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Marvel on Netflix- DD, JJ, LC, IF and Defenders (non-spoiler)

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Comments

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Matt said:

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
    Perhaps "criminal" is the better monicker, much more than say "anti-hero"
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314

    Matt said:

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
    Perhaps "criminal" is the better monicker, much more than say "anti-hero"
    Murderous psychopath, perhaps?
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
    Perhaps "criminal" is the better monicker, much more than say "anti-hero"
    Murderous psychopath, perhaps?
    I'm not certain I'd use "psychopath". That implies to me something about service people in a war that I don't like implying. (HUGE NOTE: that's MY implication, I'm NOT stating that was your implication OR intent.)


    (Again MY implication)

    M


    (MY implication)
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    Still MY implication.

    M
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
    Perhaps "criminal" is the better monicker, much more than say "anti-hero"
    Murderous psychopath, perhaps?
    I'm not certain I'd use "psychopath". That implies to me something about service people in a war that I don't like implying. (HUGE NOTE: that's MY implication, I'm NOT stating that was your implication OR intent.)


    (Again MY implication)

    M


    (MY implication)
    The only war he's in is the one he's created in his mind.

    That's why I say psychopath.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    Still MY implication.

    M

    WHOSE implication?
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    Still MY implication.

    M

    BTW: Through the power of free association, I how have "Weird Science" in my head.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,782
    Regarding whether or not Punisher was meant to be a villain when he first appeared, Punisher co-creator Gerry Conway gave a great interview on the subject a few years ago.

    The word he chooses, at least these many years after the fact, is not villain, but that he was supposed to be a "foil":
    My original concept for The Punisher, was that as a character he was a foil. The way I was structuring that particular storyline, it was an introduction for this character The Jackal and I was trying to, in my own clumsy way, to parallel the development of the Green Goblin as a character. We saw the Green Goblin initially in conflict with other villains and he was sort of behind the scenes a bit, and slowly came out into the foreground. And that was my intention for the Jackal, but in order to do that I needed to have another character for the first story or so who would be in the foreground and would be the initial foil that Spider-Man was going to encounter. At that time there was a cultural movement in America with the [1974 movie] Death Wish phenomena, the vigilante character The Executioner, the Dirty Harry notion – the idea of the lone outsider striking against the system – and I thought it would be interesting if a character like that was manipulated into taking action against Spider-Man.
    More at the link. It is an interesting read.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
    Perhaps "criminal" is the better monicker, much more than say "anti-hero"
    Murderous psychopath, perhaps?
    I'm not certain I'd use "psychopath". That implies to me something about service people in a war that I don't like implying. (HUGE NOTE: that's MY implication, I'm NOT stating that was your implication OR intent.)


    (Again MY implication)

    M


    (MY implication)
    The only war he's in is the one he's created in his mind.

    That's why I say psychopath.
    Couldn't you say that about any vigilante?

    M
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Stan Lee says that the people over at The Hashtag Show are saying they got a hold of some news that Marvel is looking into making a Thunderbolts TV show with Netflix.

    image
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    WetRats said:

    Matt said:

    The Punisher should be a villain. He was when he first appeared.

    Was he or was he just misled? I'll have to reread the issue.

    M
    Perhaps "criminal" is the better monicker, much more than say "anti-hero"
    Murderous psychopath, perhaps?
    I'm not certain I'd use "psychopath". That implies to me something about service people in a war that I don't like implying. (HUGE NOTE: that's MY implication, I'm NOT stating that was your implication OR intent.)


    (Again MY implication)

    M


    (MY implication)
    The only war he's in is the one he's created in his mind.

    That's why I say psychopath.
    Couldn't you say that about any vigilante?

    M
    Any one that considers himself at war, yes.
  • HexHex Posts: 923

    Stan Lee says that the people over at The Hashtag Show are saying they got a hold of some news that Marvel is looking into making a Thunderbolts TV show with Netflix.

    image

    That would be awesome. Thunderbolts have always been a favourite of mine. Hopefully it will be the original version (villains posing as heroes) and not the most recent incarnation. Although the more recent version would probably work better (Punisher, Elektra, etc.) for Netflix.
    If DC's Suicide Squad does well (and there is no reason to believe it won't), Marvel's version of "Villainous Heroes" should do well too.
  • fredzillafredzilla Posts: 2,119
    Hex said:

    Stan Lee says that the people over at The Hashtag Show are saying they got a hold of some news that Marvel is looking into making a Thunderbolts TV show with Netflix.

    image

    ...If DC's Suicide Squad does well (and there is no reason to believe it won't)...
    image
  • mphilmphil Posts: 369
    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,782
    edited July 2015
    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    Now this, I agree with. He's a trained soldier. He's driven, motivated, etc. It doesn't mean I agree with Castle's methods, but he hasn't proven to be a terrorist hitting targets & not caring about collateral damage in his war.

    M
  • batlawbatlaw Posts: 866
    Just my two cents and not that its anything to quibble about, but I agree."psychopath" isn't exactly a fair or apt label to put on the Punisher.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,782
    Matt said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    Now this, I agree with. He's a trained soldier. He's driven, motivated, etc. It doesn't mean I agree with Castle's methods, but he hasn't proven to be a terrorist hitting targets & not caring about collateral damage in his war.

    M
    He has also been written to be very careful about the police-- often the greatest obstacle in his mission, or the thing that gets him caught the many times he has ended up in jail, is that he is not willing to hurt police in the course of what he is doing. A psychopath would not be so careful or consistent in that principle.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    So, from my understanding of what you're alluding to here:

    "The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to."

    You don't like Spider-man?

    Has his mental state diminished if, as @david_d illustrated, he's only been arrested because they aren't his targets?

    I have no resources to cite, but I would deduce that following the tragic death of his family, Castle reverted what he knew best; his military training.

    Is that "becoming what he's fighting"? As a highly trained soldier, isn't he essentially a trained killer? As a highly trained soldier, is he not trained to also protect? By eliminating criminals, is that not what he's essentially doing?

    Whose to fear Castle? You, me, that person who peed in the street? The fear angle is directed to whom these vigilantes are targeting.

    In reality, the number of those people who'd be positively effected by your "Boy Scouts" are significant less then those who'd fear the vigilantes you're repulse by.

    M
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    Matt said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    So, from my understanding of what you're alluding to here:

    "The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to."

    You don't like Spider-man?

    Has his mental state diminished if, as @david_d illustrated, he's only been arrested because they aren't his targets?

    I have no resources to cite, but I would deduce that following the tragic death of his family, Castle reverted what he knew best; his military training.

    Is that "becoming what he's fighting"? As a highly trained soldier, isn't he essentially a trained killer? As a highly trained soldier, is he not trained to also protect? By eliminating criminals, is that not what he's essentially doing?

    Whose to fear Castle? You, me, that person who peed in the street? The fear angle is directed to whom these vigilantes are targeting.

    In reality, the number of those people who'd be positively effected by your "Boy Scouts" are significant less then those who'd fear the vigilantes you're repulse by.

    M
    I'd say that Spider-Man chooses to do good. He's inspired by the memory of Uncle Ben's memory, but he's choosing to accept the responsibility that comes with his powers, not compelled to constantly seek vengeance for Ben's death.

    I don't see The Punisher as a protector, I see him as a hunter. A punisher. He has quite literally appointed himself judge, jury and executioner. Spider-Man stops the bad guys, and then leaves them webbed up for the cops and the justice system to deal with. He does not become a law unto himself.

    Spider-Man is helping. The Punisher is punishing.

    Spider-Man is still trying to function as a part of civilized society. The Punisher has put himself above society. He is imposing his own rules.

    This isn't subtle.



    Oh, and who's to fear Castle? My first exposure to the character was when he was trying to kill Spider-Man from ambush. My second exposure was when he was summarily executing jaywalkers. He wears a giant freaking skull on his chest. He's all about inspiring fear!
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    @wetrats I'm right there with you. I was just about to post, "a psychopath is a willful, aggressive, self-centered person who cannot tolerate delay or frustration. He or she frequently appears pleasant and well mannered upon first acquaintance but it soon becomes apparent that they are incapable for forming close relationships". Such behavior is not a negative in all aspects of society and some psychopaths will be found in positions of authority.


  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,782
    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    As they say, 'I'm no scientist', but from my reading of the definition, as well as from Ronson's excellent book The Psychopath Test, if Castle were a psychopath, he would be less consistent and predictable in his codes and principles, he would have more self-interest than he does, and generally he would be less miserable, as he would be less haunted by guilt and remorse.

    He certainly fails the hero test, and the what-you-want-to-read test, but having read a lot of Punisher, I think they write for him in a way that makes him a foil, like Conway said, a criminal, and an anti-hero. But not actually a psychopath or a sociopath. He is doing the wrong things, I believe, but he is aware of the consequences of what he is doing, and he is doing them for a reason that is rooted in the loss of his family, and what he believes about justice and society. I think he is legally sane, though not a hero.
  • WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    David_D said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    As they say, 'I'm no scientist', but from my reading of the definition, as well as from Ronson's excellent book The Psychopath Test, if Castle were a psychopath, he would be less consistent and predictable in his codes and principles, he would have more self-interest than he does, and generally he would be less miserable, as he would be less haunted by guilt and remorse.

    He certainly fails the hero test, and the what-you-want-to-read test, but having read a lot of Punisher, I think they write for him in a way that makes him a foil, like Conway said, a criminal, and an anti-hero. But not actually a psychopath or a sociopath. He is doing the wrong things, I believe, but he is aware of the consequences of what he is doing, and he is doing them for a reason that is rooted in the loss of his family, and what he believes about justice and society. I think he is legally sane, though not a hero.
    Again, I bow to your greater knowledge of the character.

    For me, the defining aspect of the character was when he was executing jaywalkers.

    Seems less-than-sane to me.
  • DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,579
    At this point, they've retconNed the jaywalking stuff ever happened, right?

    I feel like it has been.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,782
    edited July 2015
    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    As they say, 'I'm no scientist', but from my reading of the definition, as well as from Ronson's excellent book The Psychopath Test, if Castle were a psychopath, he would be less consistent and predictable in his codes and principles, he would have more self-interest than he does, and generally he would be less miserable, as he would be less haunted by guilt and remorse.

    He certainly fails the hero test, and the what-you-want-to-read test, but having read a lot of Punisher, I think they write for him in a way that makes him a foil, like Conway said, a criminal, and an anti-hero. But not actually a psychopath or a sociopath. He is doing the wrong things, I believe, but he is aware of the consequences of what he is doing, and he is doing them for a reason that is rooted in the loss of his family, and what he believes about justice and society. I think he is legally sane, though not a hero.
    Again, I bow to your greater knowledge of the character.

    For me, the defining aspect of the character was when he was executing jaywalkers.

    Seems less-than-sane to me.
    Got it. Yes. In that tiny blip of the character's history, that would be insane. I haven't read those, but I would guess that was a direction for the character when they thought he would be a disposable commentary on the Death Wish trend in movies.

    I thought we were talking about the 99.9% of Punisher that has come since those earliest appearances. The modern (Steven Grant-on) Punisher that was leading books. All my own comments on him are from that era onwards.

    EDIT- On a quick Google, my suspicion is confirmed that those 'shooting jaywalker' stories were not by Conway, but by Bill Mantlo, and have been long considered 'wildly out of character' by fans (and, probably, was by Conway, too, though I don't think Conway thought the character would last, so maybe he didn't care if someone took the character in a very different direction).

    More on that here, including Grant's retcon to do away with/explain away that incident.

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,205
    David_D said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    WetRats said:

    David_D said:

    Matt said:

    mphil said:

    The Punisher IS a murderous psychopath. FrankenCastle, on the other hand... Who doesn't love him?

    I still disagree with the word "psychopath".

    M
    I also disagree. I don't think, at least how he is usually written, that Castle fits with what we know of the main traits psychopathy. I think he does have empathy. Sure, not for his own victims, but he is driven by empathy for THEIR victims. He tends to be methodical and principled rather than impulsive. And his life is filled with remorse.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, he doesn't make healthy or heroic choices, he is a criminal, and I wouldn't want to be him. But I think, especially when written well, that he is not as simple as "psycho" or "crazy". His violence is not senseless. And his stories are not everybody's cuppa, but there have been a lot I have found compelling. Whether as a foil for heroes that don't go as far as he does. Or as the lead in his own, dark, pulp crime stories. And in the many that Garth Ennis has written, especially his superb run on Punisher MAX, Castle became as much a vessel for telling some crime genre stories, as he was the fascinating criminal in the middle of them. Like so much of Ennis' work, the stories were violent, but also about the consequences of violence. Including Castle's own.
    OK.

    I don't have a handy copy of the DSM, so I'm resorting to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. (emphasis mine.)

    "...traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations. The definition of psychopathy has varied significantly throughout the history of the concept; different definitions continue to be used that are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory."

    I will confess I have not read very many Punisher comics, because I find the character repulsive, but every time I've read anything with him, the above description seems to apply.

    Yes, the above applies to many comic book vigilantes, especially post-Dark Knight Returns. I find most of those characters repulsive as well.

    When it comes down to it, I prefer my superheroes to be the ones derided as "boy scouts".

    The ones who choose to do good, not those who are driven to.

    The ones who resist the urge to become as dark as the things they are fighting against.

    The ones who inspire hope, rather than fear.

    You know...

    Heroes.
    As they say, 'I'm no scientist', but from my reading of the definition, as well as from Ronson's excellent book The Psychopath Test, if Castle were a psychopath, he would be less consistent and predictable in his codes and principles, he would have more self-interest than he does, and generally he would be less miserable, as he would be less haunted by guilt and remorse.

    He certainly fails the hero test, and the what-you-want-to-read test, but having read a lot of Punisher, I think they write for him in a way that makes him a foil, like Conway said, a criminal, and an anti-hero. But not actually a psychopath or a sociopath. He is doing the wrong things, I believe, but he is aware of the consequences of what he is doing, and he is doing them for a reason that is rooted in the loss of his family, and what he believes about justice and society. I think he is legally sane, though not a hero.
    Again, I bow to your greater knowledge of the character.

    For me, the defining aspect of the character was when he was executing jaywalkers.

    Seems less-than-sane to me.
    Got it. Yes. In that tiny blip of the character's history, that would be insane. I haven't read those, but I would guess that was a direction for the character when they thought he would be a disposable commentary on the Death Wish trend in movies.

    I thought we were talking about the 99.9% of Punisher that has come since those earliest appearances. The modern (Steven Grant-on) Punisher that was leading books. All my own comments on him are from that era onwards.
    Absolutely. This would be like someone stating they dislike Superman because of his energized era.

    M
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