It's kind of odd how when Scot is dreaming, or unconscious, that his memories appear "glitchy," almost as if they're being broadcast.
Thanks. But is he really dreaming/losing consciousness during those moments, or is he waking up/being knocked back to his senses during those moments, and becoming aware that what he’s seeing is merely a projection?
@BionicDave, it was Julian Lytle that he was talking to, who kept saying “Darkseid is...”, though it originally comes from Grant Morrison’s run on JLA.
@nweathington Thanks for filling in those gaps for me! Wow, of course this - like so many other meaty DCU concepts - comes from Grant Morrison (and/or Howard Porter).
I had the same thought around the end of issue 2 and I tried to see if King was mirroring the issues from the original run, and my conclusion is that he is not.
There's so little there, and things that look like Kirby quotes are pastiches not direct. But they are good enough that you think they are. So any issue-to-issue mirrors I was seeing are likely of my mind's own devising.
Particularly after this issue where Forager plays such a key role, it's more a mirror of New Gods #9-#10 than it is Mister Miracle #4 with its talk of invasion and Orion treating the New Genesis Bugs as second class citizens.
Any text you see in a caption box is directly taken from Kirby, word for word. Nothing else is. And, yes, Tom is not mirroring Kirby beat for beat, issue to issue. He's telling his own story. I'm beginning to think the multiple references back to the Kirby books do have some significance though. I think they are there to provide some sense of deja vu. To show, perhaps, that Scott is being manipulated through a twisting of his memories. I could certainly be wrong of course.
I'm mystified by what seems like apathy from Barda. Is this just the stoic warrior or something else?
It’s one of two things: either it’s just Tom’s take on her character (which I kind of doubt), or it’s not really Barda. Kirby’s Barda was very emotionally driven, much more so than Scott.
I'm wondering if Scott isn't trying to escape life?
That’s an interesting possibility, but I hope that’s not the case. It would go against everything the character stands for. Mister Miracle = Freedom. Freedom = Life. Therefore, Mister Miracle = Life.
I'm wondering if Scott isn't trying to escape life?
That’s an interesting possibility, but I hope that’s not the case. It would go against everything the character stands for. Mister Miracle = Freedom. Freedom = Life. Therefore, Mister Miracle = Life.
Also, it's the plot to issue #4 of Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, where life itself was a trap set by Darkseid.
Though this in turn, like the rest of the mini-series, proves to be the machination of the one New God who plots more than Darkseid himself.
I'm wondering if Scott isn't trying to escape life?
That’s an interesting possibility, but I hope that’s not the case. It would go against everything the character stands for. Mister Miracle = Freedom. Freedom = Life. Therefore, Mister Miracle = Life.
Also, it's the plot to issue #4 of Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, where life itself was a trap set by Darkseid.
Though this in turn, like the rest of the mini-series, proves to be the machination of the one New God who plots more than Darkseid himself.
I should probably go back and reread that. I've forgotten pretty much everything about it. It was not one of my favorites of the Seven Soldiers minis.
I'm wondering if Scott isn't trying to escape life?
That’s an interesting possibility, but I hope that’s not the case. It would go against everything the character stands for. Mister Miracle = Freedom. Freedom = Life. Therefore, Mister Miracle = Life.
Also, it's the plot to issue #4 of Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, where life itself was a trap set by Darkseid.
Though this in turn, like the rest of the mini-series, proves to be the machination of the one New God who plots more than Darkseid himself.
I should probably go back and reread that. I've forgotten pretty much everything about it. It was not one of my favorites of the Seven Soldiers minis.
It definitely reads better post-Final Crisis, except for that speed bump of the rushed art in issue 2 after Pasqual Ferry disappeared to Marvel for Ultimate Fantastic Four.
Another observation. Under Orion's leadership, New Genesis might as well be Apokolips.
I see Kirby’s Orion as a case study in Nature versus Nurture. Orion was always at war with himself, but his nurturing always won out in the end.
So then, what if this is a story about Scott's "nurturing" winning out?
In the case of Scott, there would really be no difference in his “nurturing” winning out and the Anti-Life Equation winning out. The results would be exactly the same: Scott becomes a loyal, obedient, unquestioning slave of Darkseid’s will. Granny’s training was the closest substitute Darkseid had for the Anti-Life Equation at the time Scott was raised on Apokolips.
Whereas I think Orion’s situation was an analogy for Kirby’s own upbringing—where being raised by a strong, loving family gave him the strength to resist falling into a life of crime, unlike many of the kids he grew up with in his neighborhood—I think Scott’s situation was an analogy for Kirby’s desire to be in control of his own destiny, and his belief that through hard work and determination one can improve their lot in life. On the surface you might say that it's a case of Nature winning out over Nurture, which is seemingly in conflict with Orion’s character arc. But within the overall context of the Fourth World saga, I think it all boils down to Kirby’s belief that love is stronger than hate. Scott recognizes that Granny’s “love” is false, and that the help and affection shown to him by HImon and Barda is real and uplifting. Without them, Scott doesn’t escape Apokolips.
Tom did throw a monkey wrench into this when he has Granny basically tell Scott that he is Darkseid’s true heir as foretold in the prophecy. If Scott is Darkseid’s true heir, then wouldn’t succumbing to Darkseid’s will be in Scott’s Nature? (Although Darkseid killed his own father, so maybe not.) But that’s assuming that Granny was being honest—which is not her strong suit. It also assumes that scene was “real life”, and not something happening inside Scott’s mind, which I'm not convinced is the case.
So, I don’t think the story is about Scott’s Nurturing, per se. I think the Anti-Life Equation is simply using Scott’s training as a weapon (among others) against him as it tries to break him down.
I loved issue 3. I think it is a compliment to this series that, as someone who is not immersed in 4th World (though, to be fair, I have long loved these characters from the Justice League and solo series days), and who is not going to catch any of the ways it mirrors the original series, I am totally on board. Even on the surface level, the drama of the story, and the way that it handles the themes of trauma, as well as the way the extraordinary and the grounded and mundane, interact? I love it. This reminds me of the best of the early Vertigo back in the day, like Jamie Delano's run on Animal Man, or the pre-Vertigo-but-would-create-Vertigo takes on superhumans and their full lives and relationships, in Moore's Swamp Thing, or Morrison with Doom Patrol and Animal Man.
Another thing I have noticed throughout, but especially in this issue, I love the way Gerads portrays Barda's size. There have been so many matter of fact moments, like she and Scott in bed this issue, where the difference in their sizes is not overdone, or cheesecaked up, but rather is just a matter of fact reality of them as a pair. I feel like when you see Barda in bed, or in regular street clothes, or have a profile of the two of them sitting at a cafe table, you get an appreciation for her as this much larger than typical woman, but it is not oversold, and what is extraordinary is done in a really grounded way. Like everything else in this work.
I'm right there with you. I think Barda was in some ways a projection of how he saw Roz, his wife. Not in terms of Barda’s size, but as a fortress of strength he could always rely on. But I may be reading too much into it. Regardless, yeah, Gerads does a really nice job with her, keeping her proportions looking natural rather than freakish.
Wow. Issue #4. Another delicious bar of dark, dark chocolate :joy:
Very talky - I kept thinking Gerads must've saved a bit of time in this one lol - but still so fascinating. And gorgeous, especially Barda and Orion. I am intrigued trying to decipher Gerads' use of the "TV screen disturbance" effect. Something tells me it'll be a bit before we know for sure. (Anyone? Anyone?) And these rough lines, and shadows around Scott's masked mouth... this is a real feast.
It's also the first issue I've read having now read some of Kirby's original MM run; I see what you mean, @nweathington, about how King is using Kirby's intro/outro letterbox narrations, and to great effect here. They flirt with implying that Barda may be the undoing of Scott Free, unintentionally... or not. They also seem to provide a meta commentary on Kirby, himself. This King story is so rich. Every time I think about it, I stumble onto new layers. What a writer he is.
I am intrigued trying to decipher Gerads' use of the "TV screen disturbance" effect. Something tells me it'll be a bit before we know for sure. (Anyone? Anyone?)
Agreed! I flipped back to review those "effects" two or three times to see if I could figure it out. There HAS to be a reason or pattern, but I just can't crack it (and it is driving me crazy).
They flirt with implying that Barda may be the undoing of Scott Free, unintentionally... or not.
Also agree. I have a pit in my stomach that this isn't going to end well for poor Scott and Barda (my favourite couple in all of comics, even more than Reed & Sue).
I have a pit in my stomach that this isn't going to end well for poor Scott and Barda (my favourite couple in all of comics, even more than Reed & Sue).
The way I see the characters, that would be like breaking up Jack and Roz. I don’t see that happening. Though I'm sure things will get worse before they get better.
And that was the one thing about this issue that bugged me (well, the thing that bugged me the most). Scott totally ignores Barda when answering Orion’s questions. How can he hate his life when Barda is part of that life? His love for her should be stronger than the Anti-Life Equation. Perhaps it will be in the end. In the meantime, I’m trying my best to let the story play out before I cast judgments.
How can he hate his life when Barda is part of that life?
Yes, I totally kept waiting for the questioning to lead to that, for Scott to have to concede that he loves one thing in this existence: Barda. But nope. King had to have led us into that dark dead-end intentionally. So I don't think what we're seeing is reality; perhaps that's what those "TV screen disturbances" are supposed to imply. Also, wtf does Scott have against Wayne Railroads? :lol:
King had to have led us into that dark dead-end intentionally. So I don't think what we're seeing is reality; perhaps that's what those "TV screen disturbances" are supposed to imply.
Given how flawed the logic of the questioning was, it was absolutely not a natural series of events. And given that the first time we see one of the screen distortions in a panel, it is not the entire panel that is distorted, but only the screen of the EKG monitor attached to Scott in the hospital room on page 5 of issue #1, I’m still going on the theory that all of this story is taking place inside of Scott’s mind/soul/being while he teeters between life and death.
How can he hate his life when Barda is part of that life? His love for her should be stronger than the Anti-Life Equation. Perhaps it will be in the end.
Yep. This is the only thing that gives me hope that it will all turn out right for my favourite comic couple. Scott's love for Barda will definitely come into play at some point. Pretty sure King had Orion intentionally avoid anything regarding Barda during his "questions".
Although... I'm still 50/50 on Barda coming out the end of this alive.
I keep thinking about more subtleties from this issue's dialogue which underscore the notion that what we're seeing is at least a somewhat disingenuous account of reality, as seen through a shifting filter, and/or that it is all some kind of post-suicide Purgatory.
For example, it strikes me as odd when Barda and Orion, out of frustration or surprise, casually exclaim "Jesus." I mean I know they've spent time on our world, and in this title in general, these characters are portrayed a lot like us in personality. But still... saying "Jesus," especially like that... that's just a really weird thing for new gods from other planets to say.
Also (and this was first brought to my attention on another podcast), Orion states upon his arrival in this issue that "We are here to decide [Scott's] life." Then later on, Orion says to Scott "Hate made you kill yourself." Not "attempt to kill" - just kill.
Could the TV screen disturbance effect be signaling shifts in narrative perspective? 1st person to 2nd person to 3rd person, to 3rd person omniscient? Hurm...
For example, it strikes me as odd when Barda and Orion, out of frustration or surprise, casually exclaim "Jesus." I mean I know they've spent time on our world, and in this title in general, these characters are portrayed a lot like us in personality. But still... saying "Jesus," especially like that... that's just a really weird thing for new gods from other planets to say.
I think that’s Tom bringing in the (I think mistaken) theory that Scott is Kirby’s take on a Christ figure. If I remember correctly, Tom even mentioned a fellow comic creator (I forget which one) telling him that. The “face of God” joke—which has been brought up twice now (or is it three times; I'll have to go back and check)—got me thinking that Tom may have taken this theory to heart. Scott may have committed suicide to “die for our sins”, as it were, or rather to save us all from the Anti-Life Equation. But don’t worry, folks. If this theory is correct, we can assume that Scott will continue to follow in the footsteps of the greatest escape artist ever, and rise again from the dead before transcending to a higher plane (becoming the new Highfather?).
I think that’s Tom bringing in the (I think mistaken) theory that Scott is Kirby’s take on a Christ figure. If I remember correctly, Tom even mentioned a fellow comic creator (I forget which one) telling him that. The “face of God” joke—which has been brought up twice now (or is it three times; I'll have to go back and check)—got me thinking that Tom may have taken this theory to heart. Scott may have committed suicide to “die for our sins”, as it were, or rather to save us all from the Anti-Life Equation. But don’t worry, folks. If this theory is correct, we can assume that Scott will continue to follow in the footsteps of the greatest escape artist ever, and rise again from the dead before transcending to a higher plane (becoming the new Highfather?).
I wonder if King, then, would stop at the Christian motif, or go full on into Catholicism - and leave us with a Highfather (Scott), a Son (Barda ends the story pregnant), and a Holy Ghost? (oy, someone propose a New Gods analogy for THAT, Lol)
I wonder if King, then, would stop at the Christian motif, or go full on into Catholicism - and leave us with a Highfather (Scott), a Son (Barda ends the story pregnant), and a Holy Ghost? (oy, someone propose a New Gods analogy for THAT, Lol)
I doubt we’ll end up with Scott as a literal father at the end of the story. But if it would be anyone, it would be Metron, who, I might point out, has already appeared in a non-corporeal way.
Comments
There's so little there, and things that look like Kirby quotes are pastiches not direct. But they are good enough that you think they are. So any issue-to-issue mirrors I was seeing are likely of my mind's own devising.
Particularly after this issue where Forager plays such a key role, it's more a mirror of New Gods #9-#10 than it is Mister Miracle #4 with its talk of invasion and Orion treating the New Genesis Bugs as second class citizens.
I'm mystified by what seems like apathy from Barda. Is this just the stoic warrior or something else?
Why does it feel like Granny is the only character that cares about Scott's well being?
I'm wondering if Scott isn't trying to escape life?
Under Orion's leadership, New Genesis might as well be Apokolips.
Though this in turn, like the rest of the mini-series, proves to be the machination of the one New God who plots more than Darkseid himself.
Whereas I think Orion’s situation was an analogy for Kirby’s own upbringing—where being raised by a strong, loving family gave him the strength to resist falling into a life of crime, unlike many of the kids he grew up with in his neighborhood—I think Scott’s situation was an analogy for Kirby’s desire to be in control of his own destiny, and his belief that through hard work and determination one can improve their lot in life. On the surface you might say that it's a case of Nature winning out over Nurture, which is seemingly in conflict with Orion’s character arc. But within the overall context of the Fourth World saga, I think it all boils down to Kirby’s belief that love is stronger than hate. Scott recognizes that Granny’s “love” is false, and that the help and affection shown to him by HImon and Barda is real and uplifting. Without them, Scott doesn’t escape Apokolips.
Tom did throw a monkey wrench into this when he has Granny basically tell Scott that he is Darkseid’s true heir as foretold in the prophecy. If Scott is Darkseid’s true heir, then wouldn’t succumbing to Darkseid’s will be in Scott’s Nature? (Although Darkseid killed his own father, so maybe not.) But that’s assuming that Granny was being honest—which is not her strong suit. It also assumes that scene was “real life”, and not something happening inside Scott’s mind, which I'm not convinced is the case.
So, I don’t think the story is about Scott’s Nurturing, per se. I think the Anti-Life Equation is simply using Scott’s training as a weapon (among others) against him as it tries to break him down.
Another thing I have noticed throughout, but especially in this issue, I love the way Gerads portrays Barda's size. There have been so many matter of fact moments, like she and Scott in bed this issue, where the difference in their sizes is not overdone, or cheesecaked up, but rather is just a matter of fact reality of them as a pair. I feel like when you see Barda in bed, or in regular street clothes, or have a profile of the two of them sitting at a cafe table, you get an appreciation for her as this much larger than typical woman, but it is not oversold, and what is extraordinary is done in a really grounded way. Like everything else in this work.
Very talky - I kept thinking Gerads must've saved a bit of time in this one lol - but still so fascinating. And gorgeous, especially Barda and Orion. I am intrigued trying to decipher Gerads' use of the "TV screen disturbance" effect. Something tells me it'll be a bit before we know for sure. (Anyone? Anyone?) And these rough lines, and shadows around Scott's masked mouth... this is a real feast.
It's also the first issue I've read having now read some of Kirby's original MM run; I see what you mean, @nweathington, about how King is using Kirby's intro/outro letterbox narrations, and to great effect here. They flirt with implying that Barda may be the undoing of Scott Free, unintentionally... or not. They also seem to provide a meta commentary on Kirby, himself. This King story is so rich. Every time I think about it, I stumble onto new layers. What a writer he is.
Also agree. I have a pit in my stomach that this isn't going to end well for poor Scott and Barda (my favourite couple in all of comics, even more than Reed & Sue).
And that was the one thing about this issue that bugged me (well, the thing that bugged me the most). Scott totally ignores Barda when answering Orion’s questions. How can he hate his life when Barda is part of that life? His love for her should be stronger than the Anti-Life Equation. Perhaps it will be in the end. In the meantime, I’m trying my best to let the story play out before I cast judgments.
Although... I'm still 50/50 on Barda coming out the end of this alive.
For example, it strikes me as odd when Barda and Orion, out of frustration or surprise, casually exclaim "Jesus." I mean I know they've spent time on our world, and in this title in general, these characters are portrayed a lot like us in personality. But still... saying "Jesus," especially like that... that's just a really weird thing for new gods from other planets to say.
Also (and this was first brought to my attention on another podcast), Orion states upon his arrival in this issue that "We are here to decide [Scott's] life." Then later on, Orion says to Scott "Hate made you kill yourself." Not "attempt to kill" - just kill.
Could the TV screen disturbance effect be signaling shifts in narrative perspective? 1st person to 2nd person to 3rd person, to 3rd person omniscient? Hurm...