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Captain America (2016) #1 SPOILERS!!! Major SPOILERS

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  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    In case anyone is reading this without knowing what happened, here is what you need to know about Steve Rogers: Captain America #1:

    + Steve Rogers had an abusive father growing up.

    + Steve’s mother, Sarah, is aided by a “Hydra Society” member one night after her husband beats her. She takes a pamphlet for Hydra’s New York chapter (emblazoned with a skull with tentacles).

    + In 2016, Red Skull is shown recruiting the next generation of Hydra by making several conservative viewpoints about Europe’s refugee crisis.

    + S.H.I.E.L.D. then locates Baron Zemo, which prompts Captain America, Jack Flag, and Free Spirit to the lawless city of Bagalia.

    + Jack Flag disregards Cap’s orders and assists in confronting Zemo in the villain’s jet.

    + Captain America laments Jack Flag’s decision and then throws Jack Flag out a cargo drop to his death.

    + The issue ends with Captain America saying “Hail Hydra” to Doctor Erik Selvig, a scientist Zemo held hostage in an attempt to find the sentient Cosmic Cube known as Kobik.

    Sounds a little like Nazi fan-fiction.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868
    edited May 2016

    In case anyone is reading this without knowing what happened, here is what you need to know about Steve Rogers: Captain America #1:

    + Steve Rogers had an abusive father growing up.

    + Steve’s mother, Sarah, is aided by a “Hydra Society” member one night after her husband beats her. She takes a pamphlet for Hydra’s New York chapter (emblazoned with a skull with tentacles).

    + In 2016, Red Skull is shown recruiting the next generation of Hydra by making several conservative viewpoints about Europe’s refugee crisis.

    + S.H.I.E.L.D. then locates Baron Zemo, which prompts Captain America, Jack Flag, and Free Spirit to the lawless city of Bagalia.

    + Jack Flag disregards Cap’s orders and assists in confronting Zemo in the villain’s jet.

    + Captain America laments Jack Flag’s decision and then throws Jack Flag out a cargo drop to his death.

    + The issue ends with Captain America saying “Hail Hydra” to Doctor Erik Selvig, a scientist Zemo held hostage in an attempt to find the sentient Cosmic Cube known as Kobik.

    Sounds a little like Nazi fan-fiction.

    The abusive father was established in Remender's run. Up until then Steve's father was never mentioned.

    The flashbacks feature characters in monotone with a single spot colour. That spot colour - RED. Where does that spot colour appear - on the Hydra recruiter. It's almost as if there's some sort of visual storytelling going on that can't conveyed in simplified story synopses. What could they possibly be trying to convey in a book featuring the RED SKULL as a villain?!?

    It most likely is Nazi fan-fiction, and the Nazi writing is a character in the book.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    You may be reading to much into it. This is the comicbook version of "clickbait,"
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Crap, Brack...now I kinda wanna go read this comic... :)
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868
    Torchsong said:

    Crap, Brack...now I kinda wanna go read this comic... :)

    The real question you have to ask yourself going into Nick Spencer's Cap books is this - "How much did I like Mark Gruenwald's run on Captain America?".

    Because Nick Spencer clearly liked it a lot.
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Brack said:

    Torchsong said:

    Crap, Brack...now I kinda wanna go read this comic... :)

    The real question you have to ask yourself going into Nick Spencer's Cap books is this - "How much did I like Mark Gruenwald's run on Captain America?".

    Because Nick Spencer clearly liked it a lot.
    See I'm finding more humor in:

    Person A: "I can't believe they've done this to an iconic character like Captain America! Stamping on 75 years of tradition and integrity! It's an insult to the character, the company, and the people who've been reading his book loyally!"

    Me: "Oh, you're a regular Captain America reader? You've followed the series for some time, then?"

    Person A: "Well no. I don't actually collect the book but AARRGHHH...feel my outrage, Marvel! How dare you do this to me?!?"

    That kinda stuff... :)
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    How about person B: "I've been checking out the Marvel reboots everytime they change things up. I thought John Romita Jr's run was bad, but this Nick Spencer is bloody shite."

    Happy Memorial Day America! Captain America is a Nazi... ! Not quite as repulsive as when Ultimates Blob ate the Wasp, but close.

    SPOILER: Yes, for context sake, it should be stated that the Red Skull is the most powerful telepath on earth right now, so we all get where it's going. wink* wink*

    Remember when Dan Slot turned Spider-Man into a villain?

    Remember when Iron Man turned out to be a villain in "The Crossing" so Marvel just killed him off and replaced him with teen Tony?

    Noticing a trend?

    Anyone can tell a story: Only successful writers can convince people to read a story.

  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794
    Person B doesn't sound like much of a comic book reader. Or to be honest more like today's comic book reader - buying books to bitch about them. So you may be closer to the truth than I'm willing to admit. :)

    Or, as the owner of my LCS pointed out: "Really? They're freaking out over the last panel of issue #1? Come back and talk to me when issue #6 is out."

  • HexHex Posts: 944

    Anyone can tell a story: Only successful writers can convince people to read a story.

    You will never know how good the story is unless you actually READ THE WHOLE STORY.
    For those that are confused... here is a hint; Captain America: Steve Rogers (2016) #1 isn't the WHOLE STORY. It is just getting started.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited May 2016
    I am not sure which letter of person this would be, but I think one of the silliest memes going around was a GIF of Chris Evans ripping up something with an image of the new Cap #1 superimposed on it. Which is fine, as such things go.

    But what is telling to me is the caption--
    ‪#‎NuffSaid‬.
    ‪#‎CaptainAmerica‬ ain't no ‪#‎Hydra‬ agent. It's only a matter of time before write Nick Spencer does the "big twist" and the ruse is revealed and Cap is back to his old patriotic self.
    That's not what I'm mad at. Im mad that it just all seems, well, gimmick-y.
    Everything in comics is all so conspiratorial these days. I miss the simple days of superheroes vs supervillains.

    Riiiight. Those 'simple days' of superheroes vs supervillains. Those good old days in the Marvel Universe. Because if there was something Jack, Stan, Steve, and the rest of the boys hated, it was some kind of GIMMICK or twist.

    Of course, by the third issue of Avengers, in 1964, the Hulk was fighting the rest of the Avengers. And within another year or so would change again, along interpersonal fault lines in the team. The First Family had their problems from the outset, with Ben being as much a source of tension, sometimes even an antagonist in stories- the tragic, misunderstood monster in their midst, as well as being a hero.

    Heaven knows in the good old days, Marvel superheroes would meet up and would IMMEDIATELY get along and never have some kind of contrived misunderstanding that would lead to a FIGHT. . .right?

    And surely the villain would never end up being someone you don't expect, like your friend, or your friend's dad! That kind of twist would be gimmicky. Next you'll tell me there are mysterious figures standing in the shadows, manipulating the heroes, to be revealed in a future issue.

    Oh, those good old, simpler days. I hope someone can come along and Make Marvel Comics Great Again.

    #NostalgiaForSomethingThatNeverWas

  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Remember when Wonder Dog mauled Marvin and Wendy in Teen Titans?

    Remember Baby May, and when she was a thing?

    Remember what Kyle & Yost did to Jay Guthrie, AKA Icarus?

    yeah, not every comic book story is good, and the WHOLE STORY sometimes takes years to be told. I'll pick it up in trade if Spencer redeems himself, but his Falcon Captain America so far hasn't been to my liking.

    Want a praise report? Nick Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man is awesome. So is his indie title, The Fix. You should check them out. Or as Brack would say, they probably both suck since I like them.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    From Dimension Z to Nazi...sigh...

  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    David_D said:

    I am not sure which letter of person this would be, but I think one of the silliest memes going around was a GIF of Chris Evans ripping up something with an image of the new Cap #1 superimposed on it. Which is fine, as such things go.

    But what is telling to me is the caption--

    ‪#‎NuffSaid‬.
    ‪#‎CaptainAmerica‬ ain't no ‪#‎Hydra‬ agent. It's only a matter of time before write Nick Spencer does the "big twist" and the ruse is revealed and Cap is back to his old patriotic self.
    That's not what I'm mad at. Im mad that it just all seems, well, gimmick-y.
    Everything in comics is all so conspiratorial these days. I miss the simple days of superheroes vs supervillains.

    Riiiight. Those 'simple days' of superheroes vs supervillains. Those good old days in the Marvel Universe. Because if there was something Jack, Stan, Steve, and the rest of the boys hated, it was some kind of GIMMICK or twist.

    Of course, by the third issue of Avengers, in 1964, the Hulk was fighting the rest of the Avengers. And within another year or so would change again, along interpersonal fault lines in the team. The First Family had their problems from the outset, with Ben being as much a source of tension, sometimes even an antagonist in stories- the tragic, misunderstood monster in their midst, as well as being a hero.

    Heaven knows in the good old days, Marvel superheroes would meet up and would IMMEDIATELY get along and never have some kind of contrived misunderstanding that would lead to a FIGHT. . .right?

    And surely the villain would never end up being someone you don't expect, like your friend, or your friend's dad! That kind of twist would be gimmicky. Next you'll tell me there are mysterious figures standing in the shadows, manipulating the heroes, to be revealed in a future issue.

    Oh, those good old, simpler days. I hope someone can come along and Make Marvel Comics Great Again.

    #NostalgiaForSomethingThatNeverWas



    Cap doesn't just rip apart firewood!



    M
  • SolitaireRoseSolitaireRose Posts: 1,445
    Brack said:

    In case anyone is reading this without knowing what happened, here is what you need to know about Steve Rogers: Captain America #1:

    + Steve Rogers had an abusive father growing up.

    + Steve’s mother, Sarah, is aided by a “Hydra Society” member one night after her husband beats her. She takes a pamphlet for Hydra’s New York chapter (emblazoned with a skull with tentacles).

    + In 2016, Red Skull is shown recruiting the next generation of Hydra by making several conservative viewpoints about Europe’s refugee crisis.

    + S.H.I.E.L.D. then locates Baron Zemo, which prompts Captain America, Jack Flag, and Free Spirit to the lawless city of Bagalia.

    + Jack Flag disregards Cap’s orders and assists in confronting Zemo in the villain’s jet.

    + Captain America laments Jack Flag’s decision and then throws Jack Flag out a cargo drop to his death.

    + The issue ends with Captain America saying “Hail Hydra” to Doctor Erik Selvig, a scientist Zemo held hostage in an attempt to find the sentient Cosmic Cube known as Kobik.

    Sounds a little like Nazi fan-fiction.

    The abusive father was established in Remender's run. Up until then Steve's father was never mentioned.

    Nope. Steve Gerber had a story about Steve's father being abusive that was quickly papered over in the late 70's.

    Guess that wallpaper peeled off.

  • SolitaireRoseSolitaireRose Posts: 1,445
    What is funny to me is how few people are thinking about the incredibly cool story possibilities here. You have the most beloved and trusted hero in the MU is now working for the other side, and WE KNOW IT.

    Seeing other character's reactions, watching them put together the pieces, watching hwo Cap plays mental chess through all of this has me excited.

    The other thing that is funny to me is that it shows no one paid any attention at all to the big Avengers Pleasant Hill crossover they just finished up.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868

    Brack said:

    In case anyone is reading this without knowing what happened, here is what you need to know about Steve Rogers: Captain America #1:

    + Steve Rogers had an abusive father growing up.

    + Steve’s mother, Sarah, is aided by a “Hydra Society” member one night after her husband beats her. She takes a pamphlet for Hydra’s New York chapter (emblazoned with a skull with tentacles).

    + In 2016, Red Skull is shown recruiting the next generation of Hydra by making several conservative viewpoints about Europe’s refugee crisis.

    + S.H.I.E.L.D. then locates Baron Zemo, which prompts Captain America, Jack Flag, and Free Spirit to the lawless city of Bagalia.

    + Jack Flag disregards Cap’s orders and assists in confronting Zemo in the villain’s jet.

    + Captain America laments Jack Flag’s decision and then throws Jack Flag out a cargo drop to his death.

    + The issue ends with Captain America saying “Hail Hydra” to Doctor Erik Selvig, a scientist Zemo held hostage in an attempt to find the sentient Cosmic Cube known as Kobik.

    Sounds a little like Nazi fan-fiction.

    The abusive father was established in Remender's run. Up until then Steve's father was never mentioned.

    Nope. Steve Gerber had a story about Steve's father being abusive that was quickly papered over in the late 70's.

    Guess that wallpaper peeled off.

    You better get down that wiki post haste!
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    This is clearly Spencer injecting another slam at the GOP. There's a movement to have Steve come out as gay the same week as its revealed he's a villain.

    M
  • hauberkhauberk Posts: 1,511
    Matt said:

    This is clearly Spencer injecting another slam at the GOP. There's a movement to have Steve come out as gay the same week as its revealed he's a villain.

    M

    Clearly, if those two elements are related, then it's actually supporting the GOP and their current positions.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    edited May 2016

    What is funny to me is how few people are thinking about the incredibly cool story possibilities here. You have the most beloved and trusted hero in the MU is now working for the other side, and WE KNOW IT.

    This is just utterly familiar and not a novel approach at all. Didn't this sort of thing also kind of happen in the Skrull Invasion? This is just comic clickbait, as I said. And as for this being Spencer's commentary on the current political landscape, I'm sure there are people on here that agree with his politics (unless they support Sanders or Trump), but Spencer's approach here, especially with the Red Skull speech is uttely hamfisted preaching.

    Look, we all know how comics work. He’s a Skrull, or a triple agent, or these are implanted memories, or it’s a time travel switcheroo, or, or, or. There’s a thousand ways Marvel can undo this reveal—and they will, of course, because they’re not about to just throw away a multi-billion dollar piece of IP. Steve Rogers is not going to stay Hydra any more than Superman stayed dead.

    But Nazis are the perpetrators of unspeakable, uncountable, very real atrocities. This is a betrayal. Perhaps only a Jewish person can understand this.

    Captain America comics of decades past wouldn't fly today because of how jingoistic they were. Here, we have a writer giving us his Twitter feed illustrations. There's no nuance, no balance, just blatant myopia that doesn't offer insight or encourage dialogue. It demonizes and stereotypes and lacks substance.

    image
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    hauberk said:

    Matt said:

    This is clearly Spencer injecting another slam at the GOP. There's a movement to have Steve come out as gay the same week as its revealed he's a villain.

    M

    Clearly, if those two elements are related, then it's actually supporting the GOP and their current positions.
    It'll be a satire piece to show the ridiculousness of villianizing the gay community.

    M
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Matt said:

    hauberk said:

    Matt said:

    This is clearly Spencer injecting another slam at the GOP. There's a movement to have Steve come out as gay the same week as its revealed he's a villain.

    M

    Clearly, if those two elements are related, then it's actually supporting the GOP and their current positions.
    It'll be a satire piece to show the ridiculousness of villianizing the gay community.

    M
    As long as no one thinks it's satire when a major comic villain espouses the feelings of those who are tired of unfettered illegal immigrants crossing into their borders. I doubt that would play well in Germany right now.
  • SolitaireRoseSolitaireRose Posts: 1,445

    What is funny to me is how few people are thinking about the incredibly cool story possibilities here. You have the most beloved and trusted hero in the MU is now working for the other side, and WE KNOW IT.

    This is just utterly familiar and not a novel approach at all. Didn't this sort of thing also kind of happen in the Skrull Invasion? This is just comic clickbait, as I said. And as for this being Spencer's commentary on the current political landscape, I'm sure there are people on here that agree with his politics (unless they support Sanders or Trump), but Spencer's approach here, especially with the Red Skull speech is uttely hamfisted preaching.

    Look, we all know how comics work. He’s a Skrull, or a triple agent, or these are implanted memories, or it’s a time travel switcheroo, or, or, or. There’s a thousand ways Marvel can undo this reveal—and they will, of course, because they’re not about to just throw away a multi-billion dollar piece of IP. Steve Rogers is not going to stay Hydra any more than Superman stayed dead.

    But Nazis are the perpetrators of unspeakable, uncountable, very real atrocities. This is a betrayal. Perhaps only a Jewish person can understand this.

    Captain America comics of decades past wouldn't fly today because of how jingoistic they were. Here, we have a writer giving us his Twitter feed illustrations. There's no nuance, no balance, just blatant myopia that doesn't offer insight or encourage dialogue. It demonizes and stereotypes and lacks substance.

    image
    After reading tons of stories by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (both Jewish, BTW) where the Red Skull either bent Captain America to his will, forced him to do his bidding, or switched minds with him, I will respectfully disagree. This is the old "Hero becomes the lackey of the villain, fights back and defeats him" story told in a new way.

    And to call is clickbait doesn't fly for me either. Was it Clickbait when Galactus showed up to devour the world? Was it clickbait when Spider-Man is out of webfluid and is plummeting to his death? When Robin got eaten by a giant clam?

    It's a hook. Just like when Alex Trebek and Jesse Ventura showed up as the REAL investigators on the X-Files, or Buffy woke up in an asylum and discovered all of her adventures were mental illness.
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748

    And to call is clickbait doesn't fly for me either. Was it Clickbait when Galactus showed up to devour the world? Was it clickbait when Spider-Man is out of webfluid and is plummeting to his death? When Robin got eaten by a giant clam?

    It's a hook. Just like when Alex Trebek and Jesse Ventura showed up as the REAL investigators on the X-Files, or Buffy woke up in an asylum and discovered all of her adventures were mental illness.

    As far as I'm concerned, “clickbait” and “hook” are basically the same thing, just with different connotations. “Clickbait” uses the same concept as the “hook,” but has come to mean “all hype with no payoff.” But to be fair, lots of traditional hooks could be considered all hype and no payoff. It all depends on how the hooks are executed and resolved.

    Obviously, this hook hasn’t sunk for a lot of readers. By the same token, I'm sure it will reel in a pretty good catch. As @mwhitt80 can tell you, not every fish strikes at the same bait.



    Okay, I’m probably taking the analogy too far now.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967


    Okay, I’m probably taking the analogy too far now.

    I rather enjoyed it. Then again, I have a penchant for hyperbole. It's why I like comics, well, most comics.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited May 2016
    I would say that this story is only clickbait insofar as it seems like a lot of the people most upset by it are basing that reaction on other people's reporting on what happened in that comic, rather than on their own experience of the comic itself.

    So, to them, the whole matter is clickbait, because they are not the readership in the first place.

    But hooks in comics? Last page shocking reveals to get you to come back and find out what happens next? That's been the Merry Marvel way from the beginning.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    edited May 2016
    It's a trope for sure, but I have a feeling with the abysmal sales numbers of the Falcon Captain America title, and potentially low pre-orders of this $5 comic, Marvel wanted to get some big media hype and bump up the numbers - which of course, is comics business 101.

    Still not a fan of this story so far, and I'm budget conscious enough to bail out on this title, my fandom of the "Star-Spangled Avenger" notwithstanding. I don't mind being in the minority of my distaste for this new reveal.
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