if this does work out the way we seem to be expecting there is at least one bright side. He won't have electrical powers. although he will have a lightning blot on his chest...dammit!
Sleepy Hollow makes good use of a diverse cast. The characters are who they are and we just kind of accept them. Michael Clarke Duncan was a solid Kingpin. but as a general I would prefer not changing existing characters. If Marvel or DC wants a more diverse universe hire a more divers group of writers & artists.
this is a great interview with Dwayne McDuffie on this very subject.
But we don't have a market that's been very friendly to new superheroic characters in the Big two. The characters that have lasted are the ones who were created when diverisity wasn't even a word. I mean, lets make a list of all the characters at Marvel and DC from the last 25 years that have really broken out.
If the actor in the TV series was the best person to big Wally to life isn't Caucasian, that's one thing. If all this was altered to make a racially diverse cast, then it sucks. That means the racial composite of the actor & character was too major of a factor.
I disagree.
I'm all for racially-diverse casts whenever possible.
The only way to get beyond tokenism is to cast as diversely as possible, so we get to the point we don't even notice.
Yes & no. One of my favorite characters on LOST was Michael. If the character's description before auditions included "an African-American male" or "a minority male" then I have an issue with the whole character creation process. If the race of the character isn't addressed in the description & Harold Perrineau came in & nailed the part, then I don't see the issue with diversity.
If the actor best to play Wally isn't Caucasian, I can rationalize the difference from the source material. If they used a minority Flash instead of Wally, that'd be cool. When they start reworking characters to make the universe more diverse, I kind of have an issue. The reasoning behind the Is something I don't agree with.
M
I agree with you if your issue is with general tokenism. But race adds to your experiences in life and are a valid part of one's identity. If creators envision a character as having come from a particular background and it informs their voice and actions, even if its otherwise irrelevant to the story then I think it's still an acceptable decision to look for someone in casting that matches that. If the showrunners on the Flash TV show want to do more than be "diverse" and actually have a diversity of voices and viewpoints for their characters then I am for a non-white Wally West. But this is the CW and I'll always suspect they are just trying to hit quadrants.
if this does work out the way we seem to be expecting there is at least one bright side. He won't have electrical powers. although he will have a lightning blot on his chest...dammit!
Every time I see a black character with an electrical power set I always think, "Who takes 'Black Power' this literally?"
Let me begin by saying that I like almost every black super hero character that I've ever read - notably T'Challa, Luke Cage, Giant Man, etc). I don't have any problem with diversity in comics. I also have no problem when a person of different ethnic origin takes the mantle from another hero - as in Monica Rambeau taking over the Captain Marvel role in the 80's. What I dislike is when a character is retconned or updated that I grew up with and easily identify - such as the Flash or the Human Torch.
A lot of people have referred to Kingpin and even the new Electro as being changed to black actors. I usually have no problem with them changing the villains to any nationality they like - except I was woefully unimpressed wih the Mandarin in IM3.
Could DC not have made up a Flash replacement - maybe even call him "Blue Streak"? This feels like PC shoe-horning for the sake of diversity. And while I have no problem with Gal Gadot in the role of Wonder Woman, I think it would be a bit weird if the actress looked like Monica Rambeau.
And that's my problem. I know basically what the avatar of the Flash, Superman, and Batman all look like. It isn't a problem with skin color, it's with the way they look. A terrible costume change makes me feel the same unless it's done smartly - as Chris Nolan did with Batman. If you want a new look for the character, change who it is or do what Peter David did with the Hulk and change his color as part of the narrative. A Muslim Ms marvel isn't the same thing because it's an all new character.
We already know who he is and what Wally West looks like. We've gotten to know him. Would you try to present a beardless Asian Santa Claus? Of course not. I hope this is just an unfounded rumor because I've really been hoping Wally would one day return and fix this whole New 52 mess. That's probably why I'm so bugged about this :)
Sleepy Hollow makes good use of a diverse cast. The characters are who they are and we just kind of accept them. Michael Clarke Duncan was a solid Kingpin. but as a general I would prefer not changing existing characters. If Marvel or DC wants a more diverse universe hire a more divers group of writers & artists.
this is a great interview with Dwayne McDuffie on this very subject.
But we don't have a market that's been very friendly to new superheroic characters in the Big two. The characters that have lasted are the ones who were created when diverisity wasn't even a word. I mean, lets make a list of all the characters at Marvel and DC from the last 25 years that have really broken out.
If the actor in the TV series was the best person to big Wally to life isn't Caucasian, that's one thing. If all this was altered to make a racially diverse cast, then it sucks. That means the racial composite of the actor & character was too major of a factor.
I disagree.
I'm all for racially-diverse casts whenever possible.
The only way to get beyond tokenism is to cast as diversely as possible, so we get to the point we don't even notice.
Yes & no. One of my favorite characters on LOST was Michael. If the character's description before auditions included "an African-American male" or "a minority male" then I have an issue with the whole character creation process. If the race of the character isn't addressed in the description & Harold Perrineau came in & nailed the part, then I don't see the issue with diversity.
If the actor best to play Wally isn't Caucasian, I can rationalize the difference from the source material. If they used a minority Flash instead of Wally, that'd be cool. When they start reworking characters to make the universe more diverse, I kind of have an issue. The reasoning behind the Is something I don't agree with.
M
I agree with you if your issue is with general tokenism. But race adds to your experiences in life and are a valid part of one's identity. If creators envision a character as having come from a particular background and it informs their voice and actions, even if its otherwise irrelevant to the story then I think it's still an acceptable decision to look for someone in casting that matches that. If the showrunners on the Flash TV show want to do more than be "diverse" and actually have a diversity of voices and viewpoints for their characters then I am for a non-white Wally West. But this is the CW and I'll always suspect they are just trying to hit quadrants.
I'd say the only alteration I'd make is that diversity adds to your experience. I get to interact with all kinds of people through work. It's why I'm not biased against any specific group.
There are a lot of shitty actors who have the same shade as me. There are a lot of amazing actors who don't. I presume the great actor, Idris Elba, was cast as Heimdall because of what he brought to the role & not because he's adding diversity to the cast.
Sleepy Hollow makes good use of a diverse cast. The characters are who they are and we just kind of accept them. Michael Clarke Duncan was a solid Kingpin. but as a general I would prefer not changing existing characters. If Marvel or DC wants a more diverse universe hire a more divers group of writers & artists.
this is a great interview with Dwayne McDuffie on this very subject.
But we don't have a market that's been very friendly to new superheroic characters in the Big two. The characters that have lasted are the ones who were created when diverisity wasn't even a word. I mean, lets make a list of all the characters at Marvel and DC from the last 25 years that have really broken out.
If the actor in the TV series was the best person to big Wally to life isn't Caucasian, that's one thing. If all this was altered to make a racially diverse cast, then it sucks. That means the racial composite of the actor & character was too major of a factor.
I disagree.
I'm all for racially-diverse casts whenever possible.
The only way to get beyond tokenism is to cast as diversely as possible, so we get to the point we don't even notice.
Yes & no. One of my favorite characters on LOST was Michael. If the character's description before auditions included "an African-American male" or "a minority male" then I have an issue with the whole character creation process. If the race of the character isn't addressed in the description & Harold Perrineau came in & nailed the part, then I don't see the issue with diversity.
If the actor best to play Wally isn't Caucasian, I can rationalize the difference from the source material. If they used a minority Flash instead of Wally, that'd be cool. When they start reworking characters to make the universe more diverse, I kind of have an issue. The reasoning behind the Is something I don't agree with.
M
I agree with you if your issue is with general tokenism. But race adds to your experiences in life and are a valid part of one's identity. If creators envision a character as having come from a particular background and it informs their voice and actions, even if its otherwise irrelevant to the story then I think it's still an acceptable decision to look for someone in casting that matches that. If the showrunners on the Flash TV show want to do more than be "diverse" and actually have a diversity of voices and viewpoints for their characters then I am for a non-white Wally West. But this is the CW and I'll always suspect they are just trying to hit quadrants.
I'd say the only alteration I'd make is that diversity adds to your experience. I get to interact with all kinds of people through work. It's why I'm not biased against any specific group.
There are a lot of shitty actors who have the same shade as me. There are a lot of amazing actors who don't. I presume the great actor, Idris Elba, was cast as Heimdall because of what he brought to the role & not because he's adding diversity to the cast.
In case you haven't guessed, I hate being lectured & and told what to do.
M
I hope you don't think I was lecturing to you. I agree with pretty much everything you've said on the subject. But too often I think the conversation about race is that there shouldn't be one at all, that saying everyone is the same, instead of exploring and learning to respect and even take joy in differences, is somehow supporting diversity. I agree that when the specifics of a character aren't an issue casting should go to the person who adds the most to the role regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation or gender, (when appropriate). But if you are going to seek out a minority actor for a role, especially one that has traditionally been white, it should be done with intention and not to check a box, blackwashing for the sake of "diversity".
The same way that great casting adds to a character's portrayal, so does writing, direction and intention and if making Wally West black some how adds to the character and to the vision of the creators meaningfully then I'm for it. But I'm also a cynic and think that this is almost always a case of pandering and when I think that is the case (because navigating the delicate nuances of race (or for that matter any kind of minority) and culture is something the media is really great at) I'm with you. Intention matters a great deal.
Modernizing your lineup of characters to better reflect the readership you have- as well as the readership you wish to continue to attract- is not political. It's business.
As for knowing who Wally West was, I think "was" is the operative word. It is the New 52. And every once in awhile (perhaps too rarely to really feel "New") they actually make use of the opportunity to have us feel like we are meeting new characters, or that we may not know what to expect.
As for why to still have this be a character with the Flash mantle rather than entirely new? See the graveyard of attempts to launch COMPLETELY new things in the Big 2. As a readership, we have trained them not to do so. We have trained them to keep giving us more of the same. So that even a new spin on an old character feels like a noteworthy thing.
Sleepy Hollow makes good use of a diverse cast. The characters are who they are and we just kind of accept them. Michael Clarke Duncan was a solid Kingpin. but as a general I would prefer not changing existing characters. If Marvel or DC wants a more diverse universe hire a more divers group of writers & artists.
this is a great interview with Dwayne McDuffie on this very subject.
But we don't have a market that's been very friendly to new superheroic characters in the Big two. The characters that have lasted are the ones who were created when diverisity wasn't even a word. I mean, lets make a list of all the characters at Marvel and DC from the last 25 years that have really broken out.
If the actor in the TV series was the best person to big Wally to life isn't Caucasian, that's one thing. If all this was altered to make a racially diverse cast, then it sucks. That means the racial composite of the actor & character was too major of a factor.
I disagree.
I'm all for racially-diverse casts whenever possible.
The only way to get beyond tokenism is to cast as diversely as possible, so we get to the point we don't even notice.
Yes & no. One of my favorite characters on LOST was Michael. If the character's description before auditions included "an African-American male" or "a minority male" then I have an issue with the whole character creation process. If the race of the character isn't addressed in the description & Harold Perrineau came in & nailed the part, then I don't see the issue with diversity.
If the actor best to play Wally isn't Caucasian, I can rationalize the difference from the source material. If they used a minority Flash instead of Wally, that'd be cool. When they start reworking characters to make the universe more diverse, I kind of have an issue. The reasoning behind the Is something I don't agree with.
M
I agree with you if your issue is with general tokenism. But race adds to your experiences in life and are a valid part of one's identity. If creators envision a character as having come from a particular background and it informs their voice and actions, even if its otherwise irrelevant to the story then I think it's still an acceptable decision to look for someone in casting that matches that. If the showrunners on the Flash TV show want to do more than be "diverse" and actually have a diversity of voices and viewpoints for their characters then I am for a non-white Wally West. But this is the CW and I'll always suspect they are just trying to hit quadrants.
I'd say the only alteration I'd make is that diversity adds to your experience. I get to interact with all kinds of people through work. It's why I'm not biased against any specific group.
There are a lot of shitty actors who have the same shade as me. There are a lot of amazing actors who don't. I presume the great actor, Idris Elba, was cast as Heimdall because of what he brought to the role & not because he's adding diversity to the cast.
In case you haven't guessed, I hate being lectured & and told what to do.
M
I hope you don't think I was lecturing to you. I agree with pretty much everything you've said on the subject. But too often I think the conversation about race is that there shouldn't be one at all, that saying everyone is the same, instead of exploring and learning to respect and even take joy in differences, is somehow supporting diversity. I agree that when the specifics of a character aren't an issue casting should go to the person who adds the most to the role regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation or gender, (when appropriate). But if you are going to seek out a minority actor for a role, especially one that has traditionally been white, it should be done with intention and not to check a box, blackwashing for the sake of "diversity".
The same way that great casting adds to a character's portrayal, so does writing, direction and intention and if making Wally West black some how adds to the character and to the vision of the creators meaningfully then I'm for it. But I'm also a cynic and think that this is almost always a case of pandering and when I think that is the case (because navigating the delicate nuances of race (or for that matter any kind of minority) and culture is something the media is really great at) I'm with you. Intention matters a great deal.
Nope, we're in complete agreement. The lecture post was a tie-in to the Ruffalo wanting an Eco-awareness Hulk movie. The told what to do portion is basically in line with your cynical notion. I share it as well.
Don't get me wrong, I love diversity & the experience it can bring. Its the main reason why I hated those negative feedback icons. There was diversity of opinions, but left open ended to discuss it.
I'll be the first to admit I go overboard (perhaps way too much, according to my wife) when it comes to getting everyone to agree on the facts. Sometimes it seems like I want everyone to agree with me. That's not the case.
For example, if we find an branch on the ground, as long as both people agree it IS a branch, about 3', and on the ground, THEN I have no problems discussing what tree each of us think it fell from. Not everyone has to agree with me on the tree, just be in agreement on the facts of what is on the ground.
Even if I don't agree with someone else's opinion, I enjoy listening to his/her thought process of how the opinion was formed. I go a little overboard when others deny the facts or don't share their thought processes.
Modernizing your lineup of characters to better reflect the readership you have- as well as the readership you wish to continue to attract- is not political. It's business.
As for knowing who Wally West was, I think "was" is the operative word. It is the New 52. And every once in awhile (perhaps too rarely to really feel "New") they actually make use of the opportunity to have us feel like we are meeting new characters, or that we may not know what to expect.
As for why to still have this be a character with the Flash mantle rather than entirely new? See the graveyard of attempts to launch COMPLETELY new things in the Big 2. As a readership, we have trained them not to do so. We have trained them to keep giving us more of the same. So that even a new spin on an old character feels like a noteworthy thing.
Shorter version: DC is so greedy they'll unnecessarily reinvent/reboot an established character because they can't come up with any new ideas that hook. Sort of the same reason Hollywood reboots recent film franchises.
And I don't think it's because their audience was demanding a black Flash. They just have no new ideas and making an established character black or gay or Muslim is what passes for "edgy" these days.
You're welcome to blame readers for "training" them as you put it, but I place the blame squarely on vapid management, lack of creativity, or traditional laziness.
Modernizing your lineup of characters to better reflect the readership you have- as well as the readership you wish to continue to attract- is not political. It's business.
As for knowing who Wally West was, I think "was" is the operative word. It is the New 52. And every once in awhile (perhaps too rarely to really feel "New") they actually make use of the opportunity to have us feel like we are meeting new characters, or that we may not know what to expect.
As for why to still have this be a character with the Flash mantle rather than entirely new? See the graveyard of attempts to launch COMPLETELY new things in the Big 2. As a readership, we have trained them not to do so. We have trained them to keep giving us more of the same. So that even a new spin on an old character feels like a noteworthy thing.
Shorter version: DC is so greedy they'll unnecessarily reinvent/reboot an established character because they can't come up with any new ideas that hook. Sort of the same reason Hollywood reboots recent film franchises.
And I don't think it's because their audience was demanding a black Flash. They just have no new ideas and making an established character black or gay or Muslim is what passes for "edgy" these days.
You're welcome to blame readers for "training" them as you put it, but I place the blame squarely on vapid management, lack of creativity, or traditional laziness.
I would bet they have plenty of new ideas. But when they publish them people don't buy them. So I don't blame them for constantly reusing and reinventing the same properties, as that seems to be what we want them to do.
Also that a hero is black could even be perceived as an attempt to be "edgy" in 2014 is a reminder of why diversifying the line to catch up with the world is business that the Big 2 comics is still behind the curve on.
Rationalize it however you like, but I for one support new characters. And you can continue to insist that we need more diversity in comics while I can insist that nothing DC has done in the last 3 years has been a good idea, and I don't expect them to change now.
Rationalize it however you like, but I for one support new characters. And you can continue to insist that we need more diversity in comics while I can insist that nothing DC has done in the last 3 years has been a good idea, and I don't expect them to change now.
Modernizing your lineup of characters to better reflect the readership you have- as well as the readership you wish to continue to attract- is not political. It's business.
As for knowing who Wally West was, I think "was" is the operative word. It is the New 52. And every once in awhile (perhaps too rarely to really feel "New") they actually make use of the opportunity to have us feel like we are meeting new characters, or that we may not know what to expect.
As for why to still have this be a character with the Flash mantle rather than entirely new? See the graveyard of attempts to launch COMPLETELY new things in the Big 2. As a readership, we have trained them not to do so. We have trained them to keep giving us more of the same. So that even a new spin on an old character feels like a noteworthy thing.
Shorter version: DC is so greedy they'll unnecessarily reinvent/reboot an established character because they can't come up with any new ideas that hook. Sort of the same reason Hollywood reboots recent film franchises.
And I don't think it's because their audience was demanding a black Flash. They just have no new ideas and making an established character black or gay or Muslim is what passes for "edgy" these days.
You're welcome to blame readers for "training" them as you put it, but I place the blame squarely on vapid management, lack of creativity, or traditional laziness.
I would bet they have plenty of new ideas. But when they publish them people don't buy them. So I don't blame them for constantly reusing and reinventing the same properties, as that seems to be what we want them to do.
Also that a hero is black could even be perceived as an attempt to be "edgy" in 2014 is a reminder of why diversifying the line to catch up with the world is business that the Big 2 comics is still behind the curve on.
This is a lose/lose situation for DC. If they don't add diversity to their books, people cry out that they don’t care about black readers or women readers, etc. When they do create diverse characters, no one buys them.
Anyone remember Milestone? Some very good books by talented creators, including the aforementioned Dwayne McDuffie, with interesting characters, and they were all cancelled within four years. Anyone read Static Shock or Xombi when they were relaunched not that long ago? Can’t speak to Static, but Xombi was excellent—and more interesting than anything else DC was doing at the time IMO—and got canned after six issues.
Static is a cool enough character that he can star in a very successful cartoon, but for some reason he can’t be a perennial seller as a comic. What that says to me is that, generally speaking, the core DC fans want to read about Batman and Superman, and to a lesser extent Green Lantern and Flash, and to a still lesser extent, the rest of the Super Friends... but not much else. And the monthly sales figures back that up every month for as far back as you want to go.
And it has nothing to do with vapid management (though there is certainly enough evidence that it exists there), creativity (it’s often the case that DC’s poorer selling titles are the more creative ones in my experience—see Xombi above), or laziness (deadline rush, maybe, but certainly not laziness).
So because some characters and new titles don't fly they should change the ethnicity of established characters? Does DC suppose that most black comic book readers won't think changing Wally West into a black man is a little weird, or at the very worst, pandering?
Won't youngsters that thrilled to Wally West's Flash from the DC animated universe be a bit bewildered? Is their confusion simply an acceptable side effect to getting a temporary boost in sales due to the curious or the speculators? Do the expected returns outweigh the possible collateral damage or reboot fatigue?
John Trumbell captured it perfectly a year ago.
I've made my point, but I suppose there will always be the long-time fans and DC defenders that disagree, no matter how salient my points may or may not be.
So because some characters and new titles don't fly they should change the ethnicity of established characters? Does DC suppose that most black comic book readers won't think changing Wally West into a black man is a little weird, or at the very worst, pandering?
Won't youngsters that thrilled to Wally West's Flash from the DC animated universe be a bit bewildered? Is their confusion simply an acceptable side effect to getting a temporary boost in sales due to the curious or the speculators? Do the expected returns outweigh the possible collateral damage or reboot fatigue?
John Trumbell captured it perfectly a year ago.
I've made my point, but I suppose there will always be the long-time fans and DC defenders that disagree, no matter how salient my points may or may not be.
'Nuff said. Make mine Marvel.
You mean the Marvel that basically did the same thing you are criticizing DC for doing to have a black Nick Fury in the 616?
And I say this not because I need to defend DC or because of a long history with them. Heck, I am barely reading anything from them these days and grew up a Marvel kid.
Rather, that as with what @nweathington put very well above, that it seems the Big 2 are in a lose-lose when it comes to these things. So I try to not immediately judge and dismiss these attempts ad politics or pandering before they even see print.
Put another way: I know a lot of people who are still really enjoying the Miles Morales version of Spider-Man. 10 years from now there might be people I meet on a forum that had that as their gateway into comics. Or maybe for someone it will be the new version of the Wally West Flash. Who knows? But in the meantime, I figure why not let them try.
So because some characters and new titles don't fly they should change the ethnicity of established characters? Does DC suppose that most black comic book readers won't think changing Wally West into a black man is a little weird, or at the very worst, pandering?
Won't youngsters that thrilled to Wally West's Flash from the DC animated universe be a bit bewildered? Is their confusion simply an acceptable side effect to getting a temporary boost in sales due to the curious or the speculators? Do the expected returns outweigh the possible collateral damage or reboot fatigue?
John Trumbell captured it perfectly a year ago.
I've made my point, but I suppose there will always be the long-time fans and DC defenders that disagree, no matter how salient my points may or may not be.
'Nuff said. Make mine Marvel.
Ummm, I said nothing in regards to whether changing Wally West's ethnicity was a good idea or not. Nor was I defending DC (I'm only currently buying one DCU title, by the way), unless pointing out the fact that DC has unsuccessfully tried to push titles featuring ethnic characters in the past counts as defending them.
But for what it’s worth, I don’t think it really matters if New52 Wally West is black or white. It’s a different character. Same name, different recipe. It may end up being as bad a decision as New Coke, but it doesn’t make the old comics in my collection any less enjoyable.
Is it pandering? Maybe. It will depend on how the story is executed as to whether they are merely changing Wally West into a black man, as you say, or creating a new black character (presumably there will be other differences between New52 Wally and the old Wally besides the color of their skin) and giving him the name of an old white character.
Will kids be bewildered? Maybe for a few minutes, but kids are smarter than we often give them credit for being. They can figure it out.
As for the possible collateral damage, the bottom line is, it isn’t going to affect DC’s ability to license their characters in a negative way, and that’s where the money is, like it or not.
My daughter understands that she has a Cinderella story book that has a different version of the character, with a different look, than the Disney film. She seems fine with it. And she's three.
I think the kids will be fine. In fact- they were born into the time when these mega properties were being platformed across various media. There are probably elementary school kids who now know what it means for a franchise to get rebooted.
I think it may be those of us that grew up with a single version of things who have more trouble being flexible.
I've been reading Brian Wood's excellent Star Wars run. Do you know what I just noticed after 13 issues? He's inserted characters of many ethnicity types throughout the book by creating characters that haven't been known to exist in the 35 year history of the franchise and I never noticed. They are good characters that I either loathe or root for. They add to the story and work seamlessly within the framework of continuity.
Ensign Nanda of the Imperial Forces
Did they change Luke Skywalker to a black man? Nope. Will Lando Calrissian be retconned into a Latino woman? Of course not. Nor was Peter Parker a black Spider-Man from the future. It was Miles Morales. And even better - the Latino/Irish Miguel O'Hara. Both great characters that did well in sales for Marvel.
My daughter understands that she has a Cinderella story book that has a different version of the character, with a different look, than the Disney film. She seems fine with it. And she's three.
Then I suppose DC can still count on the three year old market not to notice or mind. Consistent with their recent business model...
This is NOT Cinderella. And I don't mind one bit :)
I think it may be those of us that grew up with a single version of things who have more trouble being flexible.
Or it may be that those of us that grew up with a single version of things have more trouble spending disposable income on things that we have zero to little interest in, or find obnoxious and silly because they're messing with what we hold dear.
If this were a new character, I would read this, unless her name were Kara Zor-El... or Wally West
Using "continuity" as a defense for those characters created at a time when the ONLY option was to make them white is bunk. Those creators weren't maliciously making every character white but they most certainly knew that making them anything other but white would hurt sales, readership, etc. It just wasn't done. In comics, in TV, in sports, etc. Look how long it took comics to create a lasting black character. How long it took to give a black character their own title. A latino character. An asian character. How long it took ethnic characters to pop up on popular teams. Hell, Milestone Comics is only twenty years ago. Screw continuity - that has nothing to do with the creation of the original Wally West.
And while I accept that creating new characters is certainly an option, to want that to be the ONLY option is just even more ghettoization. Keeping ethnic choices out of "your" characters, isolating them "over there" is exactly the reason WHY they need to be front and center. Because they aren't "your" characters. And maybe they need to belong to others now.
Too bad DC didn't do more of this right out of the gate with the new 52 in the way Marv Wolfman dreamed of DC post-Crisis (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-D). Marvel is doing it now with their Ultimate line (thirteen years too late). But at least it's happening.
And if it makes certain people angry and uncomfortable? Great. These threads say more about the biggest complainers than anything else.
You're certainly entitled to think however you like, but you aren't entitled to your own facts. There have been many titles featuring non-white pigmented protagonists that succeeded (Spider-Man 2099, Master of Kung Fu, etc) ad even more titles featuring white characters that utterly failed.
This reminds me if the thread on Iron Fist where someone was actually complaining that Danny Rand was white and yet had never heard of Shang Chi. If anyone here thinks DC's best option to create a black Flash character is to make an existing white character into a black character then we will never see eye to eye on this issue.
Not that I'd ever want everyone to see eye to eye here.
I think we can all agree there is a stick on the ground though, you can argue all you like about which tree it came from. I say it comes from a tree which will bear little fruit but will certainly make the diversity police applaud them. Maybe DC is hoping the diversity police will sustain sales.
I'm decidedly NOT a member of the diversity police. But, when they turn Wolverine into a 6ft tall, overweight, albino - for diversity's sake, maybe we can resume this argument. Some of you might see it differently in light of that sort of change. The race element was never the point - but who knows? Maybe this is just wasted breath on speculation of a rumor found Bleeding Cool.
Using "continuity" as a defense for those characters created at a time when the ONLY option was to make them white is bunk. Those creators weren't maliciously making every character white but they most certainly knew that making them anything other but white would hurt sales, readership, etc. It just wasn't done.
Bingo.
If DC had relaunched their superhero line in ’76 instead of ’56, Barry Allen may very well have been black. Or maybe there wouldn’t have been a Hal Jordan at all, and John Stewart would be the only Green Lantern we grew up reading about.
I know, I know... those would have been new characters with different names from their Golden Age predecessors. Here’s the thing: If this New52 black Flash character was a completely new character, he would be just another Flash. Everyone would think, “Oh, Wally’s still out there somewhere, and he’s the real heir apparent to the mantle. So this guy is nothing special.” You could just throw him in the pile along with Jesse Chambers, Iris West, Bart Allen, John Fox, and all the rest.
By making the New52 Wally West black, DC is saying that a black man is next in line. It’s not as strong a statement as making a black Barry Allen Flash right out of the gate, but at least it’s a step in the right direction.
What exactly makes it the "right direction"? Towards diversity? I can't recall people clamoring for Flash to be black or any other changes - just to come back.
By the same token, are you suggesting the right direction would be for Marvel Now to change Tony Stark's ethnicity or does War Machine meet the ethnic diversity quota at Marvel? John Stewart was great! What's wrong with that model of introducing a new character of different ethnic origin? Too 70's? In that respect Marvel is doing it properly with Ms Marvel - I notice she isn't called Carol Danvers either. At least there's some accepted back story to the black Nick Fury, and I like it.
First off, Marvel Now is not a hard reboot like New52. It’s simply a way to relaunch titles with new #1s, new creative teams, and new price-points at a time when the success of the movies and the rise of digital sales are theoretically drawing in new readers. There was no change in continuity, so the Marvel Now Tony Stark is exactly the same Tony Stark that was around pre-Marvel Now. The new Ms. Marvel isn’t called Carol Danvers, because 1) it’s not a Muslim name, and 2) because Carol Danvers still has her own title.
There’s nothing wrong with introducing a new character of different ethnic origin. DC and Marvel should continue to do so. But when I say “right direction,” I mean creating a character of diversity that readers can’t ignore and shunt off into a corner. And, as I stated earlier, DC readers tend to ignore any character that isn’t one of the Super Friends. There are exceptions, of course, but as a rule DC characters of diversity, outside of Wonder Woman (who get the Super Friends exemption), rarely get to share the spotlight for any length of time. Because they don’t sell comics.
Yeah, John Stewart is great. In fact, he's my favorite Green Lantern. But Green Lantern: Mosaic was a terrible seller, even though (granted, IMO) it was by far the best superhero title DC was putting out at the time.
I am absolutely certain that if DC had relaunched the New52 with a new Flash (not Barry, not Wally) who was black, sales would be half of what they are now, and DC fans would be clamoring, “Bring back Barry!” or “Bring back Wally!”
As for the slip of a backstory for black Nick Fury, what’s the difference between accepting that, and accepting that New52 Wally West has a different backstory than old Wally West? If New52 Wally West were white, he’d still have a different backstory from old Wally West. None of the stories in the old continuity would have happened to him either. He’d still be a different character. So why not take advantage of that and make him black and add some diversity to the core of your universe?
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Exactly. I agree with you if your issue is with general tokenism. But race adds to your experiences in life and are a valid part of one's identity. If creators envision a character as having come from a particular background and it informs their voice and actions, even if its otherwise irrelevant to the story then I think it's still an acceptable decision to look for someone in casting that matches that. If the showrunners on the Flash TV show want to do more than be "diverse" and actually have a diversity of voices and viewpoints for their characters then I am for a non-white Wally West. But this is the CW and I'll always suspect they are just trying to hit quadrants.
A lot of people have referred to Kingpin and even the new Electro as being changed to black actors. I usually have no problem with them changing the villains to any nationality they like - except I was woefully unimpressed wih the Mandarin in IM3.
Could DC not have made up a Flash replacement - maybe even call him "Blue Streak"? This feels like PC shoe-horning for the sake of diversity. And while I have no problem with Gal Gadot in the role of Wonder Woman, I think it would be a bit weird if the actress looked like Monica Rambeau.
And that's my problem. I know basically what the avatar of the Flash, Superman, and Batman all look like. It isn't a problem with skin color, it's with the way they look. A terrible costume change makes me feel the same unless it's done smartly - as Chris Nolan did with Batman. If you want a new look for the character, change who it is or do what Peter David did with the Hulk and change his color as part of the narrative. A Muslim Ms marvel isn't the same thing because it's an all new character.
We already know who he is and what Wally West looks like. We've gotten to know him. Would you try to present a beardless Asian Santa Claus? Of course not. I hope this is just an unfounded rumor because I've really been hoping Wally would one day return and fix this whole New 52 mess. That's probably why I'm so bugged about this :)
There are a lot of shitty actors who have the same shade as me. There are a lot of amazing actors who don't. I presume the great actor, Idris Elba, was cast as Heimdall because of what he brought to the role & not because he's adding diversity to the cast.
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The same way that great casting adds to a character's portrayal, so does writing, direction and intention and if making Wally West black some how adds to the character and to the vision of the creators meaningfully then I'm for it. But I'm also a cynic and think that this is almost always a case of pandering and when I think that is the case (because navigating the delicate nuances of race (or for that matter any kind of minority) and culture is something the media is really great at) I'm with you. Intention matters a great deal.
As for knowing who Wally West was, I think "was" is the operative word. It is the New 52. And every once in awhile (perhaps too rarely to really feel "New") they actually make use of the opportunity to have us feel like we are meeting new characters, or that we may not know what to expect.
As for why to still have this be a character with the Flash mantle rather than entirely new? See the graveyard of attempts to launch COMPLETELY new things in the Big 2. As a readership, we have trained them not to do so. We have trained them to keep giving us more of the same. So that even a new spin on an old character feels like a noteworthy thing.
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I'll be the first to admit I go overboard (perhaps way too much, according to my wife) when it comes to getting everyone to agree on the facts. Sometimes it seems like I want everyone to agree with me. That's not the case.
For example, if we find an branch on the ground, as long as both people agree it IS a branch, about 3', and on the ground, THEN I have no problems discussing what tree each of us think it fell from. Not everyone has to agree with me on the tree, just be in agreement on the facts of what is on the ground.
Even if I don't agree with someone else's opinion, I enjoy listening to his/her thought process of how the opinion was formed. I go a little overboard when others deny the facts or don't share their thought processes.
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And I don't think it's because their audience was demanding a black Flash. They just have no new ideas and making an established character black or gay or Muslim is what passes for "edgy" these days.
You're welcome to blame readers for "training" them as you put it, but I place the blame squarely on vapid management, lack of creativity, or traditional laziness.
Also that a hero is black could even be perceived as an attempt to be "edgy" in 2014 is a reminder of why diversifying the line to catch up with the world is business that the Big 2 comics is still behind the curve on.
Comics!
Anyone remember Milestone? Some very good books by talented creators, including the aforementioned Dwayne McDuffie, with interesting characters, and they were all cancelled within four years. Anyone read Static Shock or Xombi when they were relaunched not that long ago? Can’t speak to Static, but Xombi was excellent—and more interesting than anything else DC was doing at the time IMO—and got canned after six issues.
Static is a cool enough character that he can star in a very successful cartoon, but for some reason he can’t be a perennial seller as a comic. What that says to me is that, generally speaking, the core DC fans want to read about Batman and Superman, and to a lesser extent Green Lantern and Flash, and to a still lesser extent, the rest of the Super Friends... but not much else. And the monthly sales figures back that up every month for as far back as you want to go.
And it has nothing to do with vapid management (though there is certainly enough evidence that it exists there), creativity (it’s often the case that DC’s poorer selling titles are the more creative ones in my experience—see Xombi above), or laziness (deadline rush, maybe, but certainly not laziness).
Won't youngsters that thrilled to Wally West's Flash from the DC animated universe be a bit bewildered? Is their confusion simply an acceptable side effect to getting a temporary boost in sales due to the curious or the speculators? Do the expected returns outweigh the possible collateral damage or reboot fatigue?
John Trumbell captured it perfectly a year ago.
I've made my point, but I suppose there will always be the long-time fans and DC defenders that disagree, no matter how salient my points may or may not be.
'Nuff said. Make mine Marvel.
And I say this not because I need to defend DC or because of a long history with them. Heck, I am barely reading anything from them these days and grew up a Marvel kid.
Rather, that as with what @nweathington put very well above, that it seems the Big 2 are in a lose-lose when it comes to these things. So I try to not immediately judge and dismiss these attempts ad politics or pandering before they even see print.
Put another way: I know a lot of people who are still really enjoying the Miles Morales version of Spider-Man. 10 years from now there might be people I meet on a forum that had that as their gateway into comics. Or maybe for someone it will be the new version of the Wally West Flash. Who knows? But in the meantime, I figure why not let them try.
But for what it’s worth, I don’t think it really matters if New52 Wally West is black or white. It’s a different character. Same name, different recipe. It may end up being as bad a decision as New Coke, but it doesn’t make the old comics in my collection any less enjoyable.
Is it pandering? Maybe. It will depend on how the story is executed as to whether they are merely changing Wally West into a black man, as you say, or creating a new black character (presumably there will be other differences between New52 Wally and the old Wally besides the color of their skin) and giving him the name of an old white character.
Will kids be bewildered? Maybe for a few minutes, but kids are smarter than we often give them credit for being. They can figure it out.
As for the possible collateral damage, the bottom line is, it isn’t going to affect DC’s ability to license their characters in a negative way, and that’s where the money is, like it or not.
’Nuff said. Make mine creator-owned.
I think the kids will be fine. In fact- they were born into the time when these mega properties were being platformed across various media. There are probably elementary school kids who now know what it means for a franchise to get rebooted.
I think it may be those of us that grew up with a single version of things who have more trouble being flexible.
That is all.
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Ensign Nanda of the Imperial Forces
Did they change Luke Skywalker to a black man? Nope. Will Lando Calrissian be retconned into a Latino woman? Of course not. Nor was Peter Parker a black Spider-Man from the future. It was Miles Morales. And even better - the Latino/Irish Miguel O'Hara. Both great characters that did well in sales for Marvel.
This is silly, but totally cool!
This is NOT Cinderella. And I don't mind one bit :)
If this were a new character, I would read this, unless her name were Kara Zor-El... or Wally West
You're telling me wouldn't be just a little curious if DC announced that this was Wally West? I'd have to know.
And while I accept that creating new characters is certainly an option, to want that to be the ONLY option is just even more ghettoization. Keeping ethnic choices out of "your" characters, isolating them "over there" is exactly the reason WHY they need to be front and center. Because they aren't "your" characters. And maybe they need to belong to others now.
Too bad DC didn't do more of this right out of the gate with the new 52 in the way Marv Wolfman dreamed of DC post-Crisis (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-D). Marvel is doing it now with their Ultimate line (thirteen years too late). But at least it's happening.
And if it makes certain people angry and uncomfortable? Great. These threads say more about the biggest complainers than anything else.
This reminds me if the thread on Iron Fist where someone was actually complaining that Danny Rand was white and yet had never heard of Shang Chi. If anyone here thinks DC's best option to create a black Flash character is to make an existing white character into a black character then we will never see eye to eye on this issue.
Not that I'd ever want everyone to see eye to eye here.
I think we can all agree there is a stick on the ground though, you can argue all you like about which tree it came from. I say it comes from a tree which will bear little fruit but will certainly make the diversity police applaud them. Maybe DC is hoping the diversity police will sustain sales.
I'm decidedly NOT a member of the diversity police. But, when they turn Wolverine into a 6ft tall, overweight, albino - for diversity's sake, maybe we can resume this argument. Some of you might see it differently in light of that sort of change. The race element was never the point - but who knows? Maybe this is just wasted breath on speculation of a rumor found Bleeding Cool.
If DC had relaunched their superhero line in ’76 instead of ’56, Barry Allen may very well have been black. Or maybe there wouldn’t have been a Hal Jordan at all, and John Stewart would be the only Green Lantern we grew up reading about.
I know, I know... those would have been new characters with different names from their Golden Age predecessors. Here’s the thing: If this New52 black Flash character was a completely new character, he would be just another Flash. Everyone would think, “Oh, Wally’s still out there somewhere, and he’s the real heir apparent to the mantle. So this guy is nothing special.” You could just throw him in the pile along with Jesse Chambers, Iris West, Bart Allen, John Fox, and all the rest.
By making the New52 Wally West black, DC is saying that a black man is next in line. It’s not as strong a statement as making a black Barry Allen Flash right out of the gate, but at least it’s a step in the right direction.
By the same token, are you suggesting the right direction would be for Marvel Now to change Tony Stark's ethnicity or does War Machine meet the ethnic diversity quota at Marvel? John Stewart was great! What's wrong with that model of introducing a new character of different ethnic origin? Too 70's? In that respect Marvel is doing it properly with Ms Marvel - I notice she isn't called Carol Danvers either. At least there's some accepted back story to the black Nick Fury, and I like it.
DC fail.
There’s nothing wrong with introducing a new character of different ethnic origin. DC and Marvel should continue to do so. But when I say “right direction,” I mean creating a character of diversity that readers can’t ignore and shunt off into a corner. And, as I stated earlier, DC readers tend to ignore any character that isn’t one of the Super Friends. There are exceptions, of course, but as a rule DC characters of diversity, outside of Wonder Woman (who get the Super Friends exemption), rarely get to share the spotlight for any length of time. Because they don’t sell comics.
Yeah, John Stewart is great. In fact, he's my favorite Green Lantern. But Green Lantern: Mosaic was a terrible seller, even though (granted, IMO) it was by far the best superhero title DC was putting out at the time.
I am absolutely certain that if DC had relaunched the New52 with a new Flash (not Barry, not Wally) who was black, sales would be half of what they are now, and DC fans would be clamoring, “Bring back Barry!” or “Bring back Wally!”
As for the slip of a backstory for black Nick Fury, what’s the difference between accepting that, and accepting that New52 Wally West has a different backstory than old Wally West? If New52 Wally West were white, he’d still have a different backstory from old Wally West. None of the stories in the old continuity would have happened to him either. He’d still be a different character. So why not take advantage of that and make him black and add some diversity to the core of your universe?