Episode 1572 Talkback - Comic Talk
Pants
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Come in! Come in! Are you receiving us? The Geeks work against scheduling conflicts and hostile technological conditions to bring you this end-of-summer care package of Comic Talk, featuring a recap of Pants' exciting time at the Connecticut Comicon; a shocking Shop Talk segment built around a bold announcement from Chris and Bill of Wildpig Comics (teaser title: 'A Farewell to Floppies?...'); and a rash of rumination over our recent reading. (1:45:00)
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Good to have you guys back. As always great stuff. Looking forward to new spotlight!
The idea of removing new comics from our shop, save the reservist, has not fully crossed our minds. We have decided to pair back what we get, but we do have enough folks off the street that come in and pull from the new book rack. The previous owner ordered based on his tastes, and as such missed a lot of great titles (Walking Dead, Saga, Criminal - to name a few).
To reduce the deadbeat issue, anyone who sticks us with books gets one "oops". After that, the only way they can order from us is to prepay. Thankfully we haven't had that issue as of late (knock on wood).
Having been to Wildpig Comics, the two advantages we have going for our shop are that we are right in a pedestrian friendly downtown, with a park across the street and coffee/ice cream shops just down the sidewalk, and due to being in a smaller city, we have an 1100 square foot retail space to work with at a decent price. What we do not have going for us is population. We have an immediate population of 15,000 - with an extended population within 15 miles under 100,000. We have to make the most of what we have!
We also have migrated heavily to trades, especially for new readers. The idea of a trade only comic store just seems foreign to me, but I have to admit, it's definitely an appealing business model. You are selling complete stories/arcs, and there is a better page per $ point in most case that people feel like they are getting the better deal.
Keep up the great work!
http://thecomicforums.com/discussion/comment/88136/
That being said my son who is 11 has seen the solicits for the All New and All Different Marvel comics coming in October. I could tell him that maybe he should wait for the trades. I am thinking of telling him I'll match his chore money and cap it at $30 or about 7 titles. I don't think he will be buying enough to make DCBS worth the while for shipping. $4 comics suck man. They can't stay at $4 forever.
That article you linked to is a little strange. Those DC books are in book stores and its kind of like a $1 surcharge due to returnability. I would think this would send informed readers back to comic shops (which would be a good thing for comic shops).
I've tried to post longer comments twice, but they don't appear and I get a "Your comment is waiting for approval" message. No idea why. Maybe due to length?
I guess I don't have the space to get into the whys and wherefores, but what I wanted to point out was that http://www.comichron.com/ says that the raw numbers of new-release single issues are up over 12% this year, and are basically at a 20-year high.
People can say that this is due to retailers ordering 50 extra issues just to get a variant copy, but when the market for recent back issues of so many major series (Batman, Spider-Man, Thor) is so strong, the speculation theory doesn't explain it all.
Chris and Bill complement each other so well :)
I'm nowhere near NJ but was happy to learn that you guys are selling back issues online, so I'll definitely check that out.
One customer's choices:
I am lucky to have two fine shops where I live, and both are still in the new floppy game. I enjoy both- they have friendly staff and are fun to visit. Both ALSO have large back issue selection and I largely hit the shops for those. I do habitually drop by both for the 10-20 buck back issue purchase. The smaller shop has better pricing on back issues, and huge dollar bins where gems can be found. The larger shop has tons of space dedicated to new comics, back issues, trades, but also vintage toys, statues, genre-related art books, etc. and they host several great sales per year where back issues get priced to move- 50 cents, dollar, half off, etc.
For new books, I have ordered from DCBS for the discount for years. It's the only way I can avoid cutting titles that I love. In the past year I've gone digital with many titles, waiting for the dollar drop in price on them. Happy with the digital experience. With Marvel however, the floppy comes with the digital code for nearly everything, so those have stayed on my DCBS order. Of course the economics of that have affected any discount I get- to the point where after shipping costs, I am getting those books at close to- but not quite- cover price. So I may be close to starting up a pull file at one of the shops. It's basically a wash. I do love the convenience of getting my books from DCBS and their customer service is top notch. Honestly, that's hard to leave.
I've been a reservist elsewhere- I tried to be conscientious about it.. If I planned on dropping a title I'd just tell them to give me what was ordered and then stop ordering it for me. I know continuing to buy a title 2 issues after saying I wanted to drop it probably is above and beyond what a shop would expect but sometimes those books would find their way to another reservist jumping on and I wouldn't end up buying that book anyway. I just thought that was fair. I did give them 2 months notice when I moved as well, so they would stop my file without getting burned.
I have no doubt that behavior puts me in the minority. We live in an age where the consumer dictates so much in a lot of industries.. disruptions in print media and music industry are good examples.. Cable TV, that one hits close to home for me personally. I don't see that applying to most regular consumers of comics. I and many other customers do a lot of work to make purchasing decisions, ordering things 2 months out and paying for them in advance, checking back again and again to digital outlets to make sure I am getting the bang for my buck. I love the books I read and I have no hard and fast rules about not buying a book of the shelf for a particular price, but that said, in general I am just not getting the value out of a single issue new comic for north of $3.50. My recourse is to use discounts on offer in several places, and wait long after the date of publication (giving up a lot of the hot conversation in the process) to get those books for a lower price point that I find more agreeable.
Based on what I get and what I want, that MAY lead me back to the local shop. But I don't blame Chris for one second in making the decision to avoid new books. The cover prices will eventually drive me away from titles and eventually away from new books as a customer.
For the past couple of years, for new comics and trades, I shop DCBS. I refuse to pay $4 for a new floppy. I resist paying that much for most Bronze Age back issues even when I'm trying to fill holes in my collection. And when I can pick up 5 or so back issues for less than the cover price of a new comic, I'm persuaded to spend my money in the long boxes. As for new books that maybe I missed, or heard about after the heat died down, there's always eBay where people are frequently trying to move a 6-issue arc or lot of a recent title on the cheap. I just spotted the full Elektra 2014 run for less than $5 on eBay.
Even while trying to be frugal, using DCBS and eBay, I still end up spending an average of $60-$100 on comics and trades every month. And I f I were paying retail prices for all these books, I'd be acquiring FAR less books. The only alternatives would be getting out of the hobby altogether or blowing my budget to the point that my wife would need to step in and say something - which might still lead to getting out of the hobby.
We can debate all day about the current business model, the new normal, why a dollar doesn't buy what it used to, why the economy is still sucking wind in spite of what the news reports, or when and if digital comics will finally outsell floppies, but at the end of the day this is a major step for @wildpigcomics to take and I'm sure the guys didn't reach this conclusion without a lot of thoughtful consideration. I, for one, applaud the decision. And yet I also wonder how much of the shop's dynamic will change. The one thing I miss about my LCS experiences is when the new comics would arrive and I would scour the shelves along with all the other comic fans looking for my titles as well as whatever else caught my eye. But for me too, that era has long passed.
It is a bold and radical move that I hope it pays off. And if I'm ever in the area, I pledge to drop in and spend at least half my monthly comic budget at Wild Pig scouring those back issues. Thanks for another lively discussion guys.
I had a long post typed up but deleted it all because I feel most of what I said you all know and the meat is this:
1) The publishers need to get rid of Diamond's bullsh*t pricing scheme and cut the price of books in half. No more tiered purchase games, no gimmicks, just a simple straightforward price that levels the playing field for all retailers. Diamond's stupid ass business model, and publishers complacency, is KILLING comics. $4.99 books should move to $2.49 or $2.75, $3.99 to $1.99, etc. This will bring old readers back and attract new readers. The cost per issue is down but the volume will make it up.
- To support this idea, the top discount at diamond is 50% give or take a few points. On a $3.99 book that puts the actual retailer price of the book at around $2. I dont know what the publishers margins are but lets put a conservative 30%. So, the cost is really about $1.30 - $1.40 (give or take a nickel).
2) Stop the variant madness. Put the best cover on a comic - period. The madness that is variants is totally out of control. All you are doing with variants to forcing LCS to make bad business decisions and burning-up long time readers.
3) Focus on quality not quantity of titles. Having 40 books on a wall might make you feel good as a publisher but if 40% are crap or you are going to cancel them in 5 or 6 issues, you are hurting your retailers and readers. Your goal as a publisher should be to hook every customer into buying ALL your books - really invest into the universe. I cant do that as a buyer when a significant chunk of books are junk.
On a side note, it pains me greatly that younger readers are not buying comics in droves! When I was a kid (late 80s/early 90s), my parents would take me and my siblings to the comic store every weekend. The store was always packed with people buying comics, toys, sports cards, card games, etc. I cant remember the last time I saw that kind of traffic in a comic store in the last 5+ years. In my informal survey of neighbors, siblings, co-workers, the main reason they dont take their kids is because of price. Comics are too expensive to indulge a small child who only get maybe 10-15 minutes out of a $4 or $5 comic. The bang for the buck is too low.
@wildpigcomics - Please, please send a letter, tweet, Facebook post to the publishers. Make your voice be heard. I cant believe you are alone.
I think there are a few reasons why sales are down so much:
1. There are no monthly stories now. The production is now "for the trade."
2. The books read like "special stories" from the 60's-80's. They are mostly "artfully" done, with emphasis on flawed heroes, marginal heroes, anti-heroes, and villains with "troubled" backstories, making the heroes less heroic and the villains more sympathetic.
3. I don't think people want to pick up comics to read, regularly, about flawed heroes who are simply not heroic. Occasionally, sure, but not on a monthly basis.
4. And the monthly titles are simply too impenetrable. Imagine a new reader trying to jump on. I suppose it's great for long-time readers, but is it? There are fewer of them each month, if sales figures are to be believed.
5. DC really missed out on an opportunity with its New52 relaunch. What changed? Some costumes, some backstory, but the storytelling is the same as it's always been. And the "new" heroes aren't very likable. Batman is still a grim jerk, Superman is powered down, Wonder Woman is an overly aggressive warrior, and Green Lantern isn't on earth. DC could have gone back to telling stories about heroes, but instead created a universe none of us would want to live in.
Unlike Bill, I'm not optimistic. The numbers just don't seem to support long-term success. Hollywood may allow monthly comics to survive as a loss leader for upcoming movies, but the wonder I had as a kid each month when I would pick up a stack of comics is gone. (I realize that some of the wonder may be tempered by the fact that I am in my 40's, but I am referring to (a) how I imagine my 12 year old self, if he lived now, looking at a new issue of Justice League and (b) my seven-year old son, who loves the Flash TV show, the Flash TV show comic, but hates the Flash ongoing because its too confusing and Flash isn't like he is on TV.)
"1. There are no monthly stories now. The production is now "for the trade."
- I agree somewhat but not all books fall into this trap. Some comics are very good reads issue to issue - Darth Vader, Star Wars, Batman, etc. Should the creators be aware of the "trade trap"? Absolutely. More writers need take a step back and think "Would I be happy reading this comic with little to no information before hand? Does the issue stand on its own?"
"2. The books read like "special stories" from the 60's-80's. They are mostly "artfully" done, with emphasis on flawed heroes, marginal heroes, anti-heroes, and villains with "troubled" backstories, making the heroes less heroic and the villains more sympathetic."
- That is because we as an audience/culture have demanded more of our heroes and villains. The two-dimensional characters are written off as "cheesy" or "overly simplistic". If the audience really wanted those characters then Silver Age trades should be flying off the shelves and the movies would be similar.
"4. And the monthly titles are simply too impenetrable. Imagine a new reader trying to jump on. I suppose it's great for long-time readers, but is it? There are fewer of them each month, if sales figures are to be believed."
- Hasn't this always been the case? I am not far behind you in age. When I first started reading Batman it was issue number 460 (something). I didn't know what happened in the previous 459 issues. It didn't matter. I talked to the LCS people and kept picking up issues each month and pieced the important parts together.
I agree that the universes - TV, Movies, Video Games, Comics - don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. I am ok with that. For your son, I think reading the current Flash comic presents a much more complex character (not saying that's a good thing, just that he is) than the one on the TV show. At 7 I think its hard to understand the modernly written comic. What I do with kids that age is give them silver age comic reprints or trades as they tend to be more simplistic.
Like Mr. Eberle, I am a public school teacher and comics lover/scholar. I am not, however, a comics retailer, although I am fascinated by that side of the industry. I am also an avid CGS listener/subscriber. My absolute favorite episodes are the Spotlights; the level of scholarship Chris and Murd, in particular, bring to the podcast is eminently appreciated.
In this week's Comic Talk episode, Chris and Bill discussed at length their decision to eliminate new comics from their store, which, despite their on-air disclaimer, I found riveting. I have had several conversations with my local retailer about the endurance of floppies in the market. I tend to agree with you gentlemen that they cannot last given the steep rise in prices over the last decade and a half. The publishers are producing less content for more money, and the market cannot, and frankly should not, support that business model. Trade paperbacks, in my opinion, are a less expensive option that offer a better reading experience simply by nature of the fact that one can read an entire story at once. They can be placed neatly and attractively on bookshelves, and it is a much easier pill to swallow for first-time comics readers to try something that looks and feels like and actual book rather than a stack of bagged and boarded floppies. In fact, I recently sold the bulk of my single issue collection, approximately 10,000 books, so I could reacquire many of the same stories in trade format. Now I teach with trades, I lend them to my students, colleagues, and friends, and I use them to conduct research for my doctoral studies on the effectiveness of comics in secondary education.
My retailer maintains that floppies need to exist to "test the waters" for projects from the comic book companies. For instance, Marvel may not want to invest significant money for Ryan North and Erica Henderson to write and draw, respectively, six issues of The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl for a trade paperback that may or may not strike a chord with an audience. Instead, they pay to have the single issues produced one at a time, examine the sales figures each month, and make decisions about whether to continue publishing it or cancel it. On the strength of a given book, a trade paperback or hardcover collection can be produced, and now the companies are only paying for the printing costs as they've already paid the creative talent. Ultra-successful books will see multiple printings and deluxe editions and whatnot, all while the single issues keep rolling out.
Since you, Chris and Bill, are retailers with very strong feelings about this subject, I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
P.S. I am planning a trip from Long Island to Wild Pig Comics sometime in the next few months with a friend or two. Are there specific days/times you are there?