These are all titles that were pretty iffy from the time they were announced.
If they all go, that'll be a 30% failure rate for the initial 52 titles.
Not bad, considering how skeptical I was at the get-go.
My guess is that it will end up around 50% cut vs. kept, which is kind of high but to be expected I guess with this approach of tossing the spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm not surprised by any of those titles and thought there would be a few more. I wish they would stop trying to keep at the military books and drop a Deathblow book. I just read the new(ish) story from the 2011 Wildstorm Annual and it is just genius.
I am wondering how many of the original 52 titles that will survive all the future cuts will have been existing titles from before The New 52? So far of all the titles that have cut in these first two rounds have seemed to been new titles.
I'm sad when any book is cancelled because I know that every book is someone's favorite and I feel badly when someone's favorite book is getting cancelled.
These are all titles that were pretty iffy from the time they were announced.
If they all go, that'll be a 30% failure rate for the initial 52 titles.
Not bad, considering how skeptical I was at the get-go.
My guess is that it will end up around 50% cut vs. kept, which is kind of high but to be expected I guess with this approach of tossing the spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm not surprised by any of those titles and thought there would be a few more. I wish they would stop trying to keep at the military books and drop a Deathblow book. I just read the new(ish) story from the 2011 Wildstorm Annual and it is just genius.
I am wondering how many of the original 52 titles that will survive all the future cuts will have been existing titles from before The New 52? So far of all the titles that have cut in these first two rounds have seemed to been new titles.
I think that is a good observation. And it is in keeping with the challenge that anything new, or even new-ish (e.g. something like Resurrection Man or Firestorm that has existed before) has in the market.
That said, though, there are titles that didn't exist before the relaunch (or, in some cases, that hadn't existed in a long time) that are continuing to make the cut. Like Demon Knights, Batwing, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Justice League Dark, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Red Lanterns, and others. So while it is not surprising that the first cuts are of the less established ideas, it may be that there will still be some new, or longer lapsed, ideas that will still keep an audience and continue.
And looking at the second wave titles that are coming, I was glad to see that there are still some risks being taken- like Dial H for Hero. Given what has or hasn't worked, they could have gone conservative and had all the second wave titles fall right in line behind the Bat, Superman, and Justice League lines. And not all of them are doing that. It could be that something like Dial H could be the next surprise success like Animal Man. We'll see.
If they cancell those titles they will want to keep 52 titles going what will they replace them with? i don't know if D.C has the characters left to support their own books apart from Red Robin.Who else could there be ? ..... A team -up book maybe like Marvels
What do you think it is about anthology titles that never seem to last, whether DC Universe Presents, Marvel Comics Presents or etc? I would love to read an anthology title that just kept going
@JohnathanConstantine, I know for myself that anthology books never give enough of the story I do want, and too much of the story I don't want to read.
Anyone have any idea if the costs of printing and distributing physical comics are such that a digital only title could continue profitably at significantly lower sales numbers than are now required to keep a book going?
The problem is more with the model (and some greed) as well as digital not being as popular as the big publishers would want you to believe. It is increasing but it isn't finding new readers, just a subset of the same ones. The only area that I see actual growth in is in graphic novels. I see people otherwise not interested in comics reading GNs (both print and digital) and usually due to some other reason like enjoying The Walking Dead on TV. So it doesn't really work for stuff that wouldn't already be popular and mainstream. It definitely *could* be used to keep something unprofitable in print afloat, but I doubt you will see that happen anytime soon. Just MHO.
@JohnathanConstantine, I know for myself that anthology books never give enough of the story I do want, and too much of the story I don't want to read.
I think DC Comics Presents was really mishandled. Even if he had a lot of positive buzz coming out of Brightest Day, you don't lead off your new anthology book with 5 issues of Deadman! And from the sound of it, not very good Deadman, either.
I think DC Comics Presents was really mishandled. Even if he had a lot of positive buzz coming out of Brightest Day, you don't lead off your new anthology book with 5 issues of Deadman! And from the sound of it, not very good Deadman, either.
I think all anthology books have been mishanded since the first two volumes of Marvel Comics Presents. Also, wasn't the recent (a few years ago) series of Marvel Team-Up considered to be really good. I think Hickman wrote it.
I had trouble with the Deadman story too, which really disappointed me because I really like Paul Jenkins' work.
They probably should use it to highlight other titles as well as drumming up interest on other characters.
I think DC Comics Presents was really mishandled. Even if he had a lot of positive buzz coming out of Brightest Day, you don't lead off your new anthology book with 5 issues of Deadman! And from the sound of it, not very good Deadman, either.
I think all anthology books have been mishanded since the first two volumes of Marvel Comics Presents. Also, wasn't the recent (a few years ago) series of Marvel Team-Up considered to be really good. I think Hickman wrote it.
I had trouble with the Deadman story too, which really disappointed me because I really like Paul Jenkins' work.
They probably should use it to highlight other titles as well as drumming up interest on other characters.
Just think how well it'd be selling if "The Curse of Shazam" was printed in there instead of Justice League...
I think both Frankenstein AOS and Voodoo are excellent comics. Lemire has done a wonderful job on Frankenstein and, while the story may not be all that great, the art in Voodoo is stunning. I will be seriously disappointed if either of these comics disappear.
The numbers are low and we will probably see another reshuffling of titles around the year mark. I'm not sure what they would cycle out. but those are the top 10 suspects. DC might want to keep a few of the lower titles around in hopes that they can turn around.
Having studies sales trends since the early 90's (when it was my job) outside of bringing in a new creative team, once a book drops in sales below a certain level, it NEVER recovers. The idea that readers will pick up a book of an on-going unless they make some BIG shift is a fan dream that just never happens.
the other thing I was thinking is that DC is being pretty harsh on a lot of the books. they need to realize that with 52 books out each month in an already saturated market, a lot of the books are not going to sell as good as they want. I think they are kind of just alienating readers when they axe books that are selling, and most are selling better than a lot of the other books from dark horse and image. starting to prove that DC is too much into the business end and doesn't care about the storytelling aspect as much. the books are making money, if they make a little bit of profit and you aren't losing money, then keep the books. not every book will be batman. they need to cater a bit more to the fringe readers a little bit more imo, this is why I have moved back in large part back to image since DC started axing books like omac.
If the sales numbers we get are accurate, they actually are publishing a few books that don't generate a profit. I've done the breakdown before, but there is pretty much no way DC can generate a profit on a comic that sells less than 20,000 copies (at that point the GROSS for DC is around $23,000. Then, you take out for printing, page rates, overhead and you are working at a loss) and I would venture that the break even line on a book that isn't doing gangbusters in trade or international sales is closer to 23,000.
Also, add in that they have lost a LOT of power in the Time/Warner company after Paul Levitz was squeezed out (rumors are because DC wasn't showing growth and wasn't meeting profit benchmarks), they no longer keep books going in hopes that they will make up the losses in trades.
The other thing to remember is the Dark Horse has MUCH lower overhead and isn't part of a corporate structure, and Image creators pay to get their books published and get their pay on the back end, so to compare sales from them to DC really is apples vs organs.
As Mark Evanier said: The only reason any comic book is ever cancelled is that it is not making money. Period.
Having studies sales trends since the early 90's (when it was my job) outside of bringing in a new creative team, once a book drops in sales below a certain level, it NEVER recovers. The idea that readers will pick up a book of an on-going unless they make some BIG shift is a fan dream that just never happens.
I agree; I was mainly pointing out all the talk about these titles was as if they were already cancelled. Which hasn't happened. I think there is going to be a reshuffling of titles with some or all of the lower sales getting cycled out for something new. However they aren't cancelled at the time of this posting. BUT They aren't coming back from terrible sales.
I also agree with you're points on breakeven numbers. I don't care how many units Justice League/XMen/Avengers/Batman sells, if OMAC/Alpha Flight is losing money it needs to be cancelled. That's basic business. High profit titles do not need to carry unprofitable titles. Sometimes a loser is loser regardless of quality.
I don't want to see any quality comics get cancelled.
I'm this way about Demon Knights. I don't know the numbers on it, I just know I love it enough to want to support it by buying it. I've been getting the single issues, jumped to DaD-Digital with this last issue and plan to pre-order the trade of it this month. I do this because I know it's a tough sell - if you'd told me I'd feel this way about a book with The Demon and Vandal Savage in a medieval setting, I'd have been too busy laughing to take you seriously - so I put my money where my mouth is. Batman doesn't need my help to keep going. Demon Knights does.
And life is way too short for comics that don't blow you away. :)
I don't want to see any quality comics get cancelled.
Agreed. That's why we should let people know about them, push them on twitter, start threads here, etc... There are a LOT of titles in the market right now, and since I don't go to Newsarama or CBR, I'm not going to see any ads for things because, let's face it, the market departments at comic book companies are lazy. Always have been.
"What do you mean we don't do good advertising? We run ads in CBG and Wizard, what MORE would you want us to do?" - Actual Marvel marketing person in 1994.
The only way I know about indy books is if they do podcast interviews or people push them on message boards. I've been burned too many times pre-ordering a book from a fairly established talent who loses interest and wanders off before he finishes the story, so I only know what's good if I hear good things about it through word of mouth. They aren't advertising to me, it seems.
"What do you mean we don't do good advertising? We run ads in CBG and Wizard, what MORE would you want us to do?" - Actual Marvel marketing person in 1994.
So I guess I'm one of the only ones who's actually enjoying Grifter and Voodoo? I've found both books to be good, or at least better than some others that aren't on that list.
I know that they are more well known and beloved characters, but I'm really more surprised that The Savage Hawkman and Green Arrow didn't make that list. Are they really selling better? I dropped both after checking out the first issue, as they were terrible, and from what I remember reading and hearing, I was very much not alone in that consensus. As a fan of both's previous New 52 titles, I was hoping they'd be better - but sadly, that was not to be.
So I guess I'm one of the only ones who's actually enjoying Grifter and Voodoo? I've found both books to be good, or at least better than some others that aren't on that list.
I know that they are more well known and beloved characters, but I'm really more surprised that The Savage Hawkman and Green Arrow didn't make that list. Are they really selling better? I dropped both after checking out the first issue, as they were terrible, and from what I remember reading and hearing, I was very much not alone in that consensus. As a fan of both's previous New 52 titles, I was hoping they'd be better - but sadly, that was not to be.
I think DC Comics Presents was really mishandled. Even if he had a lot of positive buzz coming out of Brightest Day, you don't lead off your new anthology book with 5 issues of Deadman! And from the sound of it, not very good Deadman, either.
I think all anthology books have been mishanded since the first two volumes of Marvel Comics Presents. Also, wasn't the recent (a few years ago) series of Marvel Team-Up considered to be really good. I think Hickman wrote it.
I had trouble with the Deadman story too, which really disappointed me because I really like Paul Jenkins' work.
They probably should use it to highlight other titles as well as drumming up interest on other characters.
The only modern anthology comic I have really enjoyed was the original Dark Horse Presents. IIRC most of the stories were 8 pages long. So if there was a story you weren't interested in it didn't take up much room in the issue.
DeFalco on Legion Lost wasn't a good sign. I like the series.
I like the series too, but the initial concept almost set it up as a limited series from the get-go. I just hope that it'll be able to tell it's complete story. And if it does end, I sure hope Pete Woods winds up on another book I want to read.
If DC were to cancel those books that would be all of the mainstream DC books I am getting from them. After that I would be down to three fringe license books.
@Rocketdog - I'm reading Voodoo, and have no intentions of dropping it. I couldn't get into this version of Grifter, who is my favorite character out of the Wildstorm Universe and it's not that Grifter, I wanted to like the book but it just didn't work for me.
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That said, though, there are titles that didn't exist before the relaunch (or, in some cases, that hadn't existed in a long time) that are continuing to make the cut. Like Demon Knights, Batwing, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Justice League Dark, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Red Lanterns, and others. So while it is not surprising that the first cuts are of the less established ideas, it may be that there will still be some new, or longer lapsed, ideas that will still keep an audience and continue.
And looking at the second wave titles that are coming, I was glad to see that there are still some risks being taken- like Dial H for Hero. Given what has or hasn't worked, they could have gone conservative and had all the second wave titles fall right in line behind the Bat, Superman, and Justice League lines. And not all of them are doing that. It could be that something like Dial H could be the next surprise success like Animal Man. We'll see.
i don't know if D.C has the characters left to support their own books apart from Red Robin.Who else could there be ? ..... A team -up book maybe like Marvels
I had trouble with the Deadman story too, which really disappointed me because I really like Paul Jenkins' work.
They probably should use it to highlight other titles as well as drumming up interest on other characters.
I will be seriously disappointed if either of these comics disappear.
Also, add in that they have lost a LOT of power in the Time/Warner company after Paul Levitz was squeezed out (rumors are because DC wasn't showing growth and wasn't meeting profit benchmarks), they no longer keep books going in hopes that they will make up the losses in trades.
The other thing to remember is the Dark Horse has MUCH lower overhead and isn't part of a corporate structure, and Image creators pay to get their books published and get their pay on the back end, so to compare sales from them to DC really is apples vs organs.
As Mark Evanier said: The only reason any comic book is ever cancelled is that it is not making money. Period.
I think there is going to be a reshuffling of titles with some or all of the lower sales getting cycled out for something new. However they aren't cancelled at the time of this posting. BUT They aren't coming back from terrible sales.
I also agree with you're points on breakeven numbers. I don't care how many units Justice League/XMen/Avengers/Batman sells, if OMAC/Alpha Flight is losing money it needs to be cancelled. That's basic business. High profit titles do not need to carry unprofitable titles. Sometimes a loser is loser regardless of quality.
I'm just happy to have gotten 8 issues of O.M.A.C.
It was a true standard-bearer for Pure Comic-y Goodness(tm)!
And life is way too short for comics that don't blow you away. :)
"What do you mean we don't do good advertising? We run ads in CBG and Wizard, what MORE would you want us to do?" - Actual Marvel marketing person in 1994.
The only way I know about indy books is if they do podcast interviews or people push them on message boards. I've been burned too many times pre-ordering a book from a fairly established talent who loses interest and wanders off before he finishes the story, so I only know what's good if I hear good things about it through word of mouth. They aren't advertising to me, it seems.
I know that they are more well known and beloved characters, but I'm really more surprised that The Savage Hawkman and Green Arrow didn't make that list. Are they really selling better? I dropped both after checking out the first issue, as they were terrible, and from what I remember reading and hearing, I was very much not alone in that consensus. As a fan of both's previous New 52 titles, I was hoping they'd be better - but sadly, that was not to be.
I'll miss it once it's gone.
The only modern anthology comic I have really enjoyed was the original Dark Horse Presents. IIRC most of the stories were 8 pages long. So if there was a story you weren't interested in it didn't take up much room in the issue.