Sure his city might still need a protector, but it doesn't neccesarily need HIM, that's what Blake is for. Judging on the time differences between these movies, I would guess Blake would have plenty of time to train up before Gotham was truly in peril again
I guess. It's just that, the last time Bruce retired for his own needs (to mourn Rachel) enemies of Gotham had the opportunity to plot and plan and, quite literally, lay their groundwork.
When you think about it, in retrospect, the movie Bruce thought he defeated The League of Shadows in Begins, but he was wrong, as he didn't know about Talia and Bane, and look at what they built while he wasn't watching. And who knows what else they built? Could there not be another Talia out there?
He put Scarecrow and Joker away, but Scarecrow is still free at the end of the movie and, while he is never mentioned, if we want to pretend all this stuff is real you would have to reason the Joker is free, too.
Gotham is in ruins. Most of the police are dead. There must be all sorts of lose weapons and remaining prisoners and radicalized people around (if Bane did, indeed, succeed in inspiring people to rise up).
This is when Bruce decided it is time to go travel Europe to drink coffee and make babies, because Blake will just figure it all out?
I guess that brings me back to my initial reaction/confusion with the ending. Why, when I saw it, I honestly didn't read that scene as Bruce deciding to hand over Batman and retire. It just doesn't seem a believable time for him to do it. I took it that he had buried Bruce Wayne so he could actually focus on being Batman full-time, only now he has allies.
I think Talia & Bane had a successful plan to put Gotham into No Man's Land was because Bruce became a recluse. Batman could've disappeared into the darkness as the bad guy. Had Bruce not been a recluse, he would've been more active in his company, which would've prevented Daggett from buying out his company.
Granted, they could've had a different plan, but without Bruce's self-imposed exile, it wouldn't have been as easy.
M
I agree. And, given that being reclusive helped make all that possible, couldn't it be argued that faking his death and retiring would make all sorts of other threats to Gotham possible at a time when Gotham could still benefit from Batman, or Bruce Wayne, or both?
Sure his city might still need a protector, but it doesn't neccesarily need HIM, that's what Blake is for. Judging on the time differences between these movies, I would guess Blake would have plenty of time to train up before Gotham was truly in peril again
I guess. It's just that, the last time Bruce retired for his own needs (to mourn Rachel) enemies of Gotham had the opportunity to plot and plan and, quite literally, lay their groundwork.
When you think about it, in retrospect, the movie Bruce thought he defeated The League of Shadows in Begins, but he was wrong, as he didn't know about Talia and Bane, and look at what they built while he wasn't watching. And who knows what else they built? Could there not be another Talia out there?
He put Scarecrow and Joker away, but Scarecrow is still free at the end of the movie and, while he is never mentioned, if we want to pretend all this stuff is real you would have to reason the Joker is free, too.
Gotham is in ruins. Most of the police are dead. There must be all sorts of lose weapons and remaining prisoners and radicalized people around (if Bane did, indeed, succeed in inspiring people to rise up).
This is when Bruce decided it is time to go travel Europe to drink coffee and make babies, because Blake will just figure it all out?
I guess that brings me back to my initial reaction/confusion with the ending. Why, when I saw it, I honestly didn't read that scene as Bruce deciding to hand over Batman and retire. It just doesn't seem a believable time for him to do it. I took it that he had buried Bruce Wayne so he could actually focus on being Batman full-time, only now he has allies.
I think Talia & Bane had a successful plan to put Gotham into No Man's Land was because Bruce became a recluse. Batman could've disappeared into the darkness as the bad guy. Had Bruce not been a recluse, he would've been more active in his company, which would've prevented Daggett from buying out his company.
Granted, they could've had a different plan, but without Bruce's self-imposed exile, it wouldn't have been as easy.
M
I agree. And, given that being reclusive helped make all that possible, couldn't it be argued that faking his death and retiring would make all sorts of other threats to Gotham possible at a time when Gotham could still benefit from Batman, or Bruce Wayne, or both?
I should've mentioned in my prior post; as Alfred stated to Bruce, he could've help supplied the police force with better equipment; it occurred when he was running Selina through the computer.
Going off that, Bruce could've kept Batman gone, but supplied law enforcement with great equipment through his company. Kinda like Batman, Inc but without the parts that irritate me.
I felt Bane & Talia were successful because both Bruce & Batman were in exile, instead of just Batman.
Sure his city might still need a protector, but it doesn't neccesarily need HIM, that's what Blake is for. Judging on the time differences between these movies, I would guess Blake would have plenty of time to train up before Gotham was truly in peril again
I guess. It's just that, the last time Bruce retired for his own needs (to mourn Rachel) enemies of Gotham had the opportunity to plot and plan and, quite literally, lay their groundwork.
When you think about it, in retrospect, the movie Bruce thought he defeated The League of Shadows in Begins, but he was wrong, as he didn't know about Talia and Bane, and look at what they built while he wasn't watching. And who knows what else they built? Could there not be another Talia out there?
He put Scarecrow and Joker away, but Scarecrow is still free at the end of the movie and, while he is never mentioned, if we want to pretend all this stuff is real you would have to reason the Joker is free, too.
Gotham is in ruins. Most of the police are dead. There must be all sorts of lose weapons and remaining prisoners and radicalized people around (if Bane did, indeed, succeed in inspiring people to rise up).
This is when Bruce decided it is time to go travel Europe to drink coffee and make babies, because Blake will just figure it all out?
I guess that brings me back to my initial reaction/confusion with the ending. Why, when I saw it, I honestly didn't read that scene as Bruce deciding to hand over Batman and retire. It just doesn't seem a believable time for him to do it. I took it that he had buried Bruce Wayne so he could actually focus on being Batman full-time, only now he has allies.
I think Talia & Bane had a successful plan to put Gotham into No Man's Land was because Bruce became a recluse. Batman could've disappeared into the darkness as the bad guy. Had Bruce not been a recluse, he would've been more active in his company, which would've prevented Daggett from buying out his company.
Granted, they could've had a different plan, but without Bruce's self-imposed exile, it wouldn't have been as easy.
M
I agree. And, given that being reclusive helped make all that possible, couldn't it be argued that faking his death and retiring would make all sorts of other threats to Gotham possible at a time when Gotham could still benefit from Batman, or Bruce Wayne, or both?
I should've mentioned in my prior post; as Alfred stated to Bruce, he could've help supplied the police force with better equipment; it occurred when he was running Selina through the computer.
Going off that, Bruce could've kept Batman gone, but supplied law enforcement with great equipment through his company. Kinda like Batman, Inc but without the parts that irritate me.
I felt Bane & Talia were successful because both Bruce & Batman were in exile, instead of just Batman.
M
That's a good point, too. I agree. And while I understand that- if the lesson that Bruce needed to learn was to trust others, or something like that- if indeed we were supposed to believe that he trusted Blake so much that he can just bequeath him the cave and not look back, then I think Bruce learned that lesson a little too well.
That's a good point, too. I agree. And while I understand that- if the lesson that Bruce needed to learn was to trust others, or something like that- if indeed we were supposed to believe that he trusted Blake so much that he can just bequeath him the cave and not look back, then I think Bruce learned that lesson a little too well.
Thats exactly how i think we are to take it. Bruce is retired and off in europe to, as you say, drink coffee and make babies and Blake has the batcave and the bat mantle to take care of the city. and since the bat signal was repaired im pretty sure he is intended to continue as Batman rather than soem variant thereof.
I didn't see anything wrong with the ending. It was already established that Bruce's goal before was to have Harvey Dent take over his role so he could retire with Rachel. That's exactly what happened but with different people in the roles. Blake is taking over while he's retiring with Selina. And I'm pretty sure that's what the scene in the restaurant was to establish. Alfred told Bruce about his dream of what he wanted to happen. I imagine Bruce watched Alfred for a bit and found out where he liked to eat and followed him there one day with Selina to make sure that he got his desire (that makes much more sense than a random coincidence, especially the way Bruce looked at him).
And in regards to Batman not being in the movie enough - the movie was (partly) based on the Knighfall series of stories, where Bruce spent most of the story in a wheelchair so I'm fine with it.
It is pretty obvious that Blake will be batman. Gotham needs a batman. Anyone can be batman. Batman is a symbol. This was all established in the first movie and beat to death in the following two. Was no one listening? Sheesh! Lol Blake would know Bruce is alive because he will become a great detective. Bruce obviously feels safe enough to leave Blake the city and the cowl that he can score some Selina. In essence, when you see Blake as anything other than batman you are destroying the symbol of batman. Especially with all the bat,an imitators about. There is only one batman.
After listening to the episode, I'll admit the Blake becoming Nightwing/Batman issue became less clear for me. Now I'm not sure
The post above yours will have you believe Blake was destined to be Batman. It is a possibility, but it can't be ruled out Blake takes up another Bat-themed identity, or Nightwing. Until I see a scene where he's donning a batsuit, I'm going to bury my head like the cult followers do with the Freeh report; no smoking gun!
I don't see why Blake has to become Batman. The symbol doesn't have to be the bat. Heck, Bruce was ready to hand the reins over to Dent who didn't even dress up. I think Batman's resources were left to Blake but what he decided to do with them were up to him. Bruce was able to walk away knowing Blake would take care of Gotham no matter how he decided to do it.
It is pretty obvious that Blake will be batman. Gotham needs a batman. Anyone can be batman. Batman is a symbol. This was all established in the first movie and beat to death in the following two. Was no one listening? Sheesh! Lol Blake would know Bruce is alive because he will become a great detective. Bruce obviously feels safe enough to leave Blake the city and the cowl that he can score some Selina. In essence, when you see Blake as anything other than batman you are destroying the symbol of batman. Especially with all the bat,an imitators about. There is only one batman.
Mike, I had to create an account just to disagree with your comment. No, not anyone can be Batman. If that were the case any decent detective could slide into the Batcave, put on the suit and be Batman. It is the man inside the suit that makes the hero. Bruce Wayne, even in this incarnation, is a man who was born out of tragedy, a man who used his resources to spent a decade training, becoming more than just an ordinary man. The Bruce in this movie spent years with ninjas, and living in prisons to understand how the criminal mind works. Yes Batman is a symbol, but you expect me to buy that ANYONE can be everything that I just described? Is John Blake from what was shown in this movie? He's far from it. Is John Blake a hero? Hell yes! Can his character as shown in this movie be Batman? HELL NO! Not anymore than a young Jim Gordon could. Who, by the way would have killed him if he were a criminal in the hospital scene. To say that anyone can be Batman completely demotes his status as a hero.
It is pretty obvious that Blake will be batman. Gotham needs a batman. Anyone can be batman. Batman is a symbol. This was all established in the first movie and beat to death in the following two. Was no one listening? Sheesh! Lol Blake would know Bruce is alive because he will become a great detective. Bruce obviously feels safe enough to leave Blake the city and the cowl that he can score some Selina. In essence, when you see Blake as anything other than batman you are destroying the symbol of batman. Especially with all the bat,an imitators about. There is only one batman.
Mike, I had to create an account just to disagree with your comment. No, not anyone can be Batman. If that were the case any decent detective could slide into the Batcave, put on the suit and be Batman. It is the man inside the suit that makes the hero. Bruce Wayne, even in this incarnation, is a man who was born out of tragedy, a man who used his resources to spent a decade training, becoming more than just an ordinary man. The Bruce in this movie spent years with ninjas, and living in prisons to understand how the criminal mind works. Yes Batman is a symbol, but you expect me to buy that ANYONE can be everything that I just described? Is John Blake from what was shown in this movie? He's far from it. Is John Blake a hero? Hell yes! Can his character as shown in this movie be Batman? HELL NO! Not anymore than a young Jim Gordon could. Who, by the way would have killed him if he were a criminal in the hospital scene. To say that anyone can be Batman completely demotes his status as a hero.
Batman, as the movie states, is a symbol. Batman is an ideal. Something the city needs for redemption. Bruce passed batman on to Blake. Three movies of the story telling you this would happen. Blake will need to train and learn to be batman. Bruce did also. In the nolanverse batman is a suit and a symbol that is used by a man for the greater good. They say anyone in the movies. Clearly Bruce feels otherwise, and chose Blake.
I think the key distinction is that in Nolan's version of Batman anyone could be Batman. I do not think that is a great concept which is one of the knocks I have with the third film.
absolutely but his martial arts training in the first one doesn't seem to coincide with how he actually fights, there's a lot more dodging instead of just taking a shot to give one
i don't want a crouching tiger high wire act but a little more showing off wouldn't hurt
saying that high wire thing reminded me, i didn't like it (in this movie or in any others) when someone is down on all fours and they get kicked in the side and go flying 15 foot
while I'm throwing stuff out there did Bane die? I know he got hit by the bat pod missile or whatever it was but they didn't show him after that did they? I guess he died but I thought I saw batman get nuked too who's to say
absolutely but his martial arts training in the first one doesn't seem to coincide with how he actually fights, there's a lot more dodging instead of just taking a shot to give one
i don't want a crouching tiger high wire act but a little more showing off wouldn't hurt
I also noticed that Batman's fighting seemed slower and more planted in this movie compared to the prior two, but I thought that was on purpose given that he is now past his prime and has that leg brace. I took that as the reason why he did more standing and boxing, and less jumping and flipping. And, given that some of the best fight directors in the business do movies like these, I wouldn't be surprised if they designed his fights differently with that sort of thing in mind.
Just saw the film last night. Huge, huge movie. Loved it, but it really, REALLY took the Batman framework and ran with it. It was barely a comic book movie, and I'm still waiting for a Batman detective/crime film that isn't so much about the gadgets.
I think the old argument about whether or not comic book films need to be true to the comics is settled with this film and Avengers. Both are valid approaches if handled properly. Avengers showed that a film that stays as true as possible to the spirit of the comics can work, and Batman showed that an action drama that just happens to have capes in it can work.
Just saw the film last night. Huge, huge movie. Loved it, but it really, REALLY took the Batman framework and ran with it. It was barely a comic book movie, and I'm still waiting for a Batman detective/crime film that isn't so much about the gadgets.
I think the old argument about whether or not comic book films need to be true to the comics is settled with this film and Avengers. Both are valid approaches if handled properly. Avengers showed that a film that stays as true as possible to the spirit of the comics can work, and Batman showed that an action drama that just happens to have capes in it can work.
I'm realizing I've been tweeting about this movie too much because I just tried to retweet this post.
while I'm throwing stuff out there did Bane die? I know he got hit by the bat pod missile or whatever it was but they didn't show him after that did they? I guess he died but I thought I saw batman get nuked too who's to say
I'm going with "If not dead, definitely not enjoying life right now." He took a missile straight to the chest that blew him into a doorway and exploded. I don't care how tough you are or how impressive your flak jacket is, it's not going to protect against that.
Problems I had with Bane in general continue - Batman's no dummy. "Hmm...seems my adversary has a strange contraption on his face. Let's get that off him." This before he even confronts him.
OR Gordon, also no dummy. "Hmm...seems our adversary is covered head to toe...wait, no, he has a bright spot right there on that bald dome of his. Sniper one, take the shot."
Now of course they took great pains to put plot points in place to prevent either of those things from happening. I get that. Still...if we don't see Bane again in the reboots, it won't be too soon...
Anyone who thinks Blake was not going to assume the mantle of Batman at the conclusion is only fooling himself. The title of the film is "The Dark Knight Rises" - who do you think it's referring to? The final image depicts him physically rising in the Batcave. If you want to imagine him being called Nightwing instead that's fine but nothing within the movie supports that
Robin John Blake might be an interesting addition to the DCU someday just like Harley Quinn migrated from tv. I'm just glad that Damian won't ever exist in the Nolan Universe.
Anyone who thinks Blake was not going to assume the mantle of Batman at the conclusion is only fooling himself. The title of the film is "The Dark Knight Rises" - who do you think it's referring to? The final image depicts him physically rising in the Batcave. If you want to imagine him being called Nightwing instead that's fine but nothing within the movie supports that
Robin John Blake might be an interesting addition to the DCU someday just like Harley Quinn migrated from tv. I'm just glad that Damian won't ever exist in the Nolan Universe.
Wouldn't the "rises" part refer to Bruce? He's hit bottom by the time he's broken (and literally at the bottom of a well), than rises back.
Plus, if it's a reference to Blake, shouldn't they have revealed his first name earlier? If they did, it would've taken away from Bruce's story because everyone would've been waiting for Blake to suit up.
I think the title can be seen as referring to both Blake & Wayne. The fact that Blake's first name is Robin was simply a nod to the audience & Bat history. It's simply there to give you a smile as you exit the theater. The fact that Blake becomes Batman is not meant to be the driving plot line of the film but anyone who ever read a comic book would have to know he was to be Gotham's futur savior had to know that was to happen from his first scenes: the fact that he's an orphan was the key moment ( superhero & pop lit in general is lousy with orphans. The fact he knew Wayne's true identity and Bruce did nothing about it was the other big clue.
I'm curious, was anyone shocked by Blake's character arc? I'm no genius but I assumed this was the ending months ago when the producers were so hush hush on the character. It's the same with Talia. You don't hire an Oscar winner to simply play "Miranda."
A. I really enjoyed the old school brawling that batman does in these movies.
B. my opinion. I think rises refers to the legend of batman. Batman was in hiding. Bat,an returned and rose to defend Gotham again, to be a hero again. Blake and Bruce both fit this.
C. I am really enjoying this discussion, btw! Lots of interesting ideas and opinions!!!!
Right saw the film last night and over all I liked it, I liked the ending a lot and I think it made it clear this was the end of the Nolan series. I really liked Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle, though she had the mandatory sexy costume she was not a sex object which was refreshing for superhero films. However I wasn't a fan of the Bane mask and I found the music score too loud and repetitive again. I liked the Talia twist and though I didn't see it coming though I was thinking "Ra's son didn't become Bane" and "The kid escaped but the old dude said his face was messed up in the pit" Overall it was good but I felt that it still lacked any detective skills from Batman.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but there was a small thing in the wrap-scenes at the end, that I only noticed on a second viewing. In between Fox, Alfred and Blakes' endings there's scene showing Bruce's assets being catalogued for debt collection but they say they couldn't find a particular pearl necklace. Guess who happens to be wearing it again at the cafe in Italy?
Comments
Going off that, Bruce could've kept Batman gone, but supplied law enforcement with great equipment through his company. Kinda like Batman, Inc but without the parts that irritate me.
I felt Bane & Talia were successful because both Bruce & Batman were in exile, instead of just Batman.
M
That's a good point, too. I agree. And while I understand that- if the lesson that Bruce needed to learn was to trust others, or something like that- if indeed we were supposed to believe that he trusted Blake so much that he can just bequeath him the cave and not look back, then I think Bruce learned that lesson a little too well.
Thats exactly how i think we are to take it. Bruce is retired and off in europe to, as you say, drink coffee and make babies and Blake has the batcave and the bat mantle to take care of the city. and since the bat signal was repaired im pretty sure he is intended to continue as Batman rather than soem variant thereof.
And in regards to Batman not being in the movie enough - the movie was (partly) based on the Knighfall series of stories, where Bruce spent most of the story in a wheelchair so I'm fine with it.
Was no one listening? Sheesh!
Lol
Blake would know Bruce is alive because he will become a great detective. Bruce obviously feels safe enough to leave Blake the city and the cowl that he can score some Selina.
In essence, when you see Blake as anything other than batman you are destroying the symbol of batman.
Especially with all the bat,an imitators about. There is only one batman.
M
Blake will need to train and learn to be batman. Bruce did also. In the nolanverse batman is a suit and a symbol that is used by a man for the greater good.
They say anyone in the movies.
Clearly Bruce feels otherwise, and chose Blake.
Wade in hold your armored gauntlets up and let the guy punch himself out then go for the knockout punch.
That's not the way the league of shadows taught him to fight is it?
M
i don't want a crouching tiger high wire act but a little more showing off wouldn't hurt
saying that high wire thing reminded me, i didn't like it (in this movie or in any others) when someone is down on all fours and they get kicked in the side and go flying 15 foot
while I'm throwing stuff out there did Bane die? I know he got hit by the bat pod missile or whatever it was but they didn't show him after that did they? I guess he died but I thought I saw batman get nuked too who's to say
I think the old argument about whether or not comic book films need to be true to the comics is settled with this film and Avengers. Both are valid approaches if handled properly. Avengers showed that a film that stays as true as possible to the spirit of the comics can work, and Batman showed that an action drama that just happens to have capes in it can work.
M
Problems I had with Bane in general continue - Batman's no dummy. "Hmm...seems my adversary has a strange contraption on his face. Let's get that off him." This before he even confronts him.
OR Gordon, also no dummy. "Hmm...seems our adversary is covered head to toe...wait, no, he has a bright spot right there on that bald dome of his. Sniper one, take the shot."
Now of course they took great pains to put plot points in place to prevent either of those things from happening. I get that. Still...if we don't see Bane again in the reboots, it won't be too soon...
Robin John Blake might be an interesting addition to the DCU someday just like Harley Quinn migrated from tv. I'm just glad that Damian won't ever exist in the Nolan Universe.
Plus, if it's a reference to Blake, shouldn't they have revealed his first name earlier? If they did, it would've taken away from Bruce's story because everyone would've been waiting for Blake to suit up.
M
I'm curious, was anyone shocked by Blake's character arc? I'm no genius but I assumed this was the ending months ago when the producers were so hush hush on the character. It's the same with Talia. You don't hire an Oscar winner to simply play "Miranda."
B. my opinion. I think rises refers to the legend of batman. Batman was in hiding. Bat,an returned and rose to defend Gotham again, to be a hero again. Blake and Bruce both fit this.
C. I am really enjoying this discussion, btw! Lots of interesting ideas and opinions!!!!
However I wasn't a fan of the Bane mask and I found the music score too loud and repetitive again.
I liked the Talia twist and though I didn't see it coming though I was thinking "Ra's son didn't become Bane" and "The kid escaped but the old dude said his face was messed up in the pit"
Overall it was good but I felt that it still lacked any detective skills from Batman.