Episode 1600 Talkback - Comic Talk

Adam_Murdough

We're going for a perfect score in this milestone episode, by doing what we do best: Comic Talk! Included in this packet are the following materials: Goodies from the CGS Mailbag! A Top 5 follow-up! The return of Muddle the Murd! Reactions to each and every announcement from the DC Rebirth panel at Wonder Con 2016! Some spoiler-free thoughts on Season 2 of the Daredevil Netflix series! And a SPOILER-HEAVY group response to Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice! Pick up your iPods; you may begin listening... NOW! (2:21:11)

Listen here.

JaceTheComicSource

Just started listening but had to write in right away. The negative reactions of Chris and especially Dani to the DC Rebirth announcements makes me sad. This podcast, especially in the early days was really a celebration of comics. If something was bad or negative it wasn't praised despite that but it also wasn't called out with what seems like such vitriol. Of course these two are entitled to their opinions and I don't begrudge them that. Still hearing them bad mouth DC WITHOUT even reading any of these books just smacks of mindless internet hate. Does Dani even like comic books? To hear her talk about them on the show I would say no. She seems very much not to care and said as much about DC & Marvel at this point. So ironic to hear her talk about the negativity in social media. Pot meet Kettle. The statement that stopped me in my tracks and led me to writing this response immediately though was Chris saying that DC and Dan Didio and Jim Lee specifically just don't care and are only in it for the money. Yes they made mistakes, this is them admitting as much. The New 52 did get rid of the legacy and history of their characters. This is them trying to put it right. I promise they aren't trying to put out bad books or destroy their characters. If there was anything I took away from being in the room at Wonder Con and speaking with nearly all of the creative people afterwards, including Dan and Jim, it is that they care very much. They have been working long and hard on this initiative. I too am tired of the constant reboots and restarts, but if it means getting it right then so be it. This isn't a reboot or a relaunch however, it also bothers me that Chris can't be bothered to even educate himself about what this event is. I imagine from the outside looking in it can seem like they are throwing away continuity and restarting their universe again, but this is actually the opposite of that. It is an in continuity story that will explain why EVERYTHING counts that has come before. How exactly that will work? I am not sure. Will it all be good? No, of course not. What I can say it is that DC cares and I will argue that with anyone who thinks otherwise. I still like this show and look forward to each episode, but I fear that may change if the negativity I feel from listening persists.

David_D

1600 episodes.

(And of course, those are just the numbered ones).

Wow. That is commitment. Congratulations CGS! Onward!

bralinator

1600 episodes!?! (Slow clap)

JaceTheComicSource said:

What I can say it is that DC cares and I will argue that with anyone who thinks otherwise..

Chris and Dani are obviously entitled to their opinions. And unfortunately DC has earned the disappointment that many comic fans feel. It is on DC to repair what's been damaged. Convergence did not deliver. Hopefully this event will be different, but with all the recent missteps, I don't have much hope for it. The same guys are still in charge that have been dropping the ball for years...

We'll see.

hauberk

bralinator said:

1600 episodes!?! (Slow clap)

JaceTheComicSource said:

What I can say it is that DC cares and I will argue that with anyone who thinks otherwise..

Chris and Dani are obviously entitled to their opinions. And unfortunately DC has earned the disappointment that many comic fans feel. It is on DC to repair what's been damaged. Convergence did not deliver. Hopefully this event will be different, but with all the recent missteps, I don't have much hope for it. The same guys are still in charge that have been dropping the ball for years...

We'll see.

The point is that one of the great things about CGS was the oft stated keep it positive attitude. I've not listened to the episode yet, but there's definitely been a more cynical streak recently. Largely, that's been aligned with the DC changes, but I don't think that it's been exclusive to DC.

mwhitt80

CGS @ 1600
This calls for a top 5 comic presidents

5) Richard Nixon ( from Captain America)

4) Ronald Reagan (from Dark Knight Returns)

3) Gary "The Smiler" Callahan (from Transmetropolitan)

2) Norman Osborne ( from Earth X)

1) Lex Luther - Lex gets the number one spot for his tenure as the hologram President Rick Rikard (DK:Strikes Again), and the time spent as DC's actual president

bralinator

hauberk said:

=I've not listened to the episode yet, but there's definitely been a more cynical streak recently.

I agree with this to a point, but the industry has earned and nurtured the cynicism. And it's called "comic talk" not "comic cheerleading," right? I'm one comic fan that doesn't think DC deserves a 'participation trophy' just for trying another reboot/rework/rebirth, especially following the failure of Convergence. That said, I don't think the geeks were nearly as vicious as Jace's knee-jerk post may have implied - but your mileage may vary. No offense meant, but I think @JaceTheComicSource even admits he hadn't listened to the entire episode before posting.

About 40 minutes in, the geeks went through the solicits for #Rebirth and it didn't sound like they were being negative at all. Perhaps listening to the episode in full before commenting would be a wise choice, maybe even taking the time to process it before offering your own negative feedback (this is directed not at you specifically, just a general suggestion to all).

I for one welcome Chris's raw take on the state of comics and entertainment and I appreciate all of their opinions whether I agree with them or not. I'm personally not going to be invested in an all-glowing comics review podcast. Nor am I interested in quelling the varied opinions simply because I don't agree with them. I tend to enjoy @wildpigcomics take more or less because of his retailer experience, though I grow weary of his effusive praise for Saga at times. I don't mind that we often disagree.

“I have never in my life learned anything from anyone who always agreed with me.” — Dudley Field Malone

hauberk

bralinator said:

hauberk said:

=I've not listened to the episode yet, but there's definitely been a more cynical streak recently.

I agree with this to a point, but the industry has earned and nurtured the cynicism. And it's called "comic talk" not "comic cheerleading," right? I'm one comic fan that doesn't think DC deserves a 'participation trophy' just for trying another reboot/rework/rebirth, especially following the failure of Convergence.

I think that there's a difference between actively slagging and just bypassing it completely. One can keep a positive tone by simply omitting mention of the negative. If one keeps the topic on what one is enjoying, it becomes pretty clear, by omission what one is either not enjoying or not drawn toward. That's hardly a participation trophy.

That said, there's definitely an attaboy earned for recognizing that something isn't working and trying to fix it.

JaceTheComicSource

bralinator said:

About 40 minutes in, the geeks went through the solicits for #Rebirth and it didn't sound like they were being negative at all. Perhaps listening to the episode in full before commenting would be a wise choice, maybe even taking the time to process it before offering your own negative feedback (this is directed not at you specifically, just a general suggestion to all).

I don't expect "comic cheerleading", The geeks have always been honest in their reviews and have stated often, sometimes famously, when they didn't like something. Part of the reason I became a fan of Comic Geek Speak was because their love of comics was so obvious. Sadly that doesn't seem to be so obvious anymore. The difference being they actually read the material before offering condemnation. Except for Saga apparently, as you stated, and which I have more than grown tired of hearing Chris praise. It is true that perhaps I should have listened to the whole episode before posting. Though I did appreciate Chris acknowledging that he was too negative in his initial statement. I also stated that they are very much entitled to their opinions. I just wish that everyone would try to be a little more open-minded. Also I am just so very, very tired of the constant DC bashing that I hear from so many so-called comic fans. Marvel makes many of the same mistakes and gets a pass. Recently that seems to be changing as it appears Marvel may have finally exhausted the good will they have built up over the years with yet more 1's and thousands of variants and reprints. It may be time for me to step away from places where such negativity for DC is so prevalent. Time will tell.

bralinator

hauberk said:

I think that there's a difference between actively slagging and just bypassing it completely. One can keep a positive tone by simply omitting mention of the negative. If one keeps the topic on what one is enjoying, it becomes pretty clear, by omission what one is either not enjoying or not drawn toward. That's hardly a participation trophy.

That said, there's definitely an attaboy earned for recognizing that something isn't working and trying to fix it.

As for giving DC an "attaboy" I would have much more confidence if they had a change in leadership, but this is still the same crew that shipwrecked the SS Convergence. So there's that.

Fact is that DC just released their biggest movie and is embarking on another big event / reboot / something special. I want the opinions of the geeks on what thy predict the outcome will be or what their take is on it. I prefer not to have to make conclusions by a lack of response. If their take is negative, I still welcome it. Many of the geeks have poo-pood books I enjoyed and heralded books I thought sucked, quite frankly. It doesn't bother me. I enjoy, acknowledge, and welcome the discussion.

bralinator

JaceTheComicSource said:

=Also I am just so very, very tired of the constant DC bashing that I hear from so many so-called comic fans. Marvel makes many of the same mistakes and gets a pass. Recently that seems to be changing as it appears Marvel may have finally exhausted the good will they have built up over the years with yet more 1's and thousands of variants and reprints. It may be time for me to step away from places where such negativity for DC is so prevalent. Time will tell.

I get it. You're a die-hard DC guy and it bugs you when one of your favorite podcasts apparently has a team member or two piling on your favorite publisher. It's an understandable reaction, but again, CGS shouldn't become a "safe space" for fans.

i_am_scifi

hauberk said:

bralinator said:

1600 episodes!?! (Slow clap)

JaceTheComicSource said:

What I can say it is that DC cares and I will argue that with anyone who thinks otherwise..

Chris and Dani are obviously entitled to their opinions. And unfortunately DC has earned the disappointment that many comic fans feel. It is on DC to repair what's been damaged. Convergence did not deliver. Hopefully this event will be different, but with all the recent missteps, I don't have much hope for it. The same guys are still in charge that have been dropping the ball for years...

We'll see.

The point is that one of the great things about CGS was the oft stated keep it positive attitude. I've not listened to the episode yet, but there's definitely been a more cynical streak recently. Largely, that's been aligned with the DC changes, but I don't think that it's been exclusive to DC.

One of the things I appreciate most about CGS is the show's honesty. Brutal, brutal honesty. When they love something, you'll get a BUY BUY BUY! When they don't, no punches will be pulled. And it is quite apparent that New 52 has not really worked with the bulk of the crew. I'd much rather hear their true feelings about Rebirth than false enthusiasm. For those who were burned by DC Comics over the past few years, Rebirth has to re-earn the trust that was lost in New 52. Hopefully it will do just that, and you'll be hearing the positive from @wildpigcomics, Dani, and the rest.

nweathington

JaceTheComicSource said:

Does Dani even like comic books? To hear her talk about them on the show I would say no. She seems very much not to care and said as much about DC & Marvel at this point.

Besides her mentioning how much she loves Batgirl and Birds of Prey, she was the only person on the show who's read anything by Hope Larson. And that's why I like her being on the show, because she reads a lot of books (many of which I enjoy myself) that the rest of the geeks ignore. There's more to comics than DC and Marvel.

luckymustard

What I heard (I'm 54 minutes in so far - more "hate" talk coming?): Pants did ask Chris and Dani their opinions.

And my own take about Rebirth: I'm interested in this whole idea, as Green Lantern Rebirth, and Johns' whole run through GL and into Blackest Night was great. Flash Rebirth was pretty good. This Rebirth is aimed at doing the same thing, but linewide.
I like that some of the books are going to two a month. I never understood it when Marvel fans complained when Marvel did it... If it's something I enjoy, then I'll gladly take more of it. If it's not something I enjoy, then I don't care how many books they do of it per month.
I'll continue with collecting (and get back to reading) Batman and Detective. Wonder Woman definitely has me interested, as does Action Comics. That's just June. Into the later months... Nightwing, All-Star Batman, Deathstroke, Trinity, and Blue Beetle all have me interested.

Per the digital version of DC's section of Previews, not only is Justice League not ending prior to this, but neither is Cyborg, Constantine, JLA, Earth 2: Society, Deathstroke, Doctor Fate, Red Hood/Arsenal, Harely Quinn, Batman Beyond, Robin, and a few other odds and ends it seems... per Bleeding Cool.

Dani

I'll be the first to admit I've been negative on comics lately. I've been worried that every time I'm on an episode I've come across as negative or meh on most topics.

I've loved comics for over 20 years. My first job was at a comic shop. I'm married to a guy who runs a comic shop. I technically met him because of comics. Comics have been a huge part of my life for a long time.

My negativity comes from being so frustrated with comics lately. That's what I was trying to convey. I miss being excited by comics. I love the titles I'm reading, but I do find the rebooting and renumbering and big crossovers tiresome at this point, with both companies. It's hard to keep track of everything going on.

I went on record saying I cried when I read the first issue of Batgirl with the new creative team. It was the first time it felt like a big 2 book was being marketed to me. Marvel is doing amazing things with Ms Marvel and Unbeatable Squirrel Girl. Those books excite me. I've got a pile of trades that I'm ready to devour when I recoup from my Septoplasty surgery this week.

I might not care about Rebirth, but I do hope it works out. I really do. I don't want it to fail. I hope it's fantastic and gets back the readers it lost. Because if it does, it'll be a win for all of comics.

Brack

Always remember: Convergence was just something to cover the period when DC were moving offices. It didn't fail - they did indeed have books out while they were moving offices. Mission Complete!

David_D

For a discussion that supposedly had such vitriol, not a single person in the conversation didn't have upcoming DC books that they plan on reading, and talked about being excited about or will definitely give a chance to. If that's vitriol, well, maybe I run with a bad crowd, but I've heard a lot worse.

And the discussion about why they might be hesitant to try as much Rebirth as they did New 52 was asked for, answered specifically, and even bemoaned by the individuals as wishing they felt less negative or less cynical than they did.

What I always want in CGS is honesty and specificity. I feel both are present in this conversation.

Also, there is a big difference between being hesitant about the second DC reboot in five years (even though, with that caution comes a lot of enthusiasm around specific announcements) . . . and the charge that this is not a show celebrating comics as a whole.

That's my take from what I hear in this episode. I heard the honesty, specificity, and a range of opinions. It is no different than what I have heard and have come to expect from CGS for more than 10 years now.

Mr_Cosmic

I appreciate the honesty. If it wasn't there I'd drop this show in a heartbeat. I don't need "cheer leading" or omission of topics in an attempt to keep things from being negative. Others will always have opinions you don't like..something people usually learn by the time they're adults.

fredzilla

I got that collected Star Wars graphic novel in my March DCBS shipment and I can attest to its gorgeousness.

bralinator

fredzilla said:

I got that collected Star Wars graphic novel in my March DCBS shipment and I can attest to its gorgeousness.

Who was the publisher?

bralinator

Love Murd's apt recognition of Doomsday being a metaphor for the BvS movie. I doubt the director did it intentionally, which makes @Adam_Murdough that much cleverer than Mr. Snyder, although I don't think that qualifies as much of an achievement, sorry Adam :)

DarthDelRio

I haven't listened to this episode yet so I can't comment on what was or wasn't said but I have been an avid listener for about 7 years.This show has become so much more negative and hateful about comics over the last year that it stopped being fun to listen to I'm hoping Pants coming back will add the fun and humor to the show that made it great for so many years. If you don't like a book you've read that's fine and good and it creates good debate to say this is what I liked and this isn't what I liked I think Murd is a master at breaking down and critiquing a book and providing a good logical analysis and sometimes I totally disagree with him but its good to hear the other opinion. What isn't fun is hearing a host go on a rant for 20 minutes about how a book was complete garbage and the creative team didn't care what they produced. As a listener it comes off as very arrogant and disrespectful to claim to know what is in the hearts and minds of creators and what went into the work they do.

fredzilla

bralinator said:

fredzilla said:

I got that collected Star Wars graphic novel in my March DCBS shipment and I can attest to its gorgeousness.

Who was the publisher?

Amazon lists the publisher as Disney Lucasfilm Press. List price is $19.99 for the hardcover, but Amazon price is a little over $12 (208 pages). Check out some of the (IMO - Don Bluth-esque) interior art below!

fredzilla

Whoever did the lettering and decided that R2's voice should look like that is pure genius.

With regard to the all the Netflix talk... welcome to 2010 y'all! ;)

hauberk

i_am_scifi said:

hauberk said:

bralinator said:

1600 episodes!?! (Slow clap)

JaceTheComicSource said:

What I can say it is that DC cares and I will argue that with anyone who thinks otherwise..

Chris and Dani are obviously entitled to their opinions. And unfortunately DC has earned the disappointment that many comic fans feel. It is on DC to repair what's been damaged. Convergence did not deliver. Hopefully this event will be different, but with all the recent missteps, I don't have much hope for it. The same guys are still in charge that have been dropping the ball for years...

We'll see.

The point is that one of the great things about CGS was the oft stated keep it positive attitude. I've not listened to the episode yet, but there's definitely been a more cynical streak recently. Largely, that's been aligned with the DC changes, but I don't think that it's been exclusive to DC.

One of the things I appreciate most about CGS is the show's honesty. Brutal, brutal honesty. When they love something, you'll get a BUY BUY BUY! When they don't, no punches will be pulled. And it is quite apparent that New 52 has not really worked with the bulk of the crew. I'd much rather hear their true feelings about Rebirth than false enthusiasm. For those who were burned by DC Comics over the past few years, Rebirth has to re-earn the trust that was lost in New 52. Hopefully it will do just that, and you'll be hearing the positive from @wildpigcomics, Dani, and the rest.

I don't think anoyone asked for false enthusiasm. However, I'm not sure, short of canning the entire senior staff, many people are willing to even take a wait and see approach which, for what it's worth to get me to pick up another Marvel book (even before Perlmuter got out his checkbook). It's not out yet, no one really knows what it is and, at the end of the day, it's easily as newsworthy (for good or ill) as anything Marvel is doing.

Skipping it or neglecting to talk about it at all doesn't help anyone that might be interested in hearing from a trusted source about whether or not it's worth picking up. Pillorying it before it's out or engaging in idle speculation about it is equally unhelpful.

hauberk

bralinator said:

hauberk said:

I think that there's a difference between actively slagging and just bypassing it completely. One can keep a positive tone by simply omitting mention of the negative. If one keeps the topic on what one is enjoying, it becomes pretty clear, by omission what one is either not enjoying or not drawn toward. That's hardly a participation trophy.

That said, there's definitely an attaboy earned for recognizing that something isn't working and trying to fix it.

As for giving DC an "attaboy" I would have much more confidence if they had a change in leadership, but this is still the same crew that shipwrecked the SS Convergence. So there's that.

Fact is that DC just released their biggest movie and is embarking on another big event / reboot / something special. I want the opinions of the geeks on what thy predict the outcome will be or what their take is on it. I prefer not to have to make conclusions by a lack of response. If their take is negative, I still welcome it. Many of the geeks have poo-pood books I enjoyed and heralded books I thought sucked, quite frankly. It doesn't bother me. I enjoy, acknowledge, and welcome the discussion.

So your preference is that they engage in the same speculative fanwank as you've regularly done with FF, Xmen etc?

I'd rather hear them talk about what they've read and their opinions on that rather than speaking from an uninformed or speculative opinion.

David_D

@hauberk I honestly don't follow-- they spent a big chunk of their 1600th episode talking about what they knew about DC Rebirth, from the livestream announcements and preview images-- basically, all anyone that is invested and buzzing has to go on at the time of the recording-- they went through the creative team announcements in detail.

To my ear, there was far more time spent talking up the books they want to try-- and why they were intrigued, based on creative teams and concepts-- than was spent talking about whether or why they were hesitant or cynical about the reboot in general. Pants even compared the Rebirth special to the Countdown to Infinite Crisis one shot that kicked off a high point in modern DC Comics history. Is that idle speculation? I suppose. But, some pretty hopeful idle speculation. I feel like they were treating this as newsworthy.

I have to ask: As a DC fan, in an episode that drops the same time the first set of Rebirth books are solicited for pre-order... you would have rather they had *not* done this, skipped spending time speculating on and talking up the books they are going to order, and just wait until they come out and review them then? Given how comics work, isn't an episode like this exactly what might get listeners (many of whom I would guess are DCBS users, or pull-list-at-the-shop folks, and, let's be honest with the numbers, there are a lot of lapsed DC fans out there) buzzing and intrigued about these books at the time when they can order them and make a difference?

i_am_scifi

hauberk said:

I don't think anoyone asked for false enthusiasm. However, I'm not sure, short of canning the entire senior staff, many people are willing to even take a wait and see approach which, for what it's worth to get me to pick up another Marvel book (even before Perlmuter got out his checkbook). It's not out yet, no one really knows what it is and, at the end of the day, it's easily as newsworthy (for good or ill) as anything Marvel is doing.

Skipping it or neglecting to talk about it at all doesn't help anyone that might be interested in hearing from a trusted source about whether or not it's worth picking up. Pillorying it before it's out or engaging in idle speculation about it is equally unhelpful.

And from what I heard from listening to the entire segment, that's not at all what happened here. The guys simply read off the solicits, said which books sounded good to them, and gave an overall feel on where DC is right now. And @wildpigcomics made it perfectly clear later in the episode that he hopes this all works out well, and that DC's books once again wind up on the upswing. As for @Dani, see above on that to see she feels exactly the same way.

Nobody is writing this off before reading anything yet. That's defeatist. The best part of being a comic book fan is being pleasantly surprised by something.

hauberk

As I said earlier, I haven't listened yet. My initial affirmation was about the idea that things have generally gotten more cynical. Even the vaunted DMZ talk was after all parties had read the book and not the recent (1600 excluded) less informed bagging.

David_D

hauberk said:

As I said earlier, I haven't listened yet. My initial affirmation was about the idea that things have generally gotten more cynical. Even the vaunted DMZ talk was after all parties had read the book and not the recent (1600 excluded) less informed bagging.

Ah. That makes more sense, then.

I think you might find, when you listen, that the rumors of bagging in this episode may have been a bit exaggerated. At least, they are in my opinion.

As for uniformed? Well, again, this is the announcement/buzz/pre-order point. I agree that reviews of the actual work are more interesting, and I always prefer Book of the Month Club and Spotlights to Previews. But Previews and speculating on the next big thing *might* be like has always been a big part of what CGS (and fandom in general) does.

i_am_scifi

Okay, so you're commenting out of pure conjecture. Got it.