A relatively unknown treat at Baskin Robbins doesn't quite compare to Captain America fighting for the enemy and killing off other patriotic heroes. As for Twitter outrage, I wouldn't know. But there was plenty of mockery (example 1, example 2) at the time. Still, I don't think BK had the same level of marketing heft then that Marvel does now so it didn't get enough press.
As for speaking for Jews, if you don't see how Jews' feelings matter here, remember, Captain America is literally Erskine’s golem. Erskine was a Jewish man who was forced out Germany, and he gave a good man the ability to become a super soldier, because Jews needed hope. Even Joe Simon's son understands this.
If the race equivalence is a problem for you, then substitute the KKK for the Hatemonger, which is also a Hitler analog. My point is that this displayed the anti-thesis of the beloved character, showing him siding with a group associated with bigotry while brutally killing a comrade in arms - this is the comparison. It was meant to point out why this cheap twist is, or could be perceived as, a problem.
I never said that Jews' feelings here don't matter. Just that I don't presume to speak for what they all think. Nor do I think they all think the one thing or other.
EDIT- To be clear, if I am following your premise right, the public is so aware that Hydra=Nazi, that all Cap has to do is look at the reader and say, "Hail Hydra", and now we are to know that means, "I am now a Nazi." I don't think that is true. "Hail Hydra" might permeate the culture as 'secretly a bad guy', but I don't think they read it as a Nazi salute.
I think Hydra, to most people, sounds like super-baddies. A comic book thing from comic books and comic book movies. And that is why there are toys of Hydra goons, and there was a "Hydra Force Sundae" because most people don't look at that and think, "Nazi Force Sundae". I did, but that is because I was devotedly reading the OHOTMU as it came out when I was 10.
As for marketing heft-- I don't know, but would guess, that Baskin Robbins does more to advertise their ice cream to the general public than Marvel does to advertise a single comic book. For example, we have a lot of combination Dunkin' Donuts/ Baskin Robbins in New York City. So I remember the summer that First Avenger came out, every time I would go in for an iced coffee, I would chuckle at what- to me- were posters and big menu board ads for Nazi ice cream. They also had some subway poster ads, as they do outdoor advertising. I have never seen an ad for a particular comic book outside of a comic book store since, I think, there were those G.I. Joe comic book commercials back when Regan was president.
To be fair, though, that is just a guess, though. I don't actually know what BK spends to advertise a featured sundae vs. what Marvel spends to advertise a particular comic book.
And, yes, if your example substituted Hatemonger for the KKK, and at the end of a Black Panther comic he looked at the 'camera' and said, "More hate for the Hatemonger!" or whatever his slogan is, making it more like that last page from the Cap comic I have seen (again, I have not read the whole issue, so I don't know the context the way you do if you have read the issue. Have you read it?) then that would be more of an equivalence.
You would just have to leave out the actual historical group, iconic clothes of the group, and all the history of the N-word that was from the hypothetical you asked me about. And then, yes, I would see more of of the point of your comparison.
I don't see all those as small changes, though. Because, like Nazi to Hydra, to go from KKK to Hate Monger is to go from real world to make believe.
You admit, as a comics fan, that you knew that Baskin Robbins was marketing "Nazi ice cream", so you probably don't fault some Jewish comic fans for being upset at this shocking twist. I also suspect you'd be understanding if some African-Americans were critical with a twist showing T'Challa siding with Hatemonger, in spite of your protests that he's just a "make-believe" character.
In this "make-believe" world, Captain America's first noteworthy act was to punch real-Nazi leader, Hitler, in the face. And, as the world celebrates Cap's 75th Anniversary this year, and a blockbuster movie in raking in millions in theaters worldwide, this beloved icon's history is being prominently featured in the mainstream pop-culture media. Alas, that historical Nazi-punch is also getting a LOT of attention.
With comic origins being what they are, and the publisher shying away from Nazi associations to Hydra, even the first Captain America movie (2011) associated Hydra as merely an offshoot of Nazism and Hitler, so it's not much of a stretch to see how the general public does the same. So, if the generally known history of the character's origins matter to people, for many people (not just Jewish comic readers) it may be difficult to separate the two. So, while our perspectives may vary, I think we can both agree that people should matter more than comic sales, they just often don't.
You admit, as a comics fan, that you knew that Baskin Robbins was marketing "Nazi ice cream", so you probably don't fault some Jewish comic fans for being upset at this shocking twist. I also suspect you'd be understanding if some African-Americans were critical with a twist showing T'Challa siding with Hatemonger, in spite of your protests that he's just a make-believe character.
In this "make-believe" world, Captain America's first noteworthy act was to punch real-Nazi leader Hitler in the face. And, with the world is celebrating Cap's 75th Anniversary this year, and a blockbuster movie in theaters worldwide, this beloved icon's history is prominently featured in the mainstream pop-culture media. Alas, that historical Nazi-punch is also getting a LOT of attention.
With the origins being what they are, even the first Captain America movie associated Hitler and Hydra so it's not a stretch that the mainstream public does the same. Then, if the generally known history of the character's origins matter , for many (not just Jewish readers) it will be difficult to separate the two. So, while our perspectives may vary, I think we can both agree that people should matter more than comic sales, they just often don't.
So, when "Hail Hydra" memes were proliferating a few years ago around the time of the Winter Soldier movie, do you think most people thought that meant "I am a Nazi"? I don't recall that being how those memes felt.
Did anyone at the time ask Gary Shandling how he felt about playing a Nazi?
I think if Marvel turned Captain America into a Nazi that would be a pretty questionable thing to do. But that is actually not what they've done. I think there is actually a cultural difference between what Hydra in 2016 is supposed to actually be in the world of the story. And that those who are feeling, and looking to share, their outrage on this have probably had to do a lot of explaining to even get the people who- like many of them (and you?) didn't read the comic with this story- why there is old comic book history that would indicate Hydra=Nazi, even though across years of current stories in different platforms it is not that simple.
I also think that, if we are going to get to the macro level of profits vs. people's feelings, I think we have to get more specific. Are we talking about the feelings of the people buying and reading this comic? Because so far the only version of Cap that is involved in this Hydra reveal story is the comic one. There is no indication the brand has changed across all platforms. And that is why in my much earlier response I suggested they should let the market decide rather than some in-house standards and practices person as you were suggesting who is there to try to predict and orevent outrage. If the comic readers don't like this comic story they will stop buying the comic story and the comic will change. That is the market based solution that is the market based solution. If what you're saying is that they should be more concerned about the feelings of people on the Internet who i'm not even reading the comic in the first place or comics at all than the actual, market based responses of the readers,then no thanks. I think they should continue to business of making comics they think people want to read and let those readers decide rather than trying to predict and hew to an idea of what will or won't upset the people hear about the stories secondhand.
Ahh... okay, so you're perfectly fine with T'Challa teaming up with Hatemonger and any Jewish people upset over this #HydraCap twist should just let the market critique the comic, not them, especially if they didn't read it.
Got it.
Instead of being snarky, let me share this:
"Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say, 'No, *you* move'." Margaret "Peggy" Carter, founder of S.H.I.E.L.D.
You don't have to agree with me, or share my perspective, to respect it. I think everyone should have the courage to speak out on the issues that matter to them. Participate in discussion as well as civic life as citizens, not spectators. We are all more important than what we have. I believe this makes our nation stronger.
The association is everywhere. You may not see it as a slap in the face to fans (Brevoort's words, not mine), but many do. Their concerns should be respected, not mocked.
Ahh... okay, so you're perfectly fine with T'Challa teaming up with Hatemonger and any Jewish people upset over this #HydraCap twist should just let the market critique the comic, not them, especially if they didn't read it.
Got it.
No. What am I saying is actually what I said. It is available above.
Ahh... okay, so you're perfectly fine with T'Challa teaming up with Hatemonger
As the first chapter of a story? Sure. I am also OK with Jesse Ventura and Alex Trebek being government agents in charge of investigating X-Files, Spock being killed because Saavak engaged 3 Klingon Starships, Luke Skywalker being turned to the Dark Side of the Force, Reed Richards being killed by Doctor Doom, Cap swearing loyalty to the Red Skull, Captain America being replaced by Bucky, Batman being killed by Omega Beams, Superman's head being turned into that of a lion, Robin dying while Batman was stranded on a far off desert planet, or the Enterprise being blown up with everyone on board.
And so on and so on.
I get that you are upset. But I just can't grasp why you keep thinking this is anything more than the Hook for a story. It must be that I can't put myself in yoru shoes.
I get that you are upset. But I just can't grasp why you keep thinking this is anything more than the Hook for a story. It must be that I can't put myself in yoru shoes.
So I would take you back to the T'Challa and the KKK comparison. Do you dismiss it as just make-believe and a false equivalence?
I get that you are upset. But I just can't grasp why you keep thinking this is anything more than the Hook for a story. It must be that I can't put myself in yoru shoes.
So I would take you back to the T'Challa and the KKK comparison. Do you dismiss it as just make-believe and a false equivalence?
Neither. If that was the first chapter of the story, I'd want to see where it goes. I try VERY hard to save my judgment for the end. I read a LOT of crime novels, and the good ones start with a hook to make you say "What the hell?"
I mean, come on, The Man With The Golden Gun started with Bond working for SPECTRE and attempting to kill M.
Granted, I am worried that in a few years, we'll see an Ambush Bug Silk Specter team up over at DC, but...
Yes, I understand what people like @SolitaireRose are saying. It's a story, and it's early at that. Like he says, Bond started a story working for SPECTRE - his sworn enemy. I have no doubt that everything with Cap will be corrected and it will all be explained away through the course of the tale.
On the other hand I completely get what @bralinator is saying. Cap being Hydra(Nazi) isn't the same as Bond being SPECTRE..it's more akin to, as he said, Black Panther siding with the KKK. Cap is an ideal, an image of what is right with America. A symbol of the sacrifice our country, and others, paid to free parts of the world from evil empires..
Ahh... okay, so you're perfectly fine with T'Challa teaming up with Hatemonger and any Jewish people upset over this #HydraCap twist should just let the market critique the comic, not them, especially if they didn't read it.
Got it.
Instead of being snarky, let me share this:
"Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say, 'No, *you* move'." Margaret "Peggy" Carter, founder of S.H.I.E.L.D.
You don't have to agree with me, or share my perspective, to respect it. I think everyone should have the courage to speak out on the issues that matter to them. Participate in discussion as well as civic life as citizens, not spectators. We are all more important than what we have. I believe this makes our nation stronger.
The association is everywhere. You may not see it as a slap in the face to fans (Brevoort's words, not mine), but many do. Their concerns should be respected, not mocked.
To address the edited response - I am not sure why that is being directed at me, as I have neither mocked nor disrespected. Nor have I suggested that anyone should not have the right to speak up.
What I did say was that, rather than having an in house person whose job it is to predict and squash stories that people on the Internet might object to if they trend and people tell them about it- which seemed to be your suggestion but I may have that wrong- they should publish for their readers and let the response of their readers- the most invested stake holders in the comics- guide them. To me, the former is publishing in a climate of fear and letting the tail wag the dog. The latter is continuing to tell new stories that, you hope, will excite, entertain, and sure, sometimes provoke readers into wondering (as their current tag line for house ads for issues past #1 asks) "What happens next?"
I am not calling for anyone to not feel or voice their feelings. But I also don't think that creators should be stifled by someone whose whole job is to be risk adverse based on outrage that might happen. Comics as a medium are nimble. And responsive. They can course correct quickly. Cap was a wolf once, Jeremy, and one time was addicted to the dope. These things will get tried when you've in in several funnybooks a month.
Is it great that Cap is an important icon? Sure. But he is also a player in monthly make-believe. If he is too special to ever have a story that casts doubt on his intentions for even a story arc, well then maybe they should just canonize him and be done with it. Build a statue, put him in a museum, and walk away. But if he is still going to be in current stories than all the wacky temporary things that happen to other characters are fair game. And, if the actual readership objects, they will vote with their dollars and be heard. And if they don't, well, ultimately they are the main stakeholders when it comes to the Cap in the comics, so they deserve to be respected, too.
If Cap is so powerful an icon, do you really believe what he represents could be harmed by a month, or even a year, of comic book stories? I love comics, clearly. But I also think we need to keep perspective of how they are now just one piece of the presence of these characters in the culture.
I understand people brushing this off as “it’s a stunt.” Of course it’s a stunt, but it’s an incredibly offensive one, which is what matters. Amazing that even though Tom Brevoort himself says this would be "like slapping people in the face!" people are still scolding long-time fans or Jewish comic readers for being upset. Again, I refer you to the T'Challa siding with the KKK comparison if you need an example of how offensive this can be for some people.
So it's the first comic in an arc... and your point? Does that mean people should we stop reviewing all first-issues now because there's more to the story? I totally get that it works for some people because you got to the last page of this $5 comic and "BOOM!" you absolutely have to buy the next issue to see what happens, that's comic book sales 101. But telling people to hold their negative opinion until the whole story plays out is a bit too cavalier for my sensibilities, and again, offensive to some people. This is just a disgusting and cheap twist to me. Obviously not everyone here shares that opinion.
I've begun to trade wait on Marvel stuff now, I've been burned so many times in recent years. So maybe I should stop commenting and let this thread breathe and grow with other positive or negative comments. I've beaten this horse to death.
I can wait this out until the series gets a new volume and creative team. I'm NOT getting issue #2 and have no intention of supporting the Nick Spencer Cap series any further. Which sucks because I enjoyed so many of Spencer's works. If this title scratches your itch, enjoy it. As I'm oft to say, your mileage may vary. I don't need to know how Nick Spencer is going to "fix" this, I don't even care.
I'm concerned because I'm not getting an issue beyond #1 (I only planned to pick up the first issue), so I'll have concluded my Cap reading with him as a Hydra agent!
I'm concerned because I'm not getting an issue beyond #1 (I only planned to pick up the first issue), so I'll have concluded my Cap reading with him as a Hydra agent!
M
I'm pretty sure you will get a future story where this is resolved and in the past at some point.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
I'm not sure how definitively ending a universe and then starting a whole new one from day one fails to resolve issues but, no, I think the only Ultimate Universe title that sold like the 616 version for any length of time was Ultimate Spider-man. However, if you end the 616, the new line of books wouldn't be competing for sales with the 616 like the Ultimate line was.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
I'm not sure how definitively ending a universe and then starting a whole new one from day one fails to resolve issues but, no, I think the only Ultimate Universe title that sold like the 616 version for any length of time was Ultimate Spider-man. However, if you end the 616, the new line of books wouldn't be competing for sales with the 616 like the Ultimate line was.
I always valued the high issue numbers of long running series. It's why I despise new "volumes" of titles.
New reboot means issue space to revise origins. And in this era, origin stories won't be 1 issue, it'll be 6-8 issues. We'll get tweaked origins like Batman Zero Year or revisions like N52's Wonder Woman.
Reboots mean everything is back in play. Introducing Miles Warren becomes "when do we get the Jackal & clones." When we do, it'll either be different for different sake or the same as the original.
I like how writers can give us new stuff & call back to stories of yesteryear too. If it's a call back to a story I've read, it's great for that continuity reminder. If I haven't read it, then I become motivated to.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
I'm not sure how definitively ending a universe and then starting a whole new one from day one fails to resolve issues but, no, I think the only Ultimate Universe title that sold like the 616 version for any length of time was Ultimate Spider-man. However, if you end the 616, the new line of books wouldn't be competing for sales with the 616 like the Ultimate line was.
I always valued the high issue numbers of long running series. It's why I despise new "volumes" of titles.
New reboot means issue space to revise origins. And in this era, origin stories won't be 1 issue, it'll be 6-8 issues. We'll get tweaked origins like Batman Zero Year or revisions like N52's Wonder Woman.
Reboots mean everything is back in play. Introducing Miles Warren becomes "when do we get the Jackal & clones." When we do, it'll either be different for different sake or the same as the original.
I like how writers can give us new stuff & call back to stories of yesteryear too. If it's a call back to a story I've read, it's great for that continuity reminder. If I haven't read it, then I become motivated to.
M
I totally get your perspective on this. Some of my favorite runs of all time came out of the original 'Crisis' and then all new mistakes were made, like 'Emerald Twilight', which then led to endless retconning again anyway. But I still wouldn't mind seeing Marvel try. Hopefully without the clone saga the second time around, or sex slave Gwen, or the Aunt May double, or the robot parents...
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
of the original 4 Ultimate Titles, Spiderman, FF & Ultimates consistently outsold their 616 counterpart. Ultimate X-men was usually higher than Uncanny (which was the top selling x-men book) though some months Uncanny beat it but usually not by much. After New X-men debuted, it typically outsold ultimate x-men.
The Ultimate line didn't start dipping in sales until it lost Bendis and Millar to the 616 universe, where they would basically redefine the 616, in many ways to be more like the Ultimate line, at least in tone if not continuity.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
I'm not sure how definitively ending a universe and then starting a whole new one from day one fails to resolve issues but, no, I think the only Ultimate Universe title that sold like the 616 version for any length of time was Ultimate Spider-man. However, if you end the 616, the new line of books wouldn't be competing for sales with the 616 like the Ultimate line was.
I always valued the high issue numbers of long running series. It's why I despise new "volumes" of titles.
New reboot means issue space to revise origins. And in this era, origin stories won't be 1 issue, it'll be 6-8 issues. We'll get tweaked origins like Batman Zero Year or revisions like N52's Wonder Woman.
Reboots mean everything is back in play. Introducing Miles Warren becomes "when do we get the Jackal & clones." When we do, it'll either be different for different sake or the same as the original.
I like how writers can give us new stuff & call back to stories of yesteryear too. If it's a call back to a story I've read, it's great for that continuity reminder. If I haven't read it, then I become motivated to.
M
I totally get your perspective on this. Some of my favorite runs of all time came out of the original 'Crisis' and then all new mistakes were made, like 'Emerald Twilight', which then led to endless retconning again anyway. But I still wouldn't mind seeing Marvel try. Hopefully without the clone saga the second time around, or sex slave Gwen, or the Aunt May double, or the robot parents...
Not that I'm reading Marvel to begin with, but I'd hate for them to "try" it. I'm not certain DC has been successful with it.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
of the original 4 Ultimate Titles, Spiderman, FF & Ultimates consistently outsold their 616 counterpart. Ultimate X-men was usually higher than Uncanny (which was the top selling x-men book) though some months Uncanny beat it but usually not by much. After New X-men debuted, it typically outsold ultimate x-men.
The Ultimate line didn't start dipping in sales until it lost Bendis and Millar to the 616 universe, where they would basically redefine the 616, in many ways to be more like the Ultimate line, at least in tone if not continuity.
Weird they wouldn't have just stopped the 616 titles for the better selling reboots.
I always valued the high issue numbers of long running series. It's why I despise new "volumes" of titles.
New reboot means issue space to revise origins. And in this era, origin stories won't be 1 issue, it'll be 6-8 issues. We'll get tweaked origins like Batman Zero Year or revisions like N52's Wonder Woman.
Reboots mean everything is back in play. Introducing Miles Warren becomes "when do we get the Jackal & clones." When we do, it'll either be different for different sake or the same as the original.
I like how writers can give us new stuff & call back to stories of yesteryear too. If it's a call back to a story I've read, it's great for that continuity reminder. If I haven't read it, then I become motivated to.
I'm in full agreement with this perspective @Matt. I'm over the renumbering and rebooting. Other than Empress, the only things I'm picking up from Marvel are the occasional omnibus, Epic collection, or tpb these days. The last time if felt like anyone was willing to cleverly tackle continuity was Avengers Forever. What a fun series.
Lately at Marvel, at least with the legacy characters, it feels like the current mission isn't to make readers happy. Instead, the goal seems to be fueling sales by tapping into fan anger while treating Peter Parker, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Thor, et al like meat puppets they can upset the apple cart and just start a new volume - even sweep stories under the rug they don't know how to address.
I'm apprehensively hopeful with what DC is doing with Rebirth, but this is a two year story, I've heard, so if it stays fun, I may not mind whether or not they stick the landing. With Marvel, I'm not interested in being slapped in the face anymore.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
The first few years, yes. And they all sold very well until the "Ultimatum" storyline, when all the books came back with a $3.99 price tag and new creators working on them, the sales never recovered.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
of the original 4 Ultimate Titles, Spiderman, FF & Ultimates consistently outsold their 616 counterpart. Ultimate X-men was usually higher than Uncanny (which was the top selling x-men book) though some months Uncanny beat it but usually not by much. After New X-men debuted, it typically outsold ultimate x-men.
The Ultimate line didn't start dipping in sales until it lost Bendis and Millar to the 616 universe, where they would basically redefine the 616, in many ways to be more like the Ultimate line, at least in tone if not continuity.
Weird they wouldn't have just stopped the 616 titles for the better selling reboots.
M
There were a LOT of rumors of Marvel doing it at the time, but the Ultimate line was all about tying in with the movies and having product for the people who watched the movies to buy. When it because so big, they just pulled the creators over to "refresh" the main line, and, IMHO, lost the idea behind the line itself.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
of the original 4 Ultimate Titles, Spiderman, FF & Ultimates consistently outsold their 616 counterpart. Ultimate X-men was usually higher than Uncanny (which was the top selling x-men book) though some months Uncanny beat it but usually not by much. After New X-men debuted, it typically outsold ultimate x-men.
The Ultimate line didn't start dipping in sales until it lost Bendis and Millar to the 616 universe, where they would basically redefine the 616, in many ways to be more like the Ultimate line, at least in tone if not continuity.
Weird they wouldn't have just stopped the 616 titles for the better selling reboots.
M
Why would they? Why sell one thing when you can sell two? As i said, Uncanny X-men was still a top 10 seller at this time, and the other books were still selling well, just not as well as their Ultimate counterparts. canceling those 4 books would have left quite a hole in the 616, and moving the new books to the 616 would have defeated their purpose. The primary reason for the Ultimate line was Bill Jemas thought the existing continuity was challenging to new readers, and that was one of his chief goals, to get comics ion the hands of an audience beyond the hardcore fans, many of whom had departed during the 90s
It was less about tying into movies (when it launched only the first x-men movie had come out) but in many ways was about providing a template for movies. Marvel execs outside of publishing had long wanted books that they could use to promote the characters as modern film properties. Origin stories from the 60s didn’t seem to connect with the studios, and they wanted material they could hand to a producer as a simple single example. This was part of the thinking behind even the Heroes Reborn reboot. create something film friendly. Its no coincidence that many aspects of the films reflect the Ultimate line more than the 616 line, especially in term of visuals and tone, if not necessarily characterization.
Why doesn't Marvel finally just do a hard reboot? In the meantime, embrace the storylines that work for you and just let the ones that don't go. There's been way too much retconning to keep track of it all or to care.
I'm not certain a hard reboot resolves issues. To some extent, the Ultimate line was similar to a reboot. Did sales ever consistently top the 616 books of the same titles?
M
of the original 4 Ultimate Titles, Spiderman, FF & Ultimates consistently outsold their 616 counterpart. Ultimate X-men was usually higher than Uncanny (which was the top selling x-men book) though some months Uncanny beat it but usually not by much. After New X-men debuted, it typically outsold ultimate x-men.
The Ultimate line didn't start dipping in sales until it lost Bendis and Millar to the 616 universe, where they would basically redefine the 616, in many ways to be more like the Ultimate line, at least in tone if not continuity.
Weird they wouldn't have just stopped the 616 titles for the better selling reboots.
M
Why would they? Why sell one thing when you can sell two? As i said, Uncanny X-men was still a top 10 seller at this time, and the other books were still selling well, just not as well as their Ultimate counterparts. canceling those 4 books would have left quite a hole in the 616, and moving the new books to the 616 would have defeated their purpose. The primary reason for the Ultimate line was Bill Jemas thought the existing continuity was challenging to new readers, and that was one of his chief goals, to get comics ion the hands of an audience beyond the hardcore fans, many of whom had departed during the 90s
It was less about tying into movies (when it launched only the first x-men movie had come out) but in many ways was about providing a template for movies. Marvel execs outside of publishing had long wanted books that they could use to promote the characters as modern film properties. Origin stories from the 60s didn’t seem to connect with the studios, and they wanted material they could hand to a producer as a simple single example. This was part of the thinking behind even the Heroes Reborn reboot. create something film friendly. Its no coincidence that many aspects of the films reflect the Ultimate line more than the 616 line, especially in term of visuals and tone, if not necessarily characterization.
“I always valued the high issue numbers of long running series. It's why I despise new "volumes" of titles.”
i have never understood why people care so much about numbers. The number is nothing more than a small ink squiggle on the front, and another in the indicia. Any sense of legacy is largely nostalgia combined with economics and marketing. In the golden age it was not uncommon for a book to completely change its content, title and direction but not its numbering. This was primarily because postal regulations meant expense and paperwork to launch a new title. It was cheaper and easier to just change one title into another, rather than end one and begin another. This also sustained a marketing idea that higher numbers would be interpreted as better. If something had lasted a hundred issues it must be good? This kind of thinking may have made sense to younger readers, but as fandom evolved, and the readership aged, they soon realized that a high issue number didn’t necessarily equate to a higher quality product. As the direct market emerged, it became apparent that philosophy didn’t really hold. With standard newsstand distribution, print runs were set by the publisher, and allocations by the distributor. Retail had little control over what title they received or how many. With the direct market this changed and retailers saw that #1 issues sold well, and proceeded to order far heavier on issue #1 than any other issue except perhaps anniversary issues.
And numbering has always been kind of arbitrary. As i mentioned titles often just continued the numbering of other titles. It never made sense that the numbering for Thor and Hulk was higher than the FF even though the FF was first. they picked up the numbering of Journey Into Mystery and Tales to Astonish, even though the first 82 issues of JIM didn’t have Thor and the first 58 issues of TTA didn’t have the Hulk. Stranger still, The numbering for the Incredible Hulk, Included issue #1 of Tales to Astonsh, even though that comic didn’t feature the hulk, but it DIDN’T include Hulk #1 which did introduced him. Its not even applied evenly, Spider-man debuts in Amazing Fantasy #15, yet His next appearance is Amazing Spider-man #1 not Amazing Spider-man #16. It makes no sense
Captain America makes even less sense. His numbering continued that of Tales of Suspense, which he shared with iron Man. When they split them up Iron Man got a new #1 and cap got the numbering of TOS, which is strange as Iron Man and actually debuted in TOS and was in far more issues of TOS than Cap. It would have made mores sense to change the book to Iron Man with #100 and give Cap a #1. Or just pick up the numbering of Cap’s Golden Age series. When Marvel revived Cap in the 50s, that exactly what they did. The 1954 relaunch started with issue #76 picking up the numbering of the Golden Age series. of course Captain America Comics had changed its title to Captain America’s Weird Tales and become a horror anthology for its last couple of issue anyway.
DC did it too, When Flash got his own title again, it starts with 105, picking up the numbering of Flash Comics, yet when Green Lantern gets his silver age title, it starts at #1 and not at #39 (after the numbering of his solo series) or #103 (after the numbering of All American Comics, where he debuted) When his book is cancelled at #89, it starts again several years later at #90 rather than relaunching as #1.
for me all that counts is whether i like the content.
“I always valued the high issue numbers of long running series. It's why I despise new "volumes" of titles.”
i have never understood why people care so much about numbers. The number is nothing more than a small ink squiggle on the front, and another in the indicia. Any sense of legacy is largely nostalgia combined with economics and marketing. In the golden age it was not uncommon for a book to completely change its content, title and direction but not its numbering. This was primarily because postal regulations meant expense and paperwork to launch a new title. It was cheaper and easier to just change one title into another, rather than end one and begin another. This also sustained a marketing idea that higher numbers would be interpreted as better. If something had lasted a hundred issues it must be good? This kind of thinking may have made sense to younger readers, but as fandom evolved, and the readership aged, they soon realized that a high issue number didn’t necessarily equate to a higher quality product. As the direct market emerged, it became apparent that philosophy didn’t really hold. With standard newsstand distribution, print runs were set by the publisher, and allocations by the distributor. Retail had little control over what title they received or how many. With the direct market this changed and retailers saw that #1 issues sold well, and proceeded to order far heavier on issue #1 than any other issue except perhaps anniversary issues.
And numbering has always been kind of arbitrary. As i mentioned titles often just continued the numbering of other titles. It never made sense that the numbering for Thor and Hulk was higher than the FF even though the FF was first. they picked up the numbering of Journey Into Mystery and Tales to Astonish, even though the first 82 issues of JIM didn’t have Thor and the first 58 issues of TTA didn’t have the Hulk. Stranger still, The numbering for the Incredible Hulk, Included issue #1 of Tales to Astonsh, even though that comic didn’t feature the hulk, but it DIDN’T include Hulk #1 which did introduced him. Its not even applied evenly, Spider-man debuts in Amazing Fantasy #15, yet His next appearance is Amazing Spider-man #1 not Amazing Spider-man #16. It makes no sense
Captain America makes even less sense. His numbering continued that of Tales of Suspense, which he shared with iron Man. When they split them up Iron Man got a new #1 and cap got the numbering of TOS, which is strange as Iron Man and actually debuted in TOS and was in far more issues of TOS than Cap. It would have made mores sense to change the book to Iron Man with #100 and give Cap a #1. Or just pick up the numbering of Cap’s Golden Age series. When Marvel revived Cap in the 50s, that exactly what they did. The 1954 relaunch started with issue #76 picking up the numbering of the Golden Age series. of course Captain America Comics had changed its title to Captain America’s Weird Tales and become a horror anthology for its last couple of issue anyway.
DC did it too, When Flash got his own title again, it starts with 105, picking up the numbering of Flash Comics, yet when Green Lantern gets his silver age title, it starts at #1 and not at #39 (after the numbering of his solo series) or #103 (after the numbering of All American Comics, where he debuted) When his book is cancelled at #89, it starts again several years later at #90 rather than relaunching as #1.
for me all that counts is whether i like the content.
Comments
EDIT- To be clear, if I am following your premise right, the public is so aware that Hydra=Nazi, that all Cap has to do is look at the reader and say, "Hail Hydra", and now we are to know that means, "I am now a Nazi." I don't think that is true. "Hail Hydra" might permeate the culture as 'secretly a bad guy', but I don't think they read it as a Nazi salute.
I think Hydra, to most people, sounds like super-baddies. A comic book thing from comic books and comic book movies. And that is why there are toys of Hydra goons, and there was a "Hydra Force Sundae" because most people don't look at that and think, "Nazi Force Sundae". I did, but that is because I was devotedly reading the OHOTMU as it came out when I was 10.
As for marketing heft-- I don't know, but would guess, that Baskin Robbins does more to advertise their ice cream to the general public than Marvel does to advertise a single comic book. For example, we have a lot of combination Dunkin' Donuts/ Baskin Robbins in New York City. So I remember the summer that First Avenger came out, every time I would go in for an iced coffee, I would chuckle at what- to me- were posters and big menu board ads for Nazi ice cream. They also had some subway poster ads, as they do outdoor advertising. I have never seen an ad for a particular comic book outside of a comic book store since, I think, there were those G.I. Joe comic book commercials back when Regan was president.
To be fair, though, that is just a guess, though. I don't actually know what BK spends to advertise a featured sundae vs. what Marvel spends to advertise a particular comic book.
And, yes, if your example substituted Hatemonger for the KKK, and at the end of a Black Panther comic he looked at the 'camera' and said, "More hate for the Hatemonger!" or whatever his slogan is, making it more like that last page from the Cap comic I have seen (again, I have not read the whole issue, so I don't know the context the way you do if you have read the issue. Have you read it?) then that would be more of an equivalence.
You would just have to leave out the actual historical group, iconic clothes of the group, and all the history of the N-word that was from the hypothetical you asked me about. And then, yes, I would see more of of the point of your comparison.
I don't see all those as small changes, though. Because, like Nazi to Hydra, to go from KKK to Hate Monger is to go from real world to make believe.
In this "make-believe" world, Captain America's first noteworthy act was to punch real-Nazi leader, Hitler, in the face. And, as the world celebrates Cap's 75th Anniversary this year, and a blockbuster movie in raking in millions in theaters worldwide, this beloved icon's history is being prominently featured in the mainstream pop-culture media. Alas, that historical Nazi-punch is also getting a LOT of attention.
With comic origins being what they are, and the publisher shying away from Nazi associations to Hydra, even the first Captain America movie (2011) associated Hydra as merely an offshoot of Nazism and Hitler, so it's not much of a stretch to see how the general public does the same. So, if the generally known history of the character's origins matter to people, for many people (not just Jewish comic readers) it may be difficult to separate the two. So, while our perspectives may vary, I think we can both agree that people should matter more than comic sales, they just often don't.
Did anyone at the time ask Gary Shandling how he felt about playing a Nazi?
I think if Marvel turned Captain America into a Nazi that would be a pretty questionable thing to do. But that is actually not what they've done. I think there is actually a cultural difference between what Hydra in 2016 is supposed to actually be in the world of the story. And that those who are feeling, and looking to share, their outrage on this have probably had to do a lot of explaining to even get the people who- like many of them (and you?) didn't read the comic with this story- why there is old comic book history that would indicate Hydra=Nazi, even though across years of current stories in different platforms it is not that simple.
I also think that, if we are going to get to the macro level of profits vs. people's feelings, I think we have to get more specific. Are we talking about the feelings of the people buying and reading this comic? Because so far the only version of Cap that is involved in this Hydra reveal story is the comic one. There is no indication the brand has changed across all platforms. And that is why in my much earlier response I suggested they should let the market decide rather than some in-house standards and practices person as you were suggesting who is there to try to predict and orevent outrage. If the comic readers don't like this comic story they will stop buying the comic story and the comic will change. That is the market based solution that is the market based solution. If what you're saying is that they should be more concerned about the feelings of people on the Internet who i'm not even reading the comic in the first place or comics at all than the actual, market based responses of the readers,then no thanks. I think they should continue to business of making comics they think people want to read and let those readers decide rather than trying to predict and hew to an idea of what will or won't upset the people hear about the stories secondhand.
Ahh... okay, so you're perfectly fine with T'Challa teaming up with Hatemonger and any Jewish people upset over this #HydraCap twist should just let the market critique the comic, not them, especially if they didn't read it.
Got it.
Instead of being snarky, let me share this: You don't have to agree with me, or share my perspective, to respect it. I think everyone should have the courage to speak out on the issues that matter to them. Participate in discussion as well as civic life as citizens, not spectators. We are all more important than what we have. I believe this makes our nation stronger.
The association is everywhere. You may not see it as a slap in the face to fans (Brevoort's words, not mine), but many do. Their concerns should be respected, not mocked.
I think I will leave it at that.
And so on and so on.
I get that you are upset. But I just can't grasp why you keep thinking this is anything more than the Hook for a story. It must be that I can't put myself in yoru shoes.
I mean, come on, The Man With The Golden Gun started with Bond working for SPECTRE and attempting to kill M.
Granted, I am worried that in a few years, we'll see an Ambush Bug Silk Specter team up over at DC, but...
Yes, I understand what people like @SolitaireRose are saying. It's a story, and it's early at that. Like he says, Bond started a story working for SPECTRE - his sworn enemy. I have no doubt that everything with Cap will be corrected and it will all be explained away through the course of the tale.
On the other hand I completely get what @bralinator is saying. Cap being Hydra(Nazi) isn't the same as Bond being SPECTRE..it's more akin to, as he said, Black Panther siding with the KKK. Cap is an ideal, an image of what is right with America. A symbol of the sacrifice our country, and others, paid to free parts of the world from evil empires..
I dunno....
The association is everywhere. You may not see it as a slap in the face to fans (Brevoort's words, not mine), but many do. Their concerns should be respected, not mocked.
To address the edited response - I am not sure why that is being directed at me, as I have neither mocked nor disrespected. Nor have I suggested that anyone should not have the right to speak up.
What I did say was that, rather than having an in house person whose job it is to predict and squash stories that people on the Internet might object to if they trend and people tell them about it- which seemed to be your suggestion but I may have that wrong- they should publish for their readers and let the response of their readers- the most invested stake holders in the comics- guide them. To me, the former is publishing in a climate of fear and letting the tail wag the dog. The latter is continuing to tell new stories that, you hope, will excite, entertain, and sure, sometimes provoke readers into wondering (as their current tag line for house ads for issues past #1 asks) "What happens next?"
I am not calling for anyone to not feel or voice their feelings. But I also don't think that creators should be stifled by someone whose whole job is to be risk adverse based on outrage that might happen. Comics as a medium are nimble. And responsive. They can course correct quickly. Cap was a wolf once, Jeremy, and one time was addicted to the dope. These things will get tried when you've in in several funnybooks a month.
Is it great that Cap is an important icon? Sure. But he is also a player in monthly make-believe. If he is too special to ever have a story that casts doubt on his intentions for even a story arc, well then maybe they should just canonize him and be done with it. Build a statue, put him in a museum, and walk away. But if he is still going to be in current stories than all the wacky temporary things that happen to other characters are fair game. And, if the actual readership objects, they will vote with their dollars and be heard. And if they don't, well, ultimately they are the main stakeholders when it comes to the Cap in the comics, so they deserve to be respected, too.
If Cap is so powerful an icon, do you really believe what he represents could be harmed by a month, or even a year, of comic book stories? I love comics, clearly. But I also think we need to keep perspective of how they are now just one piece of the presence of these characters in the culture.
So it's the first comic in an arc... and your point? Does that mean people should we stop reviewing all first-issues now because there's more to the story? I totally get that it works for some people because you got to the last page of this $5 comic and "BOOM!" you absolutely have to buy the next issue to see what happens, that's comic book sales 101. But telling people to hold their negative opinion until the whole story plays out is a bit too cavalier for my sensibilities, and again, offensive to some people. This is just a disgusting and cheap twist to me. Obviously not everyone here shares that opinion.
I've begun to trade wait on Marvel stuff now, I've been burned so many times in recent years. So maybe I should stop commenting and let this thread breathe and grow with other positive or negative comments. I've beaten this horse to death.
I can wait this out until the series gets a new volume and creative team. I'm NOT getting issue #2 and have no intention of supporting the Nick Spencer Cap series any further. Which sucks because I enjoyed so many of Spencer's works. If this title scratches your itch, enjoy it. As I'm oft to say, your mileage may vary. I don't need to know how Nick Spencer is going to "fix" this, I don't even care.
M
Ambush Bug: Your costume is kinda flimsy. It doesn't protect you much against the elements.
Silk Spectre: And yours does?
Ambush Bug: Costume?
:)
M
New reboot means issue space to revise origins. And in this era, origin stories won't be 1 issue, it'll be 6-8 issues. We'll get tweaked origins like Batman Zero Year or revisions like N52's Wonder Woman.
Reboots mean everything is back in play. Introducing Miles Warren becomes "when do we get the Jackal & clones." When we do, it'll either be different for different sake or the same as the original.
I like how writers can give us new stuff & call back to stories of yesteryear too. If it's a call back to a story I've read, it's great for that continuity reminder. If I haven't read it, then I become motivated to.
M
The Ultimate line didn't start dipping in sales until it lost Bendis and Millar to the 616 universe, where they would basically redefine the 616, in many ways to be more like the Ultimate line, at least in tone if not continuity.
M
M
Lately at Marvel, at least with the legacy characters, it feels like the current mission isn't to make readers happy. Instead, the goal seems to be fueling sales by tapping into fan anger while treating Peter Parker, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Thor, et al like meat puppets they can upset the apple cart and just start a new volume - even sweep stories under the rug they don't know how to address.
I'm apprehensively hopeful with what DC is doing with Rebirth, but this is a two year story, I've heard, so if it stays fun, I may not mind whether or not they stick the landing. With Marvel, I'm not interested in being slapped in the face anymore.
It was less about tying into movies (when it launched only the first x-men movie had come out) but in many ways was about providing a template for movies. Marvel execs outside of publishing had long wanted books that they could use to promote the characters as modern film properties. Origin stories from the 60s didn’t seem to connect with the studios, and they wanted material they could hand to a producer as a simple single example. This was part of the thinking behind even the Heroes Reborn reboot. create something film friendly. Its no coincidence that many aspects of the films reflect the Ultimate line more than the 616 line, especially in term of visuals and tone, if not necessarily characterization.
M
i have never understood why people care so much about numbers. The number is nothing more than a small ink squiggle on the front, and another in the indicia. Any sense of legacy is largely nostalgia combined with economics and marketing. In the golden age it was not uncommon for a book to completely change its content, title and direction but not its numbering. This was primarily because postal regulations meant expense and paperwork to launch a new title. It was cheaper and easier to just change one title into another, rather than end one and begin another. This also sustained a marketing idea that higher numbers would be interpreted as better. If something had lasted a hundred issues it must be good? This kind of thinking may have made sense to younger readers, but as fandom evolved, and the readership aged, they soon realized that a high issue number didn’t necessarily equate to a higher quality product. As the direct market emerged, it became apparent that philosophy didn’t really hold. With standard newsstand distribution, print runs were set by the publisher, and allocations by the distributor. Retail had little control over what title they received or how many. With the direct market this changed and retailers saw that #1 issues sold well, and proceeded to order far heavier on issue #1 than any other issue except perhaps anniversary issues.
And numbering has always been kind of arbitrary. As i mentioned titles often just continued the numbering of other titles. It never made sense that the numbering for Thor and Hulk was higher than the FF even though the FF was first. they picked up the numbering of Journey Into Mystery and Tales to Astonish, even though the first 82 issues of JIM didn’t have Thor and the first 58 issues of TTA didn’t have the Hulk. Stranger still, The numbering for the Incredible Hulk, Included issue #1 of Tales to Astonsh, even though that comic didn’t feature the hulk, but it DIDN’T include Hulk #1 which did introduced him. Its not even applied evenly, Spider-man debuts in Amazing Fantasy #15, yet His next appearance is Amazing Spider-man #1 not Amazing Spider-man #16. It makes no sense
Captain America makes even less sense. His numbering continued that of Tales of Suspense, which he shared with iron Man. When they split them up Iron Man got a new #1 and cap got the numbering of TOS, which is strange as Iron Man and actually debuted in TOS and was in far more issues of TOS than Cap. It would have made mores sense to change the book to Iron Man with #100 and give Cap a #1. Or just pick up the numbering of Cap’s Golden Age series. When Marvel revived Cap in the 50s, that exactly what they did. The 1954 relaunch started with issue #76 picking up the numbering of the Golden Age series. of course Captain America Comics had changed its title to Captain America’s Weird Tales and become a horror anthology for its last couple of issue anyway.
DC did it too, When Flash got his own title again, it starts with 105, picking up the numbering of Flash Comics, yet when Green Lantern gets his silver age title, it starts at #1 and not at #39 (after the numbering of his solo series) or #103 (after the numbering of All American Comics, where he debuted) When his book is cancelled at #89, it starts again several years later at #90 rather than relaunching as #1.
for me all that counts is whether i like the content.
M