Hating on DC?

Matt

I just had to go on a sabbatical on another forum because the 'sorry sack' mentality became overwhelmingly draining. Especially when the people most vocal are doing the same things they complain about.

Apparently, more the 2/3rds of the posts on 'neutral' forums bash DC & especially the DCCU. The bashing extends to non-MCU Marvel movies. Does that sound inaccurate to anyone else? It's apparently even more if you eliminate the multiple posts by the same "MCU fanboys" & "honest" people who just didn't care for Man of Steel.

Is it trendy to hate DC or do these people just have an Eeyore mentality while hating the MCU?

M

Hex

Matt said:

Is it trendy to hate DC

I don't think this is far off. However, fanboys will be fanboys, and bitchin' & moanin' has always been a (unfortunate) part of the "culture" for as long as I can recall.

I don't hate DC.
Even though I have never been a DC guy, I had some pre-Nu52 books on my pull list, and I tried to like the Nu52... I picked up a lot in the beginning of the relaunch. But DC eventually forced me out by cancelling everything I was interested in. I tested the new titles they launched in the wake of the books that were axed, but they just weren't for me. Now I feel lost (and excluded from) with the odd DC book that I do pick up.

As far as the movies... the last few also haven't been my cup of tea. Marvel has set the bar high, and as far as I'm concerned DC has a long way to catch up.

DC's cartoons are awesome. no complaints there.

Matt

Hex said:

Matt said:

Is it trendy to hate DC

I don't think this is far off. However, fanboys will be fanboys, and bitchin' & moanin' has always been a (unfortunate) part of the "culture" for as long as I can recall.

I don't hate DC.
Even though I have never been a DC guy, I had some pre-Nu52 books on my pull list, and I tried to like the Nu52... I picked up a lot in the beginning of the relaunch. But DC eventually forced me out by cancelling everything I was interested in. I tested the new titles they launched in the wake of the books that were axed, but they just weren't for me. Now I feel lost (and excluded from) with the odd DC book that I do pick up.

As far as the movies... the last few also haven't been my cup of tea. Marvel has set the bar high, and as far as I'm concerned DC has a long way to catch up.

DC's cartoons are awesome. no complaints there.

But are you hating DC or just not patronizing the product? I'm not collecting any DC book, but I don't hate the company. The books aren't for me, though I was very happy with Man of Steel.

M

batlaw

Hate is a strong word but not terribly far off from my personal feelings at this time with dc. I would say I "hate" where dc is at, what they've done, where they're going and what they're doing (by and large) and that includes their cinematic endeavors and direction. Even their stuff that's "ok" or that could be decent is surrounded by enough junk that it's soiled and spoiled imo. The best dc product at the moment is their animated projects. And those have taken a huge drop in quality as well compared to their past output. Just my personal opinion of course. Marvel movies are kicking ass and keeping me going as a comic fan. But their books too are now turning me off like dc has. I'm a lifelong dc / marvel fan with a preference for dc. Again, just my own personal thoughts and opinion. If you enjoy the current trend and direction of dc et all, more power to you. For me, I have very very little good to say. Don't know if that's the fashionable stance to have, but it's mine. Wish it weren't.

Chuck_Melville

I don't hate DC... but I sure have been disappointed by them over the past few years.

RickM

I think the "DC hating" is probably, at its root level, just that: disappointment. People want the company that publishes Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Joker, Harley Quinn, Flash, Green Arrow, etc. to be more readable, coherent and satisfying. Instead, for the better part of a decade readers have been getting a ton of material that is not that.

As a fan of the Cleveland Browns, I know what its like to have a beloved institution let you down perpetually, with little end in sight. And so you vent about them, often.

phansford

The DC - Marvel debate is timeless. Personally, I don't know what the fuss is these days as both products are quite similar. Its not like the heyday's of Silver Age where the products were quite different. Marvel being character driven; DC being plot-driven. Marvel being very edgy in its approach to art and DC being quite stoic/traditional. Now we have star creators jumping companies and characters constantly. JRJR's work on Supes is no different then his work on Thor. (I dipped back into comics to read the first storyline of Supes by JRJR - I came to the quick conclusion I wasn't missing anything). To me its all quite comical.

And RickM….. sorry about your beloved Browns….. maybe the Indians will fare well this year. ;-)

WetRats

I don't think it's "trendy".

I think it's a direct result of the generally inferior product that is being flogged.

And I concur on the disappointment issue.

rebis

Hate is to strong, but there is a good deal of frustration and perhaps even anger. A company that has written stories for me for most of my life has said that they don't want me as a customer anymore.

WetRats

rebis said:

Hate is to strong, but there is a good deal of frustration and perhaps even anger. A company that has written stories for me for most of my life has said that they don't want me as a customer anymore.

Yep.

David_D

Re: @Matt From what you've said in the past about some of the other forums you drop in on, I wouldn't take their observations, or their percentages, *too* seriously. But I do think they are onto something that, at the moment when it comes to comics, DC as a brand is behind where Marvel is. And as @phansford said, there is a partisanship for some fans that you have to pick one or the other "side", as if that matters.

And these things can go in cycles, but I think at the moment DC is down and Marvel is up. In terms of the paper and digital they are selling. And, at least from how it looks inside the bubble, in terms of goodwill, and what we expect from their brand-- which is to say how much we expect a new #1 from them to be good.

I think 'hating on' a publisher, at least how I would define it. is being so mad at them that you are rooting for them to fail. That you take glee in one "side" or the other beating them in the charts. To me, that is where disappointment-- which I would defined as an informed experience of wanting something from them, and then over and over they aren't that-- to something more emotional, and more immature.

I think someone can love these characters, and have had a positive history with DC as a brand, be currently disappointed or left out of what they are doing, but they actually want them to start making the comics you want again. Or do things that you never knew you wanted but work for you in a new way. So then the upside for them and you is that they're now making the things you want to buy again. To, that's not hating. That is being disappointed. But you're ready to get back in when there's something for you again.

I think a 'hater' is someone who actually doesn't want them to get better. They would rather see the brand fail, and continue to fail, as if that means their tastes when they abandoned the brand have been validated by the market. That they were "right". And I think that happens. But I don't think that is happening in the numbers the people you saw talking about this suggest. I don't see that much. I mostly see disappointment from readers who would get back in if there was new work being made that was more for them.

I think the difference is that the disappointed reader is rooting for themselves-- they want to get more of what they want. The hater would actually rather have their negativity validated than get more of what they want from the publisher who could include them again.

phansford

rebis said:

A company that has written stories for me for most of my life has said that they don't want me as a customer anymore.

Well…… I'm not sure that's necessarily the case as much as we have moved out of the demographic. That's the case with a lot of "pop culture" HaHa. Music, Movies, TV. I found myself in my late forties reading ASM and knowing that I really had no connection to a young Peter Parker. I got old. Peter is forever 16-24 years old. HaHa

Edited- added: @David_D Well-stated.

David_D

And to go from the generalizations to the personal-- I was always a bigger Marvel reader than DC. Though there was a sort of golden age period for me of the mid-00s where I was reading a lot more DC than I ever had, and loved it. Was more excited about the DCU than the MU at the time (though was still reading a lot of Marvel-- no need to choose).

I've been a disappointed reader for years now, and I went from trying ever new title DC put out in the New 52 launch and the first few waves of additional titles... to very rarely giving one of their new books a try.

But I'm hopeful they will make more of what I like again. They way they have talked about whatever the post-Convergence period is called sounds cool. I'm game. The Bat Office seems to be a place where some of what looked like a house style is being shaken up. Maybe the audience that titles like Batgirl and Gotham Academy have been finding will give courage to other editors to take more chances.

But if I had gone from disappointed to a hater. If I made it some sort of a boycott or something, then there would be excellent things I would have missed. I am loving the current volume of Batman. Multiversity has been fantastic. The Azzarello/Chang Wonder Woman is the most Wonder Woman I've ever read. And I am really enjoying Gotham By Midnight. I've heard great things about Charles Soule's run on Swamp Thing, and will read that eventually.

So to me, that is the difference. I am wary of DC Comics as a brand right now. And I think that is a judgment informed by investigation. But if I got emotional about it, like it was something personal against me, then I would have cheated myself of books I have enjoyed.

TheOriginalGMan

I love the DC characters, but hate most of the current books.

CageNarleigh

Hate? No. I'll never hate the DC Universe. I have a love for these characters and the history that will never abate.

HOWEVER DC the COMPANY? Yeah. I'm not too fond of them right now. I like DC TV (iZombie, Flash, Arrow) and I assume I'll like more DC TV (Titans, Supergirl). But the rest of DC...

*sigh*

Look, I UNDERSTAND that the multimedia places these characters show up in make WAY more money than the comics they came from nowadays, but what is KILLING me is how DC is doing things. EVERYTHING is multimedia driven. And the comics are more editorial driven than creator driven.

And I DO get it guys. On some level, as a corporation that owns multi-BILLION dollar assets, you have to chase the big bucks...but I kinda thought....hoped, that the comics industry was at least SOMEWHAT immune to all of that. That we didn't have to sacrifice the HEART of these characters to make money.

In an ideal world I would've hoped DC would have ALWAYS remembered where they came from. That there once was a point where the only support their properties were getting were in the pages of the comics. And the only people reading comics were real fans who paid for a comic only if they truly loved the storytelling. And that DC would do more and more amazing and creative things to interest and excite us because they KNEW we'd love it.

These days it seems like the comics are an afterthought. Its all about events and reboots and darker and bolder and edgy and buzzfeed headline makers. I had HOPED that DC would see the pre-order numbers for their Convergence tie-in two issues and compare them to their other recent numbers and see the STAGGERING interest in the classic and "just for fun" stories of their old universe VS what they are doing now and change their tune. But they haven't. Which means either the numbers just aren't there....or they don't care.

And that's what it really comes down to for me personally.

I don't hate DC or their Universe. Its too big of a part of my fandom for that. But what I HATE is that I seem to love and care more for their universe...and the HEART of their universe...than they do.

And that's what kills me. Because I can lament about the downturn of quality storytelling in recent years and crave more compelling and inventive and FUN ideas...but it won't matter at all. Because what I want doesn't matter to DC. And I'm not sure I'll see that from DC again for a long time to come.

Defeatist I know, but it's how I feel.

Hex

David_D said:

But I'm hopeful they will make more of what I like again...

I am wary of DC Comics as a brand right now. And I think that is a judgment informed by investigation. But if I got emotional about it, like it was something personal against me, then I would have cheated myself of books I have enjoyed.

As always, David_D summaries it perfectly. This is my experience as well.

TheOriginalGMan said:

I love the DC characters, but hate most of the current books.

However, it is TheOriginalGMan who NAILS it.

I'm willing to give DC a chance to sell me a book (over and over again), but most often, it is not for me. Or it is for me, then a couple of months later DC takes it away from me.

I don't Hate DC. I WANT them to make awesome comics that I can love again. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that is going to happen anytime soon with the current state of the Nu52.

Still not enamoured with the recent films, but I DO love the Flash television show!

WetRats

CageNarleigh said:

I don't hate DC or their Universe. Its too big of a part of my fandom for that. But what I HATE is that I seem to love and care more for their universe...and the HEART of their universe...than they do.

Well-said!

Torchsong

phansford said:

rebis said:

A company that has written stories for me for most of my life has said that they don't want me as a customer anymore.

Well…… I'm not sure that's necessarily the case as much as we have moved out of the demographic.

And boom goes the dynamite. I wonder how much of "They don't want me as a customer anymore" is "I'm not their target customer anymore and that really steams my clams." I mean, it's a little telling, even for me, that my favorite books now don't involve capes and cowls. I'm looking for more than what either DC or Marvel is offering, or is in the business of offering, anymore.

But I understand that kind of frustration. I get that the New 52 isolated many of us and we felt that the DC we grew up with and loved was no longer "the DC we grew up with and loved". At the same time, I found a lot of New52 titles I really enjoyed as much as I didn't. I'm interested to see where the whole Convergence thing is going to lead, whether it's going to be a bone thrown to us old-school fans by bringing back the babies that brought us in, or a big flipping of said bone saying they're sticking to their guns on this one.

Hate is too strong a word for this. It's comics. I don't hate DC. Never will. They haven't betrayed my trust, raped my childhood, crushed my aspirations, etc...they're trying something different. Sometimes they're going to succeed. Sometimes they're going to blow it. Marvel does the same stuff. Kudos to them both for continuing to try, though.

WetRats

Torchsong said:

Hate is too strong a word for this. It's comics. I don't hate DC. Never will. They haven't betrayed my trust, raped my childhood, crushed my aspirations, etc...they're trying something different. Sometimes they're going to succeed. Sometimes they're going to blow it. Marvel does the same stuff. Kudos to them both for continuing to try, though.

Yep.

I admire the bravery of the New52 experiment, but I fell the execution was less than great.

Far less.

And I admire them for re-jiggering things with Convergence, but this time will wait to see what comes out of it. They no longer have the benefit of my doubt.

But hate? Hardly.

bralinator

Can you love the publisher while loathing the current flavor of their product?

TheOriginalGMan

Love the game, hate the playah.

bralinator

Precisely

JaxUr

If you like the old DCU you may want to check out :

http://firestormfan.com/tag/whos-who-podcast/

Lots of good pre-Crisis conversation!

CageNarleigh

JaxUr said:

If you like the old DCU you may want to check out :

http://firestormfan.com/tag/whos-who-podcast/

Lots of good pre-Crisis conversation!

Been listening to Shag and Rob since day one (and following their respective blogs before then). Good friends of mine and great people. Definitely a quality podcast.

phansford

Torchsong said:

And boom goes the dynamite. I wonder how much of "They don't want me as a customer anymore" is "I'm not their target customer anymore and that really steams my clams." I mean, it's a little telling, even for me, that my favorite books now don't involve capes and cowls.

HaHa… yeah. I was reading a lot more collected adventure strips (Terry & the Pirates) westerns, war, horror books and Graphic Novels (Eisner and Kubert) the last decade that I was collecting. I kept my collection of EC Reprints of Frontline, which I want to get bound. I still have my 25 volume set of Spirit Archives.

David_D

I'm still mad they cancelled Little Orphan Annie.

Greg

I don't hate DC. Just got my DC fill by watching Super Friends.

playdohsrepublic

David_D said:

I'm still mad they cancelled Little Orphan Annie.

On a cliffhanger no less! Had to read Dick Tracy just to get resolution. Ugh another intertitle crossover! When will these comic strips learn that people don't want to have to go three strips down to understand what's going on with their favorite characters!

(All joking aside, totally true)

rebis

WetRats said:

Torchsong said:

Hate is too strong a word for this. It's comics. I don't hate DC. Never will. They haven't betrayed my trust, raped my childhood, crushed my aspirations, etc...they're trying something different. Sometimes they're going to succeed. Sometimes they're going to blow it. Marvel does the same stuff. Kudos to them both for continuing to try, though.

Yep.

I admire the bravery of the New52 experiment, but I fell the execution was less than great.

Far less.

And I admire them for re-jiggering things with Convergence, but this time will wait to see what comes out of it. They no longer have the benefit of my doubt.

But hate? Hardly.

I can recall 3 or 4 times in the last 20 years where DC had positioned themselves in what I thought was a very cool place only to puss out. There was the push for legacy characters during the heyday of JLA/JSA and then after the various "Crisis" (Identity, Infinite, & Final).

I wonder if some of the dissatisfaction with Nu52 is that DC didn't go far enough with the changes? What they gave us was so similar to what preceded that it was to easy to make comparisons?

Torchsong

rebis said:

I wonder if some of the dissatisfaction with Nu52 is that DC didn't go far enough with the changes? What they gave us was so similar to what preceded that it was to easy to make comparisons?

For me personally it was "Too far on some, Not far enough on others".

Some heroes benefited greatly from the New 52 - Aquaman in particular, but Cyborg actually got interesting again. I enjoyed the New 52 take on Wonder Woman, and Bat-man, -woman, and -girl were all really solid reads, thanks to great teams on them.

Superman, though, suffered greatly in the New 52, and not just because the trunks weren't on the outside anymore. It just wasn't "Superman" anymore. His cousin was the same way. I bought her books out of devotion to the character, and I dug what they were trying to do with her, but it was really difficult to care about her.

The best books to me were the fringe titles like All-Star Western, Swamp Thing, Demon Knights, Stormwatch, etc...

WetRats

Torchsong said:

The best books to me were the fringe titles like All-Star Western, Swamp Thing, Demon Knights, Stormwatch, etc...

Yep.

Failed* experiments as far as sales went, but noble efforts.

*Doomed?