Small print runs mean what advertising there is pays less. And most ads seem to be house ads these days, which pay nothing, or ads for licensed material which probably get a discount.
And the market has shown that die-hard fans will pay $3.99 for the must-have titles. Even without extra content.
Indeed. Not to mention that- to pursue and manage relationships with advertisers- you need staff members separate from those generating the content. So there is added overhead even in pursuing and placing ads.
And, for @planeis and others wishing the prices are different, I am not pointing these details out to say it makes any better, or any less frustrating. But rather that there are simply more factors at play in the pricing of comics compared to the pricing of publications that are much more popular, or which have a longer and more established demographic base to sell to advertisers. I'm not saying that it is fair, but it is what it is. I don't think even the Big Two could do the sorts of deeply discounted subscriptions that ESPN or Wired do even if they wanted to. The numbers just aren't there.
How is that getting your moneys worth? Its not the same medium, but you can spend $5, just a little more, and get several hundred pages worth of content in a book. Or, like I wrote above for the similar medium of magazines you can get very cheap subscriptions. And not only that, but when I subscribe to Motor Trend or ESPN for $20 for two years I also get the digital versian of the magazine plus extra content for FREE.
Okay, I feel like I'm getting my money's worth.
It's not a book; it's more akin to a magazine, and it's cheaper than most magazines, and with a whole lot less ad content. I'm not much attracted to taditional mail subscriptions because that leaves the packaging prey to the mercies of the mail handler, and I've yet to receive a magazine or catalog that doesn't get manhandled and mangled in some unfortunate manner, so I don't feel like I'd be getting any benefit out of getting a cheap subscription to anything unless it were shipped inside a steel box.
The average comic at DC is $2.99 for 32 pages. That's 9.3 cents a page. The 40 page comic is $3.99; I'm paying an extra dollar for those 8 pages. (Ideally, I should only have to pay 75 cents, but what are you going to do?) Basically, I don't care. What matters is that there is more material and that there is an extra story. I don't even care if it's a story that I don't like; it's still an extra story. (Usually, I do like the extra story.) Therefore, I personally feel it's worth the extra buck and I want that extra story. I'd rather pay $3.99 for a 40 page comic than for a 32 page comic. (I'd feel a lot better, though, if I were paying $3.99 for a 48 page comic...)
I'm not attacking you or anything, I just feel very passionately about this topic. It is more akin to a magazine, which is why I compared it to that above. But its not cheaper than most magazines. It's not even close. A subscription to your favorite magazine could easily work out to be 75 cents or less per issue. Thats my whole point. You can get several years worth of your favorite magazine for $40 or less. And yes, they do have more ads. Sure, but they also have much, much, much more content. You can finish a comic in 10 minutes. Reading a magazine cover to cover takes one hour plus.
I get it if you want it to be in absolutely pristine condition that you want to buy it off the shelf. Fine. You can still do that just like you can buy magazines off the rack. But I've gotten plenty of magazines through the mail and they turn out just fine for my purposes.
And also, like I said, magazines offer subscriptions for super cheap compared to the cover price and give you the digital copy with extra content for FREE.
To echo what Torch was saying earlier, the unfortunate reality is that comics, as a readership, is not as attractive of a demographic to advertisers, as well as to the people that magazines and their affiliated subscription services resell our eyeballs to. Wired, Motor Trend, and ESPN can afford to make less on the cover price because they are reaching a harder to reach, more valuable demographic.
At the end of the day, as comics readers, what we like is a pretty rarefied thing. A sub-culture within a sub-culture. Our eyeballs are simply not as desired, so we end up having to pay more for our content. At the end of the day, a lot more people- and especially those in a more desired demographic- would rather read about cars, sports, and gadgets then read the continuing adventures of Superman and Batman (or, any fiction, for that matter). So, when you want something more rarefied, you end up having to pay more.
How is it a rare thing? Comic books characters are huge huge huge business. Readers have been driven away by the pricing model. Just this week I got 3 comics for a year for $25... but that was an EXTREME sale. Those are the first comics I have purchased in a year. I bought a few digital New 52's when they first came out before deciding that it was a) too expensive and b) silly that they didn't have subscriptions. Those comics were the first I had bought in many years. I know several people who were hardcore into comics, but eventually stopped reading them entirely because of the pricing.
They don't seem interested in experimenting. If DC sold a digital only subscription for one year for $10, which I feel is very fair because again its digital only, I would probably buy 10 titles. As of last week I bought none.
As far as niche markets go... doesn't the big titles sell around a hundred thousand? If they hadn't driven everyone away it'd be much higher. And little books that sell 20,000, yea um... sorry if your one of them but screw those people. Don't inflate the price of JLA because some other tiny comic barely survives because its sales are so low.
Small print runs mean what advertising there is pays less. And most ads seem to be house ads these days, which pay nothing, or ads for licensed material which probably get a discount.
And the market has shown that die-hard fans will pay $3.99 for the must-have titles. Even without extra content.
You might be right, the ads are seemingly in house ads, most likely because they drove the readership away. So whose fault is that?
How is that getting your moneys worth? Its not the same medium, but you can spend $5, just a little more, and get several hundred pages worth of content in a book. Or, like I wrote above for the similar medium of magazines you can get very cheap subscriptions. And not only that, but when I subscribe to Motor Trend or ESPN for $20 for two years I also get the digital versian of the magazine plus extra content for FREE.
Okay, I feel like I'm getting my money's worth.
It's not a book; it's more akin to a magazine, and it's cheaper than most magazines, and with a whole lot less ad content. I'm not much attracted to taditional mail subscriptions because that leaves the packaging prey to the mercies of the mail handler, and I've yet to receive a magazine or catalog that doesn't get manhandled and mangled in some unfortunate manner, so I don't feel like I'd be getting any benefit out of getting a cheap subscription to anything unless it were shipped inside a steel box.
The average comic at DC is $2.99 for 32 pages. That's 9.3 cents a page. The 40 page comic is $3.99; I'm paying an extra dollar for those 8 pages. (Ideally, I should only have to pay 75 cents, but what are you going to do?) Basically, I don't care. What matters is that there is more material and that there is an extra story. I don't even care if it's a story that I don't like; it's still an extra story. (Usually, I do like the extra story.) Therefore, I personally feel it's worth the extra buck and I want that extra story. I'd rather pay $3.99 for a 40 page comic than for a 32 page comic. (I'd feel a lot better, though, if I were paying $3.99 for a 48 page comic...)
I'm not attacking you or anything, I just feel very passionately about this topic. It is more akin to a magazine, which is why I compared it to that above. But its not cheaper than most magazines. It's not even close. A subscription to your favorite magazine could easily work out to be 75 cents or less per issue. Thats my whole point. You can get several years worth of your favorite magazine for $40 or less. And yes, they do have more ads. Sure, but they also have much, much, much more content. You can finish a comic in 10 minutes. Reading a magazine cover to cover takes one hour plus.
I get it if you want it to be in absolutely pristine condition that you want to buy it off the shelf. Fine. You can still do that just like you can buy magazines off the rack. But I've gotten plenty of magazines through the mail and they turn out just fine for my purposes.
And also, like I said, magazines offer subscriptions for super cheap compared to the cover price and give you the digital copy with extra content for FREE.
To echo what Torch was saying earlier, the unfortunate reality is that comics, as a readership, is not as attractive of a demographic to advertisers, as well as to the people that magazines and their affiliated subscription services resell our eyeballs to. Wired, Motor Trend, and ESPN can afford to make less on the cover price because they are reaching a harder to reach, more valuable demographic.
At the end of the day, as comics readers, what we like is a pretty rarefied thing. A sub-culture within a sub-culture. Our eyeballs are simply not as desired, so we end up having to pay more for our content. At the end of the day, a lot more people- and especially those in a more desired demographic- would rather read about cars, sports, and gadgets then read the continuing adventures of Superman and Batman (or, any fiction, for that matter). So, when you want something more rarefied, you end up having to pay more.
How is it a rare thing? Comic books characters are huge huge huge business. Readers have been driven away by the pricing model. Just this week I got 3 comics for a year for $25... but that was an EXTREME sale. Those are the first comics I have purchased in a year. I bought a few digital New 52's when they first came out before deciding that it was a) too expensive and b) silly that they didn't have subscriptions. Those comics were the first I had bought in many years. I know several people who were hardcore into comics, but eventually stopped reading them entirely because of the pricing.
They don't seem interested in experimenting. If DC sold a digital only subscription for one year for $10, which I feel is very fair because again its digital only, I would probably buy 10 titles. As of last week I bought none.
As far as niche markets go... doesn't the big titles sell around a hundred thousand? If they hadn't driven everyone away it'd be much higher. And little books that sell 20,000, yea um... sorry if your one of them but screw those people. Don't inflate the price of JLA because some other tiny comic barely survives because its sales are so low.
Buying something with the IP (a movie ticket, a video game, watching a cartoon, buying Batman pajamas for your kid) is not at all rare anymore. I absolutely agree.
Buying and reading comics- or actually ANY fiction- not for your education, but just to read for pleasure? Is unfortunately rare. The statistics on who does leisure reading, and is willing to pay to do so, especially fiction of any kind, are depressing.
As for whether there would be more readers if the comics were cheaper? Maybe. It is always hard to argue such a hypothetical. But, then, libraries lend out all sorts of books for free all the time, and the statistics- often reported on by the Library Association itself- of voluntary literacy are depressing. It is not just lowering the bar for how much reading costs- because there are all sorts of books and comics available for free- it is also getting a consumer to want to read at all.
And, yes, the Tanga.com sale was fantastic, and I made use of it, too. But I doubt a comics publisher could sustainably offer that level of discount on monthly comics. It may be even be that Tanga was underwriting part of those savings to try to turn comic book buyers into Tanga.com users. I could be wrong, but I am expecting that level of subscription discount will be something of a one-off.
I am not saying that it is great that comics are this expensive. It is not like I am excited to pay these prices, either. But despite how big superhero IPs are in the culture, reading those characters in comics is still a sub-culture of the already small People Who Read sub-culture. It's a bummer, but it is also a fact. I am just glad that there is even enough market for new comics to get made even as much as they do. But I also realize it is an expensive entertainment choice, because less people share it.
EDIT- And, to be clear, I am not saying that the publishers have been perfect in their approach, or that their business and pricing plans are infallible, or that audiences might not increase some if prices dropped. I have no stake in defending their actions, as they are doing what they are doing, these weren't my decisions, so it is not on my to apologize for them.
But I have trouble believing- and this is in general in these sorts of conversations, not just about what you are saying- that there is some huge, untapped audience just waiting for that price to drop in our culture. And if that happened, then despite all the cultural statistics about who doesn't read, they will suddenly read. There just needs to be that magic bullet low price. I just don't think that is likely.
Small print runs mean what advertising there is pays less. And most ads seem to be house ads these days, which pay nothing, or ads for licensed material which probably get a discount.
And the market has shown that die-hard fans will pay $3.99 for the must-have titles. Even without extra content.
You might be right, the ads are seemingly in house ads, most likely because they drove the readership away. So whose fault is that?
To keep things in context, lest we blame the publisher in a vacuum without considering the rest of the market, there is also less money in advertising in general in a down economy. And there is more competition for ad placement, as more and more ad revenue goes to digital and social media. And that is not a comic book pricing problem, that is a problem that periodicals and newspapers are facing all over.
I can understand your points @Planeis, while I don't agree with all of them, I don't think you are wrong in your thinking by any stretch. If Marvel or DC REALLY thought offering a year's subscription for $10 would drive readership up dramatically, I'm sure they would try. How can they though? Diamond takes a cut, you have to ship thte books to Diamond, then to the retailers. Also the cheap subscriptions you mention don't really affect bookstores. Do you think Barnes and Noble will care if I stop buying Playboy once a month? Do you think your LCS will care if I stop buying 20 DC titles a month from them?
Also to your point about magazines needing a lot of work too (which I agree they do), but your examply of taking 5000 pictures, how long does that take? In today's age I'm sure you could take 5000 pictures ina few days, sort them in another day, and the editor pick one or two in an hour. Every page of comics takes what, 3-4 days just for the art alone? I'm not sure they are really comparable.
I know everyone wants cheap comics, who doesn't? This reminds me of my hockey league I play in. Everyone complains about how expensive it is, but if it really is that expensive to you, spend your money that you think is more valuable in your eyes. We always talk about voting with your dollar, if you think comics are too expensive don't give them your money until it's at a price you think it's worth. I like hardcovers, and some are too expensive for my tastes. If I see it for what I think it's worth I buy it, if not, I just pass.
EDIT: I didn't mean this to come off like a super douche, just mean spend your money only when you are comfortable with the price.
Buying and reading comics- or actually ANY fiction- not for your education, but just to read for pleasure? Is unfortunately rare. The statistics on who does leisure reading, and is willing to pay to do so, especially fiction of any kind, are depressing.
Because nobody buys those Harry Potter and Twilight books.
Buying and reading comics- or actually ANY fiction- not for your education, but just to read for pleasure? Is unfortunately rare. The statistics on who does leisure reading, and is willing to pay to do so, especially fiction of any kind, are depressing.
Because nobody buys those Harry Potter and Twilight books.
No. People do. And did.
Now name me 20 more successful hit books that were big enough to enter the pop culture. 20 crossover hits that were so big even people who don't usually read read them. We can argues lists of 100 must see movies or must own albums. The sorts of things so commonly seen or listened to that you can argue that everybody sees movies or listens to music. Just name me 20 such books that prove that reading for fun is not a rare thing. And do it without checking Wikipedia ;)
And that is what makes the books you mentioned so rare and special. The reason they come to mind are because they are juggernaut successes.... and therefore outliers. Part of why their success got so much attention is that the success of ANY fiction book had become so rare. Ditto with the 50 Shades of Gray. It used to be that fiction books, and reading, WAS pop culture. Or even at the center of pop culture. That time has passed, which is why, when- and you can usually count this on one hand per decade- a book or series comes along that is popular enough to become pop culture, then we get very nostalgic for that time and a lot of reporting goes into it.
But even then, even with those outlier successes, you have to crunch those amazing numbers against the total population and you still come back to some realities about how much, and how often, people read for pleasure. How many books can you actually expect someone at work to have also read, a la Harry Potter? How short does that list become? But how reliably do you think you could talk blockbuster movies, popular TV, or World Series/Olympic/Playoff/Super Bowl sports at work or with strangers? This is a generalization, as I don't know where you work, but I would guess you could reliably strike up water cooler talk around those other things with more success. Put another way, sure, I know a lot of people in my own, reading and college educated demographic that have read Harry Potter. But I have never, when mixing with more diverse backgrounds at jobs or on public transit, in an elevator, etc., had someone ask me about whether I read that Harry Potter book the way that someone will ask me if I "saw the game" last night. You know what I mean? Even in the case of mega success books, reading for pleasure, especially as an adult, is still rarefied.
And for those few, successful franchises, sadly exponentially more books published each year can be named that find only a meager audience. Huge, outlier successes are fantastic, encouraging, and should be celebrated. But they are not the norm. They are outliers, and can't be depended on.
What I am saying, to try to get back to the point at hand, is that even if you lowered the price of Action Comics back to 10 cents is that it doesn't mean people will anticipate and want to read it each month the way they wanted to read a Harry Potter or Twilight book every few years. You can't build a business plan on it. And the outsized success of a few books does not a reading culture make. Unfortunately.
No argument there. My main point though was that it's not impossible to make money off of literature, it just needs to be available. And comic books aren't. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, etc. are all a part of the popular collective consciousness every bit as much as Harry Potter is and I think that if their literary adventures were available as readily as Harry Potter is, that they would sell considerably more copies than a lot of people think they would. If a reasonably priced stack of Amazing Spider-Man books were available in the checkout line at Wal-Mart next to People magazine, it would sell in numbers that would cause the bean counters who are used to the current numbers faint, I have no doubt of that.
Nobody said 10 cents. I did say that a $10 digital only subscription would be VERY fair. No cut going to Diamond, no cost of printing, no ink, no paper, no manufacturing.
Do you not know anyone who has basically stopped buying comics because of the price? I know several and even the guys on the show talk about it all the time.
No argument there. My main point though was that it's not impossible to make money off of literature, it just needs to be available. And comic books aren't. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, etc. are all a part of the popular collective consciousness every bit as much as Harry Potter is and I think that if their literary adventures were available as readily as Harry Potter is, that they would sell considerably more copies than a lot of people think they would. If a reasonably priced stack of Amazing Spider-Man books were available in the checkout line at Wal-Mart next to People magazine, it would sell in numbers that would cause the bean counters who are used to the current numbers faint, I have no doubt of that.
It becomes a sort of chicken and egg though, doesn't it? How long would comics need to have shelf space like People Magazine before the ubiquitous has any effect? And who is going to foot the bill during that time? Remember, part of why comics lost newsstand space is that they didn't make the retailers enough money relative to the more expensive magazines they could sell. I feel like we are hearing arguments that they need to be cheaper, and need to be displayed and carried by more people. Those are opposing forces. Sure, an airport newsstand might carry Harry Potter mass market trade paperbacks, but that is because for the space it takes to display them, you are looking at a potential ten dollar impulse buy. Keeping up on the latest issues of this or that comic can be a hard thing to compete with shelf space that you could otherwise sell gum or US Weekly with. Which have already proven to be more dependable.
Again, it is a bummer, but personally I don't believe that if you necessarily make it available they will come. Especially as comics actually are pretty available. I can't think of many places- maybe outside a tiny newsstand- that would have a Harry Potter book and not have at least a comic or two. Certainly all the bookstores and libraries have them.
Nobody said 10 cents. I did say that a $10 digital only subscription would be VERY fair. No cut going to Diamond, no cost of printing, no ink, no paper, no manufacturing.
Unfortunately the costs of putting comics content on paper is actually not the big part of the price tag. The cost of hiring professionals to make the content in the first place- and not just the writers and artists, but all the behind the scenes people, too- is actually the most expensive part of the process. And distributing digitally does not defray those costs.
Maybe like the video game industry is starting to realize (EA recently) that what they've been charging isn't working, and adjusting down accordingly, the comics industry will too, soon hopefully.
Not if it's a Brian Michael Bendis book who insists that people want to pay $3.99 for a book because guess what? People pay $3.99 for a book and it's not going to change unless people start voting with their wallet and don't buy that book.
I do vote with my wallet, and I don't buy any Marvel.
Working for a major publishing company who deals with digital versions of their printed material, there is actually a lot that goes into making digital versions from coding, and resizing for the particular device and other aspects that I'm not as familiar with but it takes people to make that happen and those people have salaries and whatnot so it costs money. Also, when it comes to digital, people who subscribe to digital versions of magazine don't come anywhere near the amount of people that get that same subscription via print. Other than remembering that Wired Magazine is the top selling digital magazine for subscriptions, I forget how many copies it actually sells but I do know it's lets then 75,000 which isn't very good. Digital subscriptions have a long way to go before they start making money for companies.
Working for a major publishing company who deals with digital versions of their printed material, there is actually a lot that goes into making digital versions from coding, and resizing for the particular device and other aspects that I'm not as familiar with but it takes people to make that happen and those people have salaries and whatnot so it costs money. Also, when it comes to digital, people who subscribe to digital versions of magazine don't come anywhere near the amount of people that get that same subscription via print. Other than remembering that Wired Magazine is the top selling digital magazine for subscriptions, I forget how many copies it actually sells but I do know it's lets then 75,000 which isn't very good. Digital subscriptions have a long way to go before they start making money for companies.
That is a good point, too.
And remember-- even if Marvel and DC had the hypothetical 10 issues for $10 subscriptions to try to cut out the middle men and get right at their consumers... they would still need to FIND their consumers. And make their consumers aware that these subscriptions are available in sufficient enough numbers to sell the kind of volume of subscriptions that justifies that deeply discounted price. And messaging that out to present readers, and especially these would-be new readers, also costs money.
It's not like comics couldn't advertise to people but like @David_D says, it costs money to do so. I listen to a podcast where the hosts run a comic store in Yellow Springs Ohio. I remember one of the hosts giving the number of people who watch the Big Bang Theory and then he compared it to the best selling comic book of that month and the difference in numbers was so incredibly large that I believe if that best selling book had even 1% of what the Big Bang Theory audience is, they would have more than doubled it's numbers. Hell, another person who works there once lost an argument with a woman who was convinced comic books weren't even made anymore. He works at a damn store and he lost the argument. It was kind of funny now that I think about it.
In comparisons to magazines... I don't buy hardly any magazines anymore. Not in print or digitally. I can't bring myself to do it when there is so much online to read (these forums, blogs, etc.)... for free.
Small print runs mean what advertising there is pays less. And most ads seem to be house ads these days, which pay nothing, or ads for licensed material which probably get a discount.
And the market has shown that die-hard fans will pay $3.99 for the must-have titles. Even without extra content.
You might be right, the ads are seemingly in house ads, most likely because they drove the readership away. So whose fault is that?
To keep things in context, lest we blame the publisher in a vacuum without considering the rest of the market, there is also less money in advertising in general in a down economy. And there is more competition for ad placement, as more and more ad revenue goes to digital and social media. And that is not a comic book pricing problem, that is a problem that periodicals and newspapers are facing all over.
And comics readers are perceived by advertisers as a niche market, not the much larger, younger market they were in the days before the Direct Market.
Maybe like the video game industry is starting to realize (EA recently) that what they've been charging isn't working, and adjusting down accordingly, the comics industry will too, soon hopefully.
Not if it's a Brian Michael Bendis book who insists that people want to pay $3.99 for a book because guess what? People pay $3.99 for a book and it's not going to change unless people start voting with their wallet and don't buy that book.
I do vote with my wallet, and I don't buy any Marvel.
See, I did the same for a time until I found a few Marvel books that weren't $3.99 that I liked. Unfortunately they aren't Brian Michael Bendis books as I do like his writing but not his price point.
Hell, another person who works there once lost an argument with a woman who was convinced comic books weren't even made anymore. He works at a damn store and he lost the argument. It was kind of funny now that I think about it.
I want to hear more about that. Please explain or point me to where I can hear that. Thanks.
I forget the episode of the show but the podcast is called "The Super-Fly Podcast". They are pretty damn awesome and there was a time this lady said something along the lines of they don't make comics anymore. The guy said, yeah, they do. The woman just insisted that they don't and somehow the dude gave up the argument. It was kind of funny. I wish I knew what episode it was. I'll tweet him and see if he remembers the episode.
Working for a major publishing company who deals with digital versions of their printed material, there is actually a lot that goes into making digital versions from coding, and resizing for the particular device and other aspects that I'm not as familiar with but it takes people to make that happen and those people have salaries and whatnot so it costs money. Also, when it comes to digital, people who subscribe to digital versions of magazine don't come anywhere near the amount of people that get that same subscription via print. Other than remembering that Wired Magazine is the top selling digital magazine for subscriptions, I forget how many copies it actually sells but I do know it's lets then 75,000 which isn't very good. Digital subscriptions have a long way to go before they start making money for companies.
That is a good point, too.
And remember-- even if Marvel and DC had the hypothetical 10 issues for $10 subscriptions to try to cut out the middle men and get right at their consumers... they would still need to FIND their consumers. And make their consumers aware that these subscriptions are available in sufficient enough numbers to sell the kind of volume of subscriptions that justifies that deeply discounted price. And messaging that out to present readers, and especially these would-be new readers, also costs money.
Well you must be right. They should just keep doing things the eay theyve been doing them. That way the market will shrink and shrink and prices will go up and up.
How about this? How about they try it. Theyve had digital out for a year and we havent seen them do it with one single title.
Now that's for single issues, admittedly not a "subscription". Still a buck an issue equates to 10 for $10.
Your subscription model also exists, but not from the Big 2. Not yet.
Shonen Jump Alpha arrives weekly to people's iPads or other digital devices. $30 a year gets you 48 issues (they have a couple skip weeks), and each issue clocks it at around 180 pages.
I'd imagine DC and Marvel are watching this to see how it pays off...if it pays off...for Viz Communications.
Plus there's been grumblings about getting the Marvel DCU online for mobile devices...and if that happens katie bar the door. $60 a year for unlimited access to their back catalog? Can't be beat.
No. I dont. If your a fan of a small comic that a tiny amount of readers buy, fine. But prices on other comics shouldnt be jacked up to pay for it.
I'm not sure why if Book A is selling less you think that Book B's price gets jacked up. In the world of comics Book A just gets cancelled...
I DO think it would benefit the Big 2 to try one or two subscriptions for a year at a discount, but I imagine retailers' backlash could be quite negative if it is a larger book (like Spider-Man or Batman). You never know how big or small the market is unless you try, but I do agree with others in the thread that making cheap digital comics in't going to make books sell two or three times what they are currently, it'll more than likely shift people who are already buying it from their LCS to buying it digitally.
And little books that sell 20,000, yea um... sorry if your one of them but screw those people.
Excuse me?
Do you wish to rephrase this, perhaps?
No. I dont. If your a fan of a small comic that a tiny amount of readers buy, fine. But prices on other comics shouldnt be jacked up to pay for it.
That's not always the publisher's call. Usually, the size of the print run determines the final price, and the cost of the print run is determined by the printer. I've had experience on that end and know that the larger the run, the more the printer can knock off of the final fee. The reason for that is because a long run means less downtime and less changeover time for the presses. Small press and independents generally have lower runs which translates into higher price tags. I expect this also affects the major publishers to some degree as well.
Working for a major publishing company who deals with digital versions of their printed material, there is actually a lot that goes into making digital versions from coding, and resizing for the particular device and other aspects that I'm not as familiar with but it takes people to make that happen and those people have salaries and whatnot so it costs money. Also, when it comes to digital, people who subscribe to digital versions of magazine don't come anywhere near the amount of people that get that same subscription via print. Other than remembering that Wired Magazine is the top selling digital magazine for subscriptions, I forget how many copies it actually sells but I do know it's lets then 75,000 which isn't very good. Digital subscriptions have a long way to go before they start making money for companies.
That is a good point, too.
And remember-- even if Marvel and DC had the hypothetical 10 issues for $10 subscriptions to try to cut out the middle men and get right at their consumers... they would still need to FIND their consumers. And make their consumers aware that these subscriptions are available in sufficient enough numbers to sell the kind of volume of subscriptions that justifies that deeply discounted price. And messaging that out to present readers, and especially these would-be new readers, also costs money.
Well you must be right. They should just keep doing things the eay theyve been doing them. That way the market will shrink and shrink and prices will go up and up.
How about this? How about they try it. Theyve had digital out for a year and we havent seen them do it with one single title.
Except that they aren't doing things they way they used to do them. New things are being tried. Day and date digital is only just a year old. Digital firsts are less than a year old I believe. And isn't there another thread where deeply discounted subscriptions are being offered? Just because they are not doing what you think they should does not mean they are not trying anything.
I think sometimes as the fan- as the end user- we believe we have the vantage point to see what they all should do. And, hey, maybe a fan does have that answer. But how likely is it that the people who see all the real numbers, do this day in and day out, and depend on this business for their livelihood and health insurance just aren't thinking of something that one of us have thought of?
Working for a major publishing company who deals with digital versions of their printed material, there is actually a lot that goes into making digital versions from coding, and resizing for the particular device and other aspects that I'm not as familiar with but it takes people to make that happen and those people have salaries and whatnot so it costs money. Also, when it comes to digital, people who subscribe to digital versions of magazine don't come anywhere near the amount of people that get that same subscription via print. Other than remembering that Wired Magazine is the top selling digital magazine for subscriptions, I forget how many copies it actually sells but I do know it's lets then 75,000 which isn't very good. Digital subscriptions have a long way to go before they start making money for companies.
That is a good point, too.
And remember-- even if Marvel and DC had the hypothetical 10 issues for $10 subscriptions to try to cut out the middle men and get right at their consumers... they would still need to FIND their consumers. And make their consumers aware that these subscriptions are available in sufficient enough numbers to sell the kind of volume of subscriptions that justifies that deeply discounted price. And messaging that out to present readers, and especially these would-be new readers, also costs money.
Well you must be right. They should just keep doing things the eay theyve been doing them. That way the market will shrink and shrink and prices will go up and up.
How about this? How about they try it. Theyve had digital out for a year and we havent seen them do it with one single title.
Except that they aren't doing things they way they used to do them. New things are being tried. Day and date digital is only just a year old. Digital firsts are less than a year old I believe. And isn't there another thread where deeply discounted subscriptions are being offered? Just because they are not doing what you think they should does not mean they are not trying anything.
I think sometimes as the fan- as the end user- we believe we have the vantage point to see what they all should do. And, hey, maybe a fan does have that answer. But how likely is it that the people who see all the real numbers, do this day in and day out, and depend on this business for their livelihood and health insurance just aren't thinking of something that one of us have thought of?
dude that really sounds like you are just defending the status quo. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Something has got to change. In order to buy comics in 2012 you have to
a) know that you like comics (not a lot of filks stumbling across comics in the grocery store while mom is shopping like when we were kids)
b) know where to find comics (actively seek out a specialty store or website) (what other product in the world actively and deliberately limits its exposure to potential buyers)
c) have the money to buy comics ($3.99 price point is not holding up to a cost/benefit anaylysis for say 15 minutes entertainment)
i think that for comics to survive in the 21st century they MUST get into more hands. people like comics, not just us geeks but people in general. Why do we make comics hard to find? Comic art and writing is arguably better that perhaps it has ever been. Unfortunatley most "civilians" concept of what a comic is is 40 years out of date. i hope that the digital options available on tablets like the i pad will increase comics exposuer in the general public and i respect the hell out of Mark Waid for putting his money where his mouth is (literally) to launch his Thrillbent project. Even without digital i think that putting comics by the impulse items next to the frakking tabloids would result in greater sales that those generated by the...what 1200? specialty shops across America. Why the hell are comics not in every Wal-Mart in the country?
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And, for @planeis and others wishing the prices are different, I am not pointing these details out to say it makes any better, or any less frustrating. But rather that there are simply more factors at play in the pricing of comics compared to the pricing of publications that are much more popular, or which have a longer and more established demographic base to sell to advertisers. I'm not saying that it is fair, but it is what it is. I don't think even the Big Two could do the sorts of deeply discounted subscriptions that ESPN or Wired do even if they wanted to. The numbers just aren't there.
They don't seem interested in experimenting. If DC sold a digital only subscription for one year for $10, which I feel is very fair because again its digital only, I would probably buy 10 titles. As of last week I bought none.
As far as niche markets go... doesn't the big titles sell around a hundred thousand? If they hadn't driven everyone away it'd be much higher. And little books that sell 20,000, yea um... sorry if your one of them but screw those people. Don't inflate the price of JLA because some other tiny comic barely survives because its sales are so low.
Buying and reading comics- or actually ANY fiction- not for your education, but just to read for pleasure? Is unfortunately rare. The statistics on who does leisure reading, and is willing to pay to do so, especially fiction of any kind, are depressing.
As for whether there would be more readers if the comics were cheaper? Maybe. It is always hard to argue such a hypothetical. But, then, libraries lend out all sorts of books for free all the time, and the statistics- often reported on by the Library Association itself- of voluntary literacy are depressing. It is not just lowering the bar for how much reading costs- because there are all sorts of books and comics available for free- it is also getting a consumer to want to read at all.
And, yes, the Tanga.com sale was fantastic, and I made use of it, too. But I doubt a comics publisher could sustainably offer that level of discount on monthly comics. It may be even be that Tanga was underwriting part of those savings to try to turn comic book buyers into Tanga.com users. I could be wrong, but I am expecting that level of subscription discount will be something of a one-off.
I am not saying that it is great that comics are this expensive. It is not like I am excited to pay these prices, either. But despite how big superhero IPs are in the culture, reading those characters in comics is still a sub-culture of the already small People Who Read sub-culture. It's a bummer, but it is also a fact. I am just glad that there is even enough market for new comics to get made even as much as they do. But I also realize it is an expensive entertainment choice, because less people share it.
EDIT- And, to be clear, I am not saying that the publishers have been perfect in their approach, or that their business and pricing plans are infallible, or that audiences might not increase some if prices dropped. I have no stake in defending their actions, as they are doing what they are doing, these weren't my decisions, so it is not on my to apologize for them.
But I have trouble believing- and this is in general in these sorts of conversations, not just about what you are saying- that there is some huge, untapped audience just waiting for that price to drop in our culture. And if that happened, then despite all the cultural statistics about who doesn't read, they will suddenly read. There just needs to be that magic bullet low price. I just don't think that is likely.
Also to your point about magazines needing a lot of work too (which I agree they do), but your examply of taking 5000 pictures, how long does that take? In today's age I'm sure you could take 5000 pictures ina few days, sort them in another day, and the editor pick one or two in an hour. Every page of comics takes what, 3-4 days just for the art alone? I'm not sure they are really comparable.
I know everyone wants cheap comics, who doesn't? This reminds me of my hockey league I play in. Everyone complains about how expensive it is, but if it really is that expensive to you, spend your money that you think is more valuable in your eyes. We always talk about voting with your dollar, if you think comics are too expensive don't give them your money until it's at a price you think it's worth. I like hardcovers, and some are too expensive for my tastes. If I see it for what I think it's worth I buy it, if not, I just pass.
EDIT: I didn't mean this to come off like a super douche, just mean spend your money only when you are comfortable with the price.
Now name me 20 more successful hit books that were big enough to enter the pop culture. 20 crossover hits that were so big even people who don't usually read read them. We can argues lists of 100 must see movies or must own albums. The sorts of things so commonly seen or listened to that you can argue that everybody sees movies or listens to music. Just name me 20 such books that prove that reading for fun is not a rare thing. And do it without checking Wikipedia ;)
And that is what makes the books you mentioned so rare and special. The reason they come to mind are because they are juggernaut successes.... and therefore outliers. Part of why their success got so much attention is that the success of ANY fiction book had become so rare. Ditto with the 50 Shades of Gray. It used to be that fiction books, and reading, WAS pop culture. Or even at the center of pop culture. That time has passed, which is why, when- and you can usually count this on one hand per decade- a book or series comes along that is popular enough to become pop culture, then we get very nostalgic for that time and a lot of reporting goes into it.
But even then, even with those outlier successes, you have to crunch those amazing numbers against the total population and you still come back to some realities about how much, and how often, people read for pleasure. How many books can you actually expect someone at work to have also read, a la Harry Potter? How short does that list become? But how reliably do you think you could talk blockbuster movies, popular TV, or World Series/Olympic/Playoff/Super Bowl sports at work or with strangers? This is a generalization, as I don't know where you work, but I would guess you could reliably strike up water cooler talk around those other things with more success. Put another way, sure, I know a lot of people in my own, reading and college educated demographic that have read Harry Potter. But I have never, when mixing with more diverse backgrounds at jobs or on public transit, in an elevator, etc., had someone ask me about whether I read that Harry Potter book the way that someone will ask me if I "saw the game" last night. You know what I mean? Even in the case of mega success books, reading for pleasure, especially as an adult, is still rarefied.
And for those few, successful franchises, sadly exponentially more books published each year can be named that find only a meager audience. Huge, outlier successes are fantastic, encouraging, and should be celebrated. But they are not the norm. They are outliers, and can't be depended on.
What I am saying, to try to get back to the point at hand, is that even if you lowered the price of Action Comics back to 10 cents is that it doesn't mean people will anticipate and want to read it each month the way they wanted to read a Harry Potter or Twilight book every few years. You can't build a business plan on it. And the outsized success of a few books does not a reading culture make. Unfortunately.
Do you not know anyone who has basically stopped buying comics because of the price? I know several and even the guys on the show talk about it all the time.
Again, it is a bummer, but personally I don't believe that if you necessarily make it available they will come. Especially as comics actually are pretty available. I can't think of many places- maybe outside a tiny newsstand- that would have a Harry Potter book and not have at least a comic or two. Certainly all the bookstores and libraries have them.
And remember-- even if Marvel and DC had the hypothetical 10 issues for $10 subscriptions to try to cut out the middle men and get right at their consumers... they would still need to FIND their consumers. And make their consumers aware that these subscriptions are available in sufficient enough numbers to sell the kind of volume of subscriptions that justifies that deeply discounted price. And messaging that out to present readers, and especially these would-be new readers, also costs money.
Do you wish to rephrase this, perhaps?
How about this? How about they try it. Theyve had digital out for a year and we havent seen them do it with one single title.
Now that's for single issues, admittedly not a "subscription". Still a buck an issue equates to 10 for $10.
Your subscription model also exists, but not from the Big 2. Not yet.
Shonen Jump Alpha arrives weekly to people's iPads or other digital devices. $30 a year gets you 48 issues (they have a couple skip weeks), and each issue clocks it at around 180 pages.
I'd imagine DC and Marvel are watching this to see how it pays off...if it pays off...for Viz Communications.
Plus there's been grumblings about getting the Marvel DCU online for mobile devices...and if that happens katie bar the door. $60 a year for unlimited access to their back catalog? Can't be beat.
I DO think it would benefit the Big 2 to try one or two subscriptions for a year at a discount, but I imagine retailers' backlash could be quite negative if it is a larger book (like Spider-Man or Batman). You never know how big or small the market is unless you try, but I do agree with others in the thread that making cheap digital comics in't going to make books sell two or three times what they are currently, it'll more than likely shift people who are already buying it from their LCS to buying it digitally.
2000ad.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/2000-ad-goes-day-and-date-digital-on-your-ipad/
I think sometimes as the fan- as the end user- we believe we have the vantage point to see what they all should do. And, hey, maybe a fan does have that answer. But how likely is it that the people who see all the real numbers, do this day in and day out, and depend on this business for their livelihood and health insurance just aren't thinking of something that one of us have thought of?
a) know that you like comics (not a lot of filks stumbling across comics in the grocery store while mom is shopping like when we were kids)
b) know where to find comics (actively seek out a specialty store or website) (what other product in the world actively and deliberately limits its exposure to potential buyers)
c) have the money to buy comics ($3.99 price point is not holding up to a cost/benefit anaylysis for say 15 minutes entertainment)
i think that for comics to survive in the 21st century they MUST get into more hands. people like comics, not just us geeks but people in general. Why do we make comics hard to find? Comic art and writing is arguably better that perhaps it has ever been. Unfortunatley most "civilians" concept of what a comic is is 40 years out of date. i hope that the digital options available on tablets like the i pad will increase comics exposuer in the general public and i respect the hell out of Mark Waid for putting his money where his mouth is (literally) to launch his Thrillbent project. Even without digital i think that putting comics by the impulse items next to the frakking tabloids would result in greater sales that those generated by the...what 1200? specialty shops across America. Why the hell are comics not in every Wal-Mart in the country?