And to call is clickbait doesn't fly for me either. Was it Clickbait when Galactus showed up to devour the world? Was it clickbait when Spider-Man is out of webfluid and is plummeting to his death? When Robin got eaten by a giant clam?
Why you gotta go there? For many of us, Robin is still trapped in that giant clam...
Crap, Brack...now I kinda wanna go read this comic... :)
The real question you have to ask yourself going into Nick Spencer's Cap books is this - "How much did I like Mark Gruenwald's run on Captain America?".
Because Nick Spencer clearly liked it a lot.
See I'm finding more humor in:
Person A: "I can't believe they've done this to an iconic character like Captain America! Stamping on 75 years of tradition and integrity! It's an insult to the character, the company, and the people who've been reading his book loyally!"
Me: "Oh, you're a regular Captain America reader? You've followed the series for some time, then?"
Person A: "Well no. I don't actually collect the book but AARRGHHH...feel my outrage, Marvel! How dare you do this to me?!?"
That kinda stuff... :)
If you leave out that last part, then that's me.
Which I honestly don't have a problem with, and it can be labelled hypocritical until the cows come home.
Do I READ Cap? Nope. Last Cap series I read regularly was the 'Man Out of Time' mini series from a few years back.
My problem is that Marvel (and DC) have now both taken their most iconic and good hearted/moral characters and crapped all over them. Supes had become a darker, mopey, conflicted shell of himself. And now Cap is HYDRA.
Cap & Supes. Those are the only ones I want LEFT ALONE. In a comics world constantly obsessed with going dark and gritty, I just want Cap & Supes left alone. Leave them the upstanding moral centers of their respective universes. Leave them the LIGHT in the darkness. "It's your duty to stand your ground and say, NO, YOU move"
Superman should always be the big blue boyscout who helps everyone from villains not beyond redemption, to children being bullied. Who teaches lessons and always tries to do the right thing. Who visits Ma & Pa regularly for advice or just catching up. Who remains always devoted and honest with Lois. Who cares about friends and family and the WORLD at large.
Cap should always be the Solider. The man willing to do what it takes to protect hearth and home but who knows where to draw the line between just taking orders and doing what's RIGHT. The man who lost EVERYTHING but also gained so much more and knows it. The mentor who knows how to cut through the bullshit to the heart of a matter and ADDRESSES it. Who gives you tough love when you need it and stands at your side with an arm on your shoulder while you cry when you need that too.
I understand this is a mini. I understand that it'll be explained or probably even undone. But it doesn't mean I have to like it. Even for one gimmicky final page cliffhanger.
That being said, I'm not one of the ones calling for a boycott. I'm not calling for the creative team to be fired.
I don't like it, I'm going to address MY thoughts about it on MY social media and then just not buy it anymore.
You like it? You LOVE it? You want to buy it single issue floppy, digital AND trade? Great. Go for it. More power to you. Glad you found something you enjoy. But don't ask me to accept it because "it's happened in comics before" or because "comics are cyclical, what'd you expect?" or because....etc.
I may not READ Cap, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the character and (moreover) what he STANDS for and represents. That's something I respect and revere. Please leave it alone.
(PS: @Torchsong I'm not ranting AT you. I respect you too. I'm just addressing the general topic presented here.)
(PS: @Torchsong I'm not ranting AT you. I respect you too. I'm just addressing the general topic presented here.)
You'll be hearing from my attorney. :)
The best parallel I can draw for anyone that affected me directly - as I don't any real skin in the game where Cap and Supes are concerned - was Bratson aka. the recent redux of Captain Marvel, or more to the point Billy Batson. There was a decent bit of outrage when his storyline started out in the New 52 because in no simpler terms they made Billy Batson an asshole.
The arguments were made. We've heard them all before: This spits in the face of everything CC Beck and company built up. This is not my Captain Marvel. This is a smack in the face to everyone who's been a fan of the Big Red Cheese for the past 75 years.
(That last sentence applies to me, minus about 30 years. I haven't been on the planet quite that long. But I've been a Shazam fan for pretty much all of my years on it.)
But you know what? I love Bratson. I'd almost be willing to argue he's one of the few characters the New 52 did right. He's a foster kid, passed from home to home, and it's made him bitter and untrusting. He's learned to be tough and to keep any real feelings buried as deeply as possible. The one friend he's got is a horrible influence on him.
And I nodded my head and gave the book an "Amen" when the first thing he did after saying the magic word was to try and go buy beer. Damn right that's what I'd do if I were a kid in a man's body! :)
And by the end of the series he's made the hero's journey and realized there are people out there who matter, and aren't potential rubes to be taken advantage of, but people who need help...just like he does. It's one of my favorite Captain Marvel stories. I'm hoping Rebirth will keep the Marvel family shown in this series alive. Looks like it, anyhow, from the main poster.
But again, this was a terrible destruction of an iconic character, remember, and the ire was apparent right from that first issue where everyone stopped reading it. Had those people hung around and actually finished the series, they might - I say might because there are people who'll keep reading a series they hate just to enjoy hating it :) - have found a new take on the character and his "mythology".
And I've little doubt that, ten years down the road, we'll have yet another take on Batson & company...and I'll be there for it, health willing.
(Just don't mention Trials of Shazam...hoo boy... :) )
I don't think the Captain Marvel analogy is one that fits.
I see the attempted to "super-heroize" Captain Marvel as if they were to make an "all new, all different" Richie Rich where we find out his dad is a version of Donald Trump and all of the stories flow from that. The character wasn't made to be a super-hero. You can like him as a super-hero (and I LOVED him in Power of Shazam and Giffen's JLA), but it ain't the same thing.
The "change" in Captain America is like when he was replaced by "USAgent", became a werewolf, had the Red Skull in his body while he was in the Red Skull's body, became Nomad, when he was replaced by Bucky and on and on and on. Fans have taken what happened and turned it into a focus of rage, many of which haven't read the buildup of the story itself.
More than anything else, it shows the toxicity of today's fandom and why more and more of us want nothing to do with it. When Stan had Cap controlled by the Red Skull, fans went "Oh wow, what happens next!", now, fans say "They have ruined everything forever and the writer must die!"
Quite literally - "must die". Spencer and Breevort got some rather scary emails that hopefully got forwarded to the proper authorities.
With Cap Marvel it wasn't so much Cap they changed as Batson. Billy was almost always a do-good-at-all-times kid, even in Ordway's brilliant run. One issue in on Bratson - heck not even one issue, it was a short in the back of another book - and the fandom went berzerk. The hand-wringing was there just as it was here, but I don't recall any death threats coming out of the matter.
We Shazam fans are a much more mild-mannered lot. :)
the toxicity of today's fandom and why more and more of us want nothing to do with it. When Stan had Cap controlled by the Red Skull, fans went "Oh wow, what happens next!", now, fans say "They have ruined everything forever and the writer must die!"
There are people that make death threats on Twitter or demand that comic book properties be converted into gay lovers, but that's just a vocal minority. Some of those getting upset over Hydra Cap may be fans who have watched comic writers' politics bleed into comics for years now and they're finally calling 'foul' (and you can say writers' politics have bled into comics for years, but probably can't cite any examples of it pertaining to a scandal on the left-wing of the political spectrum). Then there are those who may be Jewish and are upset with this reveal, or maybe just those who are interested in a nuanced discussion as to why this feels like so much more off-center than a Cap-Wolf storyline or Carol Danvers giving birth to her own rapist.
For the record, that's from Tales of Suspense #67 where Cap is brainwashed to be Nazi tool. It lasted 3 issues. Guess how many superheroes Cap killed in that arc: zero. Guess how many people he killed at all in that arc: zero.
Fact is, Marvel is doubling down on a formula that has worked for them over the last few years, turning their highest level heroes into villains. From Superior Spider-Man to Superior Iron Man, this is just the next evolution of that (and as I recall, they never concluded that Superior Iron Man storyline, did they?). Oh how I miss compression in comics.
Yes, of course we know this will be retconned or resolved, eventually. But, consider these recent tales: we still don't know what happened to Superior Iron Man, nor do we know what secret original Nick Fury told Thor that caused him to become 'unworthy' so if the story is meaningless and will remain unsatisfactorily unresolved, then where does that leave us? And even if you still disagree with my POV, you have to ask what happened with those storylines. Will they EVER be resolved since we've had another soft-reboot since then?
Cosmic cubes and writers rehashing old ideas aside, this story doesn't work for me for two reasons. One, Captain America is worthy.
Two, while my knowledge of comics history is certainly less than some of the higher level disciples of the medium found on these forums, my understanding is that Captain America was created purely because Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were repulsed by Nazism. Cap made his first appearance a year before Pearl Harbor and he was shown on his first cover beating the hell out of Hitler. He was the first of the patriotic politically themed heroes. He served as American propaganda during the golden age of comics.
If someone wants to complain about what Nick Spencer and Tom Brevoort are doing with this new series to their beloved icon, so be it. If you didn't get upset when "fans" were demanding Disney make Cap & Bucky gay, then you don't have much standing if you're only upset now when some fans get vocal about a writer who just turned their beloved patriotic hero into a Nazi.
I say, give 'em hell, Cap fans - that's what the internet was invented for
the toxicity of today's fandom and why more and more of us want nothing to do with it. When Stan had Cap controlled by the Red Skull, fans went "Oh wow, what happens next!", now, fans say "They have ruined everything forever and the writer must die!"
There are people that make death threats on Twitter or demand that comic book properties be converted into gay lovers, but that's just a vocal minority. Some of those getting upset over Hydra Cap may be fans who have watched comic writers' politics bleed into comics for years now and they're finally calling 'foul' (and you can say writers' politics have bled into comics for years, but probably can't cite any examples of it pertaining to a scandal on the left-wing of the political spectrum). Then there are those who may be Jewish and are upset with this reveal, or maybe just those who are interested in a nuanced discussion as to why this feels like so much more off-center than a Cap-Wolf storyline or Carol Danvers giving birth to her own rapist.
...
Captain America was born as a political character and continues to be one. The difference, I think is less about him being political but more about him being political on the perceived wrong side of the aisle. At inception, Cap was about intervention in a time when the US was stolidly anti-intervention.
If you still miss compression in comics you know what books you should be reading? Nick Spencer's Captain America comics! So far it's all been 1-3 parters. I guess there's no pleasing some people, though.
HA! Hilarious Brack. You get a no-prize for that one. You nimbly skipped every other salient point and went for the easy laughs. Way to go FOOM member :)
There are people that make death threats on Twitter or demand that comic book properties be converted into gay lovers, but that's just a vocal minority. Some of those getting upset over Hydra Cap may be fans who have watched comic writers' politics bleed into comics for years now and they're finally calling 'foul' (and you can say writers' politics have bled into comics for years, but probably can't cite any examples of it pertaining to a scandal on the left-wing of the political spectrum). Then there are those who may be Jewish and are upset with this reveal, or maybe just those who are interested in a nuanced discussion as to why this feels like so much more off-center than a Cap-Wolf storyline or Carol Danvers giving birth to her own rapist.
I take it you've never read anything by Chuck Dixon, Dan Jurgens (who pointedly had Clinton embrace the Cyborg Superman because he hated Clinton so much), Mike Baron, Bill Tucci, or Bill Willingham, all of whom let their conservative beliefs inform their stories, especially on The Punisher or in their War stories.
I've read Chuck Dixon, and like him, but I should have said stories in Captain America. I checked out on Jurgens back when Superman died.
I didn't read Jurgens on Cap, but I would be more than a little surprised if he didn't let his center-right politics seep into the stories like he did with Superman.
I've read Chuck Dixon, and like him, but I should have said stories in Captain America. I checked out on Jurgens back when Superman died.
I didn't read Jurgens on Cap, but I would be more than a little surprised if he didn't let his center-right politics seep into the stories like he did with Superman.
I'd be very surprised if that were the case. That doesn't change people's perception and/or frustration of what is going on in this story or with Marvel's recent output. Obviously, your mileage may vary
Then there are those who may be Jewish and are upset with this reveal, or maybe just those who are interested in a nuanced discussion as to why this feels like so much more off-center than a Cap-Wolf storyline or Carol Danvers giving birth to her own rapist.
Marvel is doubling down on a formula that has worked for them over the last few years, turning their highest level heroes into villains. From Superior Spider-Man to Superior Iron Man, this is just the next evolution of that (and as I recall, they never concluded that Superior Iron Man storyline, did they?).
In case anyone is reading this without knowing what happened, here is what you need to know about Steve Rogers: Captain America #1:
+ Steve Rogers had an abusive father growing up.
+ Steve’s mother, Sarah, is aided by a “Hydra Society” member one night after her husband beats her. She takes a pamphlet for Hydra’s New York chapter (emblazoned with a skull with tentacles).
+ In 2016, Red Skull is shown recruiting the next generation of Hydra by making several conservative viewpoints about Europe’s refugee crisis.
+ S.H.I.E.L.D. then locates Baron Zemo, which prompts Captain America, Jack Flag, and Free Spirit to the lawless city of Bagalia.
+ Jack Flag disregards Cap’s orders and assists in confronting Zemo in the villain’s jet.
+ Captain America laments Jack Flag’s decision and then throws Jack Flag out a cargo drop to his death.
+ The issue ends with Captain America saying “Hail Hydra” to Doctor Erik Selvig, a scientist Zemo held hostage in an attempt to find the sentient Cosmic Cube known as Kobik.
Sounds a little like Nazi fan-fiction.
Thanks for the info. I'm very happy I didn't buy the book.
There's almost a growing tension between those who think superheroes need to be fixed, and those who still need to believe in what they represent. Of course "this will all be fixed" I think everyone here knows how comics work, but in this case, it wildly misses the point. "Don't worry, they can fix the dents on the car that hit you" - I'm sure this won't stick like the time Hank Pym hit Jan. Of course it's a stunt, but an incredibly offensive one to some folks (including Joe Simon's son). You might take note of the massive difference in response to the Nazi Cap news from Jewish people and non-Jewish.
If Nick Spencer had turned Steve into a rapist or a chainsaw murderer who turned people into a bloody mess on the floor, would that be repellent enough and deserving of condemnation? Or, if Steve were turned into an al Qaeda terrorist, wouldn't that be offensive to victims of 9-11? Or would they not have permission to take offense either? People get upset and people think fandom is messed up. Fandom isn't broken. Some fans are truly bad, but a lot of the comics media is seriously bad. Fandom as a whole has never been more wonderful. If it even needs to be said, "don't send death threats to creators" of course, but then, don't conflate criticism with a-holes who just want an excuse to send death threats. There is legitimate criticism over these kinds of changes and stories. Dismissing reasonable critiques out of hand because others are being stupid is just condescending.
Lost in all this defense of the twist, is Nick Spencer's use of Red Skull to represent his tunnel-vision of political minded people he disdains; conservatives, critics of Islamo-fascism, and opponents of illegal immigration sneaking across the border. I find that even more repugnant, but Spencer likes to get political in his books and Marvel has given him reign over their most potential political propaganda property ever. Superhero comics have been largely passed from the care of those who need them, to the custody of those lucky enough to be able to break them. Nick Spencer may be a great comics writer, but he is not inoculated from honest criticism. For nearly the entirety of Steve Rogers' history of the character has stood for an idealized version of America - the best of us. So no, Nick Spencer isn't being 'edgy' and 'shocking' with Nazi Cap, he's merely exposing how very, very limited his view of the world is.
I feel like both DC and Marvel need to hire someone whose sole job is to tell them when their ideas are dumb and/or potentially problematic. Let this sink in that "Nazi Captain America" isn't considered an obstacle to toy sales but "female character of any importance" is. That's your Marvel corporate mind-set fright now.
Being a for-profit enterprise, I imagine they can let the market decide. If people stop buying the books and participating in the merchandising in high numbers, then they can course correct pretty quickly. As, luckily for them, their brands are actually made out of make-believe.
I still argue that NOBODY should pass judgment (or moral outrage) until the full story has been told and the whole picture is revealed. People are passing verdict on this case without all the facts. Once the story is over, that might be a different situation... but for now everyone needs to try to contain themselves and objectively watch how it plays out. "Reasonable critiques" are not on the table until the whole story has been presented. I definitely wouldn't give credence to a Film reviewer that walked out in the first 15 minutes. You may not like where (you think) this story is headed, but you have zero credibility to back up your distaste unless you know the complete story.
As for the Red Skull... I found nothing out of character with his depiction in Nick Spencer's first issue. If anything, his recruitment speech was a little on the tame side for the Red Skull.
There's almost a growing tension between those who think superheroes need to be fixed, and those who still need to believe in what they represent. Of course "this will all be fixed" I think everyone here knows how comics work, but in this case, it wildly misses the point. "Don't worry, they can fix the dents on the car that hit you" - I'm sure this won't stick like the time Hank Pym hit Jan. Of course it's a stunt, but an incredibly offensive one to some folks (including Joe Simon's son). You might take note of the massive difference in response to the Nazi Cap news from Jewish people and non-Jewish.
If Nick Spencer had turned Steve into a rapist or a chainsaw murderer who turned people into a bloody mess on the floor, would that be repellent enough and deserving of condemnation? Or, if Steve were turned into an al Qaeda terrorist, wouldn't that be offensive to victims of 9-11? Or would they not have permission to take offense either? People get upset and people think fandom is messed up. Fandom isn't broken. Some fans are truly bad, but a lot of the comics media is seriously bad. Fandom as a whole has never been more wonderful. If it even needs to be said, "don't send death threats to creators" of course, but then, don't conflate criticism with a-holes who just want an excuse to send death threats. There is legitimate criticism over these kinds of changes and stories. Dismissing reasonable critiques out of hand because others are being stupid is just condescending.
Lost in all this defense of the twist, is Nick Spencer's use of Red Skull to represent his tunnel-vision of political minded people he disdains; conservatives, critics of Islamo-fascism, and opponents of illegal immigration sneaking across the border. I find that even more repugnant, but Spencer likes to get political in his books and Marvel has given him reign over their most potential political propaganda property ever. Superhero comics have been largely passed from the care of those who need them, to the custody of those lucky enough to be able to break them. Nick Spencer may be a great comics writer, but he is not inoculated from honest criticism. For nearly the entirety of Steve Rogers' history of the character has stood for an idealized version of America - the best of us. So no, Nick Spencer isn't being 'edgy' and 'shocking' with Nazi Cap, he's merely exposing how very, very limited his view of the world is.
I feel like both DC and Marvel need to hire someone whose sole job is to tell them when their ideas are dumb and/or potentially problematic. Let this sink in that "Nazi Captain America" isn't considered an obstacle to toy sales but "female character of any importance" is. That's your Marvel corporate mind-set fright now.
Being a for-profit enterprise, I imagine they can let the market decide. If people stop buying the books and participating in the merchandising in high numbers, then they can course correct pretty quickly. As, luckily for them, their brands are actually made out of make-believe.
#TriggerWarning
Oh I don't disagree with your conclusion in the least, @David_D. I just think several people may have missed my point. I wonder how well the new Black Panther series would fare if Choates decided, in the last panel of issue #3, to have T'Challa brutally murder one of his people and say "Die (n-word)!!" and then reveal he's been brainwashed to become a member of the KKK? Would it be bad form if I claimed (similar to my CA criticisms) that this was a foul decision and not in character or would people still gleefully pile-on saying "you don't know comics work!" and "cosmic-cube's gonna fix that!!", et al? And say "it's just comics" and it's all make-believe? It's condescending.
Being a for-profit enterprise, I imagine they can let the market decide. If people stop buying the books and participating in the merchandising in high numbers, then they can course correct pretty quickly. As, luckily for them, their brands are actually made out of make-believe.
#TriggerWarning
Oh I don't disagree with your conclusion in the least, @David_D. I just think several people may have missed my point. I wonder how well the new Black Panther series would fare if Choates decided, in the last panel of issue #3, to have T'Challa brutally murder one of his people and say "Die (n-word)!!" and then reveal he's been brainwashed to become a member of the KKK? Would it be bad form if I claimed (similar to my CA criticisms) that this was a foul decision and not in character or would people still gleefully pile-on saying "you don't know comics work!" and "cosmic-cube's gonna fix that!!", et al? And say "it's just comics" and it's all make-believe? It's condescending.
If Nick Spencer had turned Steve into a rapist or a chainsaw murderer who turned people into a bloody mess on the floor, would that be repellent enough and deserving of condemnation?
The heroic, patriotic, ideal hero, Captain America, was shown killing one of his fellow comrades, and then demonstrated allegiance with a murderous, evil group that he has been an enemy of for decades. I simply used a similar example perpetrated by another decades old hero who also happens to be on the cineplex and celebrating an anniversary this year - Black Panther and the KKK.
I disagree that it's a false equivalency and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
If Nick Spencer had turned Steve into a rapist or a chainsaw murderer who turned people into a bloody mess on the floor, would that be repellent enough and deserving of condemnation?
The heroic, patriotic, ideal hero, Captain America, was shown killing one of his fellow comrades, and then demonstrated allegiance with a murderous, evil group that he has been an enemy of for decades. I simply used a similar example perpetrated by another decades old hero who also happens to be on the cineplex and celebrating an anniversary this year - Black Panther and the KKK.
I disagree that it's a false equivalency and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
I don't think the earlier hypothetical was asked of me directly. And I don't see myself interested in proving anything to you, as this will eventually all come down to opinion, and personal preference. I am up to continue the discussion, and elaborating on what I think, in the interest of the discussion and those reading along. But don't think my interest here is to prove something to you or change your mind. I don't need to be challenged to simply continue a thoughtful discussion.
Also, I don't think I am in a good position to speak to what Spencer has or hasn't done in detail, as I have not read this comic book yet. Have you? And therefore I can't speak how vividly Cap's pro-Hydra actions in that comic might compare to your hypothetical. Does he kill someone because they are Jewish, call them the K-word, and then pull a Swastika band up his arm?
As for why, on the face of it, I don't see the analogy in "Captain America is to Hydra as Black Panther is to the KKK":
Sure, they are both evil groups that these characters are longtime enemies of. But the difference is that KKK is real, and Hydra is make believe.
And, sure, those of us that know the comics from back in the day might see Hydra and Nazis as the same thing, or at least adjacent, but since the first Cap movie in 2011, Marvel has been doing a lot to try to separate them from the actual, historical Nazis. They have been trying to rebrand/ retcon Hydra as a group of super-weapon power grabbers that came out of WW2. But then became their own, separate thing.
The current Hydra, at least in how I have seen them presented in the movies, and when they have been in the comics I have read, are no longer actually Nazis. They are a different thing. There is not the Nazi iconography, like the Swastikas, that used to be prominent when Red Skull was around back in the day. There are not Hitler salutes, like the one that Kirby drew in that story that was references earlier in the thread.
I think it is no longer true that Hydra = Nazis. But, to compare to your suggested equivalent, the KKK does = the KKK.
Hydra is Nazi-based in the minds of Jewish people and the creators, especially when you recall that Red Skull answered to Hitler.
If you've missed that somehow in this discussion, then we are at uneven perspectives.
Captain America = hero to Jewish people. Hydra/Nazi = enemy Black Panther = hero to African-Americans. KKK = enemy
Equivalence to make my point. Don't miss the race commentary.
I have not missed that many feel that the revelation that the comic book Captain America appears to be a Hydra agent means that Cap is now a Nazi.
I just don't agree that it is accurate. Not in the way that Hydra has been getting moved further and further away from actual WW2 history, and into the territory of being a stand-alone, super-science world domination group. The current Hydra feels more in common with Cobra from G.I. Joe than they do with the actual, historical Nazis.
And I think that has been an intentional move on Marvel's part. (In fact, and this was probably a few forums ago, and lost in the ether, but my main criticism of Captain America: The First Avenger- as well as how his origin was presented in a contemporaneous Avengers cartoon- was making a separation from his roots in a real war, and making it seem like the world was at war with Hydra rather than the Axis. I found that timid, and actually a disservice to Cap as a character rooted in real world history. But, now 5 or 6 years later, I can see that it was part of an effort to make merchandising and licensing Cap stuff (as well as platforming to kids cartoons) easier when, Hydra does not create an immediate association with Nazis in the mind of the public.
For example, if Hydra=Nazis, then back in 2011, is it fair to say Baskin Robbins had a Nazi-themed ice cream sundae?
I try not to presume to speak on behalf of other people, or of people as monolithic groups. But, given what you have inferred about what is in the minds of the Jewish people, and Cap's creators, do you think if they were in a Baskin Robbins back in 2011, they saw that sundae as Nazi ice cream?
Personally, I don't recall anyone ever raising an eyebrow at that, or some outcry on social media, with the exception of a joke from Drunk Cap. The general public did not seem to make the Hydra=Nazi connection, because I don't think that connection is one that is common outside of those with deep comic knowledge.
A green Hydra suited guy with a laser gun is not recognizable as a Nazi if you don't know your comics. It takes reading some old comics, a footnote, or someone on social media giving you that context. "Hail Hydra" is not "Heil Hitler".
But a man in white KKK robes and hood, is immediately recognizable for what they are, and what that means. To me, that is a difference. And that is why I don't see the equivalence.
A relatively unknown treat at Baskin Robbins doesn't quite compare to Captain America fighting for the enemy and killing off other patriotic heroes. As for Twitter outrage, I wouldn't know. But there was plenty of mockery (example 1, example 2) at the time. Still, I don't think BK had the same level of marketing heft then that Marvel does now so it didn't get enough press.
As for speaking for Jews, if you don't see how Jews' feelings matter here, remember, Captain America is literally Erskine’s golem. Erskine was a Jewish man who was forced out Germany, and he gave a good man the ability to become a super soldier, because Jews needed hope. Even Joe Simon's son understands this.
If the race equivalence is a problem for you, then substitute the KKK for the Hatemonger, which is also a Hitler analog. My point is that this displayed the anti-thesis of the beloved character, showing him siding with a group associated with bigotry while brutally killing a comrade in arms - this is the comparison. It was meant to point out why this cheap twist is, or could be perceived as, a problem.
Comments
#NeverForget
Which I honestly don't have a problem with, and it can be labelled hypocritical until the cows come home.
Do I READ Cap? Nope. Last Cap series I read regularly was the 'Man Out of Time' mini series from a few years back.
My problem is that Marvel (and DC) have now both taken their most iconic and good hearted/moral characters and crapped all over them. Supes had become a darker, mopey, conflicted shell of himself. And now Cap is HYDRA.
Cap & Supes. Those are the only ones I want LEFT ALONE. In a comics world constantly obsessed with going dark and gritty, I just want Cap & Supes left alone. Leave them the upstanding moral centers of their respective universes. Leave them the LIGHT in the darkness. "It's your duty to stand your ground and say, NO, YOU move"
Superman should always be the big blue boyscout who helps everyone from villains not beyond redemption, to children being bullied. Who teaches lessons and always tries to do the right thing. Who visits Ma & Pa regularly for advice or just catching up. Who remains always devoted and honest with Lois. Who cares about friends and family and the WORLD at large.
Cap should always be the Solider. The man willing to do what it takes to protect hearth and home but who knows where to draw the line between just taking orders and doing what's RIGHT. The man who lost EVERYTHING but also gained so much more and knows it. The mentor who knows how to cut through the bullshit to the heart of a matter and ADDRESSES it. Who gives you tough love when you need it and stands at your side with an arm on your shoulder while you cry when you need that too.
I understand this is a mini. I understand that it'll be explained or probably even undone. But it doesn't mean I have to like it. Even for one gimmicky final page cliffhanger.
That being said, I'm not one of the ones calling for a boycott. I'm not calling for the creative team to be fired.
I don't like it, I'm going to address MY thoughts about it on MY social media and then just not buy it anymore.
You like it? You LOVE it? You want to buy it single issue floppy, digital AND trade? Great. Go for it. More power to you. Glad you found something you enjoy. But don't ask me to accept it because "it's happened in comics before" or because "comics are cyclical, what'd you expect?" or because....etc.
I may not READ Cap, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the character and (moreover) what he STANDS for and represents. That's something I respect and revere. Please leave it alone.
(PS: @Torchsong I'm not ranting AT you. I respect you too. I'm just addressing the general topic presented here.)
The best parallel I can draw for anyone that affected me directly - as I don't any real skin in the game where Cap and Supes are concerned - was Bratson aka. the recent redux of Captain Marvel, or more to the point Billy Batson. There was a decent bit of outrage when his storyline started out in the New 52 because in no simpler terms they made Billy Batson an asshole.
The arguments were made. We've heard them all before: This spits in the face of everything CC Beck and company built up. This is not my Captain Marvel. This is a smack in the face to everyone who's been a fan of the Big Red Cheese for the past 75 years.
(That last sentence applies to me, minus about 30 years. I haven't been on the planet quite that long. But I've been a Shazam fan for pretty much all of my years on it.)
But you know what? I love Bratson. I'd almost be willing to argue he's one of the few characters the New 52 did right. He's a foster kid, passed from home to home, and it's made him bitter and untrusting. He's learned to be tough and to keep any real feelings buried as deeply as possible. The one friend he's got is a horrible influence on him.
And I nodded my head and gave the book an "Amen" when the first thing he did after saying the magic word was to try and go buy beer. Damn right that's what I'd do if I were a kid in a man's body! :)
And by the end of the series he's made the hero's journey and realized there are people out there who matter, and aren't potential rubes to be taken advantage of, but people who need help...just like he does. It's one of my favorite Captain Marvel stories. I'm hoping Rebirth will keep the Marvel family shown in this series alive. Looks like it, anyhow, from the main poster.
But again, this was a terrible destruction of an iconic character, remember, and the ire was apparent right from that first issue where everyone stopped reading it. Had those people hung around and actually finished the series, they might - I say might because there are people who'll keep reading a series they hate just to enjoy hating it :) - have found a new take on the character and his "mythology".
And I've little doubt that, ten years down the road, we'll have yet another take on Batson & company...and I'll be there for it, health willing.
(Just don't mention Trials of Shazam...hoo boy... :) )
I see the attempted to "super-heroize" Captain Marvel as if they were to make an "all new, all different" Richie Rich where we find out his dad is a version of Donald Trump and all of the stories flow from that. The character wasn't made to be a super-hero. You can like him as a super-hero (and I LOVED him in Power of Shazam and Giffen's JLA), but it ain't the same thing.
The "change" in Captain America is like when he was replaced by "USAgent", became a werewolf, had the Red Skull in his body while he was in the Red Skull's body, became Nomad, when he was replaced by Bucky and on and on and on. Fans have taken what happened and turned it into a focus of rage, many of which haven't read the buildup of the story itself.
More than anything else, it shows the toxicity of today's fandom and why more and more of us want nothing to do with it. When Stan had Cap controlled by the Red Skull, fans went "Oh wow, what happens next!", now, fans say "They have ruined everything forever and the writer must die!"
With Cap Marvel it wasn't so much Cap they changed as Batson. Billy was almost always a do-good-at-all-times kid, even in Ordway's brilliant run. One issue in on Bratson - heck not even one issue, it was a short in the back of another book - and the fandom went berzerk. The hand-wringing was there just as it was here, but I don't recall any death threats coming out of the matter.
We Shazam fans are a much more mild-mannered lot. :)
For the record, that's from Tales of Suspense #67 where Cap is brainwashed to be Nazi tool. It lasted 3 issues. Guess how many superheroes Cap killed in that arc: zero. Guess how many people he killed at all in that arc: zero.
Fact is, Marvel is doubling down on a formula that has worked for them over the last few years, turning their highest level heroes into villains. From Superior Spider-Man to Superior Iron Man, this is just the next evolution of that (and as I recall, they never concluded that Superior Iron Man storyline, did they?). Oh how I miss compression in comics.
Yes, of course we know this will be retconned or resolved, eventually. But, consider these recent tales: we still don't know what happened to Superior Iron Man, nor do we know what secret original Nick Fury told Thor that caused him to become 'unworthy' so if the story is meaningless and will remain unsatisfactorily unresolved, then where does that leave us? And even if you still disagree with my POV, you have to ask what happened with those storylines. Will they EVER be resolved since we've had another soft-reboot since then?
Cosmic cubes and writers rehashing old ideas aside, this story doesn't work for me for two reasons. One, Captain America is worthy.
Two, while my knowledge of comics history is certainly less than some of the higher level disciples of the medium found on these forums, my understanding is that Captain America was created purely because Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were repulsed by Nazism. Cap made his first appearance a year before Pearl Harbor and he was shown on his first cover beating the hell out of Hitler. He was the first of the patriotic politically themed heroes. He served as American propaganda during the golden age of comics.
If someone wants to complain about what Nick Spencer and Tom Brevoort are doing with this new series to their beloved icon, so be it. If you didn't get upset when "fans" were demanding Disney make Cap & Bucky gay, then you don't have much standing if you're only upset now when some fans get vocal about a writer who just turned their beloved patriotic hero into a Nazi.
I say, give 'em hell, Cap fans - that's what the internet was invented for
If Nick Spencer had turned Steve into a rapist or a chainsaw murderer who turned people into a bloody mess on the floor, would that be repellent enough and deserving of condemnation? Or, if Steve were turned into an al Qaeda terrorist, wouldn't that be offensive to victims of 9-11? Or would they not have permission to take offense either? People get upset and people think fandom is messed up. Fandom isn't broken. Some fans are truly bad, but a lot of the comics media is seriously bad. Fandom as a whole has never been more wonderful. If it even needs to be said, "don't send death threats to creators" of course, but then, don't conflate criticism with a-holes who just want an excuse to send death threats. There is legitimate criticism over these kinds of changes and stories. Dismissing reasonable critiques out of hand because others are being stupid is just condescending.
Lost in all this defense of the twist, is Nick Spencer's use of Red Skull to represent his tunnel-vision of political minded people he disdains; conservatives, critics of Islamo-fascism, and opponents of illegal immigration sneaking across the border. I find that even more repugnant, but Spencer likes to get political in his books and Marvel has given him reign over their most potential political propaganda property ever. Superhero comics have been largely passed from the care of those who need them, to the custody of those lucky enough to be able to break them. Nick Spencer may be a great comics writer, but he is not inoculated from honest criticism. For nearly the entirety of Steve Rogers' history of the character has stood for an idealized version of America - the best of us. So no, Nick Spencer isn't being 'edgy' and 'shocking' with Nazi Cap, he's merely exposing how very, very limited his view of the world is.
I feel like both DC and Marvel need to hire someone whose sole job is to tell them when their ideas are dumb and/or potentially problematic. Let this sink in that "Nazi Captain America" isn't considered an obstacle to toy sales but "female character of any importance" is. That's your Marvel corporate mind-set fright now.
A helpful response: https://sigridellis.wordpress.com/2016/05/25/if-youre-not-outraged-just-come-sit-over-here-for-a-minute/
Lines are being crossed all the time. Oft times ill-advised.
As for the Red Skull... I found nothing out of character with his depiction in Nick Spencer's first issue. If anything, his recruitment speech was a little on the tame side for the Red Skull.
ahh...
Oh I don't disagree with your conclusion in the least, @David_D. I just think several people may have missed my point. I wonder how well the new Black Panther series would fare if Choates decided, in the last panel of issue #3, to have T'Challa brutally murder one of his people and say "Die (n-word)!!" and then reveal he's been brainwashed to become a member of the KKK? Would it be bad form if I claimed (similar to my CA criticisms) that this was a foul decision and not in character or would people still gleefully pile-on saying "you don't know comics work!" and "cosmic-cube's gonna fix that!!", et al? And say "it's just comics" and it's all make-believe? It's condescending.
#SafeSpace available HERE
You never made that argument when I said The heroic, patriotic, ideal hero, Captain America, was shown killing one of his fellow comrades, and then demonstrated allegiance with a murderous, evil group that he has been an enemy of for decades. I simply used a similar example perpetrated by another decades old hero who also happens to be on the cineplex and celebrating an anniversary this year - Black Panther and the KKK.
I disagree that it's a false equivalency and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
Also, I don't think I am in a good position to speak to what Spencer has or hasn't done in detail, as I have not read this comic book yet. Have you? And therefore I can't speak how vividly Cap's pro-Hydra actions in that comic might compare to your hypothetical. Does he kill someone because they are Jewish, call them the K-word, and then pull a Swastika band up his arm?
As for why, on the face of it, I don't see the analogy in "Captain America is to Hydra as Black Panther is to the KKK":
Sure, they are both evil groups that these characters are longtime enemies of. But the difference is that KKK is real, and Hydra is make believe.
And, sure, those of us that know the comics from back in the day might see Hydra and Nazis as the same thing, or at least adjacent, but since the first Cap movie in 2011, Marvel has been doing a lot to try to separate them from the actual, historical Nazis. They have been trying to rebrand/ retcon Hydra as a group of super-weapon power grabbers that came out of WW2. But then became their own, separate thing.
The current Hydra, at least in how I have seen them presented in the movies, and when they have been in the comics I have read, are no longer actually Nazis. They are a different thing. There is not the Nazi iconography, like the Swastikas, that used to be prominent when Red Skull was around back in the day. There are not Hitler salutes, like the one that Kirby drew in that story that was references earlier in the thread.
I think it is no longer true that Hydra = Nazis. But, to compare to your suggested equivalent, the KKK does = the KKK.
If you've missed that somehow in this discussion, then we are at uneven perspectives.
Captain America = hero to Jewish people. Hydra/Nazi = enemy
Black Panther = hero to African-Americans. KKK = enemy
Equivalence to make my point. Don't miss the race commentary.
I just don't agree that it is accurate. Not in the way that Hydra has been getting moved further and further away from actual WW2 history, and into the territory of being a stand-alone, super-science world domination group. The current Hydra feels more in common with Cobra from G.I. Joe than they do with the actual, historical Nazis.
And I think that has been an intentional move on Marvel's part. (In fact, and this was probably a few forums ago, and lost in the ether, but my main criticism of Captain America: The First Avenger- as well as how his origin was presented in a contemporaneous Avengers cartoon- was making a separation from his roots in a real war, and making it seem like the world was at war with Hydra rather than the Axis. I found that timid, and actually a disservice to Cap as a character rooted in real world history. But, now 5 or 6 years later, I can see that it was part of an effort to make merchandising and licensing Cap stuff (as well as platforming to kids cartoons) easier when, Hydra does not create an immediate association with Nazis in the mind of the public.
For example, if Hydra=Nazis, then back in 2011, is it fair to say Baskin Robbins had a Nazi-themed ice cream sundae?
I try not to presume to speak on behalf of other people, or of people as monolithic groups. But, given what you have inferred about what is in the minds of the Jewish people, and Cap's creators, do you think if they were in a Baskin Robbins back in 2011, they saw that sundae as Nazi ice cream?
Personally, I don't recall anyone ever raising an eyebrow at that, or some outcry on social media, with the exception of a joke from Drunk Cap. The general public did not seem to make the Hydra=Nazi connection, because I don't think that connection is one that is common outside of those with deep comic knowledge.
A green Hydra suited guy with a laser gun is not recognizable as a Nazi if you don't know your comics. It takes reading some old comics, a footnote, or someone on social media giving you that context. "Hail Hydra" is not "Heil Hitler".
But a man in white KKK robes and hood, is immediately recognizable for what they are, and what that means. To me, that is a difference. And that is why I don't see the equivalence.
A relatively unknown treat at Baskin Robbins doesn't quite compare to Captain America fighting for the enemy and killing off other patriotic heroes. As for Twitter outrage, I wouldn't know. But there was plenty of mockery (example 1, example 2) at the time. Still, I don't think BK had the same level of marketing heft then that Marvel does now so it didn't get enough press.
As for speaking for Jews, if you don't see how Jews' feelings matter here, remember, Captain America is literally Erskine’s golem. Erskine was a Jewish man who was forced out Germany, and he gave a good man the ability to become a super soldier, because Jews needed hope. Even Joe Simon's son understands this.
Further reading: here, here & here
If the race equivalence is a problem for you, then substitute the KKK for the Hatemonger, which is also a Hitler analog. My point is that this displayed the anti-thesis of the beloved character, showing him siding with a group associated with bigotry while brutally killing a comrade in arms - this is the comparison. It was meant to point out why this cheap twist is, or could be perceived as, a problem.