Complaining because what you thought could be a door to the old universe (presumably) isn't, is more on the reader then the company. The company didn't tangle any notion that it could happen with a character's introduction.
And as I said before, isn't there somewhat of a reboot whenever a new writer takes on a character? Don't get me wrong, I was guilty of it for years (insert Morrison rants.) Ultimately, I found its easier just to not buy the title for awhile. THAT would motivate the Big2 more then complaining about it on forums & social media.
I'll probably continue to express skepticism, but going to stop complaining about things yet to even be released. I'm not digging the new ASM movie series. I could complain about everything that's released about the movies I don't like. OR I could just say "its not for me" and move on.
M
I quite disagree. Complaining for whatever reason you are dissatisfied is reasonable. Don't like Morrison? Tell your friends, and be prepared to explain why. Don't like the New52? Tell other comic readers! It's what much of society is founded upon (the customer is always right). If I hear that DC is planning to change something I think they shouldn't - why shouldn't I speak up about it? It isn't as though DC has had a winning track record lately. There have been far more letdowns than pleasant surprises from the Distinguished Competition over the last few years, that I am not even willing to bet on them anymore. So when they say we're suddenly going to change the formula for an established icon, I say "why fix what isn't broken?" What's wrong with you DC? It smacks of desperation.
I agree that if you don’t like something, you have every right—and I would go so far as to say an obligation—to complain. Word of mouth is a powerful force—sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but powerful.
But I hate the phrase “the customer is always right.” People need to keep in mind that they aren’t the only customer—and that goes way beyond just comic fans. For instance, you say, “Why fix what isn’t broken?” I say that I haven’t enjoyed The Flash comic since Mark Waid left. As far as I'm concerned the title was already broken, so I stopped buying it long ago. I tried it again every so often, but it hasn’t done anything for me. It doesn’t mean I’m “right” or that you’re “right.” It only means we have different tastes.
And I was quite willing line up and give more of my dollars to DC. I have for years, but I felt as though this forum would be the place to express my further dissatisfaction about the upcoming editorial changes and also why I disagree with them. @Mr_Cosmic hit the nail on the head with this response:
I like how if you think a company, that you used to love, is doing a crappy job you're just supposed to keep your mouth shut and read your back issues.
Now that's good sarcasm right there. And I fully agree with him. It isn't that anyone here is able to debate the merits of DC's decision to change Wally's ethnicity, it's just all of the yay-sayers are essentially saying, "sit down and shut up or don't buy it". Like it's a waste of time to voice your displeasure over a complete alteration of your favorite DC character.
I don’t know if I’m being included as one of the “yay-sayers,” but I don’t have a problem with you voicing your displeasure here. Have at it! And I’m certainly not saying, “Sit down and shut up or don’t buy it,” essentially or otherwise.
Your original question was, “Why couldn't DC make some new characters that aren't white?” I’ve tried to answer that question with my own opinions based on observations and sales figures. You don’t have to agree with or even care about my opinions, but don’t put words in my mouth.
I haven’t enjoyed The Flash comic since Mark Waid left. As far as I'm concerned the title was already broken, so I stopped buying it long ago. I tried it again every so often, but it hasn’t done anything for me.
I haven’t enjoyed The Flash comic since Mark Waid left. As far as I'm concerned the title was already broken, so I stopped buying it long ago. I tried it again every so often, but it hasn’t done anything for me.
We agree more than you know...
Well, it's like I said earlier: We both like the Multiverse concept; I'm down to one DCU title; etc., etc. I get where you’re coming from. I'm just not particularly angry about the changes at DC, and I applaud their attempts at making not just another minority character, but one that “matters.” Whether their reasons behind the new Wally West are noble or disingenuous doesn’t matter to me as much as how they handle him. Maybe they’ll give me a reason to read new Flash stories again. Maybe they won't.
But the main reason I’m not angry about the direction of the New52 at large is that I still have plenty of great comics to read—so many I can barely keep up with them all. Even though I only get one monthly DCU title and three (soon to be five) Marvel titles, I still read more than 30 titles. None of them feature the Flash, but I've got a whole long box filled with Flash comics I can read any time I want—most of which I haven’t read in a long time.
I just want to read good stories. And if I can’t find good new stories featuring the characters I loved as a kid, I'm content with finding good new stories featuring new characters I can grow to love just as much.
I think it's a cheap move and it undermines the underestimates the history and fans of Wally West. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not angry, but if I think the New52 sucks, that doesn't mean I'm angry.
I have a lot of older Flash comics I can read. Heck I could even read these:
But they don't mean anything anymore unless I feel like ruminating. Which I rarely do.
DC is essentially dead to me. Randomly changing the ethnicity of one of my favorite characters or twisting the sexuality of their golden age characters or whatever the next retcon gimmick they want to try to boost sales is DC's business, but it will no longer be mine.
I think it's a cheap move and it undermines the underestimates the history and fans of Wally West. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not angry, but if I think the New52 sucks, that doesn't mean I'm angry
I'm glad you're not angry about it. There are plenty of other things in this world more deserving of our ire. But your language did come across as angry at times in my reading of it. That’s the hazard of message boards I suppose.
I still think it’s too early to say if it’s a cheap move or not. Why was Jay Garrick/Flash created? To sell comics. Why was Barry Allen/Flash created? To sell comics. Why was Wally West/Kid Flash created? To sell comics. That doesn’t mean a creator can’t come along and raise the character above its original purpose. Just look at Green Arrow before and after Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams updated him. He went from Batman-clone to Voice of the Little Guy.
But they don't mean anything anymore unless I feel like ruminating. Which I rarely do.
They mean just as much to me now as they did when they came out. Maybe it’s the historian in me, but I tend to view books within the context of the time and place in which they were produced, as well as why and how they were produced.
How long do you suppose it will be before the updated edition of the History of the DC Universe is available?
:)
To be serious, I don’t think DC (or Marvel for that matter) are especially interested in showing how old they are at this point. I believe they want their readers thinking “new” and “fresh” and other such marketable words. That’s why Earth-2 isn’t set in WWII, but a current “Great War.”
Now, if the New52 universe sticks around for 15, 20, 25 years, then maybe you’ll get something along those lines. But the Big Two are too interested in keeping their history fluid and mutable these days for me to think we’ll ever see a project like that again.
Yes, sorry. That was my attempt at humor, lecturing and telling you what to do in one fell swoop, in response to your statement.
Though, honestly, I am not sure I know of anyone who likes to be lectured, and most people I know only like to be told what to do in certain circumstances.
Yes, sorry. That was my attempt at humor, lecturing and telling you what to do in one fell swoop, in response to your statement.
Though, honestly, I am not sure I know of anyone who likes to be lectured, and most people I know only like to be told what to do in certain circumstances.
In case you haven't guessed, I hate being lectured & and told what to do.
M
Really? Why? I prefer not to be someone's disciple.
M
that was a joke @Matt. you said you hated to be told what to do. @DennisCuzinski told you what to do. he was kind of poking you. ha. :-??
True, but I've been known to downright 'immoveable object' myself at times. You say have to 'monitor my language' then I'm a pitching machine of foul language.
You tell me I have to take my shoes off to be in your house, I'm covering my shoes with surgical booties & walking throughout your house.
There - Earth 2 Connor Hawke is white. Does that even things out now? :P
I thought he was half-Asian and half-black? What?! So America just kicked off black history month and this happens? Who is in charge at DC? In a DC comics world featuring a gay Green Lantern, an Arab Dr. Fate, a Muslim Green Lantern, a black Hawkgirl and now a black Aquawoman, why is a previously mixed-race character now white? I just saw they even whitewashed Onyx Adams too... Who is editing Green Arrow these days? Is this to make-up for a black Kid Flash? They are insane.
And no this doesn't "even things out" now. LOL comment though, so I give you that. This just further confuses things. What is the point?
At least Vibe is still Latino on the Flash CW show (not that I ever liked Vibe... ;)
This is no place for being rude and insulting. If you have a specific problem with me, you could have sent a private message. You don't know me at all. You don't know the ethnicity of my family or my spouse and you are obviously not above being insulting and calling names. I'd say it's pretty obvious that you are the "troll". This is the 3rd or 4th time in a row you've been specifically insulting to me whereas I have called no one a name - you just don't like my opinion on the way the comics are being marketed or edited.
I think @bralinator is a new kid trying really hard to fit in here. It is hard sometimes to articulate yourself without the benefit of voice tone and facial expressions. I know i had a hard time tying to figure out how to participate on the boards and be a part of the community. Can we just assume for the sake of peace and harmony that nobody here is actually stupid or evil?
can we maybe try to hear what someone is trying to say rather than working on our next wittily snarky response?
This is no place for being rude and insulting. If you have a specific problem with me, you could have sent a private message. You don't know me at all. You don't know the ethnicity of my family or my spouse and you are obviously not above being insulting and calling names. I'd say it's pretty obvious that you are the "troll". This is the 3rd or 4th time in a row you've been specifically insulting to me whereas I have called no one a name - you just don't like my opinion on the way the comics are being marketed or edited.
Once someone starts name calling, they've abandoned intelligent conversation and logic in favor of an exaggerated expressions of their feelings. They've shown that they're not interested in compromise, meaningful debate or mutually beneficial conversation. They just want to retaliate based on their emotions. I'm very sorry if I offended anyone here with my personal opinions and in lieu of further appropriate dialogue to this regard I'll drop off this topic for now because retaliation in the form of further "flaming" would be even more infantile than what has already been demonstrated by peter and myself.
Suffice to say, THIS Flash fan found little to rejoice about here, my "racist trolling" notwithstanding.
Comments
But I hate the phrase “the customer is always right.” People need to keep in mind that they aren’t the only customer—and that goes way beyond just comic fans. For instance, you say, “Why fix what isn’t broken?” I say that I haven’t enjoyed The Flash comic since Mark Waid left. As far as I'm concerned the title was already broken, so I stopped buying it long ago. I tried it again every so often, but it hasn’t done anything for me. It doesn’t mean I’m “right” or that you’re “right.” It only means we have different tastes. I don’t know if I’m being included as one of the “yay-sayers,” but I don’t have a problem with you voicing your displeasure here. Have at it! And I’m certainly not saying, “Sit down and shut up or don’t buy it,” essentially or otherwise.
Your original question was, “Why couldn't DC make some new characters that aren't white?” I’ve tried to answer that question with my own opinions based on observations and sales figures. You don’t have to agree with or even care about my opinions, but don’t put words in my mouth.
But the main reason I’m not angry about the direction of the New52 at large is that I still have plenty of great comics to read—so many I can barely keep up with them all. Even though I only get one monthly DCU title and three (soon to be five) Marvel titles, I still read more than 30 titles. None of them feature the Flash, but I've got a whole long box filled with Flash comics I can read any time I want—most of which I haven’t read in a long time.
I just want to read good stories. And if I can’t find good new stories featuring the characters I loved as a kid, I'm content with finding good new stories featuring new characters I can grow to love just as much.
I have a lot of older Flash comics I can read. Heck I could even read these:
But they don't mean anything anymore unless I feel like ruminating. Which I rarely do.
DC is essentially dead to me. Randomly changing the ethnicity of one of my favorite characters or twisting the sexuality of their golden age characters or whatever the next retcon gimmick they want to try to boost sales is DC's business, but it will no longer be mine.
I still think it’s too early to say if it’s a cheap move or not. Why was Jay Garrick/Flash created? To sell comics. Why was Barry Allen/Flash created? To sell comics. Why was Wally West/Kid Flash created? To sell comics. That doesn’t mean a creator can’t come along and raise the character above its original purpose. Just look at Green Arrow before and after Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams updated him. He went from Batman-clone to Voice of the Little Guy. They mean just as much to me now as they did when they came out. Maybe it’s the historian in me, but I tend to view books within the context of the time and place in which they were produced, as well as why and how they were produced.
:)
Now, if the New52 universe sticks around for 15, 20, 25 years, then maybe you’ll get something along those lines. But the Big Two are too interested in keeping their history fluid and mutable these days for me to think we’ll ever see a project like that again.
M
M
Though, honestly, I am not sure I know of anyone who likes to be lectured, and most people I know only like to be told what to do in certain circumstances.
You say have to 'monitor my language' then I'm a pitching machine of foul language.
You tell me I have to take my shoes off to be in your house, I'm covering my shoes with surgical booties & walking throughout your house.
M
-Tommy Five-Tone (Hudson Hawk)
And no this doesn't "even things out" now. LOL comment though, so I give you that. This just further confuses things. What is the point?
At least Vibe is still Latino on the Flash CW show (not that I ever liked Vibe... ;)
You may have missed the wink emoticon there at the end @Peter
Oh wait: -winky face-
can we maybe try to hear what someone is trying to say rather than working on our next wittily snarky response?
[insert non-snarky and peace promoting response here]
COMICS!
And no more items to be signed!
M
:-\"
Suffice to say, THIS Flash fan found little to rejoice about here, my "racist trolling" notwithstanding.
:S
:-?