Saw the spoiler page on Bleeding Cool. I'm not reading the book but that's the kind of shocking ending you want to see in a comic. I mean, it's not what's going to stick. There is some alternate dimension, mind wiping, cloning, or alien invasion type stuff going on here...right? ;)
Politics aside, I fail to see the problem. It's literally the cliffhanger of the first issue of a story. There is nothing to indicate this is the new status quo. Especially in a world where time travel, brainwashing and alternate dimensions are a regular thing. I mean, the cosmic cube was involved in restoring steve. The same thing that created "Snap" Wilson, thug and pimp.
in a world where time travel, brainwashing and alternate dimensions are a regular thing. I mean, the cosmic cube was involved in restoring steve.
I'm a pretty severe Cap fan, and I feel like Nick's run has been the worst in years - and this is from a comic fan who is loving Nick's Superior Foes omnibus and The Fix. Sure this will probably not "stick," but neither did Cap-Wolf. The problem isn't that Cap is working for Hydra in this story, it's that Marvel is saying “Yup, he's always been an undercover member of Hydra, you just didn't know! Everything you thought you knew was wrong even though it doesn't make sense" - blah, blah, blah.
I'm a Cap fanboy and this is a repulsive turn to me. I'm beginning to believe Nick Spencer only writes non-serious bumbling characters well, not Captain America.
What is continuity in Marvel right now? Is everything pre Secret Wars still considered in play or did Secret Wars reset everything and now origins & history are open to revision/new interpretation?
I am not sure if I like this angle with Cap. It muddles every fight he ever had with Hydra. It does make me want to see where the story goes and pick up the book. So I guess that means it accomplished the goal since I have not read Cap since Brubaker left.
in a world where time travel, brainwashing and alternate dimensions are a regular thing. I mean, the cosmic cube was involved in restoring steve.
I'm a pretty severe Cap fan, and I feel like Nick's run has been the worst in years - and this is from a comic fan who is loving Nick's Superior Foes omnibus and The Fix. Sure this will probably not "stick," but neither did Cap-Wolf. The problem isn't that Cap is working for Hydra in this story, it's that Marvel is saying “Yup, he's always been an undercover member of Hydra, you just didn't know! Everything you thought you knew was wrong even though it doesn't make sense" - blah, blah, blah.
I'm a Cap fanboy and this is a repulsive turn to me. I'm beginning to believe Nick Spencer only writes non-serious bumbling characters well, not Captain America.
in a world where time travel, brainwashing and alternate dimensions are a regular thing. I mean, the cosmic cube was involved in restoring steve.
I'm a pretty severe Cap fan, and I feel like Nick's run has been the worst in years - and this is from a comic fan who is loving Nick's Superior Foes omnibus and The Fix. Sure this will probably not "stick," but neither did Cap-Wolf. The problem isn't that Cap is working for Hydra in this story, it's that Marvel is saying “Yup, he's always been an undercover member of Hydra, you just didn't know! Everything you thought you knew was wrong even though it doesn't make sense" - blah, blah, blah.
I'm a Cap fanboy and this is a repulsive turn to me. I'm beginning to believe Nick Spencer only writes non-serious bumbling characters well, not Captain America.
With that "revelation", doesn't the new suit remind you of a HYDRA suit?
I'm a Cap fanboy and this is a repulsive turn to me. I'm beginning to believe Nick Spencer only writes non-serious bumbling characters well, not Captain America.
All I can say is take a deep breath and go with it. It is a "Story" and this first issue is basically at the same point as "Once upon a time...". See how it plays out, before you freak out. After the story arc is all said and done, critique it objectively. Instead of falling for the hype about two words on the last panel.
I am going to keep my fingers crossed that it is a fun comic book twist and see how it all goes down. I seriously doubt that Marvel would throw Steve under the bus like that. Who really believes that Steve would be a Hydra agent after all these years? Don't be a Rube.
I've actually really enjoyed his Sam Wilson Cap quite a bit. It's been very in keeping with Sam's character. He isn't just black Steve Rogers, he has always had a specific point of view that wouldn't work if he put it aside when he became Cap. His run has felt the most like the Englehart era, which was by far my favorite Cap period.
As for this reveal? It's the first issue, not the last issue. It could end up being interesting for a while, like Superior Spider-Man sort of was.
For anyone who first believed this to be a temporary plot point that would soon be undone, revealing that Steve was being mind controlled or some other such nonsense. According to Marvel Vice President Tom Brevoort and Nick Spencer, this is the real deal, and we'd better get used to it.
Issue one lays the groundwork for the reveal with flashbacks to Steve's childhood and his first contact with an operative of Hydra. Does this mean it's been this way his whole life?
BREVOORT: Well, No. 2 rolls back the clock a little bit to further illuminate where Steve's head is at and how he got this way. And from there, the story will get larger over the course of time than you probably imagine that it can.
SPENCER: Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.
Rick Remender, who was the previous writer on Captain America, had been building towards this story of Hydra having infiltrated various institutions of government and various super teams. I thought that sounded like too big of a story. I drilled it down and thought, what if there's just one very valuable Hydra plant? What if they're looking for 100 people, but there's just one? So I started asking, who's the worst person it could possibly be? It was really obvious straight away that there's nobody who could do more damage and nobody that could be a more valuable Hydra plant than Steve Rogers. That was really the genesis. It sprang pretty organically from story ideas that were already on the table.
Of course it "sprang organically". So I guess Captain America has been eeeeeeevil for his entire life. Surely, the Marvel Universe will never be the same after this... well, until like a year or two from now when they undo all of this with some new universe-altering super-mega-crossover event that they claim they had planned all along. As for this being the new status quo, you can probably presume it will last for quite a while. I'm still waiting on some clever writer at Marvel to figure out what Nick Fury whispered to Thor two years ago in Original Sin.
Punisher #1 from Cloonan and Dillon was great. I knew of Cloonan but had not read much (or any?) of her writing before, and I have always loved Dillon, and loved him on Punisher. So it was a homecoming to see him doing it again.
As the large content warning on the cover says, it is not for kids, or for those that are not interested in something this dark. But I think for longtime Punisher fans, or those who may have just discovered him on the Netflix show, I think they will find a Punisher that they recognize. A solid start.
Then again, this IS comic books, so who knows what final page reveals actually mean or how long-lasting the repercussions are, but after blaming Hydra recruitment on high-unemployment, Spencer has proven he isn't beyond using Cap to play politics. We'll see.
Thank goodness no one is the past did that.
Well, except Mark Gruenwald and his stories about The Captain and Ronald Reagan. And Ed Brubaker and his stories about the Tea Party. Or Steve Gerber in his brief run. And Steve Englehart making the sitting president of the US a the head of a criminal conspiracy. And Jack Kirby's metaphor of the Madbomb about how people pining for the "Good old days" are attempting to spread their crazy beliefs. Or...
Or, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon showing Nazis to be villains during a time when they were supported by most business leaders because they were opposed to Communism.
Captain America has ALWAYS been a vehicle for creators to talk about what they feel America should be and the villains are taken from the symbolic forces they feel are bad for America, from The Red Skull to Crossbones (who stood for America's use of amoral mercenaries under Brubaker).
"Killing Captain America was really a more compelling story for our readers," said Dan Buckley, publisher at Marvel Entertainment. "It was more interesting than to see Cap in jail, reflecting. Besides exploring the question of who killed Captain America, we will be focusing on who was Steve Rogers the character, since not much really known about him.
"We know about Captain America, the hero, the icon, but we don't know much about Steve. We will be exploring what Steve Rogers meant to those close to him and on a macro level, what Captain America's death means to the Marvel Universe. We'll be exploring what Captain America the icon means and whether the legacy should be carried on," Buckley said.
Buckley also said there are no plans to resurrect Captain America
"Killing Captain America was really a more compelling story for our readers," said Dan Buckley, publisher at Marvel Entertainment. "It was more interesting than to see Cap in jail, reflecting. Besides exploring the question of who killed Captain America, we will be focusing on who was Steve Rogers the character, since not much really known about him.
"We know about Captain America, the hero, the icon, but we don't know much about Steve. We will be exploring what Steve Rogers meant to those close to him and on a macro level, what Captain America's death means to the Marvel Universe. We'll be exploring what Captain America the icon means and whether the legacy should be carried on," Buckley said.
Buckley also said there are no plans to resurrect Captain America
Thanks. Now I know when MY Captain America actually died. This Spencer version is merely an imposter.
And as to the political points of your previous post, I wonder why comic book writers never use Captain America as a vehicle to impugn liberal politics? Oh wait, maybe the original creators did.
"Killing Captain America was really a more compelling story for our readers," said Dan Buckley, publisher at Marvel Entertainment. "It was more interesting than to see Cap in jail, reflecting. Besides exploring the question of who killed Captain America, we will be focusing on who was Steve Rogers the character, since not much really known about him.
"We know about Captain America, the hero, the icon, but we don't know much about Steve. We will be exploring what Steve Rogers meant to those close to him and on a macro level, what Captain America's death means to the Marvel Universe. We'll be exploring what Captain America the icon means and whether the legacy should be carried on," Buckley said.
Buckley also said there are no plans to resurrect Captain America
Thanks. Now I know when MY Captain America actually died. This Spencer version is merely an imposter.
And as to the political points of your previous post, I wonder why comic book writers never use Captain America as a vehicle to impugn liberal politics? Oh wait, maybe the original creators did.
You will never find a more classic "New Deal" liberal creator than Jack Kirby...to the point where he said in numerous interviews that Darkseid was based on Richard Nixon, Glorious Godfrey was based on Billy Graham, Apokolypse is where the world is heading under the polluting corporations and his work on Destroyer Duck should tell you what he thought of the 80's Business/Political climate.
Never mind that the Forever People was a love letter to hippies.
So, you'll find nothing to support the original creators impugning liberalism.
You are making the mistake of thinking a story is a permanent change.
I don't think I've ever stated that I thought this would be permanent, but you can be forgiven for missing that in the abundance of words I've typed about it ad nauseam. Cap Wolf wasn't permanent either, but I still hated it and checked out on it. Some runs I love, others I don't. Gonna check out on this. My opinion hasn't changed.
This offended me almost as much as Ultimatum Blob dining on Janet Pym.
So, you'll find nothing to support the original creators impugning liberalism.
That's right, it was Ditko who was Libertarian. Not Kirby.
Kirby only had a problem with FDR's policies towards Hitler.
So do you suppose Kirby would approve of the Nazi Captain America then?
Well, he was alive in 1979 when Marvel published this. Anyone know if he spoke against the idea back then?
Kirby never spoke in public about other people's work on his characters, and Evanier recently said that 90% of the time he didn't read it either. In the new JKCollector, there's a Kirby interview where he was asked about Staranko's Cap and he said basically, "That's the story he's telling and good luck to him."
By the way, slight point of order on that story, it wasn't Steve Rodgers, but an imposter in a propaganda film, using the actual Captain America serial from the 40's as a plot point.
So, you'll find nothing to support the original creators impugning liberalism.
That's right, it was Ditko who was Libertarian. Not Kirby.
Kirby only had a problem with FDR's policies towards Hitler.
So do you suppose Kirby would approve of the Nazi Captain America then?
Well, he was alive in 1979 when Marvel published this. Anyone know if he spoke against the idea back then?
Kirby never spoke in public about other people's work on his characters, and Evanier recently said that 90% of the time he didn't read it either. In the new JKCollector, there's a Kirby interview where he was asked about Staranko's Cap and he said basically, "That's the story he's telling and good luck to him."
By the way, slight point of order on that story, it wasn't Steve Rodgers, but an imposter in a propaganda film, using the actual Captain America serial from the 40's as a plot point.
So, you'll find nothing to support the original creators impugning liberalism.
That's right, it was Ditko who was Libertarian. Not Kirby.
Kirby only had a problem with FDR's policies towards Hitler.
So do you suppose Kirby would approve of the Nazi Captain America then?
Well, he was alive in 1979 when Marvel published this. Anyone know if he spoke against the idea back then?
Kirby never spoke in public about other people's work on his characters, and Evanier recently said that 90% of the time he didn't read it either. In the new JKCollector, there's a Kirby interview where he was asked about Staranko's Cap and he said basically, "That's the story he's telling and good luck to him."
By the way, slight point of order on that story, it wasn't Steve Rodgers, but an imposter in a propaganda film, using the actual Captain America serial from the 40's as a plot point.
Knowledgeable, as always.
We are dialoguing with a Kirby disciple after all. Best Solitaire Rose podcast episodes imo.
Anyone following Civil War II in single issues? The following was recently brought to my attention. Issue #2 was solicited this way:
CIVIL WAR II #2 (OF 7) 40 PGS./Rated T+ $4.99
But the 40 pages is not actually 40 story pages. The 40 includes ads, recap pages, etc. So it actually has 22 story pages for $4.99. Even most of the tie-ins, like 'Choosing Sides' are $5 each. And then in 2 months we begin 'Divided We Stand' for the next event.
I can't imagine this is sustainable for very long.
Well, Tony Stark is handing his namesake, the mantle of Iron Man, and what is probably the most powerful weapons system on this planet to a relative unknown, a 15-year old MIT student. But Marvel sure likes those press releases, and let's face it they can always use another reason for another #1 issue relaunch. Right?
I actually don't care much about this news because I'm not reading Iron Man, much less any of the new Marvel titles, but I thought comic fans here might like to know. Something else to celebrate, analyze, criticize, or complain about.
So to re-cap; Captain America is either the former Falcon or he's Hydra, Hulk is Chulk, Thor isn't Thor, Wolverine too, and now - here's Iron Man (or shouldn't it be Iron Woman or is Riri transitioning?)
So to re-cap; Captain America is either the former Falcon or he's Hydra, Hulk is Chulk, Thor isn't Thor, Wolverine too, and now - here's Iron Man (or shouldn't it be Iron Woman or is Riri transitioning?)
What if... Marvel is finally developing the sense of legacy that DC has owned for decades—the thing that really has made DC seem “special”—and which Marvel has never really had. Regardless of what their current intentions or motives may be, this could lead to some great storytelling opportunities down the road.
Well, Tony Stark is handing his namesake, the mantle of Iron Man, and what is probably the most powerful weapons system on this planet to a relative unknown, a 15-year old MIT student. But Marvel sure likes those press releases, and let's face it they can always use another reason for another #1 issue relaunch. Right?
I actually don't care much about this news because I'm not reading Iron Man, much less any of the new Marvel titles...
I am reading Iron Man. I'm not sure how the story is getting described in the stories about it today, but so far from the actual stories the character has been in, Stark has not handed over anything to her yet. She was inspired by Iron Man to build her own suit, and, at least so far, has not decided on a name or pronoun for herself yet. And Stark has not decided to turn anything over.
And if Stark decides to hand things over to her, there is a story currently being told that builds up to that decision. Just like all the other times Stark has handed the armor over to others. Or others have take it up when he has been absent or incapacitated.
Comments
I'm a Cap fanboy and this is a repulsive turn to me. I'm beginning to believe Nick Spencer only writes non-serious bumbling characters well, not Captain America.
I am not sure if I like this angle with Cap. It muddles every fight he ever had with Hydra. It does make me want to see where the story goes and pick up the book. So I guess that means it accomplished the goal since I have not read Cap since Brubaker left.
M
See how it plays out, before you freak out. After the story arc is all said and done, critique it objectively. Instead of falling for the hype about two words on the last panel.
I am going to keep my fingers crossed that it is a fun comic book twist and see how it all goes down. I seriously doubt that Marvel would throw Steve under the bus like that. Who really believes that Steve would be a Hydra agent after all these years? Don't be a Rube.
As for this reveal? It's the first issue, not the last issue. It could end up being interesting for a while, like Superior Spider-Man sort of was.
From today's EW Of course it "sprang organically". So I guess Captain America has been eeeeeeevil for his entire life. Surely, the Marvel Universe will never be the same after this... well, until like a year or two from now when they undo all of this with some new universe-altering super-mega-crossover event that they claim they had planned all along. As for this being the new status quo, you can probably presume it will last for quite a while. I'm still waiting on some clever writer at Marvel to figure out what Nick Fury whispered to Thor two years ago in Original Sin.
So long, Nick Spencer Cap. I hardly knew ya.
As the large content warning on the cover says, it is not for kids, or for those that are not interested in something this dark. But I think for longtime Punisher fans, or those who may have just discovered him on the Netflix show, I think they will find a Punisher that they recognize. A solid start.
Well, except Mark Gruenwald and his stories about The Captain and Ronald Reagan. And Ed Brubaker and his stories about the Tea Party. Or Steve Gerber in his brief run. And Steve Englehart making the sitting president of the US a the head of a criminal conspiracy. And Jack Kirby's metaphor of the Madbomb about how people pining for the "Good old days" are attempting to spread their crazy beliefs. Or...
Or, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon showing Nazis to be villains during a time when they were supported by most business leaders because they were opposed to Communism.
Captain America has ALWAYS been a vehicle for creators to talk about what they feel America should be and the villains are taken from the symbolic forces they feel are bad for America, from The Red Skull to Crossbones (who stood for America's use of amoral mercenaries under Brubaker).
"Killing Captain America was really a more compelling story for our readers," said Dan Buckley, publisher at Marvel Entertainment. "It was more interesting than to see Cap in jail, reflecting. Besides exploring the question of who killed Captain America, we will be focusing on who was Steve Rogers the character, since not much really known about him.
"We know about Captain America, the hero, the icon, but we don't know much about Steve. We will be exploring what Steve Rogers meant to those close to him and on a macro level, what Captain America's death means to the Marvel Universe. We'll be exploring what Captain America the icon means and whether the legacy should be carried on," Buckley said.
Buckley also said there are no plans to resurrect Captain America
And as to the political points of your previous post, I wonder why comic book writers never use Captain America as a vehicle to impugn liberal politics? Oh wait, maybe the original creators did.
Never mind that the Forever People was a love letter to hippies.
So, you'll find nothing to support the original creators impugning liberalism.
Kirby only had a problem with FDR's policies towards Hitler.
So do you suppose Kirby would approve of the Nazi Captain America then?
He had no problem drawing a story with that as the plot point.
You are making the mistake of thinking a story is a permanent change.
An image from that story. Drawn by Kirby himself.
By those standards, the last page of the most recent issue seems pretty tame by comparison.
This offended me almost as much as Ultimatum Blob dining on Janet Pym.
By the way, slight point of order on that story, it wasn't Steve Rodgers, but an imposter in a propaganda film, using the actual Captain America serial from the 40's as a plot point.
CIVIL WAR II #2 (OF 7)
40 PGS./Rated T+ $4.99
But the 40 pages is not actually 40 story pages. The 40 includes ads, recap pages, etc. So it actually has 22 story pages for $4.99. Even most of the tie-ins, like 'Choosing Sides' are $5 each. And then in 2 months we begin 'Divided We Stand' for the next event.
I can't imagine this is sustainable for very long.
I actually don't care much about this news because I'm not reading Iron Man, much less any of the new Marvel titles, but I thought comic fans here might like to know. Something else to celebrate, analyze, criticize, or complain about.
Full story: http://time.com/4394478/iron-man-riri-williams-tony-stark/
So to re-cap; Captain America is either the former Falcon or he's Hydra, Hulk is Chulk, Thor isn't Thor, Wolverine too, and now - here's Iron Man (or shouldn't it be Iron Woman or is Riri transitioning?)
;)
Just some food for thought.
And if Stark decides to hand things over to her, there is a story currently being told that builds up to that decision. Just like all the other times Stark has handed the armor over to others. Or others have take it up when he has been absent or incapacitated.
Because, stories.