I don't think the Japanese model works in America. As much as I'd love weekly comics in a big disposable book, I think the cost would be prohibitive.
More than that, though, today’s American comic readers have proven they don’t want to read an anthology. And I think the binge-watch culture we’ve developed recently kind of speaks to that as well.
Curiously, Marvel are launching a couple of more third-tier character books. Guess they figure one of them will hit or maybe they have a strategy or agenda in mind.
The strategy is to have a crap-ton of titles on the shelf. It’s the same strategy they had back in the early to mid-’70s and again in the early ’90s. “How do we do it? Volume, volume, volume.” But when you limit the lineup to a half-dozen or so X-Men related titles instead of the dozen-plus from a few years ago, you’ve got to pull the characters from somewhere else.
Plus, throwing out lesser known IPs every now and then helps to get them at least a little bit better recognized.
No one is saying the obvious here: Nighthawk is not a character that enough people know or care about to order a comics series. It sold poorly before it came out, so any discussion of quality or lack thereof is moot. Omega the Unknown by Latham was a brilliant book that sold poorly because...come on, it's Omega the Unknown.
Well, another aspect to consider is the Farel Dalrymple art—which I love—probably turned off a lot of Marvel stalwarts who might have considered buying it otherwise. It is a brilliant book, though.
The strategy is to have a crap-ton of titles on the shelf. It’s the same strategy they had back in the early to mid-’70s and again in the early ’90s. “How do we do it? Volume, volume, volume.” But when you limit the lineup to a half-dozen or so X-Men related titles instead of the dozen-plus from a few years ago, you’ve got to pull the characters from somewhere else.
Plus, throwing out lesser known IPs every now and then helps to get them at least a little bit better recognized.
Hmmm... now I wonder why David Walker and Brian Bendis didn't just say that about the cancellation in the first place?
More than that, though, today’s American comic readers have proven they don’t want to read an anthology. And I think the binge-watch culture we’ve developed recently kind of speaks to that as well.
Yeah, isn't DC trying a pseudo-anthology with Legends of Tomorrow? I can't imagine sales on that are doing any great shakes, although I heard the Sugar and Spike story was a lot of fun.
Plus, throwing out lesser known IPs every now and then helps to get them at least a little bit better recognized.
...and once in a while it works and something sticks. Who ever expected that we would have on-going Marvel titles featuring the likes of Squirrel Girl, Silk, (the new) Ms. Marvel, Inhumans (not one, but two titles!), plus the upcoming Mosaic and Solo series.
Plus, throwing out lesser known IPs every now and then helps to get them at least a little bit better recognized.
...and once in a while it works and something sticks. Who ever expected that we would have on-going Marvel titles featuring the likes of Squirrel Girl, Silk, (the new) Ms. Marvel, Inhumans (not one, but two titles!), plus the upcoming Mosaic and Solo series.
Oh sure. If Marvel kept strictly to publishing 26 titles, no more, no less, they most likely never would have published any of those titles. Well... they would have done Inhumans, since they’re pushing them in their TV/movie-verse. But that’s the conundrum I have with Marvel and DC. I hate that they flood the market, but it’s those outlier books like Squirrel Girl and Omega Men that never would be published otherwise which I tend to enjoy the most from them.
If it was the "original" 616 Kyle Richmond/Defenders Nighthawk, I would have ordered it in a heartbeat.
I agree. When I read the solicit and realized it wasn't Kyle, I was: 'meh.'
If pre-orders for the first-issue of a Marvel book are in the low 30k's or below, it seems like the writing is already on the wall - unless it's like a black swan like a 'Walking Dead' which is never expected. So if Marvel is just keeping IPs propped up and also not offering return-ability, why would retailers be motivated to take chances? Maybe they could have printed large number ones in the top corner of every issue of Nighthawk...
As for return ability of comics, again, although Marvel doesn't offer it, ComicChrin looked at the sales numbers over the last year of books that WERE returnable and it turns out that the median returnable comic book in 2014-15 wound up eventually selling 10% more copies than Diamond initially reported. Return-ability is not an albatross.
Hmmm... now I wonder why David Walker and Brian Bendis didn't just say that about the cancellation in the first place?
:)
Let’s throw out the obvious point about not wanting to make waves with your employer. And let’s put aside whether Walker and/or Bendis were blaming readers—which, personally, I didn’t that feeling at all from the quotes I saw. Let’s just talk about the basic issue of Marvel (and DC) putting out more titles than the industry can support.
Without that volume of titles, Walker might not be working for Marvel right now—Marvel would only need six or seven writers, tops. Bendis probably wouldn’t have been able to do a series like Alias. Without that volume, would there even have been room for a Marvel Knights line to bring Bendis into the Marvel fold?
The vast number of titles isn’t completely a bad thing, because it allows for more creative freedom within the company. It allows them to experiment, which often results in a superior product (see Tom King’s Vision series). You take the good with the bad.
So if Marvel is just keeping IPs propped up and also not offering return-ability, why would retailers be motivated to take chances? ... As for return ability of comics, again, although Marvel doesn't offer it, ComicChrin looked at the sales numbers over the last year of books that WERE returnable and it turns out that the median returnable comic book in 2014-15 wound up eventually selling 10% more copies than Diamond initially reported. Return-ability is not an albatross.
A 10% bump would certainly have helped Nighthawk’s case. Still a borderline title though.
Nice to have some data on returnablility. I assume this was just Marvel and DC books, or were there any independents in the mix? I'm not worried about Marvel and DC surviving returnability, but the smaller publishers...
Some independents in the mix, but the thing about returnability numbers is that some books are forced to offer returnability when they are super late, so it's a challenge to parse these numbers with total accuracy.
Some independents in the mix, but the thing about returnability numbers is that some books are forced to offer returnability when they are super late, so it's a challenge to parse these numbers with total accuracy.
Ah, of course. I've been involved with a few returnable projects myself. :blush:
Too bad those numbers aren’t kept separate from the rest.
Geez on a serious note, I actually confused Squadron Supreme's Nighthawk with New Warriors' Night Thrasher. My previous comment is 65℅ less good upon that realization. My bad guys.
It's alright, I kept thinking of Darkhawk most of this thread.
Geez on a serious note, I actually confused Squadron Supreme's Nighthawk with New Warriors' Night Thrasher. My previous comment is 65℅ less good upon that realization. My bad guys.
It's alright, I kept thinking of Darkhawk most of this thread.
Geez on a serious note, I actually confused Squadron Supreme's Nighthawk with New Warriors' Night Thrasher. My previous comment is 65℅ less good upon that realization. My bad guys.
It's alright, I kept thinking of Darkhawk most of this thread.
Darkhawk is very happy someone thought of him.
Seriously, I think a Darkhawk series would have had a better chance than this Nighthawk series.
Geez on a serious note, I actually confused Squadron Supreme's Nighthawk with New Warriors' Night Thrasher. My previous comment is 65℅ less good upon that realization. My bad guys.
It's alright, I kept thinking of Darkhawk most of this thread.
Welp this exchange pretty much sums up why we aren't getting any more Nighthawk.
Didn't Marvel do a Night Thrasher limited series in the last two years?
The thing I think that makes Manga maybe more accessible than Marvel or DC, is for the most part whatever series your reading in Manga is it. You don't need to keep up with with some other series to get the story you want.
And you don't ever have to worry about some giant crossover where you need to get multiple books.
Also another reason is that a Manga series for the most part the story has a beginning and a end.
Top 5 Manga Volume Sales 1st half of 2016. 1. One Piece 6.5 Million, 2. Assassination Classroom 4.4 Million, 3. Attack On Titan 4.3 Million, 4. Haikyu 4 Million, 5. Kingdom 3.5 Million
And side note at least 4 of these 5 series are really good. Never read Assassination Classroom so I can't say if it's good or not?
Kingdom is amazing you will look at that art and will be amazed when you realize this is a weekly series.
Nighthawk, he was in the Loners right? (Just kidding I know he was a part of the New Defenders ;) )
As for manga, I dabble a little more than most but @Torchsong devours. Your comment made me think of @John_Steed; I miss Werner.
I think this version is the one from Squadron Sinister. The one from the Defenders has been relegated to crowd scene status since no one knew how to write him but Steve Gerber.
I thought this one was from the Mark Waid's Squadron Supreme. Though I haven't read the title yet. I could be wrong.
Close-- I think Waid might have done a later volume. But this version of Nighthawk started in Supreme Power (a Squadron Supreme reboot, alternate Earth, and a MAX book) by JMS and Gary Frank. The character ended up in the 616 as part of the Secret Wars fallout, I think.
Yeah, Supreme Power is what I was thinking of. I forgot it started with JMS... And was yet another thing he walked away from !
Comments
Plus, throwing out lesser known IPs every now and then helps to get them at least a little bit better recognized.
:)
If pre-orders for the first-issue of a Marvel book are in the low 30k's or below, it seems like the writing is already on the wall - unless it's like a black swan like a 'Walking Dead' which is never expected. So if Marvel is just keeping IPs propped up and also not offering return-ability, why would retailers be motivated to take chances? Maybe they could have printed large number ones in the top corner of every issue of Nighthawk...
As for return ability of comics, again, although Marvel doesn't offer it, ComicChrin looked at the sales numbers over the last year of books that WERE returnable and it turns out that the median returnable comic book in 2014-15 wound up eventually selling 10% more copies than Diamond initially reported. Return-ability is not an albatross.
Without that volume of titles, Walker might not be working for Marvel right now—Marvel would only need six or seven writers, tops. Bendis probably wouldn’t have been able to do a series like Alias. Without that volume, would there even have been room for a Marvel Knights line to bring Bendis into the Marvel fold?
The vast number of titles isn’t completely a bad thing, because it allows for more creative freedom within the company. It allows them to experiment, which often results in a superior product (see Tom King’s Vision series). You take the good with the bad.
[Edit: Maybe I should have just not included your quote at all, as this was really more just a continuation of my last post.]
Nice to have some data on returnablility. I assume this was just Marvel and DC books, or were there any independents in the mix? I'm not worried about Marvel and DC surviving returnability, but the smaller publishers...
Too bad those numbers aren’t kept separate from the rest.
Didn't Marvel do a Night Thrasher limited series in the last two years?
Night Thrasher has been dead since the original Civil War event.
*not so old - spoilers*
Time displaced Night Thrasher recently made an appearance in Marvel's Contest of Champions title.
And you don't ever have to worry about some giant crossover where you need to get multiple books.
Also another reason is that a Manga series for the most part the story has a beginning and a end.
Top 5 Manga Volume Sales 1st half of 2016.
1. One Piece 6.5 Million,
2. Assassination Classroom 4.4 Million,
3. Attack On Titan 4.3 Million,
4. Haikyu 4 Million,
5. Kingdom 3.5 Million
And side note at least 4 of these 5 series are really good. Never read Assassination Classroom so I can't say if it's good or not?
Kingdom is amazing you will look at that art and will be amazed when you realize this is a weekly series.
Thanks, @David_D !
The leader was a new Night Thrasher, who turned out to be the brother of the original.
-Demonstrative Doom!