a Holy Ghost? (oy, someone propose a New Gods analogy for THAT, Lol)
How about Oberon!
Oberon is the only other option, unless Highfather comes back somehow. But I would assume he’s joined the Source. Now that I think of it, where the hell is Scott’s motherbox? The motherbox would actually fit the position best.
@nweathington Motherbox! I love that. Those things always have seemed to be imbued with a mysterious Fourth World spirit. Now I am wanting to see this. Poor Tom King, he's probably about to roll out some genius remaining half of his story that has nothing to do with formal religion and I'm gonna be like "but... what about... the holy trinity thingie?" :joy:
@TheOriginalGMan You're right, Oberon IS conveniently passed on from life in this story. Hmm. We may indeed see him as a holy ghost! Speaking of Oberon, what a batshit crazy life this dude has had. I just visited his Wikipedia page which totally reminded me of when he briefly dated the Justice League's Brazilian bombshell, Fire LOL
@TheOriginalGMan You're right, Oberon IS conveniently passed on from life in this story.
Or is he? I mean, if nothing we've seen from the start of the first issue is real, then how can we be sure that Oberon died before Darkseid got the Anti-Life Equation, or if this is just the Anti-Life Equation trying to convince Scott that Oberon is dead.
I'm caught up on this now. I haven't read this thread in full, I will do so later, but just wanted to get out my initial thoughts.
I find myself liking but not loving this series. I do usually love Tom King's writing. I find this very readable, don't get me wrong, but judged on a Tom King scale this is not my favorite or his writings.
While reading the first 4 issues I found myself seeing a lot of 2 books in it: Matt Fraction's Hawkeye and Warren Ellis' Moon Knight.
It is similar to Hawkeye in that you get to see a lot of a superhero's everyday life. It is similar to Moon Knight in that it is not clear what is real and what is in the hero's mind.
I think my main problem with this book has to do with the "everyday life" aspect of it. When Hawkeye came out I found this very compelling. I had never seen this done in a comic before, at least not to the extent with which it was done there (Charles Soule's She-Hulk would be similar a couple of years later). In this book I found that aspect a little distracting to be honest.
I'm not sure why that is. It might be because I just find the underlying story so compelling that I really want the focus on that. It might be because of the Moon Knight-esque parts are also compelling... I just found every time there was a scene with Scott Free doing a late night interview after a battle I was rolling my eyes.
I think a large part of it is that this could be a good straight-up comic book, about the anti-life equation and this war between new genesis and apokolips.
One thing I really like about this book is that the war doesn't feel "epic". It just feels like a war between the two; they are always at war so that's nothing new, right? I guess the "everyday life" stuff is intentional, to make it not feel too epic. I just wonder if that could have been achieve without so many scenes of Free and Barda watching tv on the couch.
Issue #5—yep, Tom is definitely going with the Scott-as-Christ-figure theory. Again, I don't subscribe to that theory, but that’s fine. At least Barda comes alive in this issue.
Nice little tribute to Kirby at the opening, with Scott literally not being able to fill the void left by his creator, and again with the tombstone a few pages later.
I think the two-page scene of Scott and Barda on the beach is the most important moment in the issue though. We get another reference to the face of God, and perhaps a clue as to how Scott will defeat the Anti-Life Equation.
Issue #5 - I continue to be conflicted about this book.
Things I like:
* The art (SO GOOD) * Mister Miracle and Barda's relationship * The underlying story
Things I don't care for:
* Mister Miracle and Barda discussing LA traffic * Pretty much all references to everyday life * Whatever perspective the reader is having (are we watching from a documentary or something? If not, why the TV static?)
Issue #5—yep, Tom is definitely going with the Scott-as-Christ-figure theory.
Yes, kinky S&M Christ to boot
I found this issue a bit meandering but still fascinating, and definitely touching. Loved all those beats which @mphil didn't, haha; I actually love the contrast of Scott and Barda drifting through their L.A. life while their crazy, otherworldly circumstances loom. I've never seen comics of New Gods eating pastrami at Langer's Deli. I dug the "La La Land"-ish beat of our lovebirds driving on the 10 Freeway while enjoying 'their song' (of Apokoliptian misery). And loved the muted colors of their clothes at nighttime while they looked at the lights of the valley.
Also bet Kirby - at least for some of his life - would've loved to see Barda brain Stan Lee with her Mega-rod. Lol Maybe there are secret drawings somewhere from Kirby crafting the image of it himself?
Am still reading through Kirby's own Mister Miracle run and have gotten to the stuff featuring Himon - the great thinker/philosopher of Apokolips who taught Scott the art of escape - and I can't help but think he taught Scott some of the logic he's trying to use in this King/Gerads issue.
By the way, the Kirby run is so rich, so beautifully drawn and filled with so much of that era's classic sci fi imaginings. When Himon discusses the universal power of "The Source," I just kept thinking to myself: I know for a fact George Lucas was a big comic book nerd, and his idea for The Force sure does sound like Kirby's description of The Source in 1971 :expressionless:
It seems like someone says this after every issue, but issue #6 is the best issue so far. I was really hoping for the Female Furies to show up in this issue, but I'll get over it. I love how Tom incorporated the Kirby kaptions this time. So do Scott and Barda return to Apokolips in issue #7?
Some items of interest this issue: 1) Barda saying, “But if you’re escaping the box, then you’re still in the box. You’re not in the box, Scott. You’ve got nothing to escape.” A clue perhaps? The next page of the conversation is interesting too.
2) Scott: “I love you.” Barda: “ I... I believe you, Scott Free.” There has to be something more to Barda’s response.
3) We get confirmation that the “face of God” is Darkseid. Previously, we’d only seen Orion’s “dark side” in conjunction with those words. This time it Mr. Omega Beams himself. Has Scott had a “revelation”?
I agree, loved this issue. At first I was like "come on, is this issue simply going to be played entirely on that one comedic note?" and then I noticed how genuinely female Barda was being written, the way she spoke, her chain of reasoning. (Having grown up with two big sisters and a homemaker mom, it rang true to me.) Then I caught on about why Barda felt such a need to remodel and make a new room. And that series of panels where Scott's smiling his big smile and embraces Barda and says I love you... I just about melted :.)
I was really hoping for the Female Furies to show up in this issue...
That would be awesome! Would love to see King's/Gerads' take on Lashina, Mad Harriet, Stompa and (the funniest to me) Bernadeth. Hopefully we'll get to see them by the time this run is over.
1) Barda saying, “But if you’re escaping the box, then you’re still in the box. You’re not in the box, Scott. You’ve got nothing to escape.” A clue perhaps?
Ya got me. As much as I love this title, sometimes its logic dialogue is a bit too slippery for me to grasp.
2) Scott: “I love you.” Barda: “ I... I believe you, Scott Free.” There has to be something more to Barda’s response.
Hmm. I just read it as Barda being cute. But you could be right. I did notice that this is the only issue which did not feature any of the "TV disturbance effect." Maybe King was being subtler with his foreboding.
3) We get confirmation that the “face of God” is Darkseid. Previously, we’d only seen Orion’s “dark side” in conjunction with those words. This time it Mr. Omega Beams himself. Has Scott had a “revelation”?
Ah, now I'm lost, I don't understand any of that :lol: Was Darkseid in this issue, on New Genesis?
That would be awesome! Would love to see King's/Gerads' take on Lashina, Mad Harriet, Stompa and (the funniest to me) Bernadeth. Hopefully we'll get to see them by the time this run is over.
I only had my hopes up since they first appeared in Kirby's sixth issue. But they were also in issue #7, so...
Hmm. I just read it as Barda being cute. But you could be right. I did notice that this is the only issue which did not feature any of the "TV disturbance effect." Maybe King was being subtler with his foreboding.
It's not just her words that made me curious, but her body language (head down, stiff posture), and the "camera" positioning (a full figure downshot).
We do see the distortion effect, and it's much stronger than usual. It's in every panel of the last two pages, except the "Darkseid Is" panel. The interesting thing is that this time there's a red filter. When we get to the first panel of the last page, we see why. That panel has no red filter, but we see Darkseid and the residuals of his Omega beams. After the "Darkseid Is" panel, there's a yellow filter accompanying the "boom" of a Boom Tube, which we can assume comes from the flash of the tube opening. Then we're back to the red filter, as if we're looking through the red of the Omega effect. I think from this we can extrapolate that the static throughout the series is meant to indicate that Darkseid is watching. And perhaps the one panel where we see Darkseid without the red filter indicates he's also seeing what Scott (or maybe Barda) sees. In other words, he's inside Scott (or rather the Anti-Life Equation is). Maybe.
It seems like someone says this after every issue, but issue #6 is the best issue so far.
Agreed. Everything worked for me. The steady build-up of Barda's application to appear on "Extreme Home Makeover: New Genesis Edition" really paid off by the end.
Also, while there have been a lot of really funny parts in this series, the bit with the 2 guards debating what the meaning was of "The Fourth World" may be the funniest yet. I literally "LOL'd" at it.
It seems like someone says this after every issue, but issue #6 is the best issue so far.
Agreed. Everything worked for me. The steady build-up of Barda's application to appear on "Extreme Home Makeover: New Genesis Edition" really paid off by the end.
I think it also explains her behavior in earlier issues to some degree.
Also, while there have been a lot of really funny parts in this series, the bit with the 2 guards debating what the meaning was of "The Fourth World" may be the funniest yet. I literally "LOL'd" at it.
Yeah, it was a funny joke, but it kind of took me out of the moment. “I am theology.” I just don't see the New Gods as thinking of themselves that way. Darkseid, yes, but not so much the gods of New Genesis.
We do see the distortion effect, and it's much stronger than usual. It's in every panel of the last two pages...
Ah, no wonder some of your comments made no sense to me, my digital version of this issue cut off what must be the last two pages. My version ends with Barda saying "sounds good" and Scott walking through the door to confront Orion. I thought it felt kind of abrupt :joy:
We do see the distortion effect, and it's much stronger than usual. It's in every panel of the last two pages...
Ah, no wonder some of your comments made no sense to me, my digital version of this issue cut off what must be the last two pages. My version ends with Barda saying "sounds good" and Scott walking through the door to confront Orion. I thought it felt kind of abrupt :joy:
Ugh! Sorry to spoil then! I'd be talking to my senator about it if I were you.
WHOA. OKAY. Just read the missing two pages. Now I see what you mean! haha
That is a very different ending indeed.
Considering, as we have, that someone like Scott would be suffering from PTSD-related psychological issues, and that if Darkseid had the Anti-Life Equation then only he would know true reality, it's tricky to feel confidence about anything we're seeing throughout this series. It's like I'm telling myself "just enjoy the ride for now, and once you learn the secret ending, you'll go back and re-read to see what was really going on." Is that bad? I feel like a lazy reader in that regard, but to be honest it's rare that I'm dealing with both an unreliable protagonist as well as a potentially reality-bending antagonist. Again... slippery. Beautiful and still emotional, though.
On a mostly unrelated note... it's always confounded me how Thanos was such a blatant ripoff of Darkseid and yet Thanos has been written so much better over the years; he gets much more character depth, and thanks to folks like Jim Starlin, it feels like Thanos has had more stories and adventures deepening his fanbase within the Marvel Universe. If I had the chance to write Darkseid, I'd want to stretch his range, to show him to be more than merely a boogeyman adversary. Maybe that is what King and Gerads are somehow doing here, ultimately?
It's like I'm telling myself "just enjoy the ride for now, and once you learn the secret ending, you'll go back and re-read to see what was really going on."
That's been my mindset from the get-go. I have a lot of faith that King will be able to "stick the landing" with this story and have everything retroactively make sense, to the point I'm actually kind of excited for the eventual re-read. Kind of like when folks saw "The Sixth Sense" for the first time, and immediately wanted to go see it again.
Speaking of which, I still think young Haley Joel Osment would be able to see Scot Free. :-)
Issue #7... absolutely brilliant use of the Kirby kaptions from original #7. How did I not see that coming? Plus, as I was hoping and expecting, the Furies show up and were great in every way. Now I wonder what Scott’s struggle with the Lump in the next issue will entail, though I can kind of guess. Kanto in the next issue as well perhaps?
Scott's beard this issue made me realize that in the opening panel of issue #1, he was clean-shaven, and he hasn’t shaved since, almost as if he was preparing for his role as Highfather (although Azaya’s hair and beard made for more the appearance of a lion’s mane than Scott’s). Whether it’s meant to show some intuition on Scott’s part or is simply foreshadowing, I don’t know, but it’s a nice touch either way.
And this issue’s big focal point, the baby’s name—Jacob—which Barda pulls from Jacob’s Ladder, the escape route from the X-Pit. Now, this is an invention of Tom’s. Kirby, to my knowledge, never used the term Jacob’s Ladder in the New Gods mythology, and he definitely didn’t use it in conjunction with the X-Pit. But Tom’s obviously put it in for the biblical reference (it’s also of importance in Islam and Judaism, but I think we can focus on the Christian interpretations for the purposes of this story)—and possibly as a reference to the movie Jacob’s Ladder as well. If this is indeed a reference to the movie, it affirms the idea that this entire story is just playing out inside Scott’s mind as he lies in a hospital bed.
@nweathington - I share your cheers for this next issue! This series is so worthy that I had absolutely no problem naming it for almost all of my CGS Award noms. Lol
And yes, the Bible's Jacob's Ladder story (specifically its set-up with Isaac, Rebekah, and their twin sons Esau and Jacob) can be seen as a beautiful analogy for the "brothers" of Apokolips and New Genesis... just like the film "Jacob's Ladder" could be exactly how this specific comic book story is playing out. I am really starting to accept that most if not all of which we're seeing here is actually a false reality of Scott's biggest joys and fears in life, all playing out before his eyes in a Purgatory or in an Anti-Life daze.
I mean, how awesome were those Gerads-drawn "Omega beam-ish" heart monitor lines?? One was even shaped into an omega! So fucking scary. And the Female Furies were a perfect compliment to that. You love them and you laugh at them, and at the same time these are bloodthirsty assassins who even say to your face that they are going to kill you. In a hospital. As your wife is giving birth.
5975 West Olympic Boulevard to be specific, if I'm not mistaken. Which means Jacob was born in the Olympia Medical Center. Because where else would a (new) god be born?
Enjoyed this issue a lot (again). I felt the plot was rather monotonous throughout - showing how impossible it is to expect people to live a normal life during/ and after having experienced war - but it is a central theme to the series, and it is so beautifully rendered here in art and word.
Had to pause extra long at that panel of Funky sweetly praising the baby "That's my Jack, he's the king!" Ugh, the bittersweet feels lol... This guy alone is a very intriguing character study, an interesting perspective on Stan Lee - who kids would see as such a wonderful hero and storyteller, while he'd come off as such a jerk to some of the adults around him (Jack Kirby, the obvious example). One can carry that analogy to parents in general though, or to all adults, really. Anyone who moves from innocence to experience, to a complicated existence from which there's no going back, the only escape being death.
BUT to end on a cheerier note - I did love how skillfully King/Gerads accepted the funny dare to include a reference to Superman Blue and Superman Red in this issue!
Comments
@TheOriginalGMan You're right, Oberon IS conveniently passed on from life in this story. Hmm. We may indeed see him as a holy ghost! Speaking of Oberon, what a batshit crazy life this dude has had. I just visited his Wikipedia page which totally reminded me of when he briefly dated the Justice League's Brazilian bombshell, Fire LOL
I feel like calling Fire and screaming that into the phone
I find myself liking but not loving this series. I do usually love Tom King's writing. I find this very readable, don't get me wrong, but judged on a Tom King scale this is not my favorite or his writings.
While reading the first 4 issues I found myself seeing a lot of 2 books in it: Matt Fraction's Hawkeye and Warren Ellis' Moon Knight.
It is similar to Hawkeye in that you get to see a lot of a superhero's everyday life. It is similar to Moon Knight in that it is not clear what is real and what is in the hero's mind.
I think my main problem with this book has to do with the "everyday life" aspect of it. When Hawkeye came out I found this very compelling. I had never seen this done in a comic before, at least not to the extent with which it was done there (Charles Soule's She-Hulk would be similar a couple of years later). In this book I found that aspect a little distracting to be honest.
I'm not sure why that is. It might be because I just find the underlying story so compelling that I really want the focus on that. It might be because of the Moon Knight-esque parts are also compelling... I just found every time there was a scene with Scott Free doing a late night interview after a battle I was rolling my eyes.
I think a large part of it is that this could be a good straight-up comic book, about the anti-life equation and this war between new genesis and apokolips.
One thing I really like about this book is that the war doesn't feel "epic". It just feels like a war between the two; they are always at war so that's nothing new, right? I guess the "everyday life" stuff is intentional, to make it not feel too epic. I just wonder if that could have been achieve without so many scenes of Free and Barda watching tv on the couch.
Nice little tribute to Kirby at the opening, with Scott literally not being able to fill the void left by his creator, and again with the tombstone a few pages later.
I think the two-page scene of Scott and Barda on the beach is the most important moment in the issue though. We get another reference to the face of God, and perhaps a clue as to how Scott will defeat the Anti-Life Equation.
Things I like:
* The art (SO GOOD)
* Mister Miracle and Barda's relationship
* The underlying story
Things I don't care for:
* Mister Miracle and Barda discussing LA traffic
* Pretty much all references to everyday life
* Whatever perspective the reader is having (are we watching from a documentary or something? If not, why the TV static?)
I found this issue a bit meandering but still fascinating, and definitely touching. Loved all those beats which @mphil didn't, haha; I actually love the contrast of Scott and Barda drifting through their L.A. life while their crazy, otherworldly circumstances loom. I've never seen comics of New Gods eating pastrami at Langer's Deli. I dug the "La La Land"-ish beat of our lovebirds driving on the 10 Freeway while enjoying 'their song' (of Apokoliptian misery). And loved the muted colors of their clothes at nighttime while they looked at the lights of the valley.
Also bet Kirby - at least for some of his life - would've loved to see Barda brain Stan Lee with her Mega-rod. Lol Maybe there are secret drawings somewhere from Kirby crafting the image of it himself?
Am still reading through Kirby's own Mister Miracle run and have gotten to the stuff featuring Himon - the great thinker/philosopher of Apokolips who taught Scott the art of escape - and I can't help but think he taught Scott some of the logic he's trying to use in this King/Gerads issue.
By the way, the Kirby run is so rich, so beautifully drawn and filled with so much of that era's classic sci fi imaginings. When Himon discusses the universal power of "The Source," I just kept thinking to myself: I know for a fact George Lucas was a big comic book nerd, and his idea for The Force sure does sound like Kirby's description of The Source in 1971 :expressionless:
Btw, if you like the everyday life aspect of this be sure to check out Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, if you haven't already.
Some items of interest this issue: 1) Barda saying, “But if you’re escaping the box, then you’re still in the box. You’re not in the box, Scott. You’ve got nothing to escape.” A clue perhaps? The next page of the conversation is interesting too.
2) Scott: “I love you.” Barda: “ I... I believe you, Scott Free.” There has to be something more to Barda’s response.
3) We get confirmation that the “face of God” is Darkseid. Previously, we’d only seen Orion’s “dark side” in conjunction with those words. This time it Mr. Omega Beams himself. Has Scott had a “revelation”?
We do see the distortion effect, and it's much stronger than usual. It's in every panel of the last two pages, except the "Darkseid Is" panel. The interesting thing is that this time there's a red filter. When we get to the first panel of the last page, we see why. That panel has no red filter, but we see Darkseid and the residuals of his Omega beams. After the "Darkseid Is" panel, there's a yellow filter accompanying the "boom" of a Boom Tube, which we can assume comes from the flash of the tube opening. Then we're back to the red filter, as if we're looking through the red of the Omega effect. I think from this we can extrapolate that the static throughout the series is meant to indicate that Darkseid is watching. And perhaps the one panel where we see Darkseid without the red filter indicates he's also seeing what Scott (or maybe Barda) sees. In other words, he's inside Scott (or rather the Anti-Life Equation is). Maybe.
Also, while there have been a lot of really funny parts in this series, the bit with the 2 guards debating what the meaning was of "The Fourth World" may be the funniest yet. I literally "LOL'd" at it.
That is a very different ending indeed.
Considering, as we have, that someone like Scott would be suffering from PTSD-related psychological issues, and that if Darkseid had the Anti-Life Equation then only he would know true reality, it's tricky to feel confidence about anything we're seeing throughout this series. It's like I'm telling myself "just enjoy the ride for now, and once you learn the secret ending, you'll go back and re-read to see what was really going on." Is that bad? I feel like a lazy reader in that regard, but to be honest it's rare that I'm dealing with both an unreliable protagonist as well as a potentially reality-bending antagonist. Again... slippery. Beautiful and still emotional, though.
On a mostly unrelated note... it's always confounded me how Thanos was such a blatant ripoff of Darkseid and yet Thanos has been written so much better over the years; he gets much more character depth, and thanks to folks like Jim Starlin, it feels like Thanos has had more stories and adventures deepening his fanbase within the Marvel Universe. If I had the chance to write Darkseid, I'd want to stretch his range, to show him to be more than merely a boogeyman adversary. Maybe that is what King and Gerads are somehow doing here, ultimately?
Speaking of which, I still think young Haley Joel Osment would be able to see Scot Free. :-)
Scott's beard this issue made me realize that in the opening panel of issue #1, he was clean-shaven, and he hasn’t shaved since, almost as if he was preparing for his role as Highfather (although Azaya’s hair and beard made for more the appearance of a lion’s mane than Scott’s). Whether it’s meant to show some intuition on Scott’s part or is simply foreshadowing, I don’t know, but it’s a nice touch either way.
And this issue’s big focal point, the baby’s name—Jacob—which Barda pulls from Jacob’s Ladder, the escape route from the X-Pit. Now, this is an invention of Tom’s. Kirby, to my knowledge, never used the term Jacob’s Ladder in the New Gods mythology, and he definitely didn’t use it in conjunction with the X-Pit. But Tom’s obviously put it in for the biblical reference (it’s also of importance in Islam and Judaism, but I think we can focus on the Christian interpretations for the purposes of this story)—and possibly as a reference to the movie Jacob’s Ladder as well. If this is indeed a reference to the movie, it affirms the idea that this entire story is just playing out inside Scott’s mind as he lies in a hospital bed.
And yes, the Bible's Jacob's Ladder story (specifically its set-up with Isaac, Rebekah, and their twin sons Esau and Jacob) can be seen as a beautiful analogy for the "brothers" of Apokolips and New Genesis... just like the film "Jacob's Ladder" could be exactly how this specific comic book story is playing out. I am really starting to accept that most if not all of which we're seeing here is actually a false reality of Scott's biggest joys and fears in life, all playing out before his eyes in a Purgatory or in an Anti-Life daze.
I mean, how awesome were those Gerads-drawn "Omega beam-ish" heart monitor lines?? One was even shaped into an omega! So fucking scary. And the Female Furies were a perfect compliment to that. You love them and you laugh at them, and at the same time these are bloodthirsty assassins who even say to your face that they are going to kill you. In a hospital. As your wife is giving birth.
This comic book is just my 2017/2018 jam :blush:
It's on Olympic.
But the only thing about that sequence that I found hard to believe was how that valet did not get his head ripped from his shoulders by Barda.
But, then, every mother handles labor differently. So it could be that it brings out the less-violent side of her.
Had to pause extra long at that panel of Funky sweetly praising the baby "That's my Jack, he's the king!" Ugh, the bittersweet feels lol... This guy alone is a very intriguing character study, an interesting perspective on Stan Lee - who kids would see as such a wonderful hero and storyteller, while he'd come off as such a jerk to some of the adults around him (Jack Kirby, the obvious example). One can carry that analogy to parents in general though, or to all adults, really. Anyone who moves from innocence to experience, to a complicated existence from which there's no going back, the only escape being death.
BUT to end on a cheerier note - I did love how skillfully King/Gerads accepted the funny dare to include a reference to Superman Blue and Superman Red in this issue!