I admit, I was exaggerating for humorous effect but Civil War is still a very flawed story that featured some poorly written characterizations and, despite it's infamous reputation, really has had absolutely no long-lasting effects on the MCU that I'm aware of other than a few character deaths that haven't been ret-conned yet. It was a big flashy event no different than every other big flashy event and Marvel would do well to avoid adapting it for the screen.
I admit, I was exaggerating for humorous effect but Civil War is still a very flawed story that featured some poorly written characterizations and, despite it's infamous reputation, really has had absolutely no long-lasting effects on the MCU that I'm aware of other than a few character deaths that haven't been ret-conned yet. It was a big flashy event no different than every other big flashy event and Marvel would do well to avoid adapting it for the screen.
I disagree. I think, from a publishing point of view, it actually set a new template for the big flashy events. There have been many such since, but there had not been a Marvel one before Civil War that hit that big, at least, not for many years. (Maybe the last one that had involved as many books across the line was Secret Wars 2, which was 20 years before or so?)
Sure, a lot of the fallout (though much of it played across years), has played out, and most things have returned to the status quo the way they always do, I think it did a few other things that have lasted, and I think these things happened just in time for the Marvel cinematic universe to launch and make the Avengers the characters we think about the most when we think about the Marvel Universe--
Maybe the main thing, I think it increased Tony Stark's role and status in the MU. Even though things were done to repair the damage done to his relationship with the other characters, and that Fraction story gave him a kind of mental reboot and apology tour so that the Avengers could be the Avengers again, I think the takeaway was still that Stark- just in time to become a huge movie franchise- was suddenly a bigger, more formidable character. He could now unleash world changing technologies on the world the way that they used to rely on Reed Richards to do. (In fact, I think- whether by design or by chance, Civil War did a lot to hurt Reed as a character in the larger MU). And Stark could be seen as a leader of forces in a way that was different to Cap, but equal to Cap. I feel like Civil War is when Iron Man stepped up in prominence as a MU player to be on par with Cap.
I think this story also succeeded in feeling like a big story about the Marvel Universe while at the same time leaving the X-Men almost entirely out of it, and even relegating the Fantastic Four characters (especially Reed) to supporting roles instead of leading roles. In making this a big story where there was a Stark side and a Cap side, and the split down the middle of the MU was actually a split down the middle of the Avengers, we started to make the Marvel Universe an Avengers Universe.
Remember-- Civil War happened when the Bendis era of New Avengers was less than two years in. Avengers comics were eclipsing X-Men sales, but that was a very recent phenomenon. And then Civil War came along to seal that deal.
Within the MU, I think Civil War also boosted the place of SHIELD in the MU. Making it more powerful and overarching, the way that it had been in the Ultimate line, but had not been in the 616 for a long time, if ever. In the Ultimates, Millar had been connecting SHIELD (and SHIELD-connected superheroes) to the zeitgeist of the post-9/11 security climate of the '00s. And Civil War took that feeling of SHIELD as a very powerful, and potentially corruptible, security state and made them a bigger player in the MU. And I think that has lasted, too.
I might be able to think of more, but those are the ones that first come to mind. I feel like Civil War gave them the chance to bring in some of the things that had been happening (and resonating) in the Ultimates, and nudge the MU in that direction, just in time for the cinematic universe to launch (and be a lot like the Ultimate line).
There was some concern when Pete revealed his identity to the whole world (think: I am Iron Man) about how they were going to get that particular genie back into the bottle. 7 years later some people may not remember the series fondly but at the time that joker was selling like mad.
I admit, I was exaggerating for humorous effect but Civil War is still a very flawed story that featured some poorly written characterizations and, despite it's infamous reputation, really has had absolutely no long-lasting effects on the MCU that I'm aware of other than a few character deaths that haven't been ret-conned yet. It was a big flashy event no different than every other big flashy event and Marvel would do well to avoid adapting it for the screen.
I feel like Civil War gave them the chance to bring in some of the things that had been happening (and resonating) in the Ultimates, and nudge the MU in that direction, just in time for the cinematic universe to launch (and be a lot like the Ultimate line).
Therein lies the problem for me. The 616 isn't the Ultimate line nor is it the cinematic universe. And I always tend to feel it rather contrived when Marvel tries to make me feel that all three are one and the same.
I certainly respect your opinion and I know that many others share it. Civil War just had very little to offer to a reader like myself, especially when my favorite super hero at the time, Spider-Man, was written so wildly out of character, revealing his secret identity to the world and coming out of the story suffering the worst collateral damage.
It may have set the bar for future events and set the tone for the MU at the time but it was a dark and foreboding tone that made me feel unwelcome and alienated me from my favorite comics publisher for years. It's also the reason that, upon my return, I went straight to books like Silver Surfer and Ms. Marvel, not Avengers.
I admit, I was exaggerating for humorous effect but Civil War is still a very flawed story that featured some poorly written characterizations and, despite it's infamous reputation, really has had absolutely no long-lasting effects on the MCU that I'm aware of other than a few character deaths that haven't been ret-conned yet. It was a big flashy event no different than every other big flashy event and Marvel would do well to avoid adapting it for the screen.
I feel like Civil War gave them the chance to bring in some of the things that had been happening (and resonating) in the Ultimates, and nudge the MU in that direction, just in time for the cinematic universe to launch (and be a lot like the Ultimate line).
Therein lies the problem for me. The 616 isn't the Ultimate line nor is it the cinematic universe. And I always tend to feel it rather contrived when Marvel tries to make me feel that all three are one and the same.
I certainly respect your opinion and I know that many others share it. Civil War just had very little to offer to a reader like myself, especially when my favorite super hero at the time, Spider-Man, was written so wildly out of character, revealing his secret identity to the world and coming out of the story suffering the worst collateral damage.
It may have set the bar for future events and set the tone for the MU at the time but it was a dark and foreboding tone that made me feel unwelcome and alienated me from my favorite comics publisher for years. It's also the reason that, upon my return, I went straight to books like Silver Surfer and Ms. Marvel, not Avengers.
and there is nothing wrong with that. I know a lot of folks (myself included) that were really turned off by that whole Dark Avengers/Norman Osborn era. So, You find something you like and spend your money on that instead.
I admit, I was exaggerating for humorous effect but Civil War is still a very flawed story that featured some poorly written characterizations and, despite it's infamous reputation, really has had absolutely no long-lasting effects on the MCU that I'm aware of other than a few character deaths that haven't been ret-conned yet. It was a big flashy event no different than every other big flashy event and Marvel would do well to avoid adapting it for the screen.
I feel like Civil War gave them the chance to bring in some of the things that had been happening (and resonating) in the Ultimates, and nudge the MU in that direction, just in time for the cinematic universe to launch (and be a lot like the Ultimate line).
Therein lies the problem for me. The 616 isn't the Ultimate line nor is it the cinematic universe. And I always tend to feel it rather contrived when Marvel tries to make me feel that all three are one and the same.
I certainly respect your opinion and I know that many others share it. Civil War just had very little to offer to a reader like myself, especially when my favorite super hero at the time, Spider-Man, was written so wildly out of character, revealing his secret identity to the world and coming out of the story suffering the worst collateral damage.
It may have set the bar for future events and set the tone for the MU at the time but it was a dark and foreboding tone that made me feel unwelcome and alienated me from my favorite comics publisher for years. It's also the reason that, upon my return, I went straight to books like Silver Surfer and Ms. Marvel, not Avengers.
And, of course, I wouldn't argue that it wasn't polarizing, or that there weren't a lot of readers that found it alienating, or a change for the worse. I get that, and I think that is a valid takeaway. So I am not arguing that you should have liked it, rather I was disagreeing with the idea that it has had no longterm effects. Even if most of the dead have returned, I think there are status changes and a reshuffling of who has the power in the MU that have lasted.
Looking at the big picture, Civil War generated genuine excitement, sold really well, and it did actually alter the Marvel Universe for a few years. For a while there, we had some real tension between different groups, and I still recall the era in which we had heroes assigned to specific states, certain characters operating as fugitives, etc.
Unfortunately, getting to that point required some really bad character writing, a flashy development for Spider-Man that they had no intention of sticking with, and its success led to the endless cycle of events we have now, where the end of the event simply sets up the status quo to be knocked down by the next event.
There was some concern when Pete revealed his identity to the whole world (think: I am Iron Man) about how they were going to get that particular genie back into the bottle. 7 years later some people may not remember the series fondly but at the time that joker was selling like mad.
That joker was also spoiled for me in the NY Post. (and in part due to my Dad, who was being helpful and knew I enjoyed hearing about comics in the media)
There was some concern when Pete revealed his identity to the whole world (think: I am Iron Man) about how they were going to get that particular genie back into the bottle. 7 years later some people may not remember the series fondly but at the time that joker was selling like mad.
That joker was also spoiled for me in the NY Post. (and in part due to my Dad, who was beign helpful and knew I enjoyed hearing about comics in the media)
There was some concern when Pete revealed his identity to the whole world (think: I am Iron Man) about how they were going to get that particular genie back into the bottle. 7 years later some people may not remember the series fondly but at the time that joker was selling like mad.
That joker was also spoiled for me in the NY Post. (and in part due to my Dad, who was beign helpful and knew I enjoyed hearing about comics in the media)
I still haven't forgiven your dad for that.
Hey, I never forgave him for voting the Hulk in Marvel vs DC.
He still refuses to acknowledge that the Hulk lost.
I admit, I was exaggerating for humorous effect but Civil War is still a very flawed story that featured some poorly written characterizations and, despite it's infamous reputation, really has had absolutely no long-lasting effects on the MCU that I'm aware of other than a few character deaths that haven't been ret-conned yet. It was a big flashy event no different than every other big flashy event and Marvel would do well to avoid adapting it for the screen.
I feel like Civil War gave them the chance to bring in some of the things that had been happening (and resonating) in the Ultimates, and nudge the MU in that direction, just in time for the cinematic universe to launch (and be a lot like the Ultimate line).
I certainly respect your opinion and I know that many others share it. Civil War just had very little to offer to a reader like myself, especially when my favorite super hero at the time, Spider-Man, was written so wildly out of character, revealing his secret identity to the world and coming out of the story suffering the worst collateral damage.
I'm not saying it was well written, but isn't that always part of Spider-man; suffering collateral damage? If there is any character (and it could just be that I have read way more Parker then other characters) who has suffered more loss because of his powers, it's Spider-man. It seems like he is always between a rock and a hard place. He might save the day, but then takes a personal hit. It just seemed a given that he was going to come out the biggest loser (i.e. losing something) of everyone in the war.
And of course, I jumped the webbed ship once BND began, so there's that too.
This has been an interesting month for me here. I have learned my favorite Marvel event (Secret Wars) is considered crap and my non-nostalgia favorite Marvel event (Civil War) fairs only slightly better.
Here's why I liked Civil War; if you read the tie-ins (primarily Iron Man) the "who's side are you on" isn't as clearly cut as the core book would lead you to believe. Sure the ending felt heavily unresolved and a tad anti-climatic, but the journey has always been what interests me in general. It is the journey of a good story that will have you assessing yourself and where you stand (though the ending of Gone Baby, Gone needed to bring the journey to a head to do the self reflection.)
Reading the core books, I thought hands down I would be with Cap. After seeing Stark's point of view, I am not so sure. Now granted, if you read Frontline, you would learn his company heavily benefited, but that wasn't his motive.
With good guys and bad guys, it's normally easy to see where to fall. When it is two heroes (neither possessed, body-snatched, etc) opposing each other based on their morals and ideals, THAT is what I find most interesting in stories like Civil War.
Now granted, the after effects have virtually vanished by now (I am assuming since I only read Moon Knight from Marvel), but that is basically the normal for Marvel events lately. Wrap up one to lead right into the next (which is part of why I don't read events anymore.)
Now granted, the after effects have virtually vanished by now (I am assuming since I only read Moon Knight from Marvel), but that is basically the normal for Marvel events lately. Wrap up one to lead right into the next (which is part of why I don't read events anymore.)
M
The effects lasted for a bit, but registration was done away with as soon as Cap was made head of SHIELD.
Loved civil war. It basically got me back into marvel monthlies. Thought it was incredibly good, well done and executed. Not sure how well it can be translated into the marvel movieverse though. I'm assuming obly very slightly. Just name and general concept only.
Loved civil war. It basically got me back into marvel monthlies. Thought it was incredibly good, well done and executed. Not sure how well it can be translated into the marvel movieverse though. I'm assuming obly very slightly. Just name and general concept only.
Agreed, I think it will fall somewhere between The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron on the Marvel page to screen adaptation scale. Y'know, "inspired by" to "cool name guys!"
So wait. This is NOT a 1865 period peice about Captain America holding the united States together with a musket and a dream? He won't be battling Tony Stark's great-great-grandfather Jebidiah Stark with his steam powered suit of flying armour? Damn. I wanna see concept sketches for this!
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
So wait. This is NOT a 1865 period peice about Captain America holding the united States together with a musket and a dream? He won't be battling Tony Stark's great-great-grandfather Jebidiah Stark with his steam powered suit of flying armour? Damn. I wanna see concept sketches for this!
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
They couldn't have been blasted back in time? **cough** Armageddon: The Alien Agenda **cough**
So wait. This is NOT a 1865 period peice about Captain America holding the united States together with a musket and a dream? He won't be battling Tony Stark's great-great-grandfather Jebidiah Stark with his steam powered suit of flying armour? Damn. I wanna see concept sketches for this!
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
They couldn't have been blasted back in time? **cough** Armageddon: The Alien Agenda **cough**
M
Sure, they could be blasted back in time. Maybe they take a page from Batman's death and have Cap work his way through history back to the present day. We could have Neanderthal Cap, Gladiator Cap (cameo from Russel Crowe in this one), Roman Legion Cap, French Revolution Cap, Revolutionay War Cap (costume sewn by Betsy Ross). There would be a whole Captain America Eras toy line. Kids start missing questions on history exams at school because they think Captain America defeated Emperor Nero. Fun!
So wait. This is NOT a 1865 period peice about Captain America holding the united States together with a musket and a dream? He won't be battling Tony Stark's great-great-grandfather Jebidiah Stark with his steam powered suit of flying armour? Damn. I wanna see concept sketches for this!
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
They couldn't have been blasted back in time? **cough** Armageddon: The Alien Agenda **cough**
M
Sure, they could be blasted back in time. Maybe they take a page from Batman's death and have Cap work his way through history back to the present day. We could have Neanderthal Cap, Gladiator Cap (cameo from Russel Crowe in this one), Roman Legion Cap, French Revolution Cap, Revolutionay War Cap (costume sewn by Betsy Ross). There would be a whole Captain America Eras toy line. Kids start missing questions on history exams at school because they think Captain America defeated Emperor Nero. Fun!
I think somebody needs to go back in time and pitch this idea to Ted Wolf.
So wait. This is NOT a 1865 period peice about Captain America holding the united States together with a musket and a dream? He won't be battling Tony Stark's great-great-grandfather Jebidiah Stark with his steam powered suit of flying armour? Damn. I wanna see concept sketches for this!
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
They couldn't have been blasted back in time? **cough** Armageddon: The Alien Agenda **cough**
M
Sure, they could be blasted back in time. Maybe they take a page from Batman's death and have Cap work his way through history back to the present day. We could have Neanderthal Cap, Gladiator Cap (cameo from Russel Crowe in this one), Roman Legion Cap, French Revolution Cap, Revolutionay War Cap (costume sewn by Betsy Ross). There would be a whole Captain America Eras toy line. Kids start missing questions on history exams at school because they think Captain America defeated Emperor Nero. Fun!
So wait. This is NOT a 1865 period peice about Captain America holding the united States together with a musket and a dream? He won't be battling Tony Stark's great-great-grandfather Jebidiah Stark with his steam powered suit of flying armour? Damn. I wanna see concept sketches for this!
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
They couldn't have been blasted back in time? **cough** Armageddon: The Alien Agenda **cough**
M
Sure, they could be blasted back in time. Maybe they take a page from Batman's death and have Cap work his way through history back to the present day. We could have Neanderthal Cap, Gladiator Cap (cameo from Russel Crowe in this one), Roman Legion Cap, French Revolution Cap, Revolutionay War Cap (costume sewn by Betsy Ross). There would be a whole Captain America Eras toy line. Kids start missing questions on history exams at school because they think Captain America defeated Emperor Nero. Fun!
You just reminded me why I never went back to fill in the gaps of my Batman run with Morrison's issues.
So this big Sony leak revealed a bunch of stuff about their non-plans for Spider-Man this week, but the most interesting was that the talks with Marvel were real and that Cap 3 was the movie they were negotiating to loan him out for. Obviously that didn't happen, but with the complete lack of direction Sony seems to have for the franchise I wouldn't be surprised if they make a second attempt to intergrate.
So this big Sony leak revealed a bunch of stuff about their non-plans for Spider-Man this week, but the most interesting was that the talks with Marvel were real and that Cap 3 was the movie they were negotiating to loan him out for. Obviously that didn't happen, but with the complete lack of direction Sony seems to have for the franchise I wouldn't be surprised if they make a second attempt to intergrate.
What in the blue hell happened to the Spidey franchise?
Then again, suppose that's a topic for another thread.
I don't think Civil War needs Spider-Man. It would be cool to see Spidey in the Marvel Cinematic Universe but he's not necessarily needed. In the comics, there has already been a history between Spider-Man, Iron Man and Captain America. There is no history between these three in the cinematic universe and to make one up in one movie would feel forced. I truly believe that they can do a Civil War movie without the inclusion of Spider-Man and it still hold true to what the original material intended. If I remember correctly, Agent 13 had a bigger role in the Winter Soldier but wasn't used a much in the movie. It was still a good movie. If the Marvel Cinematic people want someone to be caught between both Iron Man and Captain America, why not use someone like Phil Coulson who has history with both characters and it would feel so much more natural. Just a suggestion.
I don't think Civil War needs Spider-Man. It would be cool to see Spidey in the Marvel Cinematic Universe but he's not necessarily needed. In the comics, there has already been a history between Spider-Man, Iron Man and Captain America. There is no history between these three in the cinematic universe and to make one up in one movie would feel forced. I truly believe that they can do a Civil War movie without the inclusion of Spider-Man and it still hold true to what the original material intended. If I remember correctly, Agent 13 had a bigger role in the Winter Soldier but wasn't used a much in the movie. It was still a good movie. If the Marvel Cinematic people want someone to be caught between both Iron Man and Captain America, why not use someone like Phil Coulson who has history with both characters and it would feel so much more natural. Just a suggestion.
I think it was @David_D who suggested it, but Black Widow would fill that role well.
It would be a treat to see Spidey with Cap and Iron Man, nevertheless. If anyone could do old webhead right, it's marvel studios. Sony may really be desperate to integrate after this disaster for them.
I'm amazed Sony is so lost as to what to do with the character. And each story that comes out makes things sound worse and worse. Sinister Six? A Black Cat movie? An Aunt May movie? A Spider-Man comedy by the team that made 21 Jump Street? I know some of those sound made up, but they're all ideas in development that have been in the press in recent weeks.
It's like Batman or James Bond - a pretty simple formula. You'd have to work to screw it up.
I'm amazed Sony is so lost as to what to do with the character. And each story that comes out makes things sound worse and worse. Sinister Six? A Black Cat movie? An Aunt May movie? A Spider-Man comedy by the team that made 21 Jump Street? I know some of those sound made up, but they're all ideas in development that have been in the press in recent weeks.
It's like Batman or James Bond - a pretty simple formula. You'd have to work to screw it up.
I know the 21 Jump Street rumors are the ones that make people cringe the most, but I really think that's probably the only remotely good idea Sony has had, other than getting in bed with Marvel. They also made the Lego Movie, and I think at least that shows they understand how to mix fun with strong emotional beats.
Comments
And then that cover With Spidey fighting the Goblin, Bullseye, and Venom. Which *did not* happen at all.
Oh yeah, and the lackluster ending.
Sure, a lot of the fallout (though much of it played across years), has played out, and most things have returned to the status quo the way they always do, I think it did a few other things that have lasted, and I think these things happened just in time for the Marvel cinematic universe to launch and make the Avengers the characters we think about the most when we think about the Marvel Universe--
Maybe the main thing, I think it increased Tony Stark's role and status in the MU. Even though things were done to repair the damage done to his relationship with the other characters, and that Fraction story gave him a kind of mental reboot and apology tour so that the Avengers could be the Avengers again, I think the takeaway was still that Stark- just in time to become a huge movie franchise- was suddenly a bigger, more formidable character. He could now unleash world changing technologies on the world the way that they used to rely on Reed Richards to do. (In fact, I think- whether by design or by chance, Civil War did a lot to hurt Reed as a character in the larger MU). And Stark could be seen as a leader of forces in a way that was different to Cap, but equal to Cap. I feel like Civil War is when Iron Man stepped up in prominence as a MU player to be on par with Cap.
I think this story also succeeded in feeling like a big story about the Marvel Universe while at the same time leaving the X-Men almost entirely out of it, and even relegating the Fantastic Four characters (especially Reed) to supporting roles instead of leading roles. In making this a big story where there was a Stark side and a Cap side, and the split down the middle of the MU was actually a split down the middle of the Avengers, we started to make the Marvel Universe an Avengers Universe.
Remember-- Civil War happened when the Bendis era of New Avengers was less than two years in. Avengers comics were eclipsing X-Men sales, but that was a very recent phenomenon. And then Civil War came along to seal that deal.
Within the MU, I think Civil War also boosted the place of SHIELD in the MU. Making it more powerful and overarching, the way that it had been in the Ultimate line, but had not been in the 616 for a long time, if ever. In the Ultimates, Millar had been connecting SHIELD (and SHIELD-connected superheroes) to the zeitgeist of the post-9/11 security climate of the '00s. And Civil War took that feeling of SHIELD as a very powerful, and potentially corruptible, security state and made them a bigger player in the MU. And I think that has lasted, too.
I might be able to think of more, but those are the ones that first come to mind. I feel like Civil War gave them the chance to bring in some of the things that had been happening (and resonating) in the Ultimates, and nudge the MU in that direction, just in time for the cinematic universe to launch (and be a lot like the Ultimate line).
I certainly respect your opinion and I know that many others share it. Civil War just had very little to offer to a reader like myself, especially when my favorite super hero at the time, Spider-Man, was written so wildly out of character, revealing his secret identity to the world and coming out of the story suffering the worst collateral damage.
It may have set the bar for future events and set the tone for the MU at the time but it was a dark and foreboding tone that made me feel unwelcome and alienated me from my favorite comics publisher for years. It's also the reason that, upon my return, I went straight to books like Silver Surfer and Ms. Marvel, not Avengers.
Unfortunately, getting to that point required some really bad character writing, a flashy development for Spider-Man that they had no intention of sticking with, and its success led to the endless cycle of events we have now, where the end of the event simply sets up the status quo to be knocked down by the next event.
He still refuses to acknowledge that the Hulk lost.
And of course, I jumped the webbed ship once BND began, so there's that too.
M
Here's why I liked Civil War; if you read the tie-ins (primarily Iron Man) the "who's side are you on" isn't as clearly cut as the core book would lead you to believe. Sure the ending felt heavily unresolved and a tad anti-climatic, but the journey has always been what interests me in general. It is the journey of a good story that will have you assessing yourself and where you stand (though the ending of Gone Baby, Gone needed to bring the journey to a head to do the self reflection.)
Reading the core books, I thought hands down I would be with Cap. After seeing Stark's point of view, I am not so sure. Now granted, if you read Frontline, you would learn his company heavily benefited, but that wasn't his motive.
With good guys and bad guys, it's normally easy to see where to fall. When it is two heroes (neither possessed, body-snatched, etc) opposing each other based on their morals and ideals, THAT is what I find most interesting in stories like Civil War.
Now granted, the after effects have virtually vanished by now (I am assuming since I only read Moon Knight from Marvel), but that is basically the normal for Marvel events lately. Wrap up one to lead right into the next (which is part of why I don't read events anymore.)
M
(and that, boys and girls, is how terrible movies like Wild Wild West get made with gigantic robot spiders)
M
M
Then again, suppose that's a topic for another thread.
M
It's like Batman or James Bond - a pretty simple formula. You'd have to work to screw it up.