The biggest flaw with DKR stems from what many regard as the series greatest appeal. The trilogy's conceit of realism. There are nitpicks in Begins and TDK but you can forgive and overlook them. DKR however just seems to throw it out the window. Too many serious holes and flaws beyond the nitpicks. DKR tries to be too much and do too much and expects us to just accept too much.
The 'realism' is just limited to the trilogy. In 2000, following No Man's Land, DC was going to ground Batman in more realistic means. Its something I've always enjoyed about the character, he's only 1-2 degrees outside reality.
It's why 'killing' him, having a non-tactical suit, etc irritates me. Saying making Batman more realistic is a flaw is like saying the 60s Batman series is a flaw. I dislike the 60s version of the character, but I wouldn't say it was a flaw to do it. (The fact people have been buying the 60s Batman series & eagerly awaiting the DVD series release like its Gadot is proof of that.)
Nolan's Batman trilogy is by far my favorite trilogy (having realized there's a lot fewer true trilogies then I initially thought.) I couldn't be objective if I ignored the flaws in each movie. Then again, how many great movies lack any flaws or bend logic to some extent?
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
lol. i think you're looking for that last definition. I like "an enthusiastic devotee". I may start using that as a self-descriptor.
But of Superman, comic books, movies, or comic book movies? Which group(a) of fans were 'a lot' that didn't feel Man of Steel?
M
I thought I was pretty clear, but I'm talking comic book fans in general. And by that I mean people who buy comics on a regular basis.
I'm just basing this on what I’ve seen and heard in comic book fandom circles. As you've pointed out yourself, this message board seems to be split about 50/50 on Man of Steel, and that's generally what I've seen on Facebook (actually, I've seen probably more like 70/30 against MoS on Facebook, but that may be due more to my age and the ages of my friends) and the other message boards I visit now and then. Even if it’s only a third of comic fans didn’t think Man of Steel felt right, that’s still “a lot.”
Fair enough. I was questioning because your other 2 examples were mostly accepted by everyone, though I know a couple people who had issues with Nolan's Batman series. The biggest criticisms were League of Shadows (instead of Assassins) & Blake's name not being something else (trying to avoid spoilers for the handful who haven't seen TDKR) There's even an endangered species number of comic book fans who criticize the trilogy for not having Batman in (unrealistic, impractical, & laughable) tights!
I loved the trilogy's ending...I just wouldn't want to see it in the comic books.
M
I know the Batman films and Avengers were generally accepted by everyone—including most comic fans (again, those who buy comics on a regular basis). Any comic-based superhero film is going to its share of nitpickers. That's unavoidable, but you can nitpick and still enjoy a film. Nitpicking is not what I’m talking about though.
I was talking specifically about comic book fans (see above definition) and their gut reactions to comic book films. And I think whether such a film “feels right” boils down to characterization, not costume details, or getting the names exactly right, or any of the other nitpicking things you describe. It’s about the characters’ attitudes, dialogue, and actions, not their wardrobes.
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I know, right! Maggie Gyllenhal? really? lol! oh! thats priceless!
You talk about this movie like @neweathington talks about the Beatles.
Not quite. I tried to avoid making subjective arguments in that discussion. Though I will say the Beatles had a much more believable ending than TDKR. ;)
You talk about this movie like @neweathington talks about the Beatles.
Not quite. I tried to avoid making subjective arguments in that discussion. Though I will say the Beatles had a much more believable ending than TDKR. ;)
So you think Lennon is really dead & didn't faked his own death to escape Yoko?
And you had talked about meaningful music. Whenever I listen to "Rise" and the music chords shift to the montage sequence when Fox, Gordon, & Alfred realize the truth (especially Gordon's reaction for some reason), I think about the montage & get the feeling of hope.
If its more reassuring, most of my death faking contingency plans are more believable. 'It that urn really filled with my ashes or just with ashes I kept stored for years & slowly added DNA fragments (hair, nails, sunburn peeled skin, pulverized teeth I've saved since I began losing my baby teeth, etc?)"
If its more reassuring, most of my death faking contingency plans are more believable. 'It that urn really filled with my ashes or just with ashes I kept stored for years & slowly added DNA fragments (hair, nails, sunburn peeled skin, pulverized teeth I've saved since I began losing my baby teeth, etc?)"
You talk about this movie like @neweathington talks about the Beatles.
Not quite. I tried to avoid making subjective arguments in that discussion. Though I will say the Beatles had a much more believable ending than TDKR. ;)
So you think Lennon is really dead & didn't faked his own death to escape Yoko?
And you had talked about meaningful music. Whenever I listen to "Rise" and the music chords shift to the montage sequence when Fox, Gordon, & Alfred realize the truth (especially Gordon's reaction for some reason), I think about the montage & get the feeling of hope.
M
Hans Zimmer is a fantastic composer. John Williams is still the king of the memorable hook, but Zimmer is great with mood and sweeping, epic scores. He’s definitely one of the best in today’s industry.
If its more reassuring, most of my death faking contingency plans are more believable. 'It that urn really filled with my ashes or just with ashes I kept stored for years & slowly added DNA fragments (hair, nails, sunburn peeled skin, pulverized teeth I've saved since I began losing my baby teeth, etc?)"
M
Um, yeah. That's not weird.
Is it weird then to buy my wife a stungun & tell her to stash it somewhere in the house for protection? Hide some place even I don't know in the remote chance she needs protection from me?
As Wesley Wyndam-Pryce said: "Remember the three key words for any Slayer: Preparation... preparation... preparation"
If its more reassuring, most of my death faking contingency plans are more believable. 'It that urn really filled with my ashes or just with ashes I kept stored for years & slowly added DNA fragments (hair, nails, sunburn peeled skin, pulverized teeth I've saved since I began losing my baby teeth, etc?)"
M
Um, yeah. That's not weird.
Is it weird then to buy my wife a stungun & tell her to stash it somewhere in the house for protection? Hide some place even I don't know in the remote chance she needs protection from me?
As Wesley Wyndam-Pryce said: "Remember the three key words for any Slayer: Preparation... preparation... preparation"
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I know, right! Maggie Gyllenhal? really? lol! oh! thats priceless!
To each their own. But I say, Your loss. I find her more beautiful (and, more important to the story, more compelling, smarter, and more watchable) then whats-her-name from the first one.
Also, I actually can believe that Gyllenhal passed the bar.
Also- poor Man of Steel. If this thread is any indication, all anyone will want to talk about when they see the next movie is what they do with Batman.
Well, we've learned that three movies about a comic book character are NOT comic book movies, and Heath Ledger was nothing before he became Joker, and Maggie Gyllenhal is uber-ugly. So we got those amazing insights.
If its more reassuring, most of my death faking contingency plans are more believable. 'It that urn really filled with my ashes or just with ashes I kept stored for years & slowly added DNA fragments (hair, nails, sunburn peeled skin, pulverized teeth I've saved since I began losing my baby teeth, etc?)"
M
Um, yeah. That's not weird.
Is it weird then to buy my wife a stungun & tell her to stash it somewhere in the house for protection? Hide some place even I don't know in the remote chance she needs protection from me?
As Wesley Wyndam-Pryce said: "Remember the three key words for any Slayer: Preparation... preparation... preparation"
M
Yes. Yes, it is.
Looks like I'm wasting money on auto, home, life, & medical insurance!
If its more reassuring, most of my death faking contingency plans are more believable. 'It that urn really filled with my ashes or just with ashes I kept stored for years & slowly added DNA fragments (hair, nails, sunburn peeled skin, pulverized teeth I've saved since I began losing my baby teeth, etc?)"
M
Um, yeah. That's not weird.
Is it weird then to buy my wife a stungun & tell her to stash it somewhere in the house for protection? Hide some place even I don't know in the remote chance she needs protection from me?
As Wesley Wyndam-Pryce said: "Remember the three key words for any Slayer: Preparation... preparation... preparation"
M
Yes. Yes, it is.
Looks like I'm wasting money on auto, home, life, & medical insurance!
M
i don't quite think having health insurance is an apples to apples comparison to keeping a jar of toenails. and if you can't tell the difference between which one is normal and which one is borderline serial killer psycotic then i can't help you.
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I know, right! Maggie Gyllenhal? really? lol! oh! thats priceless!
To each their own. But I say, Your loss. I find her more beautiful (and, more important to the story, more compelling, smarter, and more watchable) then whats-her-name from the first one.
Also, I actually can believe that Gyllenhal passed the bar.
Firing squad, lethal injection, electrocution are each different, but all suck if you want to live.
Also- poor Man of Steel. If this thread is any indication, all anyone will want to talk about when they see the next movie is what they do with Batman.
One of the reasons I'm against him (& now Diana) appearing in the 'sequel.'
Also- poor Man of Steel. If this thread is any indication, all anyone will want to talk about when they see the next movie is what they do with Batman.
well. it is Superman vs. Batman. Apparently, Batman gets more fan love.
Well, we've learned that three movies about a comic book character are NOT comic book movies, and Heath Ledger was nothing before he became Joker, and Maggie Gyllenhal is uber-ugly. So we got those amazing insights.
Don't forget: flaws get amplified in movies you don't like, Superman talks lead into Batman discussions, & hoping for the best, but planning for the worst is weird.
Well, we've learned that three movies about a comic book character are NOT comic book movies, and Heath Ledger was nothing before he became Joker, and Maggie Gyllenhal is uber-ugly. So we got those amazing insights.
feel free to contribute any amazing insights of your own. but realize we are talking geek shit not the collected works of Immanuel Kant.
Well, we've learned that three movies about a comic book character are NOT comic book movies, and Heath Ledger was nothing before he became Joker, and Maggie Gyllenhal is uber-ugly. So we got those amazing insights.
Don't forget: flaws get amplified in movies you don't like, Superman talks lead into Batman discussions, & hoping for the best, but planning for the worst is weird.
M
it is impossible to plan for the unexpected by definition. and I get planning for an emergency, having canned good & potable water handy, possibly even a generator. But again keeping a collection of nail clippings and teeth seems...unhealthy.
giving your wife a taser to protect her from yourself in the event you are: turned into a zombie, possessed by evil spirits, taken over by body snatching alien parasite...MAY indicate an area of concern. just saying. 8-}
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I know, right! Maggie Gyllenhal? really? lol! oh! thats priceless!
To each their own. But I say, Your loss. I find her more beautiful (and, more important to the story, more compelling, smarter, and more watchable) then whats-her-name from the first one.
Also, I actually can believe that Gyllenhal passed the bar.
Well, Gyllenhaal went to Harvard-Westlake and Columbia University. Not saying she’d necessarily pass the bar, but she’s certainly no dummy.
And while I don’t think she’s not beautiful in the beauty pageant sense of the word, I do think she is incredibly attractive. Physical beauty and sexual appeal do not have to be mutually inclusive. One does not always equal the other.
Well, we've learned that three movies about a comic book character are NOT comic book movies, and Heath Ledger was nothing before he became Joker, and Maggie Gyllenhal is uber-ugly. So we got those amazing insights.
Don't forget: flaws get amplified in movies you don't like, Superman talks lead into Batman discussions, & hoping for the best, but planning for the worst is weird.
M
it is impossible to plan for the unexpected by definition. and I get planning for an emergency, having canned good & potable water handy, possibly even a generator. But again keeping a collection of nail clippings and teeth seems...unhealthy.
giving your wife a taser to protect her from yourself in the event you are: turned into a zombie, possessed by evil spirits, taken over by body snatching alien parasite...MAY indicate an area of concern. just saying. 8-}
The baby teeth were something my hoarder mom saved. I clip nails almost on a regular basis (no need to really save them.)
I think spousal abuse occurs all the time without any of those examples; drunks, insecure guys, herited rage, all things that can lead to spousal abuse (fortunately all things I lack.) 75% of rape victims are raped by a guy she knows.
I would say she should keep it for general protection then worry about from me. But having contingency plans never hurts!
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I know, right! Maggie Gyllenhal? really? lol! oh! thats priceless!
To each their own. But I say, Your loss. I find her more beautiful (and, more important to the story, more compelling, smarter, and more watchable) then whats-her-name from the first one.
Also, I actually can believe that Gyllenhal passed the bar.
Well, Gyllenhaal went to Harvard-Westlake and Columbia University. Not saying she’d necessarily pass the bar, but she’s certainly no dummy.
And while I don’t think she’s not beautiful in the beauty pageant sense of the word, I do think she is incredibly attractive. Physical beauty and sexual appeal do not have to be mutually inclusive. One does not always equal the other.
There is no question this is totally subjective. I don't find her attractive. thats just me.
sometimes movies ask us to suspend our disbelief and generally as long as they are internally consistent and follow their own film logic we accept that. DKR kicks me out of the movie and makes me aware of the problems. sometimes that happens because of weird things. I was watching Shoot Em Uo with my girl recently and i believe there was a scene where a character shot more bullets than the gun would hold. That pulled her out of the movie. I'm like, "Really? All the ridiculous stuff going on in this movie and THATS what you have trouble with?". IT is different for different people. DKR pushed my ability to believe too far.
I can see that. TDK took me out for a few moments when Bruce & Harvey were pining for the same woman that the Joker comment on her beauty; Maggie Gyllenhal.
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I know, right! Maggie Gyllenhal? really? lol! oh! thats priceless!
To each their own. But I say, Your loss. I find her more beautiful (and, more important to the story, more compelling, smarter, and more watchable) then whats-her-name from the first one.
Also, I actually can believe that Gyllenhal passed the bar.
Well, Gyllenhaal went to Harvard-Westlake and Columbia University. Not saying she’d necessarily pass the bar, but she’s certainly no dummy.
And while I don’t think she’s not beautiful in the beauty pageant sense of the word, I do think she is incredibly attractive. Physical beauty and sexual appeal do not have to be mutually inclusive. One does not always equal the other.
I don't think that alters my perspective on her attractiveness. I think Carmen Electra is sexy. I think Sarah Michelle Gellar & Anne Hathaway are extremely attractive. Carmen's...attributes far outweigh Sarah & Anne. I'd prefer to be involved in a relationship with Sarah or Anne because I know it'll be more then something physical (truthfully, hookers would be cheaper long term then a physical based relationship...I've crunched the numbers!)
I don't think that alters my perspective on her attractiveness. I think Carmen Electra is sexy. I think Sarah Michelle Gellar & Anne Hathaway are extremely attractive. Carmen's...attributes far outweigh Sarah & Anne. I'd prefer to be involved in a relationship with Sarah or Anne because I know it'll be more then something physical (truthfully, hookers would be cheaper long term then a physical based relationship...I've crunched the numbers!)
M
Absolutely, it’s completely subjective. I'm just pointing out that it’s not so surprising that someone does find her beautiful, and that she was fine for the role.
I don't think that alters my perspective on her attractiveness. I think Carmen Electra is sexy. I think Sarah Michelle Gellar & Anne Hathaway are extremely attractive. Carmen's...attributes far outweigh Sarah & Anne. I'd prefer to be involved in a relationship with Sarah or Anne because I know it'll be more then something physical (truthfully, hookers would be cheaper long term then a physical based relationship...I've crunched the numbers!)
M
Absolutely, it’s completely subjective. I'm just pointing out that it’s not so surprising that someone does find her beautiful, and that she was fine for the role.
Also- poor Man of Steel. If this thread is any indication, all anyone will want to talk about when they see the next movie is what they do with Batman.
well. it is Superman vs. Batman. Apparently, Batman gets more fan love.
Don't get me wrong. . . I'm sure Cavill, Snyder & Co. will be crying all the way to the bank (and, thanks to residuals, there will be many trips!)
Comments
It's why 'killing' him, having a non-tactical suit, etc irritates me. Saying making Batman more realistic is a flaw is like saying the 60s Batman series is a flaw. I dislike the 60s version of the character, but I wouldn't say it was a flaw to do it. (The fact people have been buying the 60s Batman series & eagerly awaiting the DVD series release like its Gadot is proof of that.)
Nolan's Batman trilogy is by far my favorite trilogy (having realized there's a lot fewer true trilogies then I initially thought.) I couldn't be objective if I ignored the flaws in each movie. Then again, how many great movies lack any flaws or bend logic to some extent?
M
Spider-man pulled me out for a few moments when Mary Jane seemed shocked she was told she needed acting lessons.
Chris Reeve's Superman movies pulled me out multiple times; starting with everyone immediately accepting him after saving Lois.
M
I was talking specifically about comic book fans (see above definition) and their gut reactions to comic book films. And I think whether such a film “feels right” boils down to characterization, not costume details, or getting the names exactly right, or any of the other nitpicking things you describe. It’s about the characters’ attitudes, dialogue, and actions, not their wardrobes.
And you had talked about meaningful music. Whenever I listen to "Rise" and the music chords shift to the montage sequence when Fox, Gordon, & Alfred realize the truth (especially Gordon's reaction for some reason), I think about the montage & get the feeling of hope.
M
M
As Wesley Wyndam-Pryce said:
"Remember the three key words for any Slayer: Preparation... preparation... preparation"
M
Also, I actually can believe that Gyllenhal passed the bar.
M
M
M
M
giving your wife a taser to protect her from yourself in the event you are: turned into a zombie, possessed by evil spirits, taken over by body snatching alien parasite...MAY indicate an area of concern. just saying. 8-}
And while I don’t think she’s not beautiful in the beauty pageant sense of the word, I do think she is incredibly attractive. Physical beauty and sexual appeal do not have to be mutually inclusive. One does not always equal the other.
I think spousal abuse occurs all the time without any of those examples; drunks, insecure guys, herited rage, all things that can lead to spousal abuse (fortunately all things I lack.) 75% of rape victims are raped by a guy she knows.
I would say she should keep it for general protection then worry about from me. But having contingency plans never hurts!
M
M