Episode 1638 Talkback - Comic Talk
Adam_Murdough
Posts: 506
In this savory slumgullion of comics-related miscellanea, we assess recent changes to Marvel and DC's policies on pricing and digital availability, look back on recent Superman movies, look forward to the new Rogue One ongoing comic, and open some Christmas presents. Plus Muddle the Murd, and the official announcement of the CGS 'Best of 2016' Awards! (1:24:20)
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All joking aside, I've always thought the digital comics strategy of both companies has been one long, nervous shell game on their parts. Neither fully embracing nor promoting it, they seem to understand the practice represents the final nail in the "floppy" coffin, but must continue with them in order to appease not only the dwindling fan base, but to continue cash streams from retailes, distributors, printers, and everyone else in the food chain. Collecting pixels (i.e. "digital comics") has never appealed to me on any level, so I'll be reading and collecting the paper comics until they finally pull the plug on that format...which I can see happening within the next five years (if that).
Today, I'm currently running several eBay auctions on the first ten to twelve issues of many of those titles (Darth Vader, Secret Wars, etc), and when these auctions are done, I will still be left with digital copies of the books, and also a small profit on some of those titles. Will it have been worth the effort? Not exactly, but it's kind of fun, and it's helped to rationalize continuing my habit in spite of the ever increasing cover prices on some of my preferred Marvel titles.
However, these days, I am getting only a couple of Marvel books, other than the occasional Epic collection or Omnibus, so I can see how the Marvel Unlimited app will be the digital reading portal of choice for many readers in the future. If I'm a year behind on my Marvel reading, what do I care if it takes 6 months before I can read them with the MU app?
I can see this actually hurting Marvel's floppy sales, and not making much of a difference on their digital sales either. Unlike @Mark_Engblom, I'm not predicting the failure of the floppy comic so quickly, especially with companies like Alterna Comics experimenting with a return to newsprint and cheaper books ($2 per issue), but who knows what their success rate will be? This arrangement apparently wasn't a "win-win" deal for Marvel, so it's being phased out. As for DC adding digital codes? It isn't going to make me start picking up a title just because it has a free digital copy with it, but I will consider it a bonus, just as I did Marvel.
Side note which I never stated on the show. I always considered the Marvel digital codes a bonus too. I am just disappointed with this direction now.
Having the digital codes from DC won't make me buy any more titles either. Especially with how limited it will be, it is just a bonus now too.
Thanks for chiming in everyone. :smile:
For new material, I am pretty much down to just a couple Marvel books -the Mark Waid and Jason Aaron written books.
Digital codes have never really meant anything to me.
I think it'll backfire if Marvel digital codes to other books. Sometimes when you try to expand reader (or viewership with TV), you lose your foundation consumers. Will the new readers outweigh (or balance out) the long timers lost? We'll see.
M
Don't post on here as much as i should anymore but this conversation compelled me.
1) The digital code loss at marvel is a big one for me. I purchase around 30 single issues a week, the way i have time to read all those is by using the digital codes for my marvel books, i get to keep my physical collection but read on train or at work. I also review Deadpool issues and having digital copies greatly assists rereads and image sourcing.
Now i am an international buyer so that means i spend basically double US cover price for my books (or quadruple DCBS price :smiley: ) so that $1 difference is $2 for me. now i know that a digital code isn't $1 but it did add extra value to my purchase that was once there. Now i know marvel is offerring Promotional issues instead. but if you know marvel digital you always had three issues that change each week that are free. so they are replacing it with something they always offered even without a purchase.
I'm going to be dropping a lot of marvel books, not because i want to or can't afford them but more just for time to read and value for my dollars
2) Chris , i love you buddy, but you broke my widdle wade heart. Talking about how marvel dosent let characters breath and progress with great creator runs. You used Deadpool as an example of the negative example. While i give you the fact he has had over saturation in the market (most spin offs being out of continuity ). The main Deadpool title is exactly the thing you keep saying is missing at Marvel. Gerry Duggan has had a treamendous run at marvel on Deadpool he has been on the book as long Aaron has been on Thor and delivering the same quality and tight continuity across the run. Plus he has been more prolific than aarons thor. 70 + issues of the main title not to mention one shot specials, annuals, Uncanny Avengers vol (which both features and ties heavily to Deadpool Continuity) . All this while telling great stories featuring the character that many fan think will be classic stories remembered for years. Joe Kelly is the Deadpool master. but right after him in most hardcore DP fans eyes is Gerry Duggan. Along with Thor this is the title other mainstream books should be looking to to re embrace that great creator run. but no hard feelings buddy i understand the DP shelf is crowded but part of the reason is the main book is gold. Hell over most of the last decade and a half Deadpool has had three writers total for his main 616 story Fabin Nicieza , Daniel Way and Gerry Duggan. while humor is part of his appeal i also think that under the nose of a lot of old school comic fans but being picked up by the new fans this is where the solid creator runs on a character have been happening. this is how DP went from D lister to A lister at marvel in a short space.
So chris my homework to you my outstanding comic historian is TPB Deadpool : the Good the Bad and the Ugly (this is the classic of Duggan's run and establishing of his run post Brian Posehan co writer and is a punch to the gut, its not all laughs here ).... as well as/or instead of, the recent Deadpool Vol 5 issues 20 (this is "a very special issue" where Deadpool spends a night talking with a suicidal girl. shows this book is more than most folks think it is )
I did read the Masters of Kung Fu Omnibus. PICK THIS UP!!!!!
I had high hopes for the movie, especially after so many years of alarming news and rumors from the various (and mercifully) scrubbed Superman projects prior to Bryan Singer coming on board.
Sadly, Superman Returns was a huge mixed bag, with the negatives ultimately outweighing the positives. Without going into a whole treatise, here's a basic overview of what worked and what didn't work for me:
What worked:
1. The intro credits. Wonderfully updating (and cleverly reversing the direction) of the epic opening sequence from Superman: The Movie was a pure nostalgic rush, bursting with the promise of high adventure (which...sadly...went largely unfulfilled).
2. The pastiche/tribute vibe incorporating many elements from the beloved (i.e. "first two") Reeve films. Loved hearing the John Williams themes sprinkled liberally throughout John Ottman's score, the exact replica of the Kent farmstead, and seeing Marlon Brando's Jor-El "resurrected" for a brief scene. This same desire to invoke the Reeve films would also be part of the film's undoing, but wanted to acknowledge that some of that nostalgic riffing was appreciated.
3. Brandon Routh: The actor did a great Clark Kent, which wasn't quite the uber-nerd caricature Christopher Reeve opted for. His Superman was great too, though best when directly channeling (if not outright impersonating) Reeve as Superman. I really felt like he gave it his all.
4. Superman's airplane rescue and triumphant reception at the baseball stadium. 'Nuff said.
5. Sam Huntington as Jimmy Olsen was great...he struck the right balance between friendly guy and wisenheimer without wallowing in the "golly gee" excess of previous TV/movie Jimmies or coming off as a hipster jerk.
What Didn't Work:
1. Lex Luthor: One of the weakest elements of the original Donner films was the wonky reimagining of Lex Luthor as an eccentric genius with a real estate fetish surrounding himself with nincompoops and bimbos. Sadly, director Bryan Singer felt this was a strength and continued the tradition. Kevin Spacey's Luthor and Parker Posey's...whatever her name was....turned out to be the same old, same old. Despite glimmers of real menace, Luthor was (once again) largely a campy caricature. The point in the movie when it became clear that Luthor was, once again, hatching a giant "land grab via mass disaster" scheme was such a beat-down. What a waste.
2. Super-Stalker: As Chris and others have mentioned, the wildly out-of-character shots of Superman spying on Lois Lane and her family sent my jaw dropping. Adding to his already compromised emotional maturity (leaving Earth for 5 years to mope in the rubble of Krypton!), the deeply weird peeping reduced the Man of Steel to the level of a creepy loner lost in his fantasies. Definitely not the guy Jor-El trained for twelve years before unleashing him on the world.
3. Kate Bosworth: The utterly miscast Bosworth was a complete non-entity, bringing zero charisma and competence to a role that absolutely demands those qualities. I didn't buy her as Lois Lane for one single second, not only because she was far too young, but also because she radiated "I don't want to be here" in every scene she appeared in. Much like Margot Kidder's very unappealing Lois in Superman II, Bosworth made me wonder "what on Earth does Superman see in this woman"?
4. The Kid: What a dreadful place to take this story, and I can't understand (to this day) why Singer and his pet writers thought this was an intriguing, viable direction to take Superman. Fatherhood is too important and profound to casually rope Superman into it as a kinda-sorta sideline "baby daddy". Creatively and morally obtuse.
5. The Messiah Complex: I'm not sure what it is about modern Superman movies, but the almost psychotic insistence upon positioning him as a messianic figure bores me to no end. I'm talking about all the scenes of Superman hovering (angel-like) accompanied by reverent heavenly choruses. Superman, at his core, is a figure of movement and rugged action...not inert, overly reverential sci-fi divinity.
6. The Costume: The dark maroons, dingy blues, dopey Speedo trunks, and the nonsensical 3D S-symbol made it clear Hollywood is deeply embarrassed by a more traditional Superman, giving us an early indication of where things would go over the next 10+ years. Now, even the publisher of Superman's comic books is ashamed of his traditional look...much of which you can trace back to Superman Returns (which made it okay to start radically fiddling with the costume design and color scheme).
7. Ben Hubbard: Back in Superman: The Movie, when Clark assured his elderly mother that neighbor Ben Hubbard would "be happy to help out" around the farm in his absence, I don't think Clark intended for him to "help out" Ma Kent as much as this movie implied he'd been "helping out" all these years. Okay, I'm only joking on this one. Sort of.
So there you go. An ambitious movie with some glimmers of greatness, but ultimately brought down by its director's quirks and faulty instincts.
Otherwise, the film’s action scenes occur far too sparingly. You don't get to see Superman in costume until nearly an hour into the film and Superman doesn’t even punch anyone or anything in the movie. Not even when he is being beaten by Lex’s thugs. He only lifts heavy objects throughout the movie. And as for Kevin Spacey’s version of Lex Luthor (a casting decision that was better in theory than what ended up on-screen) it's essentially an over-the-top Gene Hackman impersonation, just more sadistic. Audiences wanted a new adventure, not another Lex Luthor land-grab.
And Lois is portrayed very poorly by Kate Bosworth. She's reduced to little more than a damsel-in-distress and has zero chemistry with Brandon Routh. And as for their murderous son, he isn't much more than a useless, glum and a distracting element to an already lackluster movie.
Superman Returns never felt like the start of something new, but rather a send off for the Christopher Reeve era of the franchise which never got the appropriate sendoff it deserved. I believe it's still worth a look for fans, as it's probably the last Superman movie we'll get where the primary function of the character is more about hope and growth instead of raw power.
Kent is one of the characters I don't like seeing as a father. It's one of the reasons I haven't read Batman since Damien has been introduced.
M
You're right about it seeming like a send off to the Reeve(/Donner) era. Is it a coincidence you can get Superman, II: The Donner Cut, & Returns on 1 Blu-ray Disc?
M
As for the film itself, I remember sort of liking it but to be honest it's been a few years since I saw it.
Too bad a few good scenes a good film don't make.
Superman Returns is a very weird movie. Part remake of the original Donner movie, pseudo sequel to Superman 2, part reboot and just very boring.
As for whether it's a ripoff or not, the cover prices would be the same as they are now even if Marvel had never introduced the free codes. This goes back to the old concept of be careful of what you give away for free, because if you ever take it away, it will not go well. I've posted this story on this forum before, but it here it is again for anyone who missed it.
I have Marvel Unlimited and I just wait for the sales on Comixology. Sale waiting has worked out so well for me. I got both volumes of the Allred Silver Surfer run up to #8 of the second series for .99 a pop. Even though I have MU I like the reading experience on Comixology much better. I have done the same thing for the Aaron Dr. Strange run. I just wait. I have bought way more digital comics than floppies in 2015-2016 and I really like having not to deal with the paper.
The Aaron Thor run trades are on sale this week for like $4-5 and that keeps me from the floppies even more. We are all comic readers but I am a reader who is appreciating the reading with out the collecting now.
I still enjoy some bin diving by going to a show or a con and grabbing some $1 back issues that still have non-expired codes. I just don't need the books anymore.
I don't feel it applies to this case, though, because in the case of the Red Cross starting to charge for donuts (or the NYTimes and others starting to charge for access to their content online), Marvel messaged to us from the beginning that these codes were added value, because their introduction was tied to a substantial price increase.
Remember-- they were rolled out at at time when there were still $2.99 books, that did not come with the codes. The codes only came with the $3.99 ones, and were described, right on the cover dress, as a "BONUS".
Here is how the Marvel press release back in 2012 that announced this move began: (You can read the whole press release, and some astute and now prescient coverage of what it will end up meaning, here at The Comic Book Critic)
Notice how Gabriel approaches this in his statement, that this is about bringing fans the best value. When you are talking about value, you are justifying price.
This is because he is having to argue why comics that the month before cost $3 for the same amount of story pages and now are going to cost a dollar more. Well, the answer is the digital code. That has added VALUE. So that is not a free gift. That is value you are paying for, at that new price-- they used this new "bonus" and "free" thing as a way to justify a substantial price increase, and now they are charging the same, but changing the deal on what you get.
I also notice that the cover branding-- where you would also find the new price-- would use the word "BONUS". The word "FREE" would be on the sticker inside. I think that was intentional. Bonus is the word to use when the consumer is deciding yes or no. Asking themselves, "What do I get for this price?" While, later, after deciding to buy, they are peeling that sticker, and they are supposed to feel, "I am getting something for free!" as if this was an act of generosity on the part of the publisher.
They know they can get away with it, because in the last 5 or so years, they and other publishers have normalized the idea of $4 single issues, so they figure their bonus digital copies can now feel like some kind of largess on their part-- a thing they were doing that the competition wasn't giving you anyway. But that is because we are now used to a comic being $4 and you just get the comic (and, of course, Marvel and in some cases DC, are now working to get us used to the $5 price). So they are changing the digital copy deal on us now, because they no longer need it to be something you were getting as part of the package, to justify a new price point.
Now they can spin it as something they were giving away for free in the first place, as if out of kindness. And now they are just going to give us something different, for free, and so how ungrateful would it be for us to complain about THAT??
Except that wasn't actually what these codes were back in 2012. They were "free", but they weren't free. They were part of the terms of a new agreement for what we would get now that we were paying a dollar more.
For me, at least, this change on Marvel's part is going to have me buying a lot less single issues. I partly justified continuing to so, even though some titles (like Waid's Avengers, which I have liked, but not nearly as much as Hickman) had started stacking up, and I was far enough behind on some of my reading that, at that point, I might as well have waiting and read them on Marvel Unlimited. But I kept my single buying going partly because I had this great trading relationship set up, and was basically getting two books for the DCBS price of one.
Well, now that he and I won't have anything to trade, I think for most all of my Marvel reading I will just take the 6 month gap and wait for Marvel Unlimited. I certainly have plenty of other books, especially from Image, to be reading on paper.
This is anecdotal, of course. I am not saying that how I was doing it is common enough to really factor into what this change means for Marvel, or to retailers. But figured I would give a personal anecdote of how I was using these codes, and what it did to my buying habits, to go along with talking about it overall.