You're certainly entitled to think however you like, but you aren't entitled to your own facts. There have been many titles featuring non-white pigmented protagonists that succeeded (Spider-Man 2099, Master of Kung Fu, etc) ad even more titles featuring white characters that utterly failed.
This reminds me if the thread on Iron Fist where someone was actually complaining that Danny Rand was white and yet had never heard of Shang Chi. If anyone here thinks DC's best option to create a black Flash character is to make an existing white character into a black character then we will never see eye to eye on this issue.
Not that I'd ever want everyone to see eye to eye here.
I think we can all agree there is a stick on the ground though, you can argue all you like about which tree it came from. I say it comes from a tree which will bear little fruit but will certainly make the diversity police applaud them. Maybe DC is hoping the diversity police will sustain sales.
I'm decidedly NOT a member of the diversity police. But, when they turn Wolverine into a 6ft tall, overweight, albino - for diversity's sake, maybe we can resume this argument. Some of you might see it differently in light of that sort of change. The race element was never the point - but who knows? Maybe this is just wasted breath on speculation of a rumor found Bleeding Cool.
I think the business sense of recreating some of their properties to be characters of color is not about selling them to fans of diversity. That would be foolish, as I don't think such a market exists. No one buys things just because they are diverse.
Rather, it is to have more entry points for readers (maybe even young readers- remember them?) to have a way in. To have characters to see themselves in the way we did as kids. Because that is a long term plan, even if it can cause some short term push back.
First off, Marvel Now is not a hard reboot like New52.
A hard reboot where "War of the Green Lanterns", "Batman: A Death in the Family" and Batman: The Killing Joke still remain a part of the new continuity? Hmmm...
All of these same stories could have been told without rebooting the DC universe.
There’s nothing wrong with introducing a new character of different ethnic origin. DC and Marvel should continue to do so. But when I say “right direction,” I mean creating a character of diversity that readers can’t ignore and shunt off into a corner. And, as I stated earlier, DC readers tend to ignore any character that isn’t one of the Super Friends. There are exceptions, of course, but as a rule DC characters of diversity, outside of Wonder Woman (who get the Super Friends exemption), rarely get to share the spotlight for any length of time. Because they don’t sell comics.
Would you be giving as strong a defense if they were changing a black character to a white one for no reason at all? I recall M. Night Shyamalan taking a lot of deserved heat for casting white actors like Nicola Peltz and Jackson Rathbone in "The Last Airbender", where the characters they played were actually Asian in the books and animations.
I am absolutely certain that if DC had relaunched the New52 with a new Flash (not Barry, not Wally) who was black, sales would be half of what they are now, and DC fans would be clamoring, “Bring back Barry!” or “Bring back Wally!”
They did bring back Barry. He's white. He looks like the old Barry. So does Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman, etc. But I think you are saying that by keeping Wally West as the name of that character, those that love(d) the character have to shut up or they're not progressive enough or they'll just have to accept it as the new status quo because it matches the CW version, or those that don't really care will just play along because the name is the same, or those too young to know the old Wally will happily eat it up? Not sure if I follow.
As for the slip of a backstory for black Nick Fury, what’s the difference between accepting that, and accepting that New52 Wally West has a different backstory than old Wally West? If New52 Wally West were white, he’d still have a different backstory from old Wally West. None of the stories in the old continuity would have happened to him either. He’d still be a different character. So why not take advantage of that and make him black and add some diversity to the core of your universe?
Well, first off, "War of the Green Lanterns", "Batman: A Death in the Family" and Batman: The Killing Joke still remain a part of the new continuity, so I don't know what Wally West's back-story COULD HAVE been in the New 52. I was hoping he would return us to a DC Multiverse if he returned. Maybe my disappointment that this scenario isn't happening is fueling my fanboy rage here. (Rage is a strong word)
Secondly, the old white guy Nick Fury, whose been around since World War II, is still the same old white guy, but he's retired. The Samuel Jackson Nick Fury is his son (that no one knew about), who is also now named Nick Fury, and is a high ranking agent of Shield. So they both exist. The new Wally West has a brand new backstory where Iris West is and was always black because that's how the CW has casted the character in the new tv show that will last at least one or two seasons before it's cancelled. Not really the same as the Nick Fury deal.
But if all you're saying is that DC thought "hey, we have a clean slate with New 52, so let's make established an character a different ethnicity, and score some points in the diversity game" then I see your point, I just happen to think it's for no other reason that to hit the diversity quota. This goes back to my feelings of changing the appearance of Wonder Woman or making Wolverine a tall, overweight, albino. What we have established is fine, it ain't broke. If you want more black super-heroes, create some. Stop retconning everything to fit the New 52 PC Universe.
I think the business sense of recreating some of their properties to be characters of color is not about selling them to fans of diversity. That would be foolish, as I don't think such a market exists. No one buys things just because they are diverse.
Rather, it is to have more entry points for readers (maybe even young readers- remember them?) to have a way in. To have characters to see themselves in the way we did as kids. Because that is a long term plan, even if it can cause some short term push back.
Most young readers will remember the Wally West from Flashpoint. It was 2011. They will notice this kind of difference. Give them some credit. And I'm not arguing that the New 52 hasn't been good for DC from a business perspective, as it led to an increased market share for DC. The best thing this could have meant was a return of the DC Multiverse, but it doesn't. It's merely an adjustment the status quo in order to align things to match the CW's casting call for the tv show. DC has no concern for the old fans. They'll just have to get over it. So here's your new entry point.
For me, the only time I ever discriminate based on skin color, especially black skin, is when the subject is bananas, apples, or grapes. I don't care what color a character is. I just don't like it when they "race-lift" well known characters without some kind of reasonable back-story or retcon, and even then it feels icky. Just write some good new characters of whatever ethnicity you wish, apply exceptional art, market it well, and surround it with other established characters and let the fans accept it or not. Don't just pretend it was never any other way and expect people to swallow it. Sheesh.
A hard reboot where "War of the Green Lanterns", "Batman: A Death in the Family" and Batman: The Killing Joke still remain a part of the new continuity? Hmmm...
All of these same stories could have been told without rebooting the DC universe.
I completely agree. And that’s part of where DC screwed up. They were trying too hard to appease all the old fans rather than have a completely clean cut from the past. But for characters like Flash and Aquaman on down the chain, it is a hard reboot.
Would you be giving as strong a defense if they were changing a black character to a white one for no reason at all? I recall M. Night Shyamalan taking a lot of deserved heat for casting white actors like Nicola Peltz and Jackson Rathbone in "The Last Airbender", where the characters they played were actually Asian in the books and animations.
No, I would argue against that, because that would be doing the opposite of adding diversity. I'm not saying that DC should change a character’s ethnicity for no reason. I'm saying it's okay for them to change a character’s ethnicity if it will give the core of their universe a more realistic sense of diversity. Big difference.
They did bring back Barry. He's white. He looks like the old Barry. So does Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman, etc. But I think you are saying that by keeping Wally West as the name of that character, those that love(d) the character have to shut up or they're not progressive enough or they'll just have to accept it as the new status quo because it matches the CW version, or those that don't really care will just play along because the name is the same, or those too young to know the old Wally will happily eat it up? Not sure if I follow.
No, I'm saying that in order for there to be true diversity in the DC universe—any comic book universe—there have to be characters of diversity that are part of the core of the universe. That is to say, there has to be diversity among the Super Friends—the “real” Super Friends. Throwing in Apache Chief and Samurai doesn’t cut it, because few people will ever really care about them when they still have Superman, Batman, et al. The Apache Chiefs of the world will always be little more than background filler.
Well, first off, "War of the Green Lanterns", "Batman: A Death in the Family" and Batman: The Killing Joke still remain a part of the new continuity, so I don't know what Wally West's back-story COULD HAVE been in the New 52. I was hoping he would return us to a DC Multiverse if he returned. Maybe my disappointment that this scenario isn't happening is fueling my fanboy rage here. (Rage is a strong word)
Secondly, the old white guy Nick Fury, whose been around since World War II, is still the same old white guy, but he's retired. The Samuel Jackson Nick Fury is his son (that no one knew about), who is also now named Nick Fury, and is a high ranking agent of Shield. So they both exist. The new Wally West has a brand new backstory where Iris West is and was always black because that's how the CW has casted the character in the new tv show that will last at least one or two seasons before it's cancelled. Not really the same as the Nick Fury deal.
Now we get to the heart of it. You don’t want a New52 Wally West, whether he’s white or he’s black. You want the old Wally West and the rest of the old DCU. I get that. I love the concept of a Multiverse too—I always have. I have no problem with playing around with continuity when it’s for the benefit of the story. I love the Elseworlds concept, even though all too often it was poorly handled. I can’t wait for Morrison’s Multiversity. And it’s exactly for that reason that I have no problem with a black Wally West.
My point about the black Fury—wasn’t The Black Fury a Golden Age character? If not, he should have been—was that if you can handle a retcon of that magnitude, then why not a complete reboot? But I think your previous paragraph answers that question well enough.
Just write some good new characters, apply exceptional art, market it well, and surround it with other established characters and let the fans accept it or not.
I really do wish that would work, but history has shown it does not. History has also shown that sometimes in order for positive change to be fully accepted by the people, that change first has to be forced upon the people. I'm not trying to compare this issue with Desegregation by any means, but the similarities are there.
Calling Marvel's decision to create the 616 black Nick Fury in the way that they did the 'right way to do it' is incredibly silly. It was hamfisted, incredibly calculated, and the most egregious example of character replacement for nothing but business ever. Right down to the eyepatch. And proves how little they cared about the Ultimate line. 616 Nick Fury was to wiggle themselves out of a corner for a new reader from the movies to not be confused. Tell me how in-story that decision was again? Yikes.
I think the deeper problem is Flashpoint and the rollout of the new universe. There are no rules as to what changed and what stayed the same. It's just the ultimate "it's magic" explanation to whatever changes DC wants to make. "We don't have to explain it...it's because of Flashpoint."
I don't like what Marvel did with the new Fury but at least he didn't just walk into panel looking different with no explanation other than pointing to an event that took place two years earlier.
The conversation has gotten a little ridiculous. I agree there should be diversity & it shouldn't come at the expense of established characters for diversity's sake. It kind of feels like a "quota" mindset.
Here's the thing, though: 1.) the name & powers may be the same, but it's essentially a new character. Basically every New52 character is a new character. Why not make alterations? 2.) if people are going to stand on the 'just create a new character' platform to inject diversity into the Big2, then I'd hope those people are championing those titles, i.e. reading, promoting, & trying to make sure those diverse character titles continue...not make it someone else's cross to bear 3.) if every change made by the Big2 since the relaunch & rebranding is going to result in 'hoping things will go to the way they were,' its a waste of everyone's time. The train is going in ONE direction; forward. The old DCU is done. Accept it. Be open to the changes or just stop reading the titles. Stop looking for that door that's going to bring back what YOU want. 4.) DC & Marvel aren't in the business of making comics anymore. Movies, TV series, & merchandising is what the focuses are. For every 50 readers who drop titles because 'it's not MY universe' there are 100 people going to the movies, watching the shows, & buying the merchandise. My wife loves comic book movies, doesn't read the source material, & doesn't care if it differs from the source material. 5.) if the actor/actress who can best portray a comic character doesn't look exactly like the source material, who cares? I want better acting over exact replicates. 6.) just because something works or looks 1 way in the comic books, doesn't mean it will translate well in live-action. Slight origin tweaks, dropping fabric/spandex suits for more tactical/practical look, etc doesn't negate either the movie OR the source material.
Ultimately, we bind ourselves to the shackles that WE define.
The conversation has gotten a little ridiculous. I agree there should be diversity & it shouldn't come at the expense of established characters for diversity's sake. It kind of feels like a "quota" mindset.
Here's the thing, though: 1.) the name & powers may be the same, but it's essentially a new character. Basically every New52 character is a new character. Why not make alterations? 2.) if people are going to stand on the 'just create a new character' platform to inject diversity into the Big2, then I'd hope those people are championing those titles, i.e. reading, promoting, & trying to make sure those diverse character titles continue...not make it someone else's cross to bear 3.) if every change made by the Big2 since the relaunch & rebranding is going to result in 'hoping things will go to the way they were,' its a waste of everyone's time. The train is going in ONE direction; forward. The old DCU is done. Accept it. Be open to the changes or just stop reading the titles. Stop looking for that door that's going to bring back what YOU want. 4.) DC & Marvel aren't in the business of making comics anymore. Movies, TV series, & merchandising is what the focuses are. For every 50 readers who drop titles because 'it's not MY universe' there are 100 people going to the movies, watching the shows, & buying the merchandise. My wife loves comic book movies, doesn't read the source material, & doesn't care if it differs from the source material. 5.) if the actor/actress who can best portray a comic character doesn't look exactly like the source material, who cares? I want better acting over exact replicates. 6.) just because something works or looks 1 way in the comic books, doesn't mean it will translate well in live-action. Slight origin tweaks, dropping fabric/spandex suits for more tactical/practical look, etc doesn't negate either the movie OR the source material.
Ultimately, we bind ourselves to the shackles that WE define.
M
I agree with all six of your points. Though, with point #4 I would fine tune that to say that the editors and creators at Marvel and DC are in the business of making comics, but the people above them who have ultimate say are not.
The conversation has gotten a little ridiculous. I agree there should be diversity & it shouldn't come at the expense of established characters for diversity's sake. It kind of feels like a "quota" mindset.
Here's the thing, though: 1.) the name & powers may be the same, but it's essentially a new character. Basically every New52 character is a new character. Why not make alterations? 2.) if people are going to stand on the 'just create a new character' platform to inject diversity into the Big2, then I'd hope those people are championing those titles, i.e. reading, promoting, & trying to make sure those diverse character titles continue...not make it someone else's cross to bear 3.) if every change made by the Big2 since the relaunch & rebranding is going to result in 'hoping things will go to the way they were,' its a waste of everyone's time. The train is going in ONE direction; forward. The old DCU is done. Accept it. Be open to the changes or just stop reading the titles. Stop looking for that door that's going to bring back what YOU want. 4.) DC & Marvel aren't in the business of making comics anymore. Movies, TV series, & merchandising is what the focuses are. For every 50 readers who drop titles because 'it's not MY universe' there are 100 people going to the movies, watching the shows, & buying the merchandise. My wife loves comic book movies, doesn't read the source material, & doesn't care if it differs from the source material. 5.) if the actor/actress who can best portray a comic character doesn't look exactly like the source material, who cares? I want better acting over exact replicates. 6.) just because something works or looks 1 way in the comic books, doesn't mean it will translate well in live-action. Slight origin tweaks, dropping fabric/spandex suits for more tactical/practical look, etc doesn't negate either the movie OR the source material.
Ultimately, we bind ourselves to the shackles that WE define.
M
I agree with all six of your points. Though, with point #4 I would fine tune that to say that the editors and creators at Marvel and DC are in the business of making comics, but the people above them who have ultimate say are not.
I don't know about that...I've seen some of the art work & hear about the writing of some of the stories. ;)
Regarding @matt's first point. I forget occasionally that these are essentially new characters. Although that is treated in a little bit of a 'have your cake and eat it too' sort of way. Because some of these characters are new Red Robin for example but Batman (sort of) and Green Lanterns have continued their previous continuity. So if this iteration of Wally is a young black kid, shrugs, okay. Why not?
The conversation has gotten a little ridiculous. I agree there should be diversity & it shouldn't come at the expense of established characters for diversity's sake. It kind of feels like a "quota" mindset.
Here's the thing, though: 1.) the name & powers may be the same, but it's essentially a new character. Basically every New52 character is a new character. Why not make alterations? 2.) if people are going to stand on the 'just create a new character' platform to inject diversity into the Big2, then I'd hope those people are championing those titles, i.e. reading, promoting, & trying to make sure those diverse character titles continue...not make it someone else's cross to bear 3.) if every change made by the Big2 since the relaunch & rebranding is going to result in 'hoping things will go to the way they were,' its a waste of everyone's time. The train is going in ONE direction; forward. The old DCU is done. Accept it. Be open to the changes or just stop reading the titles. Stop looking for that door that's going to bring back what YOU want. 4.) DC & Marvel aren't in the business of making comics anymore. Movies, TV series, & merchandising is what the focuses are. For every 50 readers who drop titles because 'it's not MY universe' there are 100 people going to the movies, watching the shows, & buying the merchandise. My wife loves comic book movies, doesn't read the source material, & doesn't care if it differs from the source material. 5.) if the actor/actress who can best portray a comic character doesn't look exactly like the source material, who cares? I want better acting over exact replicates. 6.) just because something works or looks 1 way in the comic books, doesn't mean it will translate well in live-action. Slight origin tweaks, dropping fabric/spandex suits for more tactical/practical look, etc doesn't negate either the movie OR the source material.
Ultimately, we bind ourselves to the shackles that WE define.
M
I agree with all six of your points. Though, with point #4 I would fine tune that to say that the editors and creators at Marvel and DC are in the business of making comics, but the people above them who have ultimate say are not.
I don't know about that...I've seen some of the art work & hear about the writing of some of the stories. ;)
M
Hey, I didn’t say all of them were particularly good at their job. :D
Fans clamoring for the "return" of old DCU characters seem weird to me. And DC just puts these characters back with tweaked origins or what-not, so what's the point, then, of the DCnU? I tried getting into this universe but I gave up almost as quick as I did the previous time with the old universe.
Fans clamoring for the "return" of old DCU characters seem weird to me.
Fans that are wanting the old characters to return are merely responding to this weird new universe that they don't care for. They want to get off this messed up ride. If this was a jumping-on point for new fans, it has turned into a jumping-off point for many more long time fans.
Who is in charge of DC right now? Jim Lee? Bob Harras? 5 years ago in the lead-up to Infinite Crisis, DC was on top of the world. It was ALL DC. Now with the New 52, the motto seems to be "if it ain't broke, break it".
some of these characters are new Red Robin for example but Batman (sort of) and Green Lanterns have continued their previous continuity. So if this iteration of Wally is a young black kid, shrugs, okay.
So oh well. Change it. Whatever. Hey, ya know what? There's an all-new iteration of Lobo. Kind of an emo Lobo that may be kinda cool. Right? [shrugs]
Ooh, and have you checked out "The Movement"? It's this super diverse and socially conscious "super-heroic extension of the Occupy movement" book. Sort of shocked it's still being published though. That, along with the "Green Team". Amazed at how Teen Titans gets cancelled (and the Young Justice animated series), but these two titles are still being published. Maybe they think the youth (remember them?) prefer socially conscious books over tried and true formulas.
I think the deeper problem is Flashpoint and the rollout of the new universe. There are no rules as to what changed and what stayed the same. It's just the ultimate "it's magic" explanation to whatever changes DC wants to make. "We don't have to explain it...it's because of Flashpoint."
I am with you 100% here. Green Lantern wasn't touched at all. Blackest Night even references events where heroes died that either never existed or were never even dead?!? First, all of the previous history didn't happen. Then it all happened, but all in the past 5 years - which means Batman broke his back, and lost a couple of Robins in 5 years time?!? Did Superman die? Did the new Twilight Lobo really beat up Batman and Superman? Even with all of the awful changes... Firestorm is right back to the same as he was before the New52?! This is really just another reason for me to be sick of DC - they've lost their touch.
Hey DC - why make a beautiful universe full of cool and interesting characters with so much depth and history, and then blow it to pieces and replace it with something 'younger, trendier, and completely homogeneous'.
Anyone got a Who's Who or History of the DC Universe I can borrow? And can I get that in a 3D cover?
Another casualty of the updated timeline for the New 52 is the sense of superheroics being a legacy career. Barry Allen was no longer inspired by Jay Garrick, and Wally West no longer took up the identity after Barry. The notion that a superheroic identity is somehow bigger, or more long-lasting, than any one individual is another part of DC's DNA as a publisher, subtext from the Silver Age made into text during the 1980s and '90s when the characters started acknowledging their predecessors right there on the page.
More than anything else, this is why Wally West has been so missed in the New 52 -- it's not the character as such, but what he represents: Wally was the sidekick who managed to grow up and into the mantle handed down to him, and win the respect of his fellow superheroes and the readers in the process. It was something that made the character almost unique, and very appealing to readers, because we got to see him grow up. With just two years under its belt, the New 52 has a ways to go before it can attempt such a thing -- if that's even something it's interested in.
Didn't DC essentially level out from where they were before New52? The books that were selling well still do. The titles that were selling okay still are.
It might seem like a wash, but actually DC is at an advantage. They have minimal continuity to anchor them. They can use the same cast of characters people know & tweak them as needed. Sure not everyone HAS to approve, but I think its more about getting new & casual readers then the veterans.
I was only reading Spidey titles at the time, but how did the post-Crisis relaunch get received?
If you think about it, anytime a new writer takes on a character, its essentially a relaunch. Sure it doesn't always produce a new #1, but they don't always use the old continuity.
For example: Morrison had Talia forcibly have sex with Batman to produce the son. Continuity-wise, it was consensual.
Johns' had Kent shocked that Batman created BrotherEye to keep tabs on everyone. Waid already had established Batman has been creating contingencies for years. The 'community' found out in Tower of Babel storyline. No mention of it in the Infinite Crisis arc.
Ultimately, we bind ourselves to the shackles that WE define.
M
Exactly.
Also, it's been over two years since the reboot. If fans can't break the habit, can't think for themselves to "get off this messed up ride", that's on them at this point. Go cry on your back issues prior to Flashpoint. Or wait... Zero Hour. I mean the Crisis. No, I meant Showcase #4.
No, I don't think it's a problem with naysayers thinking for themselves. Instead it's the mindless drones that continue to be led around by the nose by a company that no longer cares what they think or gives a wit about the history they built. And so what that some like it or hate it? Isn't this a place for ranting? What good is the internet if we can't complain on a comic geek forum?
If fans can't break the habit, can't think for themselves to "get off this messed up ride", that's on them at this point. Go cry on your back issues prior to Flashpoint. Or wait... Zero Hour. I mean the Crisis. No, I meant Showcase #4.
For me the habit has been broken. I don't buy any DC books or tpbs. Only a couple of Vertigo titles and I haven't read a single panel of Forever Evil...
Shorter version: New52 sucks. It started out sucking and now it sucks even worse.
P.S. And CW's Arrow sucks too.
That will be the defined shackle that I'm "binded" to.
No, I don't think it's a problem with naysayers thinking for themselves. Instead it's the mindless drones that continue to be led around by the nose by a company that no longer cares what they think or gives a wit about the history they built. And so what that some like it or hate it? Isn't this a place for ranting? What good is the internet if we can't complain on a comic geek forum?
If fans can't break the habit, can't think for themselves to "get off this messed up ride", that's on them at this point. Go cry on your back issues prior to Flashpoint. Or wait... Zero Hour. I mean the Crisis. No, I meant Showcase #4.
For me the habit has been broken. I don't buy any DC books or tpbs. Only a couple of Vertigo titles and I haven't read a single panel of Forever Evil...
Shorter version: New52 sucks. It started out sucking and now it sucks even worse.
P.S. And CW's Arrow sucks too.
That will be the defined shackle that I'm "binded" to.
I don't know about these options: A.) New52 Naysayer, or B.) Mindless Drone
Can't you be someone who enjoys it for the entertainment offered, even if you did really like OldDCU? Aren't you basically saying "either people agree with you or they're idiots for liking something YOU don't like'?
I gotta be honest, I'm not reading any of the Big2. The current Batman isn't for me anymore then the kooky 60s Batman. I don't think anyone who likes those versions of Batman are idiots/mindless drones.
Baskin & Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream because not everyone likes or always want plain vanilla. People like what they like.
Sorry you're shackled. It's very freeing when you lack the restrictive jewelry.
If your 'complaining' amounts to over 10 posts saying the same things over and over again, you are absolutely shackled. You're not interested in discussion. Just in making sure you're heard. Big difference.
The thread is titled" Flash Fans Rejoice!" I must have presumed it was talking to me. I always considered myself a Flash fan. The abundance of posts was in response to a lack of validation in regards to my point of view. I respect everyone's opinion here, even those that disagree with me. so I hope no one was upset by my comments.
Fans clamoring for the "return" of old DCU characters seem weird to me.
Fans that are wanting the old characters to return are merely responding to this weird new universe that they don't care for. They want to get off this messed up ride. If this was a jumping-on point for new fans, it has turned into a jumping-off point for many more long time fans.
Who is in charge of DC right now? Jim Lee? Bob Harras? 5 years ago in the lead-up to Infinite Crisis, DC was on top of the world. It was ALL DC. Now with the New 52, the motto seems to be "if it ain't broke, break it".
some of these characters are new Red Robin for example but Batman (sort of) and Green Lanterns have continued their previous continuity. So if this iteration of Wally is a young black kid, shrugs, okay.
So oh well. Change it. Whatever. Hey, ya know what? There's an all-new iteration of Lobo. Kind of an emo Lobo that may be kinda cool. Right? [shrugs]
Ooh, and have you checked out "The Movement"? It's this super diverse and socially conscious "super-heroic extension of the Occupy movement" book. Sort of shocked it's still being published though. That, along with the "Green Team". Amazed at how Teen Titans gets cancelled (and the Young Justice animated series), but these two titles are still being published. Maybe they think the youth (remember them?) prefer socially conscious books over tried and true formulas.
Yeah, my opinion being respected, that's what I felt when I read this.
So because some characters and new titles don't fly they should change the ethnicity of established characters? Does DC suppose that most black comic book readers won't think changing Wally West into a black man is a little weird, or at the very worst, pandering?
White, Legacy Pre-New 52 Wally West is dead.
This is (These are, considering comics & TV) a completely new character with a reused name, and a similar relationship to the completely different Barry Allen (s).
His being black is no bigger a deal than Dinah/Laurel Lance having light brown hair, rather than dark black hair.
If longtime DC fans wanted to keep their Post-Crisis universe the should have bought more books three or four years ago. And talked up what they loved about those titles then, to get more people to support them.
DC would have been more motivated to care what their readers thought if they had more evidence that the fans cared enough to keep buying that continuity. As it was, the numbers for most of the line pre-New52 would seem to say that the fans didn't think much of what was being published.
If longtime DC fans wanted to keep their Post-Crisis universe the should have bought more books three or four years ago. And talked up what they loved about those titles then, to get more people to support them.
DC would have been more motivated to care what their readers thought if they had more evidence that the fans cared enough to keep buying that continuity. As it was, the numbers for most of the line pre-New52 would seem to say that the fans didn't think much of what was being published.
AND should be buying those new, diverse characters to keep those titles lasting. Who knows, maybe if a non-white GL, Batman, etc character would get the love & support the Caucasian counterparts do, then New52 Wally would be like OldDC Wally.
Creating & giving a solo title to a Hindu GL is a lot more of a financial risk then tweaking the color palletof Wally West.
I don't have a problem with a black Flash, but a black Wally West just seems a bit jarring, a modest but unnecessary hurdle for any pre-New 52 fan to get over in order to enjoy the actual stories aside from the hype. And I'm not even a Wally West fan, but it just seems weird to me for them to do this. As with so many moves like this that DC (Marvel too, but especially DC) has attempted in recent years, really the only off-putting thing about them is the context and ersatz marketing. Like they're going out of their way to use race (and sometimes sexual orientation) as a gimmick. I get WHY they would do that -- to create a buzz -- but it just seems kinda cheap, and I think it creates a sense in the back of fans' minds that "DC really doesn't care about content, only surface-level stuff."
To keep things in perspective, though, I don't think this is any big outrage. I've heard people point out that finally this would be a way to differentiate Wally and Barry easily on the page, which is a great point. As a casual Flash fan, I always had a hard time telling them apart.
The abundance of posts was in response to a lack of validation in regards to my point of view...
Who cares about validation from others? If YOU believe in your pov, who cares what others think? You shouldn't need to have others accept your pov. If people didn't think it was worthy of discussion they wouldn't engage in the first place. That people are willing to have a discussion is validation enough.
Who cares about validation from others? If YOU believe in your pov, who cares what others think? You shouldn't need to have others accept your pov. If people didn't think it was worthy of discussion they wouldn't engage in the first place. That people are willing to have a discussion is validation enough.
And that's one to grow on!:)
Thanks Peter :)
Now that you mention it, I think "validation" was a strong term, but to wit, I was merely surprised that the general consensus here in the forums seemed to be, "get over it you old fan-boy, this is the 21st century and DC knows better than you how to handle the Flash. Comic books NEED more diversity and all that..." etc
So many of the responses at BleedingCool indicated that I was far from the only person who was more than a bit put off by DC's decision. I didn't necessarily agree with all of those that are moaning about DC's decision to change Wally West's ethnicity, but I also realized I wasn't the ONLY Flash fan that wasn't exactly rejoicing at the news either. It was interesting how the ratio was quite the opposite here.
Much less bitching & moaning and much more "meh, it is what it is" over here.
Yeah, my opinion being respected, that's what I felt when I read this.
Nope, you're right. I wasn't being respectful there. Sorry about that. For what it's worth, I generally do respect your opinions and have clicked "Agree", "Like" and "Awesome" more than once to a comment you've made on these forums.
Comments
Rather, it is to have more entry points for readers (maybe even young readers- remember them?) to have a way in. To have characters to see themselves in the way we did as kids. Because that is a long term plan, even if it can cause some short term push back.
All of these same stories could have been told without rebooting the DC universe. Would you be giving as strong a defense if they were changing a black character to a white one for no reason at all? I recall M. Night Shyamalan taking a lot of deserved heat for casting white actors like Nicola Peltz and Jackson Rathbone in "The Last Airbender", where the characters they played were actually Asian in the books and animations. They did bring back Barry. He's white. He looks like the old Barry. So does Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman, etc. But I think you are saying that by keeping Wally West as the name of that character, those that love(d) the character have to shut up or they're not progressive enough or they'll just have to accept it as the new status quo because it matches the CW version, or those that don't really care will just play along because the name is the same, or those too young to know the old Wally will happily eat it up? Not sure if I follow. Well, first off, "War of the Green Lanterns", "Batman: A Death in the Family" and Batman: The Killing Joke still remain a part of the new continuity, so I don't know what Wally West's back-story COULD HAVE been in the New 52. I was hoping he would return us to a DC Multiverse if he returned. Maybe my disappointment that this scenario isn't happening is fueling my fanboy rage here. (Rage is a strong word)
Secondly, the old white guy Nick Fury, whose been around since World War II, is still the same old white guy, but he's retired. The Samuel Jackson Nick Fury is his son (that no one knew about), who is also now named Nick Fury, and is a high ranking agent of Shield. So they both exist. The new Wally West has a brand new backstory where Iris West is and was always black because that's how the CW has casted the character in the new tv show that will last at least one or two seasons before it's cancelled. Not really the same as the Nick Fury deal.
But if all you're saying is that DC thought "hey, we have a clean slate with New 52, so let's make established an character a different ethnicity, and score some points in the diversity game" then I see your point, I just happen to think it's for no other reason that to hit the diversity quota. This goes back to my feelings of changing the appearance of Wonder Woman or making Wolverine a tall, overweight, albino. What we have established is fine, it ain't broke. If you want more black super-heroes, create some. Stop retconning everything to fit the New 52 PC Universe. Most young readers will remember the Wally West from Flashpoint. It was 2011. They will notice this kind of difference. Give them some credit. And I'm not arguing that the New 52 hasn't been good for DC from a business perspective, as it led to an increased market share for DC. The best thing this could have meant was a return of the DC Multiverse, but it doesn't. It's merely an adjustment the status quo in order to align things to match the CW's casting call for the tv show. DC has no concern for the old fans. They'll just have to get over it. So here's your new entry point.
For me, the only time I ever discriminate based on skin color, especially black skin, is when the subject is bananas, apples, or grapes. I don't care what color a character is. I just don't like it when they "race-lift" well known characters without some kind of reasonable back-story or retcon, and even then it feels icky. Just write some good new characters of whatever ethnicity you wish, apply exceptional art, market it well, and surround it with other established characters and let the fans accept it or not. Don't just pretend it was never any other way and expect people to swallow it. Sheesh.
My point about the black Fury—wasn’t The Black Fury a Golden Age character? If not, he should have been—was that if you can handle a retcon of that magnitude, then why not a complete reboot? But I think your previous paragraph answers that question well enough. I really do wish that would work, but history has shown it does not. History has also shown that sometimes in order for positive change to be fully accepted by the people, that change first has to be forced upon the people. I'm not trying to compare this issue with Desegregation by any means, but the similarities are there.
I don't like what Marvel did with the new Fury but at least he didn't just walk into panel looking different with no explanation other than pointing to an event that took place two years earlier.
Here's the thing, though:
1.) the name & powers may be the same, but it's essentially a new character. Basically every New52 character is a new character. Why not make alterations?
2.) if people are going to stand on the 'just create a new character' platform to inject diversity into the Big2, then I'd hope those people are championing those titles, i.e. reading, promoting, & trying to make sure those diverse character titles continue...not make it someone else's cross to bear
3.) if every change made by the Big2 since the relaunch & rebranding is going to result in 'hoping things will go to the way they were,' its a waste of everyone's time. The train is going in ONE direction; forward. The old DCU is done. Accept it. Be open to the changes or just stop reading the titles. Stop looking for that door that's going to bring back what YOU want.
4.) DC & Marvel aren't in the business of making comics anymore. Movies, TV series, & merchandising is what the focuses are. For every 50 readers who drop titles because 'it's not MY universe' there are 100 people going to the movies, watching the shows, & buying the merchandise. My wife loves comic book movies, doesn't read the source material, & doesn't care if it differs from the source material.
5.) if the actor/actress who can best portray a comic character doesn't look exactly like the source material, who cares? I want better acting over exact replicates.
6.) just because something works or looks 1 way in the comic books, doesn't mean it will translate well in live-action. Slight origin tweaks, dropping fabric/spandex suits for more tactical/practical look, etc doesn't negate either the movie OR the source material.
Ultimately, we bind ourselves to the shackles that WE define.
M
M
Who is in charge of DC right now? Jim Lee? Bob Harras? 5 years ago in the lead-up to Infinite Crisis, DC was on top of the world. It was ALL DC. Now with the New 52, the motto seems to be "if it ain't broke, break it". So oh well. Change it. Whatever. Hey, ya know what? There's an all-new iteration of Lobo. Kind of an emo Lobo that may be kinda cool. Right? [shrugs]
Ooh, and have you checked out "The Movement"? It's this super diverse and socially conscious "super-heroic extension of the Occupy movement" book. Sort of shocked it's still being published though. That, along with the "Green Team". Amazed at how Teen Titans gets cancelled (and the Young Justice animated series), but these two titles are still being published. Maybe they think the youth (remember them?) prefer socially conscious books over tried and true formulas. I am with you 100% here. Green Lantern wasn't touched at all. Blackest Night even references events where heroes died that either never existed or were never even dead?!? First, all of the previous history didn't happen. Then it all happened, but all in the past 5 years - which means Batman broke his back, and lost a couple of Robins in 5 years time?!? Did Superman die? Did the new Twilight Lobo really beat up Batman and Superman? Even with all of the awful changes... Firestorm is right back to the same as he was before the New52?! This is really just another reason for me to be sick of DC - they've lost their touch.
Hey DC - why make a beautiful universe full of cool and interesting characters with so much depth and history, and then blow it to pieces and replace it with something 'younger, trendier, and completely homogeneous'.
Anyone got a Who's Who or History of the DC Universe I can borrow? And can I get that in a 3D cover?
It might seem like a wash, but actually DC is at an advantage. They have minimal continuity to anchor them. They can use the same cast of characters people know & tweak them as needed. Sure not everyone HAS to approve, but I think its more about getting new & casual readers then the veterans.
I was only reading Spidey titles at the time, but how did the post-Crisis relaunch get received?
If you think about it, anytime a new writer takes on a character, its essentially a relaunch. Sure it doesn't always produce a new #1, but they don't always use the old continuity.
For example: Morrison had Talia forcibly have sex with Batman to produce the son. Continuity-wise, it was consensual.
Johns' had Kent shocked that Batman created BrotherEye to keep tabs on everyone. Waid already had established Batman has been creating contingencies for years. The 'community' found out in Tower of Babel storyline. No mention of it in the Infinite Crisis arc.
M
Also, it's been over two years since the reboot. If fans can't break the habit, can't think for themselves to "get off this messed up ride", that's on them at this point. Go cry on your back issues prior to Flashpoint. Or wait... Zero Hour. I mean the Crisis. No, I meant Showcase #4.
No, I don't think it's a problem with naysayers thinking for themselves. Instead it's the mindless drones that continue to be led around by the nose by a company that no longer cares what they think or gives a wit about the history they built. And so what that some like it or hate it? Isn't this a place for ranting? What good is the internet if we can't complain on a comic geek forum?
;) For me the habit has been broken. I don't buy any DC books or tpbs. Only a couple of Vertigo titles and I haven't read a single panel of Forever Evil...
Shorter version: New52 sucks. It started out sucking and now it sucks even worse.
P.S. And CW's Arrow sucks too.
That will be the defined shackle that I'm "binded" to.
A.) New52 Naysayer, or
B.) Mindless Drone
Can't you be someone who enjoys it for the entertainment offered, even if you did really like OldDCU? Aren't you basically saying "either people agree with you or they're idiots for liking something YOU don't like'?
I gotta be honest, I'm not reading any of the Big2. The current Batman isn't for me anymore then the kooky 60s Batman. I don't think anyone who likes those versions of Batman are idiots/mindless drones.
Baskin & Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream because not everyone likes or always want plain vanilla. People like what they like.
Sorry you're shackled. It's very freeing when you lack the restrictive jewelry.
M
Oh and did I mention that I don't like the New52?
This is (These are, considering comics & TV) a completely new character with a reused name, and a similar relationship to the completely different Barry Allen (s).
His being black is no bigger a deal than Dinah/Laurel Lance having light brown hair, rather than dark black hair.
DC would have been more motivated to care what their readers thought if they had more evidence that the fans cared enough to keep buying that continuity. As it was, the numbers for most of the line pre-New52 would seem to say that the fans didn't think much of what was being published.
Creating & giving a solo title to a Hindu GL is a lot more of a financial risk then tweaking the color palletof Wally West.
M
To keep things in perspective, though, I don't think this is any big outrage. I've heard people point out that finally this would be a way to differentiate Wally and Barry easily on the page, which is a great point. As a casual Flash fan, I always had a hard time telling them apart.
And that's one to grow on! :)
Now that you mention it, I think "validation" was a strong term, but to wit, I was merely surprised that the general consensus here in the forums seemed to be, "get over it you old fan-boy, this is the 21st century and DC knows better than you how to handle the Flash. Comic books NEED more diversity and all that..." etc
However, I felt much better when I peeked at this:
BleedingCool.com forums explode in response to the New52 Wally West being black
So many of the responses at BleedingCool indicated that I was far from the only person who was more than a bit put off by DC's decision. I didn't necessarily agree with all of those that are moaning about DC's decision to change Wally West's ethnicity, but I also realized I wasn't the ONLY Flash fan that wasn't exactly rejoicing at the news either. It was interesting how the ratio was quite the opposite here.
Much less bitching & moaning and much more "meh, it is what it is" over here. Nope, you're right. I wasn't being respectful there. Sorry about that. For what it's worth, I generally do respect your opinions and have clicked "Agree", "Like" and "Awesome" more than once to a comment you've made on these forums.