time a new version has come out), or keep building your farm into the most productive thing known to man.
It sounds bone-crushingly monotonous, and in many ways it is, but there's something about it that will keep you playing it if you're really into it.
Best bet is to avoid the more current Harvest Moon releases which have veered off from the original series (which were imported from the Japanese) and are pretty much for die hard idiots (like me) only. A much more fun and immersive experience can be found by playing the Story of Seasons game for the DS...better graphics and gameplay...or if you absolutely HAVE to kill something, pick up one of the Rune Factory games which are another offshoot of the Harvest Moon franchise.
Thanks for the overview. I remember many, many moons ago, playing a game called SimCity for so long it would be mid-morning the next day before I saved it and turned the game off. After one too many nights/mornings like that I had to stop altogether.
I built a money making city once in sim city and let the PC run all night in fastest speed. Then I built a residential zone in morning and it went to pot. Apparently my people loved population 79,000.
Sim City is the single most frustrating and addicting game I've ever played
I heard some pretty harsh reviews about No Man's Sky, and I think it's a PS4 exclusive, right? I have a WiiU and an XboxOne. What I heard sounded right up my alley, though.
And now we're officially thread de-railed. Sorry. :)
It also has a PC version. I don’t have a PC or a PS4, but it sounds fascinating. The harsh reviews all basically boil down to “nothing happens” or “boring”—that and the fact that the servers for online gamers got bogged down—but it sounds fascinating.
in an attempt to re-rail things, Its interesting that the heart of the two issues discussed, retainability and pre-ordering are both about moving the risk from one party to another, and what they get for it.
in the beginning the main risk was on the publisher. they footed the bill for everything, distributors, retail and consumers didn't put up any money, only time spent in moving and displaying (and reading) of product, and in the case of retail, floor space.
now since they didn't put up any risk, the money share for distributors and retail is smaller. When you combine the low price point, and low profit share, retailers eventually realized they could make more money with less work by devoting that floor space (the only thing they are risking in the equation) to other products. The distributors (which depending on who you ask are at best a shady business, and at worst a mob business) introduced the affidavit system on returns. No longer would they need to expend man hours counting returned covers for product that made pennies per issue, retailers and distributors just signed a statement saying X number of copies were returns and were destroyed. Just how much of a problem this caused is still debated, but its clear that in some cases, this meant distributors could report returns, get credit for them, then sell the comics to early direct market retailers (which at this point are stolen property, The Mile High II collection was exactly this. Unopened cases of silver & bronze age comics that were reported as returns and "destroyed" for years), or often they wouldn't do anything with them, just pitch them or warehouse them as soon as they came in. The profit margin was so low no one cared if they didn't even hit the shipping truck, the real money for them was in selling higher print run, higher cover price magazines like Sports Illustrated, Time and Playboy. the comics were small ancillary income that requires just as much work.
these reasons among many others led to the collapse of newsstand distribution for comics, one of those factors was the direct market. early comic stores often bought from distributors, but many were too small and couldn't get accounts with distributors that really made money off you, if you were stocking Sports Illustrated, Time, Playboy etc. those comics were returnable, but the stores really didn't want to return them. Unlike the newsstands, they also sold back issues. in the early days stores made a much larger part of their income from back issues. unsold stock was a good thing, back issues were the only way a new reader could catch up, and if an older issue becomes a key then its value would skyrocket beyond its cover price. Stores didn't want to return comics, so they were eager to give up returnability in exchange for far deeper discounts. they assumed risk from the publishers and got a great deal for it. Old books just become new back issues, and for the most part with a fairly small total number of titles available and a fairly homogeneous and consistent fanbase, they could do a decent job of anticipating demand and could order enough books to satisfy that demand plus have some left over for the future.
This was a pretty effective system for a quite some time, but again for various reasons that system nearly collapsed too. One factor, small at first but eventually much more important was the move toward collected editions. Now publishers were competing with back issues. New readers could more easily catch up in trade paperbacks, that remained in print and at cover price for much longer. they were also more easily available, and were in regular retail as well. As the trade grew, and eventually became a better way for many to not just catch up, but to read going forward, the back issue market changed drastically. the slightly above cover price non key new comic market shrank, leaving the back issue market one of increasingly expensive and increasing desperate key issues at exorbitant prices and dollar and quarter books for the rest.
unable to sell large numbers of back issues among other economic factors led to cutting orders to only what will sell quickly and definitely. retailers attempted to move the risk that they took from the publishers to the consumers in the form of preorders. this way they dont buy the comic unless someone has ordered it. (just looks at Wild Pig's recent move to eliminate anything but pull books, a move more and more shops are doing) many incentivize this by offering discounts. DCBS is a great example of this. huge discount in exchange for pre-purchasing and pre-paying for them. small risk, small reward but they make it up in volume (the walmart model) for many brick and mortar retailers, this is tough, very few comic shops have enough customers to generate enough income at those margins to stay open. the stores near me offer ranges from 10-25% off for pull list club members, on top of a flat one time fee. for many of them the only incentive for preordering is you wont get your books otherwise.
so thats where we are now. Who assumes the risk? Marvel and DC assume the risk of production. if no one orders the books at all, consumers, retailers, distributors, aren't hurt at all, but Marvel, DC and any publisher that pays its creative team, still have to pay those people, even if they dont wind up printing a single copy. Image and many indy companies move a great deal of risk to the creative teams, who dont get any money unless the product sells. the exchange is that if its even a moderate success, the creative team will make most of the money.
If the risk is moved back to publishers, that wouldn't have helped nighthawk, in fact just the opposite, if all the risk is on publishers, then they will have to publish only the most risk free comics. if you think we are in a sea of bat and spider books, no one would take a chance publishing Knighthawk, the Vision, Squirrel Girl etc. the broad diversity of comics we see today is a result of that shift.
unable to sell large numbers of back issues among other economic factors led to cutting orders to only what will sell quickly and definitely. retailers attempted to move the risk that they took from the publishers to the consumers in the form of preorders. this way they dont buy the comic unless someone has ordered it.
You make it sound like pre-ordering is a fairly recent occurrence, but the concept of incentivising customers to preorder was around long before trade paperbacks became a real factor. There were lots of stores offering discounts for preorders back in the mid-’80s when back issues moved at a brisk pace. There may well be many stores today in very small markets that do not order books beyond what is pre-ordered by their customers, but they are overwhelmingly the exception, not the rule. The risk today is still firmly placed on the retailer, not the customer, and not Marvel or DC.
Marvel and DC assume the risk of production. if no one orders the books at all, consumers, retailers, distributors, aren't hurt at all, but Marvel, DC and any publisher that pays its creative team, still have to pay those people, even if they dont wind up printing a single copy.
I’d be willing to wager that neither Marvel nor DC have published a book in the last 30 years that didn’t make enough money to cover the creative production expenses. That risk is so small as to be statistically non-existent.
If the risk is moved back to publishers, that wouldn't have helped nighthawk, in fact just the opposite, if all the risk is on publishers, then they will have to publish only the most risk free comics. if you think we are in a sea of bat and spider books, no one would take a chance publishing Knighthawk, the Vision, Squirrel Girl etc. the broad diversity of comics we see today is a result of that shift.
Yes, the broad diversity of comics we have available today is a result of the non-returnable system. But that diversity has built over time and has established itself now. If all comics became returnable starting tomorrow, Marvel and DC would still be flooding the market with 40–50+ books each month just like they did back in the '70s, and not all of them would be—or could be with that many being published—risk-averse, just like they weren't in the '70s. Marvel wouldn’t suddenly stop publishing Ms. Marvel or Squirrel Girl—those are established books now with steady audiences. On the contrary, they want to build on that success, and DC wants a piece of that pie as well. And as I said in an earlier post, I don't think retailers will suddenly start ordering crazy numbers of books they know they won't be able to sell. It will cost them money to return any overages, and shipping isn't exactly cheap these days. I would expect them to up their orders somewhat on #1, #2, and #3 issues, but otherwise I doubt there would be much of a bump.
The smaller publishers would have a much more difficult time. There would definitely be a thinning of the herd.
Comments
Peter vs. Rooster 1
The first time he scrapped his knee.
Matthew Mueller writes: In spite of the reasons for the success cited by the writer and the marketing shill, everyone knows GameStop and Hot Topic likely both have variants, but I suspect most comic shops ordered on the low side for this largely unproven book. However, another comics publisher, Scholastic, has allegedly made a huge order for this title. They run book fairs at schools and have their own variant of Champions #1. So that's probably the main driver of these numbers. Don't know if Loot Crate is involved, but I think if that were the case we'd be seeing north of a half-million easy. With Scholastic involved, this could be a very good thing if it turns out that Marvel's efforts to reach a younger audience here further make it a viable outlet for other publishers too.
As for the book itself? I'm not too pleased with much of Marvel's output these days, but I do hope the book reaches its audience and that they like what they see/read. Waid and Ramos at the helm doesn't do much for me, though I'm CLEARLY not the target demo. The cynic in me wonders what numbers for issues #2 & #3 will be and how long before we see several copies of this book in the .50 cent bins...
I'm very excited about this. Scholastic is a Juggernaut.
Single issues at a school book fair would be a great impulse buy, and they could move massive quantities. Not to mention simple tack-on for the classroom order forms. I could easily see my girls grabbing a Champions issue at the school book fair... those things are a cash cow at our school (almost like Black Friday for primary school kids).
This is a great idea to introduce kids to the Marvel Universe.
This weekend while nursing a cold, perusing the internet, I notice my favorite video game series put out a solicit to pre-order the latest installment/version. To entice me, for a few shekels more than what I'd pay in the stores, I get the soundtrack (this series always has great music) on DC, some cool stickers, a keychain, artbooks, etc.
I couldn't give them my paypal money fast enough.
Which brought to mind this thread:
- Why did I waste no time preordering this yet I agonize over everything on my DCBS order? Is it a matter of time (video games release maybe...MAYBE...annually compared to a monthly comic order)?
- What if comics added enticements to get people to pre-order. Granted we're in a drug-dealer state now...they got us so why throw in bonuses. But what if? And what could those incentives/enticement be?
(The game is Harvest Moon. It's a farming sim that's very relaxing because all you do is farm, tend to livestock, get married, have a kid...you don't kill anyone and leveling up usually just means you get a better watering can.)
(Go ahead and point and laugh. It's a very theraputic game that keeps the mind-goblins away. :) )
I could tell I was about to get sucked in 100℅
I like the balsa wood glider idea though. That's pretty cool. :)
It sounds bone-crushingly monotonous, and in many ways it is, but there's something about it that will keep you playing it if you're really into it.
Best bet is to avoid the more current Harvest Moon releases which have veered off from the original series (which were imported from the Japanese) and are pretty much for die hard idiots (like me) only. A much more fun and immersive experience can be found by playing the Story of Seasons game for the DS...better graphics and gameplay...or if you absolutely HAVE to kill something, pick up one of the Rune Factory games which are another offshoot of the Harvest Moon franchise.
Not that I'm into it or anything... :)
This might make me 'fall off the wagon,' but I do like the sound of it.
Sim City is the single most frustrating and addicting game I've ever played
tenthree least favorite games I've put lots of time into.And now we're officially thread de-railed. Sorry. :)
And this thread was pretty much done anyway.
in the beginning the main risk was on the publisher. they footed the bill for everything, distributors, retail and consumers didn't put up any money, only time spent in moving and displaying (and reading) of product, and in the case of retail, floor space.
now since they didn't put up any risk, the money share for distributors and retail is smaller. When you combine the low price point, and low profit share, retailers eventually realized they could make more money with less work by devoting that floor space (the only thing they are risking in the equation) to other products. The distributors (which depending on who you ask are at best a shady business, and at worst a mob business) introduced the affidavit system on returns. No longer would they need to expend man hours counting returned covers for product that made pennies per issue, retailers and distributors just signed a statement saying X number of copies were returns and were destroyed. Just how much of a problem this caused is still debated, but its clear that in some cases, this meant distributors could report returns, get credit for them, then sell the comics to early direct market retailers (which at this point are stolen property, The Mile High II collection was exactly this. Unopened cases of silver & bronze age comics that were reported as returns and "destroyed" for years), or often they wouldn't do anything with them, just pitch them or warehouse them as soon as they came in. The profit margin was so low no one cared if they didn't even hit the shipping truck, the real money for them was in selling higher print run, higher cover price magazines like Sports Illustrated, Time and Playboy. the comics were small ancillary income that requires just as much work.
these reasons among many others led to the collapse of newsstand distribution for comics, one of those factors was the direct market. early comic stores often bought from distributors, but many were too small and couldn't get accounts with distributors that really made money off you, if you were stocking Sports Illustrated, Time, Playboy etc. those comics were returnable, but the stores really didn't want to return them. Unlike the newsstands, they also sold back issues. in the early days stores made a much larger part of their income from back issues. unsold stock was a good thing, back issues were the only way a new reader could catch up, and if an older issue becomes a key then its value would skyrocket beyond its cover price. Stores didn't want to return comics, so they were eager to give up returnability in exchange for far deeper discounts. they assumed risk from the publishers and got a great deal for it. Old books just become new back issues, and for the most part with a fairly small total number of titles available and a fairly homogeneous and consistent fanbase, they could do a decent job of anticipating demand and could order enough books to satisfy that demand plus have some left over for the future.
This was a pretty effective system for a quite some time, but again for various reasons that system nearly collapsed too. One factor, small at first but eventually much more important was the move toward collected editions. Now publishers were competing with back issues. New readers could more easily catch up in trade paperbacks, that remained in print and at cover price for much longer. they were also more easily available, and were in regular retail as well. As the trade grew, and eventually became a better way for many to not just catch up, but to read going forward, the back issue market changed drastically. the slightly above cover price non key new comic market shrank, leaving the back issue market one of increasingly expensive and increasing desperate key issues at exorbitant prices and dollar and quarter books for the rest.
unable to sell large numbers of back issues among other economic factors led to cutting orders to only what will sell quickly and definitely. retailers attempted to move the risk that they took from the publishers to the consumers in the form of preorders. this way they dont buy the comic unless someone has ordered it. (just looks at Wild Pig's recent move to eliminate anything but pull books, a move more and more shops are doing) many incentivize this by offering discounts. DCBS is a great example of this. huge discount in exchange for pre-purchasing and pre-paying for them. small risk, small reward but they make it up in volume (the walmart model) for many brick and mortar retailers, this is tough, very few comic shops have enough customers to generate enough income at those margins to stay open. the stores near me offer ranges from 10-25% off for pull list club members, on top of a flat one time fee. for many of them the only incentive for preordering is you wont get your books otherwise.
so thats where we are now. Who assumes the risk? Marvel and DC assume the risk of production. if no one orders the books at all, consumers, retailers, distributors, aren't hurt at all, but Marvel, DC and any publisher that pays its creative team, still have to pay those people, even if they dont wind up printing a single copy. Image and many indy companies move a great deal of risk to the creative teams, who dont get any money unless the product sells. the exchange is that if its even a moderate success, the creative team will make most of the money.
If the risk is moved back to publishers, that wouldn't have helped nighthawk, in fact just the opposite, if all the risk is on publishers, then they will have to publish only the most risk free comics. if you think we are in a sea of bat and spider books, no one would take a chance publishing Knighthawk, the Vision, Squirrel Girl etc. the broad diversity of comics we see today is a result of that shift.
The smaller publishers would have a much more difficult time. There would definitely be a thinning of the herd.
She said how much he loved this place, I said how much he was missed.