@bralinator That was a really interesting video, thanks for calling my attention to it. I agree with many of the things that guy said. Especially when it comes to Harley Quinn - who, in "Suicide Squad," is finally being introduced to mainstream movie audiences after spending her 24 years of existence in the more niche worlds of cartoons, comics, and videogames. It's Harley's big debut!
I confess, I've always had a problem with the character. I saw her as a battered wife archetype, a woman addicted to abuse - who was being presented to young audiences as if her plight were funny and charming. I could never quite digest that. In later years, Harley would have adventures away from The Joker, so creators would often play down that aspect of her character and play up her independent sexuality. Again, that wasn't for me, I'm a gay dude who isn't drawn to naked chicks :joy: so I didn't have incentive to follow Harley into that reinvention... and since I'm not a gamer either (jeez I sound boring) I had no reason to follow Harley into her immensely successful reinvention in the Arkham games. Though since I'm a comic junky with lots of straight gamer buddies, it was easy to keep an eye on what this character was up to.
I think the Harley Quinn we get in "Suicide Squad" is more or less faithful to the niche Harley who's been so popular for so long. She may not be my cup of tea, but I know how vast her fanbase is, so it's totally smart to translate her to the screen as closely as possible. But while I happen to be familiar with her? I think most mainstream film critics were, for the first time, realizing what she is. She's dirty, she's sexy, she's psycho, she's smart, she's funny, she's cute, she's homicidal, she's a hugely popular IP - and now, thanks to this movie? Harley Quinn - all of her - is mainstream. I think that deeply disturbs mainstream film critics. And I think many of them are using that anxiety to take swings at "Suicide Squad."
I'll just be happy the never-ending PR campaign for "Suicide Squad" will finally go away. I don't think I've ever seen a movie pimped as early and and sustained as this one was. WB/DC obviously had high hopes for this thing, perhaps higher hopes that something like this ever could have realistically delivered (considering the public had never heard of 80% of the characters).
the public had never heard of 80% of the characters
This has been my original concern since the film was announced.
I had the same concerned with every MCU movie announced with a new solo character. Who'd of thought GotG & Ant-man would have some success. There's less then 80% known from GotG & that raked in a lot.
Now, I figure people will just go to MCU movies because they're MCU movies. If my wife sees the logo, she asks when we're going.
the public had never heard of 80% of the characters
This has been my original concern since the film was announced.
I had the same concerned with every MCU movie announced with a new solo character. Who'd of thought GotG & Ant-man would have some success. There's less then 80% known from GotG & that raked in a lot.
Now, I figure people will just go to MCU movies because they're MCU movies. If my wife sees the logo, she asks when we're going.
I think that's because Marvel has slowly earned that confidence and trust, but DC has not.
I realize that today's summer action films are more often than not sequels and remakes, but people used to go see these movies without knowing anything about the characters, and they often still do. Why should comic book films be any different?
I realize that today's summer action films are more often than not sequels and remakes, but people used to go see these movies without knowing anything about the characters, and they often still do. Why should comic book films be any different?
Looking at how comic book movies performed before the MCU (excluding Batman), I'd say there was some type of difference.
Even today, I don't believe non-Marvel or DC comic book movies have great box offices. Scott Pilgram, the Losers, 300, Dredd all seemed to struggle.
I realize that today's summer action films are more often than not sequels and remakes, but people used to go see these movies without knowing anything about the characters, and they often still do. Why should comic book films be any different?
Looking at how comic book movies performed before the MCU (excluding Batman), I'd say there was some type of difference.
Even today, I don't believe non-Marvel or DC comic book movies have great box offices. Scott Pilgram, the Losers, 300, Dredd all seemed to struggle.
Scott Pilgrim looked more like an indie film more than the typical summer blockbuster, so I'd exclude that one from the conversation. Another thing to consider is that not all summer blockbusters succeed whether they're based on comics or not. I just don't think that if a comic-based movie flops, it's primarily because it was based on a comic. Personally, I thought 300 was boring and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Likewise the first Dredd movie (Stallone) was pretty awful, and it probably turned a lot of people away from seeing the reboot.
Quality will generally win out. Look at Red. It did well enough to generate a sequel, and it was far less known than something like Dredd. But it had a great cast and an entertaining story. I think that's the greatest determining factor as to whether any film succeeds or fails. Character recognition probably plays some part, but I think it's far down the list.
Many 'successful' summer action films these days are based on an existing property (comic book, television show, popular novel, video game, etc). Comic book films at least have some built-in audience, even if it's only the 30,000 -/+ readers or 40,000 people nominally familiar with the property. Seems to be the trend with movie studios these days. I think today's audience expects some familiarity, at least when it comes to sci-fi/action movies. Red for instance had Bruce Willis. Casting is pretty important.
It isn't the age of Star Wars (1977), Alien (1979), or the Terminator (1984) anymore. Of course, most summer action films aren't created in a vacuum these days with the prominence of entertainment media and its myriad of outlets. So with trailers and movie news, potentially interested moviegoers are readily informed about the film and the characters enough to decide if they want to go.
And with digital media being released sometimes within 3 to 6 months of theatrical release, unless the film really excites the potential moviegoers in advance, most moviegoers are content to wait or torrent the movie. The digital movie market model is built on that reality. One could argue that Marvel Unlimited is built on the same reality, something I would've never foreseen back when people used to not care about a comic's issue number.
Was Harley Quinn ever associated with Robin's death in the comics? In the movie's introductory sequence for Harley, text on the screen informs the audience that she was an "accomplice to Robin's murder."
Of course, most summer action films aren't created in a vacuum these days with the prominence of entertainment media and its myriad of outlets. So with trailers and movie news, potentially interested moviegoers are readily informed about the film and the characters enough to decide if they want to go.
Exactly. I think the familiarity factor only really comes into play when it comes down to head-to-head viewing choices, i.e. "Am I going to see Batman or Antman tonight?" The person who is already a fan of past Batman movies will probably be inclined to go with a known quantity. But if it comes down to Suicide Squad or a movie like The Martian, both less known quantities, it's going to come down to which looks more interesting and is generating the most buzz. And over the long haul, the better movie will get repeat viewers and the holdouts.
Was Harley Quinn ever associated with Robin's death in the comics? In the movie's introductory sequence for Harley, text on the screen informs the audience that she was an "accomplice to Robin's murder."
Not pre-Flashpoint obviously, as Harley wasn't even a twinkle in Paul Dini's eye when it happened. And post-Flashpoint Jason Todd was already back among the living.
And of course the movies are their own universe. Could be referring to Dick Grayson for all we know.
Many 'successful' summer action films these days are based on an existing property (comic book, television show, popular novel, video game, etc). Comic book films at least have some built-in audience, even if it's only the 30,000 -/+ readers or 40,000 people nominally familiar with the property. Seems to be the trend with movie studios these days.
I'm not sure it's so much that comic properties have a built-in audience from the comics, it's that the studios see that a comic property (or novel or autobiography etc) has proven that it can find an audience in the past, so in theory it's a safer bet to find an audience again than something totally unproven.
And what original films do become BO hits rely more on old fashioned Hollywood star power to drive box-office than the content of the films (i.e. Dwayne Johnson in San Andreas, Will Ferrell & Mark Wahlberg in Daddy's Home, Kevin Hart AND Dwayne Johnson in Central Intelligence, Kevin Hart AND Will Ferrell in Get Hard, Will Ferrell AND Mark Wahlberg AND Dwayne Johnson in The Other Guys).
I saw the movie and on the whole I liked it. I thought most of the characters were good. There are some pacing issues, and I think the movie would have been better served if they had gone on another mission to see them work together and give them better motivations for the third act choices. The criminally bad scene was Enchantress at the end, but it was not enough to sour the rest of the movie.
Giving it a solid 3 out of 5 Deadshots. I enjoyed it, and I'll probably pick the DVD up, extras or no. Hopefully there'll be some fun background stuff in there on the extras.
Spoilers aboundeth below:
The good: - Viola Davis *is* the Wall. Of the three actresses who've done the role - including my beloved Angela Bassett - she's come closest to nailing the character. If I had a problem at all? Too skinny. :) - Will Smith as Deadshot. He had the best scene in the movie as far as action goes. The regular guys with guns can't stop the oncoming horde? Yeah, hold on for a minute. The more he shot the bigger my grin got. THIS is why you're supposed to be afraid of Deadshot. - The criminally underused Captain Boomerang. It's not the Squad without him in there. And he pretty much owned any scene he was in. - Beee-dutiful fight sequences and action shots. For such an "ugly" film in terms of story and characters, it's a beauty for the eyeballs. - El Diablo. I'm a sucker for the "bad guy seeking redemption" storyline, and whether or not he found his, who can say.
The Meh: - Leto's Joker. I didn't hate it but I'm still more afraid of Romero's than anyone who has done the role. - Harley. Don't get me wrong, she's a beautiful woman and she's there for a reason, but Robbie needed to pick an accent and stick with it. :)
The Bad: - Rick Flag. It's a real shame Tom Hardy couldn't stay with this role, because his replacement just didn't hold up. You always got the impression in the books that Flag was capable of taking out any member of the Squad at any point, despite being a "normal". Tom Hardy would have pulled that off easily. This guy really didn't. - The Editor. If this movie suffered from anything, it was from bad pacing. Visually it's eye candy. Action fans? You're gonna love it. Anyone who wants to try and figure out what's going on and who's the bad guy? Yeah...good luck with that.
Overall, I enjoyed it, and I've encouraged others to check it out. As a longtime fan of Task Force X, I was surprised this movie even got made, so I'll own up to bias. Then again, don't take my word for it...Suicide Squad writer John Ostrander saw the movie and had plenty to say (both good and bad) in his review of it.
Suicide Squad set an August opening record for films and will make back its budget and then some. Glad to see another non-PC comic book move setting BO records (see also Deadpool).
Suicide Squad set an August opening record for films and will make back its budget and then some. Glad to see another non-PC comic book move setting BO records (see also Deadpool).
"Another non-PC..." Is that because an SNL writer was complaining about an Asian playing a samurai, a Hispanic playing a gang member, & an Australian playing a guy who throws boomerangs?!
I'm sure if they were American whitewashed, the guy wouldn't be making a fuss.
Suicide Squad set an August opening record for films and will make back its budget and then some. Glad to see another non-PC comic book move setting BO records (see also Deadpool).
"Another non-PC..." Is that because an SNL writer was complaining about an Asian playing a samurai, a Hispanic playing a gang member, & an Australian playing a guy who throws boomerangs?!
I'm sure if they were American whitewashed, the guy wouldn't be making a fuss.
M
Something like that. MTV's movie reviewer thought it was blatantly sexist. While Vanity Faircommented that it was "steeped in flaccid machismo" with "appalling sexism" "a soupçon of racism" and contained "hideously timed gun worship." Then there's The Wrap who actually proclaimed Suicide Squad to be the 'Donald Trump' of super-hero movies, labeling it "vulgar, mean and sexist."
**sidebar** An interesting contrast is to read all 3 of those outlets' Ghostbusters reviews, where they each showered the film with praise and essentially told moviegoers to ignore the haters, this movie is funny.
I've heard that Zack Snyder directed one scene in "Suicide Squad." Anyone know for sure which one? I'd guess it was the Batmobile/Jokermobile car chase.
I've heard that Zack Snyder directed one scene in "Suicide Squad." Anyone know for sure which one? I'd guess it was the Batmobile/Jokermobile car chase.
I've heard that Zack Snyder directed one scene in "Suicide Squad." Anyone know for sure which one? I'd guess it was the Batmobile/Jokermobile car chase.
I wonder if it was the mid-credit scene.
According to the Independent, the scene in question is the early sequence that introduces the audience to Captain Boomerang, played by Jai Courtney, that Snyder filmed.
Inspired by that brave Scotsman - I have just now decided to sue DC *and* Marvel for selling me comic books with covers of scenes which do not appear in the actual stories!
Finally got to see it and I am very in the middle on this one. I liked BvS but I know I'm in the minority with that but I definitely thought BvS was a lot better then this.
I thought there specific moments that where good, and I thought the acting was good. My biggest problem with this was story I don't think it fit well together. What caused them to get sent to the city felt like a very forced reason.
I'm not surprised at all that they tried to humanize these villains.(I thought they would to begin with).
I liked Deadshot, I don't think they messed with his story to much? He's a assassin that loves his daughter, and that's what he was in this.
Harley I didn't have any real issues with her. It was cool seeing that flashbacks to Arkham and her wearing her actual costume was cool.
I feel like Harley's love for the Joker was pretty accurate? I haven't read much of her in the comics, my knowledge of her is from the Animated Series, and Arkham games.
I know basically nothing about Diablo but I thought he was interesting and his backstory was good. But I don't think we got to know him enough? Which is a big problem in this overall because there's so many characters.
Enchantress was OK but I did not like her as the "main" advisory and I thought she was beaten kind of easily buy a group of people who were just mostly humans.
Amanda Waller was Amanda Waller the actual villain and I thought the actress was pretty good.
This Joker was definitely my least favorite live action Joker but I want to wait and see something that is more focused on him. I really don't think he needed to be in this beyond a flashback?
Instead of seeing him do stuff that time could have been used getting to learn about the other characters.
I liked the action scenes and that last fight saved it some for me a little. But overall I'm like a 5/10 didn't think it was as bad as a lot of people do but it's a kind of movie I will probably only see once.
I have to admit, the Joker is one of the main reasons my interest is lukewarm (at best) on this. It's very superficial, but I just can't get past his look. I hope his characterization is generally accepted, but the grill & tats just pull me away from it.
I have to admit, the Joker is one of the main reasons my interest is lukewarm (at best) on this. It's very superficial, but I just can't get past his look. I hope his characterization is generally accepted, but the grill & tats just pull me away from it.
Yeah, he appears less Charles Manson crazy and more Marilyn Manson crazy... You know, pretending. Too stylish, deliberate and self aware than I would envision the joker to be. Seems like a gangster / thug with a gimmick. Or just a disgruntled ex hot topic employee.
I have to admit, the Joker is one of the main reasons my interest is lukewarm (at best) on this. It's very superficial, but I just can't get past his look. I hope his characterization is generally accepted, but the grill & tats just pull me away from it.
Yeah, he appears less Charles Manson crazy and more Marilyn Manson crazy... You know, pretending. Too stylish, deliberate and self aware than I would envision the joker to be. Seems like a gangster / thug with a gimmick. Or just a disgruntled ex hot topic employee.
Speaking of The Joker, he feels designed by committee. He looks like a Juggalo - not a good look. The Joker shouldn't look like he member of the Insane Clown Posse fan club. And he's sporting a grill. The Joker should not appropriate culture, nor should he EVER have HIS OWN FAN ART tattooed on his body. That “Hahaha” is straight from the pages of comic book art. Unless the Joker lives in a meta universe where comic books of his antics exist, this shouldn't happen. Harley, on the other hand, was perfectly realized.
Comments
I confess, I've always had a problem with the character. I saw her as a battered wife archetype, a woman addicted to abuse - who was being presented to young audiences as if her plight were funny and charming. I could never quite digest that. In later years, Harley would have adventures away from The Joker, so creators would often play down that aspect of her character and play up her independent sexuality. Again, that wasn't for me, I'm a gay dude who isn't drawn to naked chicks :joy: so I didn't have incentive to follow Harley into that reinvention... and since I'm not a gamer either (jeez I sound boring) I had no reason to follow Harley into her immensely successful reinvention in the Arkham games. Though since I'm a comic junky with lots of straight gamer buddies, it was easy to keep an eye on what this character was up to.
I think the Harley Quinn we get in "Suicide Squad" is more or less faithful to the niche Harley who's been so popular for so long. She may not be my cup of tea, but I know how vast her fanbase is, so it's totally smart to translate her to the screen as closely as possible. But while I happen to be familiar with her? I think most mainstream film critics were, for the first time, realizing what she is. She's dirty, she's sexy, she's psycho, she's smart, she's funny, she's cute, she's homicidal, she's a hugely popular IP - and now, thanks to this movie? Harley Quinn - all of her - is mainstream. I think that deeply disturbs mainstream film critics. And I think many of them are using that anxiety to take swings at "Suicide Squad."
Now, I figure people will just go to MCU movies because they're MCU movies. If my wife sees the logo, she asks when we're going.
Even today, I don't believe non-Marvel or DC comic book movies have great box offices. Scott Pilgram, the Losers, 300, Dredd all seemed to struggle.
Quality will generally win out. Look at Red. It did well enough to generate a sequel, and it was far less known than something like Dredd. But it had a great cast and an entertaining story. I think that's the greatest determining factor as to whether any film succeeds or fails. Character recognition probably plays some part, but I think it's far down the list.
It isn't the age of Star Wars (1977), Alien (1979), or the Terminator (1984) anymore. Of course, most summer action films aren't created in a vacuum these days with the prominence of entertainment media and its myriad of outlets. So with trailers and movie news, potentially interested moviegoers are readily informed about the film and the characters enough to decide if they want to go.
And with digital media being released sometimes within 3 to 6 months of theatrical release, unless the film really excites the potential moviegoers in advance, most moviegoers are content to wait or torrent the movie. The digital movie market model is built on that reality. One could argue that Marvel Unlimited is built on the same reality, something I would've never foreseen back when people used to not care about a comic's issue number.
Was Harley Quinn ever associated with Robin's death in the comics? In the movie's introductory sequence for Harley, text on the screen informs the audience that she was an "accomplice to Robin's murder."
And of course the movies are their own universe. Could be referring to Dick Grayson for all we know.
And what original films do become BO hits rely more on old fashioned Hollywood star power to drive box-office than the content of the films (i.e. Dwayne Johnson in San Andreas, Will Ferrell & Mark Wahlberg in Daddy's Home, Kevin Hart AND Dwayne Johnson in Central Intelligence, Kevin Hart AND Will Ferrell in Get Hard, Will Ferrell AND Mark Wahlberg AND Dwayne Johnson in The Other Guys).
Spoilers aboundeth below:
The good:
- Viola Davis *is* the Wall. Of the three actresses who've done the role - including my beloved Angela Bassett - she's come closest to nailing the character. If I had a problem at all? Too skinny. :)
- Will Smith as Deadshot. He had the best scene in the movie as far as action goes. The regular guys with guns can't stop the oncoming horde? Yeah, hold on for a minute. The more he shot the bigger my grin got. THIS is why you're supposed to be afraid of Deadshot.
- The criminally underused Captain Boomerang. It's not the Squad without him in there. And he pretty much owned any scene he was in.
- Beee-dutiful fight sequences and action shots. For such an "ugly" film in terms of story and characters, it's a beauty for the eyeballs.
- El Diablo. I'm a sucker for the "bad guy seeking redemption" storyline, and whether or not he found his, who can say.
The Meh:
- Leto's Joker. I didn't hate it but I'm still more afraid of Romero's than anyone who has done the role.
- Harley. Don't get me wrong, she's a beautiful woman and she's there for a reason, but Robbie needed to pick an accent and stick with it. :)
The Bad:
- Rick Flag. It's a real shame Tom Hardy couldn't stay with this role, because his replacement just didn't hold up. You always got the impression in the books that Flag was capable of taking out any member of the Squad at any point, despite being a "normal". Tom Hardy would have pulled that off easily. This guy really didn't.
- The Editor. If this movie suffered from anything, it was from bad pacing. Visually it's eye candy. Action fans? You're gonna love it. Anyone who wants to try and figure out what's going on and who's the bad guy? Yeah...good luck with that.
Overall, I enjoyed it, and I've encouraged others to check it out. As a longtime fan of Task Force X, I was surprised this movie even got made, so I'll own up to bias. Then again, don't take my word for it...Suicide Squad writer John Ostrander saw the movie and had plenty to say (both good and bad) in his review of it.
http://www.comicmix.com/2016/08/07/john-ostrander-reviews-the-suicide-squad/
There are reports however that word of mouth hurt the movie and it dropped in business significantly from Friday to Saturday.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/suicide-squad-box-office-analysis-saturday-drop-917872
I'm sure if they were American whitewashed, the guy wouldn't be making a fuss.
M
**sidebar** An interesting contrast is to read all 3 of those outlets' Ghostbusters reviews, where they each showered the film with praise and essentially told moviegoers to ignore the haters, this movie is funny.
According to the Independent, the scene in question is the early sequence that introduces the audience to Captain Boomerang, played by Jai Courtney, that Snyder filmed.
https://www.google.com/amp/movieweb.com/amp/suicide-squad-lawsuit-joker-false-advertising-reddit/
I thought there specific moments that where good, and I thought the acting was good. My biggest problem with this was story I don't think it fit well together. What caused them to get sent to the city felt like a very forced reason.
I'm not surprised at all that they tried to humanize these villains.(I thought they would to begin with).
I liked Deadshot, I don't think they messed with his story to much? He's a assassin that loves his daughter, and that's what he was in this.
Harley I didn't have any real issues with her. It was cool seeing that flashbacks to Arkham and her wearing her actual costume was cool.
I feel like Harley's love for the Joker was pretty accurate? I haven't read much of her in the comics, my knowledge of her is from the Animated Series, and Arkham games.
I know basically nothing about Diablo but I thought he was interesting and his backstory was good. But I don't think we got to know him enough? Which is a big problem in this overall because there's so many characters.
Enchantress was OK but I did not like her as the "main" advisory and I thought she was beaten kind of easily buy a group of people who were just mostly humans.
Amanda Waller was Amanda Waller the actual villain and I thought the actress was pretty good.
This Joker was definitely my least favorite live action Joker but I want to wait and see something that is more focused on him. I really don't think he needed to be in this beyond a flashback?
Instead of seeing him do stuff that time could have been used getting to learn about the other characters.
I liked the action scenes and that last fight saved it some for me a little. But overall I'm like a 5/10 didn't think it was as bad as a lot of people do but it's a kind of movie I will probably only see once.