@Matt, listening to the episode for TDKR and I have to say I'm not sure I've ever heard someone think about one movie (or three) in such detail (in a good way). It was a lot of good insight and very interesting how you drew all the "full circle" items in the trilogy. I can't believe you don't even have an interest to read Batman anymore given how much you can get from a 3 hour movie. At least try some comics man!
@Matt, listening to the episode for TDKR and I have to say I'm not sure I've ever heard someone think about one movie (or three) in such detail (in a good way). It was a lot of good insight and very interesting how you drew all the "full circle" items in the trilogy. I can't believe you don't even have an interest to read Batman anymore given how much you can get from a 3 hour movie. At least try some comics man!
I'm reading comics; I've been getting The Shadow & The Spider since DE started their series.
If you're referring to Batman titles, there's too much stuff added to the character the last few years I don't agree with. Daimon, his death, Inc are just a couple of them. I'm sure there's some interesting stories over the past 6 years, but these are still in the current mythos. Even with a new 52 universe.
The big aspect I don't care for is that most stories are Bruce Wayne based instead of Batman based. Look at what Morrison laid out with Black Glove & Snyder has done with the Court of Owls. The plots are basically revenge against Bruce & the Wayne family v against Batman.
For the ep I had the benefit of attending the marathon to see those points (though I forgot to not both Ra's & Talia cut/stab Bruce/Batman in his right side when the "switch" is revealed). Plus, since I knew the ending, I could focus on other things in the movie & not try to figure out the ending.
I'm reading comics; I've been getting The Shadow & The Spider since DE started their series.
If you're referring to Batman titles, there's too much stuff added to the character the last few years I don't agree with. Daimon, his death, Inc are just a couple of them. I'm sure there's some interesting stories over the past 6 years, but these are still in the current mythos. Even with a new 52 universe.
The big aspect I don't care for is that most stories are Bruce Wayne based instead of Batman based. Look at what Morrison laid out with Black Glove & Snyder has done with the Court of Owls. The plots are basically revenge against Bruce & the Wayne family v against Batman.
For the ep I had the benefit of attending the marathon to see those points (though I forgot to not both Ra's & Talia cut/stab Bruce/Batman in his right side when the "switch" is revealed). Plus, since I knew the ending, I could focus on other things in the movie & not try to figure out the ending.
M
That's fair, I was meaning more Batman titles btw. I thought a couple of years ago I was done with Batman too, but the new 52 stuff at least has some new twists and stuff that are new to me at least. Glad you are back on the comic buying wagon!
He stresses in TDKR that anyone could be Batman. BUT, in TDK, he told Dent he's the symbol of hope Batman could never be.
[...] it isn't 100% sure thing Blake becomes Batman. He just needs to be a symbol of hope.
I agree and it is what I was trying to say a few posts back:
I don't see why Blake has to become Batman. The symbol doesn't have to be the bat. Heck, Bruce was ready to hand the reins over to Dent who didn't even dress up. I think Batman's resources were left to Blake but what he decided to do with them were up to him. Bruce was able to walk away knowing Blake would take care of Gotham no matter how he decided to do it.
Why the resistance to acknowledging Blake as the new Batman?
I'd ask why the resistance to acknowledge its probable, but not clear cut & definitive? It was promoted as "The Legend of The Dark Knight Ends/Concludes" not "...Continues"
I picked up the novelization Tuesday evening, and am now nearly halfway through it. So maybe by the end of the weekend I'll be done and be able to say whether it is or not. So far there certainly has been insight into the thinking of some of the characters... always in italics.
BleedingCool has an article that talks about the novelization's mention of The Joker. It seems nobody knows what really happened to him.
I find it odd that the movie did not talk about him at all. Viewing the movies as a trilogy really reinforces this. At the end of "Begins" you have the introduction of the character. The Dark Knight has him as the main villain but then "Rises" ignores the character all together.
I understand Ledger's death makes an appearance impossible but why not have someone in the movie at least make reference to the Joker's current situation or even his demise?
Okay, just bought the novelization. There was one of two scenes that would've convinced me Blake would definitely become Batman. One was donning the cowl. The other would mirror the scene where Bruce was surrounded by bats coming to gripes with his fear in the cave.
Upon reflection I think I had heard some spoilers about Blake before going in to see the movie and I spent a large chunk of head space watching that characters development perhaps at the expense of the rest of the movie. I was waiting to see him put on the cowl and so was very disappointed when that didn't actually happen.
Upon reflection I think I had heard some spoilers about Blake before going in to see the movie and I spent a large chunk of head space watching that characters development perhaps at the expense of the rest of the movie. I was waiting to see him put on the cowl and so was very disappointed when that didn't actually happen.
Which is what would have happened for the rest of us if he was named drake or grayson.
Okay, just bought the novelization. There was one of two scenes that would've convinced me Blake would definitely become Batman. One was donning the cowl. The other would mirror the scene where Bruce was surrounded by bats coming to gripes with his fear in the cave.
One of those 2 happens, so I'm convinced.
M
In the movie the second one happens. And just now I skipped to the end to read that scene too. There is a small amount extra there that helps us understand Blake's thinking.
Okay, just bought the novelization. There was one of two scenes that would've convinced me Blake would definitely become Batman. One was donning the cowl. The other would mirror the scene where Bruce was surrounded by bats coming to gripes with his fear in the cave.
One of those 2 happens, so I'm convinced.
M
In the movie the second one happens. And just now I skipped to the end to read that scene too. There is a small amount extra there that helps us understand Blake's thinking.
Hope I didn't spoil the book's end. I actually forgot that scene with Blake until I saw the movie again last night.
I've been thinking if they do a Catwoman movie I'd like to see a "side-quel". Do a flashback of her origin, but have the movie deal with what she was doing during the No Man's Land portion of TDKR. End with her dealing with Batman's death, saying goodbye to Holly, than reconnecting with Bruce.
It could be a movie that takes place during TDKR; one of the Saw movies did it & I thought it was brilliant.
But dent was what batman couldn't be. Exactly. Blake is what can be batman. Not better. All hope of batman not being needed died with dent. So Gotham needs a batman
But dent was what batman couldn't be. Exactly. Blake is what can be batman. Not better. All hope of batman not being needed died with dent. So Gotham needs a batman
Since you put that out there, along with the statement that all 3 movies clearly points to Blake becoming Batman, where's the "anyone can be Batman bit from TDK?"
BleedingCool has an article that talks about the novelization's mention of The Joker. It seems nobody knows what really happened to him.
I find it odd that the movie did not talk about him at all. Viewing the movies as a trilogy really reinforces this. At the end of "Begins" you have the introduction of the character. The Dark Knight has him as the main villain but then "Rises" ignores the character all together.
I understand Ledger's death makes an appearance impossible but why not have someone in the movie at least make reference to the Joker's current situation or even his demise?
I finally read Nolan's interview from Entertainment Weekly and he said they just left it alone out of respect for Heath. They just didn't want to touch. So while it was weird there was no mention of the Joker but I understand his reasons. Leave it to our imagination.
But dent was what batman couldn't be. Exactly. Blake is what can be batman. Not better. All hope of batman not being needed died with dent. So Gotham needs a batman
Since you put that out there, along with the statement that all 3 movies clearly points to Blake becoming Batman, where's the "anyone can be Batman bit from TDK?"
M
I just watched the movie a second time on Friday, and before that I viewed the first two movies throughout the week. I went in giving the benefit of the doubt that, "anyone can be Batman". After watching this movie again, what Nolan is showing, and what Nolan is saying are two completely different things.
In this Nolan universe, it took Bruce 7 years of training, in prisons, with ninja's etc, to become what it took to be Batman. It showed how he was ready to handle just about any situation, use the shadows as his ally, and take on a group of thugs on his own.
What Nolan also showed, is how Blake is a great cop, detective, and a hothead. How he'll follow his instinct and rush into a situation even if it gets himself killed. Those are the makings of a good ally for a batman to have on the streets, but not for someone to become batman as the movie implies.
There are two specific scenes that show how Blake is not fit to be Batman. One is when Blake rushes in to the hospital and would have been killed by Gordon had Gordon been one of the men in Banes army. The other is at the end when Batman had to step in and take out the thugs on his own as Blake watched in awe.
What Nolan says and what he shows are two completely different things, he's saying anyone can be Batman, even a regular cop like Blake, yet at the same time he shows how Bruce Wayne had to train to become this force of Nature to be able to put on the bat suit. Nolan showed how you have to be more than just a regular man with a few gadgets and a suit. The entire pit sequence solidifies that.
We're suppose to believe that a cop with 2-3 years of training in the Academy is fit to be Batman? By those standards, my cousin who is young and a hell of a detective for his police force down here can be Batman. We grew up together and he told me everything he went through in his journey to become a cop. Although I'm proud of him, and he's a hero, he's even said to me, "It's not like they've trained us to be Batman".
Geeky39, I'm not going to say you have it all wrong, but...
In my mind, I could see Blake figuring out he needs a lot more training, going off and figuring out, almost definitly in a different way than Bruce did (without the League of Shadows), how to get that training, and coming back to be Batman.
I was reading Peter David's review of the movie. He stated Nolan's original script had Bruce die, but DC wouldn't sign off on it. Makes sense that he kept saying no autopilot even to Fox.
About the 'anyone can be Batman', I think they mean anyone can do something to help someone else or just do a good deed. Even if it's just putting a coat on a boy's shoulders and tell him the world hasn't ended. It's not literally Batman, but the ideal of Batman helping people.
Listening to Rios now. Reminds me of one thing from the movie I wanted to talk about. His GF mentioned Talia appearing at odd places at odd times. It is where Bane asks her brought to him in the court scene, but then after that there is a scene where she is with Fox when Bruce is brought/fake captured to where they are. This I caught on my 2nd viewing of the movie yesterday. Also, I'm 13 pages from finishing the book, and chapters 38 and, I think, 41, are the most different from the movie.
So, what I really wanted to talk about is the timeline that isn't seen in the movie. For instance, was Bane trained by Ra's before or after Bruce was? How much time passed in Batman Begins from Bruce's training to Ra's' death on the train? Was there enough time then for Bane's training? If not, then Bane might be older than Bruce. And Talia could be younger than Bruce, or maybe the same age. Any other timeline questions? I'll be back to post more, I think.
Just heard someone say that when Bane and his gang go into the tunnel on bikes(after the stock market scene) it's day light outside. This is where Batman first appears and as they leave the tunnel it's dark outside.
People are seeing this as a mistake. I guess the symbolism is going right over their heads.
Just heard someone say that when Bane and his gang go into the tunnel on bikes(after the stock market scene) it's day light outside. This is where Batman first appears and as they leave the tunnel it's dark outside.
I hadn't noticed that. Love it! Thanks. The book points out Gordon's thoughts about seeing the Dark Knight in sunlight for the first time at the end.
Anyone else think Bruce and Talia got it on a little too quickly...?
Perhaps they had more of a history than I understood from the dialogue with Alfred and Lucius.
Scenes like that made the movie seem a little rushed to me.
Talia wants to screw, literally and figuratively, with Bruce/Batman to make things tougher for him possibly if there's a chance that she can let him know who it was really behind it all later, which she does.
I liked it for the most part, bus was a little disappointed with parts of it. I thought Bane's origin was a little forced into the existing milieu. I saw Robin,Talia and having to climb the pit without the rope a mile away, and I couldn't help but wonder at the end how the Batman era was going to continue, given that Bruce Wayne was broke at the end. But it was entertaining and worth the price of admission. A solid B, IMHO.
Anyone else think Bruce and Talia got it on a little too quickly...?
Perhaps they had more of a history than I understood from the dialogue with Alfred and Lucius.
Scenes like that made the movie seem a little rushed to me.
In our review ep, the guys said Bruce & Talia met before to work on the fuel efficiency project. I yielded, but now I'm going to echo (based on my second viewing) that he didn't even meet Miranda until that charity function. There was a moment of hesitation before Bruce said "Miranda" after she lowered the mask.
It's not impossible to think the two were working together on that project without meeting. She didn't even know where it was!
I saw someone else complained that was rushed. I understood it as apart of Talia's plan, but Bruce's actions were based on his current state. He's just lost Alfred, his money, his company, etc & she's been his savior. Miranda will help with the board, protect the engery project, is interested in him, & made the first move. That scene reminded me of an episode of Angel where Angel was loosing everything & had adult relations with Darla just to "feel something besides the cold."
It's not impossible to think the two were working together on that project without meeting. She didn't even know where it was!
That seems contradictory. Can you please expand?
Sure, I think it's feasible the two talked, email, etc without actually seeing each other for meetings. It could've even been "go betweens" who did the face-to-face stuff. I can't believe did the project with face-to-face meetings & Miranda didn't even know where the project was located.
Comments
He stresses in TDKR that anyone could be Batman. BUT, in TDK, he told Dent he's the symbol of hope Batman could never be.
I would say how Batman looks at Dent gives good basis why it isn't 100% sure thing Blake becomes Batman. He just needs to be a symbol of hope.
Until Nolan comes out and says Blake becomes Batman, I'm not going to be 100% convinced.
M
If you're referring to Batman titles, there's too much stuff added to the character the last few years I don't agree with. Daimon, his death, Inc are just a couple of them. I'm sure there's some interesting stories over the past 6 years, but these are still in the current mythos. Even with a new 52 universe.
The big aspect I don't care for is that most stories are Bruce Wayne based instead of Batman based. Look at what Morrison laid out with Black Glove & Snyder has done with the Court of Owls. The plots are basically revenge against Bruce & the Wayne family v against Batman.
For the ep I had the benefit of attending the marathon to see those points (though I forgot to not both Ra's & Talia cut/stab Bruce/Batman in his right side when the "switch" is revealed). Plus, since I knew the ending, I could focus on other things in the movie & not try to figure out the ending.
M
I'm hoping it's addressed in the novelization.
M
I find it odd that the movie did not talk about him at all. Viewing the movies as a trilogy really reinforces this. At the end of "Begins" you have the introduction of the character. The Dark Knight has him as the main villain but then "Rises" ignores the character all together.
I understand Ledger's death makes an appearance impossible but why not have someone in the movie at least make reference to the Joker's current situation or even his demise?
One of those 2 happens, so I'm convinced.
M
M
It could be a movie that takes place during TDKR; one of the Saw movies did it & I thought it was brilliant.
M
M
In this Nolan universe, it took Bruce 7 years of training, in prisons, with ninja's etc, to become what it took to be Batman. It showed how he was ready to handle just about any situation, use the shadows as his ally, and take on a group of thugs on his own.
What Nolan also showed, is how Blake is a great cop, detective, and a hothead. How he'll follow his instinct and rush into a situation even if it gets himself killed. Those are the makings of a good ally for a batman to have on the streets, but not for someone to become batman as the movie implies.
There are two specific scenes that show how Blake is not fit to be Batman. One is when Blake rushes in to the hospital and would have been killed by Gordon had Gordon been one of the men in Banes army. The other is at the end when Batman had to step in and take out the thugs on his own as Blake watched in awe.
What Nolan says and what he shows are two completely different things, he's saying anyone can be Batman, even a regular cop like Blake, yet at the same time he shows how Bruce Wayne had to train to become this force of Nature to be able to put on the bat suit. Nolan showed how you have to be more than just a regular man with a few gadgets and a suit. The entire pit sequence solidifies that.
We're suppose to believe that a cop with 2-3 years of training in the Academy is fit to be Batman? By those standards, my cousin who is young and a hell of a detective for his police force down here can be Batman. We grew up together and he told me everything he went through in his journey to become a cop. Although I'm proud of him, and he's a hero, he's even said to me, "It's not like they've trained us to be Batman".
In my mind, I could see Blake figuring out he needs a lot more training, going off and figuring out, almost definitly in a different way than Bruce did (without the League of Shadows), how to get that training, and coming back to be Batman.
M
So, what I really wanted to talk about is the timeline that isn't seen in the movie. For instance, was Bane trained by Ra's before or after Bruce was? How much time passed in Batman Begins from Bruce's training to Ra's' death on the train? Was there enough time then for Bane's training? If not, then Bane might be older than Bruce. And Talia could be younger than Bruce, or maybe the same age. Any other timeline questions? I'll be back to post more, I think.
People are seeing this as a mistake. I guess the symbolism is going right over their heads.
Perhaps they had more of a history than I understood from the dialogue with Alfred and Lucius.
Scenes like that made the movie seem a little rushed to me.
Talia wants to screw, literally and figuratively, with Bruce/Batman to make things tougher for him possibly if there's a chance that she can let him know who it was really behind it all later, which she does.
It's not impossible to think the two were working together on that project without meeting. She didn't even know where it was!
I saw someone else complained that was rushed. I understood it as apart of Talia's plan, but Bruce's actions were based on his current state. He's just lost Alfred, his money, his company, etc & she's been his savior. Miranda will help with the board, protect the engery project, is interested in him, & made the first move. That scene reminded me of an episode of Angel where Angel was loosing everything & had adult relations with Darla just to "feel something besides the cold."
M
M