dude that really sounds like you are just defending the status quo. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Something has got to change. In order to buy comics in 2012 you have to
a) know that you like comics (not a lot of filks stumbling across comics in the grocery store while mom is shopping like when we were kids)
b) know where to find comics (actively seek out a specialty store or website) (what other product in the world actively and deliberately limits its exposure to potential buyers)
c) have the money to buy comics ($3.99 price point is not holding up to a cost/benefit anaylysis for say 15 minutes entertainment)
i think that for comics to survive in the 21st century they MUST get into more hands. people like comics, not just us geeks but people in general. Why do we make comics hard to find? Comic art and writing is arguably better that perhaps it has ever been. Unfortunatley most "civilians" concept of what a comic is is 40 years out of date. i hope that the digital options available on tablets like the i pad will increase comics exposuer in the general public and i respect the hell out of Mark Waid for putting his money where his mouth is (literally) to launch his Thrillbent project. Even without digital i think that putting comics by the impulse items next to the frakking tabloids would result in greater sales that those generated by the...what 1200? specialty shops across America. Why the hell are comics not in every Wal-Mart in the country?
This ^^^
I'm still confused as to why Wal-Mart or Targets weren't carrying Batman or Avengers trades for the movie kicks, or why there aren't Walking Dead trades available. It makes no sense in our minds, but it has to in someone's.
I try my best to refuse to buy a four dollar book, and even then, it's hard as it's the four dollar books that I wanna read. This is as bad as double shipping, from my end. Money, money, money. I work as a selector for the library and get to write off my comics, and I still hate that I spend 40 bucks on 12 books at my LCS, and barely get 2 hours out of them if I'm lucky.
4 dollars for 15 minutes or less of entertainment? Stupid.
I get chewed out a lot by friends or people I meet because I am straight trade buying what I can't "use" for work.
My local Walmart did get in some of the Marvel Adventures Avengers digests and the Batman Vengence of Bane trade.
@David_D ; @dubbat138 I have never seen trades in the books area of big box stores, so I guess some of you cats are lucky. In the end, I feel like comic book readers are bulked into being "geeks" and niche, or, as a girl I was on a date with once said, "like those dorks from The Big Bang Theory". And no, we didn't have a second date.
@David_D ; @dubbat138 I have never seen trades in the books area of big box stores, so I guess some of you cats are lucky. In the end, I feel like comic book readers are bulked into being "geeks" and niche, or, as a girl I was on a date with once said, "like those dorks from The Big Bang Theory". And no, we didn't have a second date.
But, as a library selector, I would imagine you have seen access to comics increase in libraries, no? I have certainly seen library collections of comics grow over the years in the libraries around me. That may be as or even more important- if the topic is access- than being in big box stores.
@David_D ; @dubbat138 I have never seen trades in the books area of big box stores, so I guess some of you cats are lucky. In the end, I feel like comic book readers are bulked into being "geeks" and niche, or, as a girl I was on a date with once said, "like those dorks from The Big Bang Theory". And no, we didn't have a second date.
I was surprised to see the Walking Dead,Avengers and Batman trades in my local Walmart. Randomly in with the magazines there will be issues of Archie's Sonic comic.
DC has regular (weekly?) .99 sales on Comixology. Also, virtually all of the books (DC, Marvel, Image, etc.) on Comixology drop in price after a month (or few).
I like Comixology, especially their panel-by-panel reading, and I wish ALL of the publishers were there. I don't want to have a different app for Dark Horse, and on top of that it's an inferior app that they apparently don't have the resources to fix on a timely basis.
U2 could have their own app that just sold and played U2 songs, and it might be cheaper because they wouldn't have to pay iTunes or AmazonMP3. But it would also be a giant pain.
I want all my comics in one place on a reliable app.
DC has regular (weekly?) .99 sales on Comixology. Also, virtually all of the books (DC, Marvel, Image, etc.) on Comixology drop in price after a month (or few).
I like Comixology, especially their panel-by-panel reading, and I wish ALL of the publishers were there. I don't want to have a different app for Dark Horse, and on top of that it's an inferior app that they apparently don't have the resources to fix on a timely basis.
U2 could have their own app that just sold and played U2 songs, and it might be cheaper because they wouldn't have to pay iTunes or AmazonMP3. But it would also be a giant pain.
I want all my comics in one place on a reliable app.
Yeah, DC DOES have 99¢ sales. unfortunately not on the New 52 stuff. Thinking more on that, I guess it's too early for that anyway. It's only their first year.
And I do like that they go down to $2 after a month. I'm just spoiled by the sales :)
And I do like that they go down to $2 after a month. I'm just spoiled by the sales :)
I think we all are. I'm very much a "only suckers pay retail" when it comes to my funnybooks.
- I've been a loyal DCBS user for about five years now and hopefully will never look back. - When I go to my LCS (and we're blessed out here to have several) I have the option to go to the store that's super clean but has an unfriendly staff and never offers a decent discount, or the rundown closet where the owner always...ALWAYS...discounts 10-20% whether or not he knows you and will let you use his bathroom. Guess which one I buy from? :) - I buy regularly from the site which shall not be named. - I just jumped on the tanga deal to subscribe to books for like $1 an issue.
There's only two instances I pay what they're asking - Demon Knights and Legion I buy day and date digitally. I don't know that anyone is keeping track of it, but I'm hoping somewhere there's a statistician noting that someone out there wants these titles to continue (and neither of these are $4 books, but I do pay the full $3 for them, rather than wait).
So I don't know that any of us, for whatever reason, can be judged for looking for the least expensive outlet to get our hands on the books we love. At the same time, I don't know that we can simply expect publishers to meet the prices we're expecting to pay and still stay in business.
I think the perspective on this is a bit off. A lot of people on this thread want to compare comics to magazines. I don't get that comparison. Magazines are informational with large circulations to mostly casual readers. Comics are art. It takes much more time and creativity to put together a comic than a magazine article (not saying that isn't hard, just that comics are harder). Also, comics are niche, meaning a significantly lower circulation and fewer ad dollars. This leads to a somewhat shocking price point, but at the end of the day, I'm fairly comfortable with it. I think we should compare comics more to CDs. They are a work of art and have a higher price point because of the time effort and talent they take to produce. Although, at the end of the day, that's still not a particularly great comparison. Comics are their own medium and, as such, can't really be compared to others.
@elkinscs, CDs are dying and places to buy them are disappearing rapidly, so you may be right.
I buy gum and mints all the time in the checkout line, just because they are there. I have a feeling if I had to go to a low rent strip mall to the Gum Store to buy it for $5.00, that would be the end for me and gum. Many, many of the kids that routinely bought or were given comics when I was a kid did not care about them that much. They just happened to be there wherever you went. I don't know that we're ever going back to that, but the LCS is not going to cut it for the long haul. I hope digital is the answer, and that the drugstore spinner rack is Amazon or the iPad.
I think the perspective on this is a bit off. A lot of people on this thread want to compare comics to magazines. I don't get that comparison. Magazines are informational with large circulations to mostly casual readers. Comics are art. It takes much more time and creativity to put together a comic than a magazine article (not saying that isn't hard, just that comics are harder). Also, comics are niche, meaning a significantly lower circulation and fewer ad dollars. This leads to a somewhat shocking price point, but at the end of the day, I'm fairly comfortable with it. I think we should compare comics more to CDs. They are a work of art and have a higher price point because of the time effort and talent they take to produce. Although, at the end of the day, that's still not a particularly great comparison. Comics are their own medium and, as such, can't really be compared to others.
The major reason for the comparison between comics and magazines is that they have common origins, and a lot of them were published by the same printers/publishers when the comic book industry began. And comics weren't originally considered a niche market (beyond the fact that they were aimed entirely for kids); like magazines, they were intended for the mass market. And they both originally had the same price point.
And do you really think there's no art to putting together a magazine? I haven't worked for any magazine publisher, per se, but I've just enough experience in working production to know and understand there's a great deal more work and creativity involved in putting together a magazine than one might assume. It's certainly more than just turning in copy for a feature.
And do you really think there's no art to putting together a magazine? I haven't worked for any magazine publisher, per se, but I've just enough experience in working production to know and understand there's a great deal more work and creativity involved in putting together a magazine than one might assume. It's certainly more than just turning in copy for a feature.
I've often told my design students that you can invest in this $60-80 book on design which will show you the work of many creators. Or you can buy a $10-20 subscription to Wired and see the cutting edge work some of Madison Aves. best are putting out every month.
It seemed that when I was kid and first getting into comics,the mid to late 70s,pretty much every store and gas station had a spinner rack. Back then pretty much every boy I knew had at least a few comics. But now besides the Archie Digests I rarely see any comics,besides trades of stuff that has a movie out,outside of a comic shop or bookstore. My cousin's two sons love comics. But the only time they get any is when I give them some,or their mom or I take them to the one comic shop on the MS gulf coast. Last trip down to Biloxi I showed her oldest son where in his local library the comic book trades are. Talking to him last week he told me he had checked out a hardcover that collected the early Elfquest stuff.
@Chuck_Melville: There is definitely an art to creating a magazine, but the people who create them are not themselves artists, creatives, "the talent" if you will. A large part of the reason comics are so expensive is because Geoff Johns, Jim Lee, Brian Bendis, etc. are being paid to make them. The people who make magazines, while good at what they do, are largely replaceable, but comic artists and writers give a book direction and tone that is what sells the book. Because magazines are largely informational, the content can be produced by a larger pool of people.
@BlackUmbrella: I don't think digital is the answer. While they may be similar as a medium in terms of how they are produced, there are key differences. The reason music is so successful digitally is because the experience is the same while slightly cheaper and more convenient. The experience of a digital comic is not the same as holding a floppy in your hand so I don't feel that digital will replace comics, but simply supplement and on some level subsidize print comics. Also, I would venture to say that the infrastructure of the comic shop and the surrounding community creates a support network that the small record shop simply didn't have. Not being in grocery stores, convenience stores, etc. may have created higher price points with lower circulation, but it's also a big reason why you see such creative diversity and quality story-telling in the modern comic; publishers are not going after mass appeal for the most part, they are turning out quality, if expensive, comics that appeal to a demanding niche audience. The quality of the comics I'm getting (at least relative to the 90's) is why I am comfortable with the price.
I've often told my design students that you can invest in this $60-80 book on design which will show you the work of many creators. Or you can buy a $10-20 subscription to Wired and see the cutting edge work some of Madison Aves. best are putting out every month.
Folks who only look at the cutting edge, without having learned the fundamentals in that textbook tend to design a lot of ugly-ass, unreadable junk.*
@Chuck_Melville: There is definitely an art to creating a magazine, but the people who create them are not themselves artists, creatives, "the talent" if you will. ...
The people who make magazines, while good at what they do, are largely replaceable
Speaking as one of those replaceable, non-artist, non-creative, non-talent people, I'd like to give you a heartfelt one-finger salute.
@Chuck_Melville: There is definitely an art to creating a magazine, but the people who create them are not themselves artists, creatives, "the talent" if you will. ...
The people who make magazines, while good at what they do, are largely replaceable
Speaking as one of those replaceable, non-artist, non-creative, non-talent people, I'd like to give you a heartfelt one-finger salute.
I took that phrase to mean more of "no one knows if you are replaced," since a lot of people in magazines aren't credited like they are in comics, but I could have misread it.
I think the perspective on this is a bit off. A lot of people on this thread want to compare comics to magazines. I don't get that comparison. Magazines are informational with large circulations to mostly casual readers. Comics are art. It takes much more time and creativity to put together a comic than a magazine article (not saying that isn't hard, just that comics are harder). Also, comics are niche, meaning a significantly lower circulation and fewer ad dollars. This leads to a somewhat shocking price point, but at the end of the day, I'm fairly comfortable with it. I think we should compare comics more to CDs. They are a work of art and have a higher price point because of the time effort and talent they take to produce. Although, at the end of the day, that's still not a particularly great comparison. Comics are their own medium and, as such, can't really be compared to others.
The major reason for the comparison between comics and magazines is that they have common origins, and a lot of them were published by the same printers/publishers when the comic book industry began. And comics weren't originally considered a niche market (beyond the fact that they were aimed entirely for kids); like magazines, they were intended for the mass market. And they both originally had the same price point.
And do you really think there's no art to putting together a magazine? I haven't worked for any magazine publisher, per se, but I've just enough experience in working production to know and understand there's a great deal more work and creativity involved in putting together a magazine than one might assume. It's certainly more than just turning in copy for a feature.
As someone who made this magazine comparison before, I'll defend it now. I said it because there are thousands of magazines produced, just like there are thousands of comics, or at least hundreds. They both need: art, writers, editors, publishers, they appear in a similar format although obviously magazines are much longer, and they are sold in similar ways (in stores and via subscriptions).
Magazines aren't just writers writing. Depending on the subject the writers might have to travel and might have to put in a week or several weeks or months of work into one featured story. They also demand photographers, which yea... digital pictures are easier to take 10,000 of today than they were 20 years ago. But again, the photographer has to travel with all their equipment, possibly take thousands of photographs over several days, weeks, or months, and then choose t
@Chuck_Melville: There is definitely an art to creating a magazine, but the people who create them are not themselves artists, creatives, "the talent" if you will. ...
The people who make magazines, while good at what they do, are largely replaceable
Speaking as one of those replaceable, non-artist, non-creative, non-talent people, I'd like to give you a heartfelt one-finger salute.
I took that phrase to mean more of "no one knows if you are replaced," since a lot of people in magazines aren't credited like they are in comics, but I could have misread it.
Even if that is what was meant, c'mon. For instance, I've subscribed to Motor Trend for many years. If their entire photography staff left and was replaced, I might not notice as long as they hired a good group to replace them. But many, many comics readers might not notice if the inker or colorist changed either unless there was a drastic change in quality.
I've read thousands of comics and I think I could only name and recognize one or two inkers or colorists.
The difference is not that comics content is necessarily harder to create or supply than magazine content. The difference is that there is less demand for the content they create. And that lack of demand, relative to many magazines, as well as the difference in advertiser interest we have already discussed, leads to those of us demanding a less in demand thing having to pay a premium for it. Talent costs do factor in, but not in the way that is being suggested.
It is not that someone that can create a comics page- particularly on the art side- is objectively more valuable than someone that can create a magazine page. But the former takes a lot longer than the latter. So to be able to get a talented professional to make the commitment and do that work is going to cost. And, again, because there are less of us to share that cost, and less interest in our eyeballs from advertisers, MORE of that cost is going to be carried by us readers.
And, yes, I do get that we as comics fans get to know talent by name, and seek them out that way, in ways that we don't necessarily seek out production people in magazines. But that, again, speaks to the fact that we are a smaller market that might be paying more attention to these items than a general audience does to what is considered a general interest item (Though some comparisons could be made to popular newspaper and magazine columnists or feature writers-- certainly a lot of issues of New York magazine and The New Yorker will have certain contributors names on the cover in big letters as a selling point). I get that idea. But I don't agree with the premise that, just because an end user doesn't know a contributor or behind the scenes person BY NAME means that person's skill set, talent, and contribution is therefore replaceable.
And, at the end of the day, I think the comics to magazine comparison (especially if you are comparing to high circulation, general interest magazines rather than a higher prices specialty one) are just too apple and orange to be of use. It is like the iTunes to Comixology comparisons. There is just too much different there to really be able to gain much by comparing them.
Well, I'm not going to go over it all again. I was more responding to recent comments that made it seem like putting together several hundred page magazines was easy. Maybe it takes a day, or two or three to create a comics page and maybe an "hour" to physically write a page of copy for a magazine, but depending on what the content of the magazine is it may have taken days or weeks to get that content.
Anyway, I also disagree with your comments saying that comics distribution is soooo low. The top three comics have what? 300k buyers every month? Forbes magazine (which I also happen to read after getting a gift subscription last Christmas) has 900k readers per issue. Now, thats three times more. But its not some incredibly huge number. And again, it has 10x the content and probably 100x the number of ads. And you get 1 year for $10. And thats just an example. Forbes is in the top 100 of magazines. There are many hundreds more with much smaller readership that still have 10x the content and still have very good prices.
Well, I'm not going to go over it all again. I was more responding to recent comments that made it seem like putting together several hundred page magazines was easy. Maybe it takes a day, or two or three to create a comics page and maybe an "hour" to physically write a page of copy for a magazine, but depending on what the content of the magazine is it may have taken days or weeks to get that content.
Anyway, I also disagree with your comments saying that comics distribution is soooo low. The top three comics have what? 300k buyers every month? Forbes magazine (which I also happen to read after getting a gift subscription last Christmas) has 900k readers per issue. Now, thats three times more. But its not some incredibly huge number. And again, it has 10x the content and probably 100x the number of ads. And you get 1 year for $10. And thats just an example. Forbes is in the top 100 of magazines. There are many hundreds more with much smaller readership that still have 10x the content and still have very good prices.
Again-- when you are an advertiser, it is not just about how many eyeballs. It is about WHICH eyeballs, and are they the ones that are harder to reach. It may be that the demographic picture of a reader that Forbes can present to their advertisers is more attractive. And a lot of specialized publications (e.g. a financial magazine) benefit from being able to appeal to a very specific kind of advertisers (e.g. those selling consumer investment products), and in some cases they have relationships with advertisers that go back decades.
Simply put- the comparisons between comics are magazines are apple:orange.
@Chuck_Melville: There is definitely an art to creating a magazine, but the people who create them are not themselves artists, creatives, "the talent" if you will. ...
The people who make magazines, while good at what they do, are largely replaceable
Speaking as one of those replaceable, non-artist, non-creative, non-talent people, I'd like to give you a heartfelt one-finger salute.
I took that phrase to mean more of "no one knows if you are replaced," since a lot of people in magazines aren't credited like they are in comics, but I could have misread it.
I know when I've been replaced. :((
It's like Bobcat said, "I lost my job. Well, I didn't lose it. I mean I know where it is. But when I go there, there's some other guy doing it."
Hell, another person who works there once lost an argument with a woman who was convinced comic books weren't even made anymore. He works at a damn store and he lost the argument. It was kind of funny now that I think about it.
I want to hear more about that. Please explain or point me to where I can hear that. Thanks.
@luckymustard, if you want to hear the latest of this group talking about how certain people feel about comics, listen to their latest episode, Super-Fly Podcast #114 on the Panel on Pages Network which you can find on iTunes.
The comics/magazines comparison is not apples to oranges, it’s more like tangerines to oranges. They are much more alike than they are different.
And, yeah, Stewart, I didn’t lose my newspaper job, either. It just moved to another city without me. Luckily, I still have my magazine job, as I can be anywhere to do it. In fact, I had to design the last issue while on my week-long beach “vacation” thanks to it getting to me so close to the deadline. 80 pages in six days—six ten-hour days.
The only reason I might agree that we magazine production people are “replaceable” is because there are so many quality editors and designers that are either unemployed or, like me, underemployed at the moment. And as for circulation, the magazine I design sells well below DC’s cancellation line, and we only sold three quarter-page ads last issue. There are hundreds of magazines that sell fewer copies than Batman or JLA does.
Well, I'm not going to go over it all again. I was more responding to recent comments that made it seem like putting together several hundred page magazines was easy. Maybe it takes a day, or two or three to create a comics page and maybe an "hour" to physically write a page of copy for a magazine, but depending on what the content of the magazine is it may have taken days or weeks to get that content.
Anyway, I also disagree with your comments saying that comics distribution is soooo low. The top three comics have what? 300k buyers every month? Forbes magazine (which I also happen to read after getting a gift subscription last Christmas) has 900k readers per issue. Now, thats three times more. But its not some incredibly huge number. And again, it has 10x the content and probably 100x the number of ads. And you get 1 year for $10. And thats just an example. Forbes is in the top 100 of magazines. There are many hundreds more with much smaller readership that still have 10x the content and still have very good prices.
Again-- when you are an advertiser, it is not just about how many eyeballs. It is about WHICH eyeballs, and are they the ones that are harder to reach. It may be that the demographic picture of a reader that Forbes can present to their advertisers is more attractive. And a lot of specialized publications (e.g. a financial magazine) benefit from being able to appeal to a very specific kind of advertisers (e.g. those selling consumer investment products), and in some cases they have relationships with advertisers that go back decades.
Simply put- the comparisons between comics are magazines are apple:orange.
We're just going to have to disagree on this. I only used Forbes as an example because I read it. And btw, how specialized can it be if I'm reading it AND I read comics? I'm poor. Their advertising is not all investment products, its the same type of stuff you see on TV and every other magazine.
Your argument seems to be this: if it made business sense for them to do it, they would do it.
I'm sort of assuming they actually don't know what they're doing. Infact, I think that the comic publishers have a belief that the readers would rebel if there more than a couple non-comics related ads in the books and thats why they don't put them in there.
The comics/magazines comparison is not apples to oranges, it’s more like tangerines to oranges. They are much more alike than they are different.
Fair enough. But certainly not apples to apples. Especially in the context that they keep getting brought up in this conversation. Which is to say relative cost per page and how to appeal to advertisers.
@Chuck_Melville: There is definitely an art to creating a magazine, but the people who create them are not themselves artists, creatives, "the talent" if you will. ...
The people who make magazines, while good at what they do, are largely replaceable
Speaking as one of those replaceable, non-artist, non-creative, non-talent people, I'd like to give you a heartfelt one-finger salute.
I took that phrase to mean more of "no one knows if you are replaced," since a lot of people in magazines aren't credited like they are in comics, but I could have misread it.
I know when I've been replaced. :((
It's like Bobcat said, "I lost my job. Well, I didn't lose it. I mean I know where it is. But when I go there, there's some other guy doing it."
Man, this thread is turning into a bummer. I didn't say you don't know you've been replaced. I'm saying when I open up a magazine there isn't a list of every person who worked on the book (like the creators in comics). If you worked on the layout of a magazine there usually aren't by lines or anything unless it's the writer or the photographer, so if someone else does it next month I probably won't know (unless you have a distinct style I can pick out). I'm not saying everyone is replaceable and I don't care about your well being. I was just trying to calm everyone down, I guess I 'll just bow out of this conversation and let everyone duke it out since that is what people want to.
It's like Bobcat said, "I lost my job. Well, I didn't lose it. I mean I know where it is. But when I go there, there's some other guy doing it."
Man, this thread is turning into a bummer. I didn't say you don't know you've been replaced. I'm saying when I open up a magazine there isn't a list of every person who worked on the book (like the creators in comics). If you worked on the layout of a magazine there usually aren't by lines or anything unless it's the writer or the photographer, so if someone else does it next month I probably won't know (unless you have a distinct style I can pick out). I'm not saying everyone is replaceable and I don't care about your well being. I was just trying to calm everyone down, I guess I 'll just bow out of this conversation and let everyone duke it out since that is what people want to.
Sorry for the bummification. I was trying to lighten it back up.
Comments
My local Walmart did get in some of the Marvel Adventures Avengers digests and the Batman Vengence of Bane trade.
I like Comixology, especially their panel-by-panel reading, and I wish ALL of the publishers were there. I don't want to have a different app for Dark Horse, and on top of that it's an inferior app that they apparently don't have the resources to fix on a timely basis.
U2 could have their own app that just sold and played U2 songs, and it might be cheaper because they wouldn't have to pay iTunes or AmazonMP3. But it would also be a giant pain.
I want all my comics in one place on a reliable app.
And I do like that they go down to $2 after a month. I'm just spoiled by the sales :)
- I've been a loyal DCBS user for about five years now and hopefully will never look back.
- When I go to my LCS (and we're blessed out here to have several) I have the option to go to the store that's super clean but has an unfriendly staff and never offers a decent discount, or the rundown closet where the owner always...ALWAYS...discounts 10-20% whether or not he knows you and will let you use his bathroom. Guess which one I buy from? :)
- I buy regularly from the site which shall not be named.
- I just jumped on the tanga deal to subscribe to books for like $1 an issue.
There's only two instances I pay what they're asking - Demon Knights and Legion I buy day and date digitally. I don't know that anyone is keeping track of it, but I'm hoping somewhere there's a statistician noting that someone out there wants these titles to continue (and neither of these are $4 books, but I do pay the full $3 for them, rather than wait).
So I don't know that any of us, for whatever reason, can be judged for looking for the least expensive outlet to get our hands on the books we love. At the same time, I don't know that we can simply expect publishers to meet the prices we're expecting to pay and still stay in business.
How do you think they got him to be a moderator?
I buy gum and mints all the time in the checkout line, just because they are there. I have a feeling if I had to go to a low rent strip mall to the Gum Store to buy it for $5.00, that would be the end for me and gum. Many, many of the kids that routinely bought or were given comics when I was a kid did not care about them that much. They just happened to be there wherever you went. I don't know that we're ever going back to that, but the LCS is not going to cut it for the long haul. I hope digital is the answer, and that the drugstore spinner rack is Amazon or the iPad.
And do you really think there's no art to putting together a magazine? I haven't worked for any magazine publisher, per se, but I've just enough experience in working production to know and understand there's a great deal more work and creativity involved in putting together a magazine than one might assume. It's certainly more than just turning in copy for a feature.
@BlackUmbrella: I don't think digital is the answer. While they may be similar as a medium in terms of how they are produced, there are key differences. The reason music is so successful digitally is because the experience is the same while slightly cheaper and more convenient. The experience of a digital comic is not the same as holding a floppy in your hand so I don't feel that digital will replace comics, but simply supplement and on some level subsidize print comics. Also, I would venture to say that the infrastructure of the comic shop and the surrounding community creates a support network that the small record shop simply didn't have. Not being in grocery stores, convenience stores, etc. may have created higher price points with lower circulation, but it's also a big reason why you see such creative diversity and quality story-telling in the modern comic; publishers are not going after mass appeal for the most part, they are turning out quality, if expensive, comics that appeal to a demanding niche audience. The quality of the comics I'm getting (at least relative to the 90's) is why I am comfortable with the price.
*Oh look, Stewart has YET ANOTHER high horse!
Magazines aren't just writers writing. Depending on the subject the writers might have to travel and might have to put in a week or several weeks or months of work into one featured story. They also demand photographers, which yea... digital pictures are easier to take 10,000 of today than they were 20 years ago. But again, the photographer has to travel with all their equipment, possibly take thousands of photographs over several days, weeks, or months, and then choose t
I've read thousands of comics and I think I could only name and recognize one or two inkers or colorists.
The difference is not that comics content is necessarily harder to create or supply than magazine content. The difference is that there is less demand for the content they create. And that lack of demand, relative to many magazines, as well as the difference in advertiser interest we have already discussed, leads to those of us demanding a less in demand thing having to pay a premium for it. Talent costs do factor in, but not in the way that is being suggested.
It is not that someone that can create a comics page- particularly on the art side- is objectively more valuable than someone that can create a magazine page. But the former takes a lot longer than the latter. So to be able to get a talented professional to make the commitment and do that work is going to cost. And, again, because there are less of us to share that cost, and less interest in our eyeballs from advertisers, MORE of that cost is going to be carried by us readers.
And, yes, I do get that we as comics fans get to know talent by name, and seek them out that way, in ways that we don't necessarily seek out production people in magazines. But that, again, speaks to the fact that we are a smaller market that might be paying more attention to these items than a general audience does to what is considered a general interest item (Though some comparisons could be made to popular newspaper and magazine columnists or feature writers-- certainly a lot of issues of New York magazine and The New Yorker will have certain contributors names on the cover in big letters as a selling point). I get that idea. But I don't agree with the premise that, just because an end user doesn't know a contributor or behind the scenes person BY NAME means that person's skill set, talent, and contribution is therefore replaceable.
And, at the end of the day, I think the comics to magazine comparison (especially if you are comparing to high circulation, general interest magazines rather than a higher prices specialty one) are just too apple and orange to be of use. It is like the iTunes to Comixology comparisons. There is just too much different there to really be able to gain much by comparing them.
Anyway, I also disagree with your comments saying that comics distribution is soooo low. The top three comics have what? 300k buyers every month? Forbes magazine (which I also happen to read after getting a gift subscription last Christmas) has 900k readers per issue. Now, thats three times more. But its not some incredibly huge number. And again, it has 10x the content and probably 100x the number of ads. And you get 1 year for $10. And thats just an example. Forbes is in the top 100 of magazines. There are many hundreds more with much smaller readership that still have 10x the content and still have very good prices.
Simply put- the comparisons between comics are magazines are apple:orange.
It's like Bobcat said, "I lost my job. Well, I didn't lose it. I mean I know where it is. But when I go there, there's some other guy doing it."
And, yeah, Stewart, I didn’t lose my newspaper job, either. It just moved to another city without me. Luckily, I still have my magazine job, as I can be anywhere to do it. In fact, I had to design the last issue while on my week-long beach “vacation” thanks to it getting to me so close to the deadline. 80 pages in six days—six ten-hour days.
The only reason I might agree that we magazine production people are “replaceable” is because there are so many quality editors and designers that are either unemployed or, like me, underemployed at the moment. And as for circulation, the magazine I design sells well below DC’s cancellation line, and we only sold three quarter-page ads last issue. There are hundreds of magazines that sell fewer copies than Batman or JLA does.
Your argument seems to be this: if it made business sense for them to do it, they would do it.
I'm sort of assuming they actually don't know what they're doing. Infact, I think that the comic publishers have a belief that the readers would rebel if there more than a couple non-comics related ads in the books and thats why they don't put them in there.
Sorry for the bummification. I was trying to lighten it back up.