Plus, it makes sense as DC's business model. Up until Crisis there were multiple Earths & continuity; I think they've reverted back to that model. Keeping the TV & movies separate is in line with that.
I guess some of those complaints about Miller's dating pool section of Match.com means that Flash will be the same way. Funny how straight people can play gays, gays can play gays, but gays playing straight is unthinkable.
I think Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. disproves that theory rather handily. And even Adam West's Batman did tv and the movie that was theatrically released. I am of the mindset that if DC can't pull it off, then they're ineffective in my opinion. I expect that if the tv show continues to succeed, a swell of disapproval for NOT using the same star will begin to emerge as the production begins to loom.
I think Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. disproves that theory rather handily. And even Adam West's Batman did tv and the movie that was theatrically released. I am of the mindset that if DC can't pull it off, then they're ineffective in my opinion. I expect that if the tv show continues to succeed, a swell of disapproval for NOT using the same star will begin to emerge as the production begins to loom.
How does Agents of SHIELD disprove it? In that case, a character created in the movies (playing a pretty small, though great, role) carried into a TV series that is clearly set in the same continuity as the existing cinematic universe. That is different than the Flash from an existing Flash show that may or may not be set in the same world as Man of Steel and these Justice League movies becoming the same Flash they put into the Justice League. And therefore making these Justice League movies beholden to a continuity that includes a member who may, by then, actually be more experienced then many of those other Justice League heroes. As by then the TV show may have been running for years.
If anything, Agents of SHIELD is actually a reminder that it is the movies that have the most influence on what we imagine the shared universe to be. To the point that Marvel has (wisely) spun from the movies to the TV continuity.
And the 1960s movie is an example of a TV show popular enough to make a movie from the same show, for an audience that wanted the same Batman in the same style. That is also a very different prospect than assuming that people going to see the Zac Snyder Justice League movie want it to be just like the tone of the Flash TV show, you know what I mean?
My point is not that they *can't* pull it off. Rather, there is no gain in pulling it off, especially when there is precedent that they can have both Flashes at the same time.
Sure, there might be some hardcore Flash TV fans that may make noise online about it not being the Flash they want in the movies... but do you think they won't show up to see what they've been complaining about? And even if they did, would it be in numbers that would actually move the needle?
Does anyone think that angry Tom Welling fans hurt the opening weekend of Superman Returns?
Does anyone think that angry Tom Welling fans hurt the opening weekend of Superman Returns?
Did they announce a Superboy TV show the same month Smallville began airing? But if they had made that movie, starring Tom Welling, would it have been a terrible decision to do it the final week of the show? No. It's the timing of the announcement I'm bothered by more, not so much the casting. This new guy could be Jay Garrik if he starts working out.
I think DC does have more to gain than to lose. They would get the fans of the television show in the theaters, however few there are. Not simply because there are far more precedents of using the same casting in the film versions as the tv series than the opposite. Especially with the two entities being so close to one another. From Firefly to Serenity, From Star Trek to the Original Motion Picture, (and Next Generation) up to and including Twin Peaks, and even less popular shows such as Clueless, Sex & the City, and others used the same cast (mostly). The timing of the announcement issimply terrible marketing.
I realize that I'm just spitting in the wind here, but it appears that the guy cast as the movie Flash looks NOTHING like any iteration of the comics Flash I've ever seen. Build, appearance, hair, na da. With The Flash live-action show starring Grant Gustin, the star of one of the best pilots of the season, and The CW’s most-watched program ever, I suppose I shouldn't expect DC to be making wise decisions regarding their movie properties. Why on earth would DC try to duplicate anything Marvel is doing? Of course Marvel would never re-cast "Agent Coulson", so what this says to me, and many other fans of Arrow and The Flash, is that DC would certainly not think twice about it.
Further proving DC's odd decision-making, why would anyone think that it was a good idea to announce that they're casting a different actor in the Flash movie just as the tv show is beginning to fire up? Are we at episode 3 yet? What are the tv show fans supposed to think of that? Should they be applauding that announcement? What exactly is DC trying to accomplish with the announcement when there isn't even a script written and the tv show is becoming quite popular and entertaining new fans? Does the show not count? What message are they trying to convey?
Why not wait until a script, a director, and even see how well the other movies before it do before announcing the actor to be cast? We won't even know for sure who is playing Doctor Strange, or Captain Marvel, or the Inhumans. Does DC know who is starring in the Suicide Squad movie yet? Will they tell us next week? That film is slated for two years earlier than the Flash. I suppose the better question is what is the point or agenda DC has making such a premature announcement that seems to fly in the face of brand marketing on so very many levels? Oh yeah, I almost forgot... - further demonstrating how little DC cares little about what the fans want. Nevermind the rant. The diversity quota must be met at any cost. You will be made to "care"...
Is this an assumption that everyone watching the movies are watching the various TV series? I know I'm not the only one not doing that. Why confine the movies or series to parameters set by the other?
I'd also like to throw this out there because I see it all the time on fan websites; what's with this notion the studios/companies should give the fans what "they" want? First, that's subjective to the individual fan.
Second, what's the percentage of revenue for the movies is really based on people who read the source material? 30%? 40%? I'm betting it's less then 50%. That means the majority of your average moviegoer's don't get hung up on things like different actors from TV to movie. It also means, the studios can virtually do what they feel works best.
And the reality is, getting what they want or not, fans are more likely to see the movie then not.
Matt - would you agree that maybe DC is more interested in creating new fans, than catering to older, aging fans? DC shouldn't just copy what Marvel did - because Marvel is just as guilty of altering continuity/costumes/characters to fit their movie goals. Clearly the Marvel movies are a mix of 616 and the Ultimate Universe. Just look at Falcon. Or the Avengers team up which is the Ultimates come to life. So if DC copies anything - it's the idea that they can make new fans of their movie properties. To go along with your numbers, Matt, it's probably safe to say that the movies are more "important" as the face of the characters, than the comics are. If that makes sense. The movies mine from the comics, but to the world, the movies ARE the "real" characters. And I'm okay with that. It all can coexist with and aside each other. I don't remember anyone really freaking out about the cartoons not matching up with whatever movie was out at the time. Haha.
I'm a Flash fan and have been for years. The TV show was done well and is succeeding. Were the fans catered to in regards to the show? So, while your points and opinions are certainly valid, neither explains the wisdom (or lack thereof) found in making this casting announcement 4 years out with no script or director in place while at the same time the television show is debuting with a different actor. That's my central point. I think it's a dumb move and it does nothing but put off what few fans of the show they do have. Which is what, about four million? And with little effort, you can find plenty of people who may or may not be a fan of the show that still dislike the casting choice for what it was. So DC puts off around 5 million or so because they don't want to share the same universe? Brilliant!
Matt - would you agree that maybe DC is more interested in creating new fans, than catering to older, aging fans? DC shouldn't just copy what Marvel did - because Marvel is just as guilty of altering continuity/costumes/characters to fit their movie goals. Clearly the Marvel movies are a mix of 616 and the Ultimate Universe. Just look at Falcon. Or the Avengers team up which is the Ultimates come to life. So if DC copies anything - it's the idea that they can make new fans of their movie properties. To go along with your numbers, Matt, it's probably safe to say that the movies are more "important" as the face of the characters, than the comics are. If that makes sense. The movies mine from the comics, but to the world, the movies ARE the "real" characters. And I'm okay with that. It all can coexist with and aside each other. I don't remember anyone really freaking out about the cartoons not matching up with whatever movie was out at the time. Haha.
I wouldn't limit to DC, but yes; new fans>existing fans.
I do think it's better to keep TV & movies separate. There's already fans complaining what the tone of the DCCU is looking to be & raving about the tone of the TV universe. If they're shared, one would have to change...and I think the movies are more revenue producing.
Does anyone think that angry Tom Welling fans hurt the opening weekend of Superman Returns?
Did they announce a Superboy TV show the same month Smallville began airing? But if they had made that movie, starring Tom Welling, would it have been a terrible decision to do it the final week of the show? No. It's the timing of the announcement I'm bothered by more, not so much the casting. This new guy could be Jay Garrik if he starts working out.
I think DC does have more to gain than to lose. They would get the fans of the television show in the theaters, however few there are. Not simply because there are far more precedents of using the same casting in the film versions as the tv series than the opposite. Especially with the two entities being so close to one another. From Firefly to Serenity, From Star Trek to the Original Motion Picture, (and Next Generation) up to and including Twin Peaks, and even less popular shows such as Clueless, Sex & the City, and others used the same cast (mostly). The timing of the announcement issimply terrible marketing.
I realize that I'm just spitting in the wind here, but it appears that the guy cast as the movie Flash looks NOTHING like any iteration of the comics Flash I've ever seen. Build, appearance, hair, na da. With The Flash live-action show starring Grant Gustin, the star of one of the best pilots of the season, and The CW’s most-watched program ever, I suppose I shouldn't expect DC to be making wise decisions regarding their movie properties. Why on earth would DC try to duplicate anything Marvel is doing? Of course Marvel would never re-cast "Agent Coulson", so what this says to me, and many other fans of Arrow and The Flash, is that DC would certainly not think twice about it.
Further proving DC's odd decision-making, why would anyone think that it was a good idea to announce that they're casting a different actor in the Flash movie just as the tv show is beginning to fire up? Are we at episode 3 yet? What are the tv show fans supposed to think of that? Should they be applauding that announcement? What exactly is DC trying to accomplish with the announcement when there isn't even a script written and the tv show is becoming quite popular and entertaining new fans? Does the show not count? What message are they trying to convey?
Why not wait until a script, a director, and even see how well the other movies before it do before announcing the actor to be cast? We won't even know for sure who is playing Doctor Strange, or Captain Marvel, or the Inhumans. Does DC know who is starring in the Suicide Squad movie yet? Will they tell us next week? That film is slated for two years earlier than the Flash. I suppose the better question is what is the point or agenda DC has making such a premature announcement that seems to fly in the face of brand marketing on so very many levels? Oh yeah, I almost forgot... - further demonstrating how little DC cares little about what the fans want. Nevermind the rant. The diversity quota must be met at any cost. You will be made to "care"...
*yawn*
The people making these movies are making new things. They should make the best new things they can, in the medium they are making them for: movies.
To instead try to please the existing fans of the older things, like the comics, or even a TV show that probably started its development years ago, and will be that many years older by the time these movies hit, is the tail wagging the dog.
Do we really think that people watching a Flash TV show or-- especially-- read Flash comics would actually need to be pandered to in order to get them to show up for a Justice League movie?
Even when you are using characters that have existed for decades, you should always make your own choices for the new thing you're making, rather than be afraid of what an existing fan base is attached to. Because that is why these characters are still around this much later- because they have changed and adapted.
And personally, as much as the filmmakers should cherry pick what they can from movies or TV, I don't see the value of them limiting themselves to the past choices of other storytellers.
And personally, as much as the filmmakers should cherry pick what they can from movies or TV, I don't see the value of them limiting themselves to the past choices of other storytellers.
Great points David. Now answer me as to the central point of my rant. Why make this casting announcement at this time without a script or director at the same time the television show is just debuting? How do you see that as a wise move?
And personally, as much as the filmmakers should cherry pick what they can from movies or TV, I don't see the value of them limiting themselves to the past choices of other storytellers.
Great points David. Now answer me as to the central point of my rant. Why make this casting announcement at this time without a script or director at the same time the television show is just debuting? How do you see that as a wise move?
Because when we meet the Flash actor that is going to be introduced in Justice League (or maybe even in Batman V Superman) those who care enough about the stuff to know the whole upcoming slate of movies know that they are invested enough in this actor, and in this version of Flash, that we get a whole movie about him in 20whatever. Because they are going to use the next few movies to sell the mainstream audience on movies in the future that (probably) won't have Batman in them. They need to make Batman and Superman fans into Justice League fans, so that they will turn out to the movies about those other League members.
An audience that is already watching a Flash TV show don't enter into it, because they can already be counted on to show up to these movies.
This is about growing an audience. And finding new audiences.
You don't do that by worrying about the hardcore fans that are already in hand.
And heck, even if Flash TV fans get up in arms and make noise, you know what that gets? Noise that make make people more aware there is a Flash TV show, and someday a Flash movie.
I also don't believe the average moviegoer even pays a second thought to the casting of movies unless he/she is already a household name. How many people lost their shit when the actor playing Cyborg was announced? How many people know who Ezra Miller is?
I also don't believe the average moviegoer even pays a second thought to the casting of movies unless he/she is already a household name. How many people lost their shit when the actor playing Cyborg was announced? How many people know who Ezra Miller is?
M
This may or may not answer that question. I submit The Flash is FAR more popular a character than Cyborg.
when we meet the Flash actor that is going to be introduced in Justice League (or maybe even in Batman V Superman) those who care enough about the stuff to know the whole upcoming slate of movies know that they are invested enough in this actor, and in this version of Flash, that we get a whole movie about him in 20whatever. Because they are going to use the next few movies to sell the mainstream audience on movies in the future that (probably) won't have Batman in them. They need to make Batman and Superman fans into Justice League fans, so that they will turn out to the movies about those other League members.
An audience that is already watching a Flash TV show don't enter into it, because they can already be counted on to show up to these movies.
This is about growing an audience. And finding new audiences.
So in order to "find new audiences" you can only cast different actors? Because you've already trapped your new fans of a month old television show, who cares if they like the new Flash, they're going to get a different one in the next movie. And the women that think the tv actor is cute or sexy or attractive can be counted on to attend a movie about the same character with a different actor you say?
I also don't believe the average moviegoer even pays a second thought to the casting of movies unless he/she is already a household name. How many people lost their shit when the actor playing Cyborg was announced? How many people know who Ezra Miller is?
M
This may or may not answer that question. I submit The Flash is FAR more popular a character than Cyborg.
when we meet the Flash actor that is going to be introduced in Justice League (or maybe even in Batman V Superman) those who care enough about the stuff to know the whole upcoming slate of movies know that they are invested enough in this actor, and in this version of Flash, that we get a whole movie about him in 20whatever. Because they are going to use the next few movies to sell the mainstream audience on movies in the future that (probably) won't have Batman in them. They need to make Batman and Superman fans into Justice League fans, so that they will turn out to the movies about those other League members.
An audience that is already watching a Flash TV show don't enter into it, because they can already be counted on to show up to these movies.
This is about growing an audience. And finding new audiences.
So in order to "find new audiences" you can only cast different actors? Because you've already trapped your new fans of a month old television show, who cares if they like the new Flash, they're going to get a different one in the next movie. And the women that think the tv actor is cute or sexy or attractive can be counted on to attend a movie about the same character with a different actor you say?
Brilliant. Not impressed.
Looks like a lot of tweets by people who aren't giving a guy a chance. Also, they're expecting DC to mirror Marvel.
I also don't believe the average moviegoer even pays a second thought to the casting of movies unless he/she is already a household name. How many people lost their shit when the actor playing Cyborg was announced? How many people know who Ezra Miller is?
M
This may or may not answer that question. I submit The Flash is FAR more popular a character than Cyborg.
when we meet the Flash actor that is going to be introduced in Justice League (or maybe even in Batman V Superman) those who care enough about the stuff to know the whole upcoming slate of movies know that they are invested enough in this actor, and in this version of Flash, that we get a whole movie about him in 20whatever. Because they are going to use the next few movies to sell the mainstream audience on movies in the future that (probably) won't have Batman in them. They need to make Batman and Superman fans into Justice League fans, so that they will turn out to the movies about those other League members.
An audience that is already watching a Flash TV show don't enter into it, because they can already be counted on to show up to these movies.
This is about growing an audience. And finding new audiences.
So in order to "find new audiences" you can only cast different actors? Because you've already trapped your new fans of a month old television show, who cares if they like the new Flash, they're going to get a different one in the next movie. And the women that think the tv actor is cute or sexy or attractive can be counted on to attend a movie about the same character with a different actor you say?
Brilliant. Not impressed.
No. Because it is actually likely to be two different characters, and so they are going to hire and promote two different people. And they don't actually need the Flash TV audience as much as you seem to think they do. (And there are probably many examples of hardcore fans that express disappointment about something, but then show up anyway).
I think they'll do fine. There have certainly been many examples of audiences being able to fit more than one actor into their lives, even playing the same character. Heck, I've met elementary school kids that know what a "reboot" is. So I don't know that the mainstream audience is as resistant to change as we might assume.
At the end of the day, it is actually not about impressing you. Or me.
That seems to be the hardest part for us long term fans of these characters to accept, as superheroes have gone from a subculture (comics) to pop culture (movies, video games, TV): it's not about us anymore. We're in the tank. We're going to show up to these movies, even if is just to have new things to grumble about online. But from a marketing point of view, it is not about us anymore.
I said it may or may not answer. You still maintained your comparison of Cyborg to the Flash though. @Matt, I take it by this response that you must think it was indeed a wise choice to announce this information within the same time-frame that the tv show has just launched with a new actor playing the Flash. You further must also feel that it would NOT have been wise to wait a bit or at least until a director was selected or a script written. After all, the movie is just around the corner... 2018.
I said it may or may not answer. You still maintained your comparison of Cyborg to the Flash though. @Matt, I take it by this response that you must think it was indeed a wise choice to announce this information within the same time-frame that the tv show has just launched with a new actor playing the Flash. You further must also feel that it would NOT have been wise to wait a bit or at least until a director was selected or a script written. After all, the movie is just around the corner... 2018.
Got it.
You can take the alphabet soup back out of my mouth. What I said is I don't think it makes a difference. That's a small sample size of people. I'm betting the number of people who really care are smaller then the number of people who will just go to see it. Are you (and I guess an assumption of we) concluding that everyone who sees the movie version is also watching the TV series?
Unless it's an A-list actor, I really don't believe the average person paid no never mind to the announcement, if they heard it at all.
And there has been a writer & director announced; Chris Terrio & Zack Snyder. If Flash doesn't have a cameo in BvS:DoJ, he's certainly appearing in the Justice League movie in 2017.
No. Because it is actually likely to be two different characters, and so they are going to hire and promote two different people. And they don't actually need the Flash TV audience as much as you seem to think they do. (And there are probably many examples of hardcore fans that express disappointment about something, but then show up anyway).
I think they'll do fine. There have certainly been many examples of audiences being able to fit more than one actor into their lives, even playing the same character. Heck, I've met elementary school kids that know what a "reboot" is. So I don't know that the mainstream audience is as resistant to change as we might assume.
At the end of the day, it is actually not about impressing you. Or me.
That seems to be the hardest part for us long term fans of these characters to accept, as superheroes have gone from a subculture (comics) to pop culture (movies, video games, TV): it's not about us anymore. We're in the tank. We're going to show up to these movies, even if is just to have new things to grumble about online. But from a marketing point of view, it is not about us anymore.
@David_D I never said it wouldn't "do fine" nor did I say they "need the Flash TV show audience", I merely posited that I thought it was a dumb decision from a branding and marketing decision. You have yet to explain the wisdom of making this particular casting announcement while the tv show is just starting up and receiving good reviews. Furthermore, no script exists nor has a director been chosen for this as-yet-unnamed Flash movie coming out in four years. Even if this other actor appears in BvS, and is a separate character, what was the need to announce this casting decision so early and while the TV show is just firing up and receiving positive feedback? And an even dumber move if the series lasts only half as many seasons as Smallville... So, again, where was the wisdom in making this announcement at this particular time? I remain unconvinced.
Still waiting on that 2016 Suicide Squad movie cast press release...
Sidestepping the "answer me this and then when you do I'll just ignore it and ask ten other questions" back and forth, here's a question for anyone else that may still be here. Haha: Which of these movies do you think is the "deal breaker"? The one that HAS to succeed? I've read some saying it's Justice League. Because it's the closest to what Marvel did with Avengers. But I think it's Batman and Superman. Not knowing what the movie is about, I feel like it's the one that needs to kickstart all the rest, especially if other characters are in the movie alongside Superman and Batman. Thoughts?
No. Because it is actually likely to be two different characters, and so they are going to hire and promote two different people. And they don't actually need the Flash TV audience as much as you seem to think they do. (And there are probably many examples of hardcore fans that express disappointment about something, but then show up anyway).
I think they'll do fine. There have certainly been many examples of audiences being able to fit more than one actor into their lives, even playing the same character. Heck, I've met elementary school kids that know what a "reboot" is. So I don't know that the mainstream audience is as resistant to change as we might assume.
At the end of the day, it is actually not about impressing you. Or me.
That seems to be the hardest part for us long term fans of these characters to accept, as superheroes have gone from a subculture (comics) to pop culture (movies, video games, TV): it's not about us anymore. We're in the tank. We're going to show up to these movies, even if is just to have new things to grumble about online. But from a marketing point of view, it is not about us anymore.
@David_D I never said it wouldn't "do fine" nor did I say they "need the Flash TV show audience", I merely posited that I thought it was a dumb decision from a branding and marketing decision. You have yet to explain the wisdom of making this particular casting announcement while the tv show is just starting up and receiving good reviews. Furthermore, no script exists nor has a director been chosen for this as-yet-unnamed Flash movie coming out in four years. Even if this other actor appears in BvS, and is a separate character, what was the need to announce this casting decision so early and while the TV show is just firing up and receiving positive feedback? And an even dumber move if the series lasts only half as many seasons as Smallville... So, again, where was the wisdom in making this announcement at this particular time? I remain unconvinced.
Still waiting on that 2016 Suicide Squad movie cast press release...
From what I have heard, making the announcement has not effected the ratings of the TV series. I am betting the movie announcement was more for the moviegoers, then the general public.
Sidestepping the "answer me this and then when you do I'll just ignore it and ask ten other questions" back and forth, here's a question for anyone else that may still be here. Haha: Which of these movies do you think is the "deal breaker"? The one that HAS to succeed? I've read some saying it's Justice League. Because it's the closest to what Marvel did with Avengers. But I think it's Batman and Superman. Not knowing what the movie is about, I feel like it's the one that needs to kickstart all the rest, especially if other characters are in the movie alongside Superman and Batman. Thoughts?
I agree, it is BvS:DoJ. If it fails with arguably the biggest comic book characters in the world, what are the chances adding the rest will make a significant enough a difference to warrant expanding to lesser known characters, such as Suicide Squad?
It is Batman V Superman. If it fails to perform (which I doubt it will fail), the entire DC movie universe endeavor is in question. Warner Bros/DC have been in panic mode since the phenomenal successes of Marvel/Disney and have opted for a quick-fix at the global box-office rather than patiently building a franchise and steadily building for the future.
At this point, DC will always be second-best because Marvel had a long-term plan and were dedicated to its implementation over several years. The strategy has paid-off dividends but this type of sustained success is impossible to maintain and Marvel's popularity will eventually falter when they exhaust their primary roster and audiences look for something new.
No. Because it is actually likely to be two different characters, and so they are going to hire and promote two different people. And they don't actually need the Flash TV audience as much as you seem to think they do. (And there are probably many examples of hardcore fans that express disappointment about something, but then show up anyway).
I think they'll do fine. There have certainly been many examples of audiences being able to fit more than one actor into their lives, even playing the same character. Heck, I've met elementary school kids that know what a "reboot" is. So I don't know that the mainstream audience is as resistant to change as we might assume.
At the end of the day, it is actually not about impressing you. Or me.
That seems to be the hardest part for us long term fans of these characters to accept, as superheroes have gone from a subculture (comics) to pop culture (movies, video games, TV): it's not about us anymore. We're in the tank. We're going to show up to these movies, even if is just to have new things to grumble about online. But from a marketing point of view, it is not about us anymore.
@David_D I never said it wouldn't "do fine" nor did I say they "need the Flash TV show audience", I merely posited that I thought it was a dumb decision from a branding and marketing decision. You have yet to explain the wisdom of making this particular casting announcement while the tv show is just starting up and receiving good reviews. Furthermore, no script exists nor has a director been chosen for this as-yet-unnamed Flash movie coming out in four years. Even if this other actor appears in BvS, and is a separate character, what was the need to announce this casting decision so early and while the TV show is just firing up and receiving positive feedback? And an even dumber move if the series lasts only half as many seasons as Smallville... So, again, where was the wisdom in making this announcement at this particular time? I remain unconvinced.
Still waiting on that 2016 Suicide Squad movie cast press release...
I gave reasons why you'd want different actors at the very beginning of this exchange: It makes scheduling easier when you don't have to potentially have a series lead TV actor in the ensemble of your franchise vs. a new guy you can lock down now whose only priority will be your movies.
The creatives each get to make their own Flash. The movies get to introduce him their own way without being beholden to TV continuity.
And, to add a new one, depending on the contracts of the key creatives or production companies/the network involved in the Flash TV show, bringing that actor and that suit into the movies might have financial implications on the money those movies make, and who gets what points on things.
(Doesn't Warner Brothers only own 50% of the CW? It could be that if the Flash movie could be seen as a big screen adaptation of a CW show then the CBS side of the CW gets a piece they wouldn't get if the movie Flash has a firewall between it and the TV adaptation).
All sensible reasons to me. Especially when stacked up against the gain of wooing a fan base from a TV show that may or may not be on the air still when these movies happen.
Sidestepping the "answer me this and then when you do I'll just ignore it and ask ten other questions" back and forth, here's a question for anyone else that may still be here. Haha: Which of these movies do you think is the "deal breaker"? The one that HAS to succeed? I've read some saying it's Justice League. Because it's the closest to what Marvel did with Avengers. But I think it's Batman and Superman. Not knowing what the movie is about, I feel like it's the one that needs to kickstart all the rest, especially if other characters are in the movie alongside Superman and Batman. Thoughts?
It's a good question.
I think even if people are disappointed in Batman V Superman, and there is a big drop off after what will surely be an enormous opening, that they still could open Justice League big. Because they could just play up the huge size of it, and always make it seem like less of a Superman/Batman driven thing (or even go with a cut that really highlights other characters).
I think it would take both Batman V Superman and Justice League to be stinkers. But I don't expect that to happen.
I don't know if you are purposely missing my question @David_D or unable to give a satisfying answer other than explaining why it's perfectly okay for Warner Bros to have a different actor. That isn't my point at all. The question remains. Why talk about it this month? Why not wait until the program's hype and hoopla had waned a bit or at least settled down? Why not wait until you have a director or a script in place? Why take any thunder from your tv properties at this crucial time where any Flash press ought to be covering the tv version, not some movie still many, many years away? Not a wise decision at all. Casting choices notwithstanding.
I don't know if you are purposely missing my question @David_D or unable to give a satisfying answer other than explaining why it's perfectly okay for Warner Bros to have a different actor. That isn't my point at all. The question remains. Why talk about it this month? Why not wait until the program's hype and hoopla had waned a bit or at least settled down? Why not wait until you have a director or a script in place? Why take any thunder from your tv properties at this crucial time where any Flash press ought to be covering the tv version, not some movie still many, many years away? Not a wise decision at all. Casting choices notwithstanding.
He's at least in the JLA movie, which is filming back-to-back with BvS:DoJ. There's a director & writer.
Again, did Flash TV series seem to take any ratings hit because of the announcement? Any chance the success of the series couldve been a benefit for Miller cast as Flash?
I don't know if you are purposely missing my question @David_D or unable to give a satisfying answer other than explaining why it's perfectly okay for Warner Bros to have a different actor. That isn't my point at all. The question remains. Why talk about it this month? Why not wait until the program's hype and hoopla had waned a bit or at least settled down? Why not wait until you have a director or a script in place? Why take any thunder from your tv properties at this crucial time where any Flash press ought to be covering the tv version, not some movie still many, many years away? Not a wise decision at all. Casting choices notwithstanding.
1. The film division wanted to make a big, 'we've got a big plan and here are details to buzz about' announcement. So they did. Maybe knowing that Marvel's Phase Three slate announcement was on the way.
With the details they had. And actors people had barely heard of two weeks ago are now getting attention, and their profile raised (for example, EW last week had a sidebar on the relative unknown cast to play Cyborg. From unknown to superhero franchise player and future lead-- this got them some press even before a director or writer is locked down).
2. It is not the film divisions job to make people watch the Flash TV show. It has to sink or swim on its own merits.
From unknown to superhero franchise player and future lead-- this got them some press even before a director or writer is locked down).
2. It is not the film divisions job to make people watch the Flash TV show. It has to sink or swim on its own merits.
Sounds a lot like the DC kingdom is very divided against itself. A bad omen to say the least. So you think DC had what to gain by dismissing the success of the tv show and making a movie cast announcement that trampled on the tv show's gain, I see.
@Matt, whether or not the Flash show took a hit because of the announcement is beside the point. Did they announce the entire cast of JLA or Suicide Squad already and we missed it? Again, this steals publicity thunder from the tv series. There is no "gain" in doing that. Even some of the tv show actors were slightly put off by the announcement. If you and a few others here want to continue to presume it was a wise decision and those it bothered have no ground to stand on, so be it. What exactly was gained by it? Nada. Again, I think it was a dumb decision, but I also think not sharing the same universe is kind of dumb and typical DC move.
Actually, other than the TV show (so far), I think Warner Bros and DC have been mishandling The Flash for years now. I've said my peace, and I think I'm done ranting about it.
This could be fun to speculate about: Outside of New Gods/Darkseid, which was well covered in the cartoons, what DC concept could unite/weave through the movies towards the first/second parts of the Justice League movie? Marvel has the Infinity Stones. What could DC use to connect? Who would be their "Nick Fury" or "Agent Coulson"? Not that I want them to use the same formula, but what part of the DC Legends could be mined for a shared universe?
Comments
I guess some of those complaints about Miller's dating pool section of Match.com means that Flash will be the same way. Funny how straight people can play gays, gays can play gays, but gays playing straight is unthinkable.
M
If anything, Agents of SHIELD is actually a reminder that it is the movies that have the most influence on what we imagine the shared universe to be. To the point that Marvel has (wisely) spun from the movies to the TV continuity.
And the 1960s movie is an example of a TV show popular enough to make a movie from the same show, for an audience that wanted the same Batman in the same style. That is also a very different prospect than assuming that people going to see the Zac Snyder Justice League movie want it to be just like the tone of the Flash TV show, you know what I mean?
My point is not that they *can't* pull it off. Rather, there is no gain in pulling it off, especially when there is precedent that they can have both Flashes at the same time.
Sure, there might be some hardcore Flash TV fans that may make noise online about it not being the Flash they want in the movies... but do you think they won't show up to see what they've been complaining about? And even if they did, would it be in numbers that would actually move the needle?
Does anyone think that angry Tom Welling fans hurt the opening weekend of Superman Returns?
I think DC does have more to gain than to lose. They would get the fans of the television show in the theaters, however few there are. Not simply because there are far more precedents of using the same casting in the film versions as the tv series than the opposite. Especially with the two entities being so close to one another. From Firefly to Serenity, From Star Trek to the Original Motion Picture, (and Next Generation) up to and including Twin Peaks, and even less popular shows such as Clueless, Sex & the City, and others used the same cast (mostly). The timing of the announcement issimply terrible marketing.
I realize that I'm just spitting in the wind here, but it appears that the guy cast as the movie Flash looks NOTHING like any iteration of the comics Flash I've ever seen. Build, appearance, hair, na da. With The Flash live-action show starring Grant Gustin, the star of one of the best pilots of the season, and The CW’s most-watched program ever, I suppose I shouldn't expect DC to be making wise decisions regarding their movie properties. Why on earth would DC try to duplicate anything Marvel is doing? Of course Marvel would never re-cast "Agent Coulson", so what this says to me, and many other fans of Arrow and The Flash, is that DC would certainly not think twice about it.
Further proving DC's odd decision-making, why would anyone think that it was a good idea to announce that they're casting a different actor in the Flash movie just as the tv show is beginning to fire up? Are we at episode 3 yet? What are the tv show fans supposed to think of that? Should they be applauding that announcement? What exactly is DC trying to accomplish with the announcement when there isn't even a script written and the tv show is becoming quite popular and entertaining new fans? Does the show not count? What message are they trying to convey?
Why not wait until a script, a director, and even see how well the other movies before it do before announcing the actor to be cast? We won't even know for sure who is playing Doctor Strange, or Captain Marvel, or the Inhumans. Does DC know who is starring in the Suicide Squad movie yet? Will they tell us next week? That film is slated for two years earlier than the Flash. I suppose the better question is what is the point or agenda DC has making such a premature announcement that seems to fly in the face of brand marketing on so very many levels? Oh yeah, I almost forgot... - further demonstrating how little DC cares little about what the fans want. Nevermind the rant. The diversity quota must be met at any cost. You will be made to "care"...
*yawn*
I'd also like to throw this out there because I see it all the time on fan websites; what's with this notion the studios/companies should give the fans what "they" want? First, that's subjective to the individual fan.
Second, what's the percentage of revenue for the movies is really based on people who read the source material? 30%? 40%? I'm betting it's less then 50%. That means the majority of your average moviegoer's don't get hung up on things like different actors from TV to movie. It also means, the studios can virtually do what they feel works best.
And the reality is, getting what they want or not, fans are more likely to see the movie then not.
M
I do think it's better to keep TV & movies separate. There's already fans complaining what the tone of the DCCU is looking to be & raving about the tone of the TV universe. If they're shared, one would have to change...and I think the movies are more revenue producing.
M
To instead try to please the existing fans of the older things, like the comics, or even a TV show that probably started its development years ago, and will be that many years older by the time these movies hit, is the tail wagging the dog.
Do we really think that people watching a Flash TV show or-- especially-- read Flash comics would actually need to be pandered to in order to get them to show up for a Justice League movie?
Even when you are using characters that have existed for decades, you should always make your own choices for the new thing you're making, rather than be afraid of what an existing fan base is attached to. Because that is why these characters are still around this much later- because they have changed and adapted.
And personally, as much as the filmmakers should cherry pick what they can from movies or TV, I don't see the value of them limiting themselves to the past choices of other storytellers.
An audience that is already watching a Flash TV show don't enter into it, because they can already be counted on to show up to these movies.
This is about growing an audience. And finding new audiences.
You don't do that by worrying about the hardcore fans that are already in hand.
And heck, even if Flash TV fans get up in arms and make noise, you know what that gets? Noise that make make people more aware there is a Flash TV show, and someday a Flash movie.
M
Brilliant. Not impressed.
I think they'll do fine. There have certainly been many examples of audiences being able to fit more than one actor into their lives, even playing the same character. Heck, I've met elementary school kids that know what a "reboot" is. So I don't know that the mainstream audience is as resistant to change as we might assume.
At the end of the day, it is actually not about impressing you. Or me.
That seems to be the hardest part for us long term fans of these characters to accept, as superheroes have gone from a subculture (comics) to pop culture (movies, video games, TV): it's not about us anymore. We're in the tank. We're going to show up to these movies, even if is just to have new things to grumble about online. But from a marketing point of view, it is not about us anymore.
@Matt, I take it by this response that you must think it was indeed a wise choice to announce this information within the same time-frame that the tv show has just launched with a new actor playing the Flash. You further must also feel that it would NOT have been wise to wait a bit or at least until a director was selected or a script written. After all, the movie is just around the corner... 2018.
Got it.
Unless it's an A-list actor, I really don't believe the average person paid no never mind to the announcement, if they heard it at all.
And there has been a writer & director announced; Chris Terrio & Zack Snyder. If Flash doesn't have a cameo in BvS:DoJ, he's certainly appearing in the Justice League movie in 2017.
M
Still waiting on that 2016 Suicide Squad movie cast press release...
M
M
At this point, DC will always be second-best because Marvel had a long-term plan and were dedicated to its implementation over several years. The strategy has paid-off dividends but this type of sustained success is impossible to maintain and Marvel's popularity will eventually falter when they exhaust their primary roster and audiences look for something new.
Is Batman V Superman "something new"?
The creatives each get to make their own Flash. The movies get to introduce him their own way without being beholden to TV continuity.
And, to add a new one, depending on the contracts of the key creatives or production companies/the network involved in the Flash TV show, bringing that actor and that suit into the movies might have financial implications on the money those movies make, and who gets what points on things.
(Doesn't Warner Brothers only own 50% of the CW? It could be that if the Flash movie could be seen as a big screen adaptation of a CW show then the CBS side of the CW gets a piece they wouldn't get if the movie Flash has a firewall between it and the TV adaptation).
All sensible reasons to me. Especially when stacked up against the gain of wooing a fan base from a TV show that may or may not be on the air still when these movies happen.
I think even if people are disappointed in Batman V Superman, and there is a big drop off after what will surely be an enormous opening, that they still could open Justice League big. Because they could just play up the huge size of it, and always make it seem like less of a Superman/Batman driven thing (or even go with a cut that really highlights other characters).
I think it would take both Batman V Superman and Justice League to be stinkers. But I don't expect that to happen.
Again, did Flash TV series seem to take any ratings hit because of the announcement? Any chance the success of the series couldve been a benefit for Miller cast as Flash?
M
With the details they had. And actors people had barely heard of two weeks ago are now getting attention, and their profile raised (for example, EW last week had a sidebar on the relative unknown cast to play Cyborg. From unknown to superhero franchise player and future lead-- this got them some press even before a director or writer is locked down).
2. It is not the film divisions job to make people watch the Flash TV show. It has to sink or swim on its own merits.
@Matt, whether or not the Flash show took a hit because of the announcement is beside the point. Did they announce the entire cast of JLA or Suicide Squad already and we missed it? Again, this steals publicity thunder from the tv series. There is no "gain" in doing that. Even some of the tv show actors were slightly put off by the announcement. If you and a few others here want to continue to presume it was a wise decision and those it bothered have no ground to stand on, so be it. What exactly was gained by it? Nada. Again, I think it was a dumb decision, but I also think not sharing the same universe is kind of dumb and typical DC move.
Actually, other than the TV show (so far), I think Warner Bros and DC have been mishandling The Flash for years now. I've said my peace, and I think I'm done ranting about it.
This could be fun to speculate about: Outside of New Gods/Darkseid, which was well covered in the cartoons, what DC concept could unite/weave through the movies towards the first/second parts of the Justice League movie? Marvel has the Infinity Stones. What could DC use to connect? Who would be their "Nick Fury" or "Agent Coulson"? Not that I want them to use the same formula, but what part of the DC Legends could be mined for a shared universe?